EC tuner brake

[Quickoz]

This is not great information.

The only thing you really do at distances where your ES comes into play is that you start positively compensating. But this only works at the specific distance. Which is why you see 1k F class guys tuning at 1k yds. They are positively compensating for their ES.

Tuning at 100, ES had zero influence and therefore you are making the “cone” as small as possible for all ranges.

The reason your stuff went to crap from 400 to 800 is either A: your ES was large enough that you positively compensated for 400m and then it went back to normal shooting at 800m or B: the bullets you used were inconsistent from bullet to bullet. C: shooter error.

If your ES was acceptable and your bullets are consistent, it’s literally impossible for your groups to go from good at 400m to shit at 800m without the problem being the shooter.


This is a big issue. People don’t understand exactly what’s going on. They see something like “it fell apart from 400 to 800” without understanding what could actually fall apart.

Dthomass,

Well, my ES was sub 20s, labradar was on the whole time. I was using Bergers which I had sorted into 2 thou lots for OAL. And my gun handling was good and felt no bad shots. When I say went to shit, I'm talking going from sub 1/2moa vertical to 1moa which is enough to loose points to vertical.

When you do the tuner test at 100, your positively compensating at 100, not all the way to 1000yds or beyond. The slowest and fastest bullet which your trying to compensate for, converge at 100 and then keep going on their trajectories which sees them open up again past that. Its demonstrated well on Varmintal's site.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen people tune at short range and then wonder whats happening at the longs and their guns open up with bad vertical.

I do have a grasp on whats going on and what can fall apart. I do all my tuning at 800m. Im a firm believer in if your gonna shoot long range, test at long range. If your only trying to shoot 1-2MOA targets, 100 is probably fine. But if you want consistant tight vertical all the way, better off doing it where it matters most.

We can agree to disagree and I'm fine with that too. Its what makes this sport fun. Everyone has their own ideas and it comes down to who wins at the end of the day.

 

[Snuby642]

It's fun watching some positions on an item switch back and forth on a thread.

Is Fauci on here?

 

[Quickoz]

As I learned from @Dthomas3523 there's BR and F-class precision and then there’s PRS-level precision. A guy can burn a lot of time and powder chasing quarter moa when we don’t need it.

I will agree that PRS guys dont need 1/4MOA precision from their rifles that us F-Class guys want/need. But you will increase your hit probability if your close to it. But I dont agree you burn up alot of extra time chasing it if you understand what your cartridge wants to be given to work well from the start.

I took my latest 7SAUM barrel to the range. Get wind zero at 25m. Next to 800m and gun didnt shoot much worse then 150mm groups. Best tuner setting had it shooting 60mm vertical and 85mm groups. The ES was stable. Its my 3rd barrel in 12months. All same cartridge, same bullet, powder, reamer even. If you keep it simple, you use good components like Bergers and Hodgen Powders like H4350, etc. You give yourself the upper hand. Keeping it simple means you can give the barrel what it wants from the get go pretty reliably and tune it faster and save time shooting matches.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It's fun watching some positions on an item switch back and forth on a thread.

Is Fauci on here?

Its because your reading comprehension is terrible.

You apparently cannot read into context.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Dthomass,

Well, my ES was sub 20s, labradar was on the whole time. I was using Bergers which I had sorted into 2 thou lots for OAL. And my gun handling was good and felt no bad shots. When I say went to shit, I'm talking going from sub 1/2moa vertical to 1moa which is enough to loose points to vertical.

When you do the tuner test at 100, your positively compensating at 100, not all the way to 1000yds or beyond. The slowest and fastest bullet which your trying to compensate for, converge at 100 and then keep going on their trajectories which sees them open up again past that. Its demonstrated well on Varmintal's site.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen people tune at short range and then wonder whats happening at the longs and their guns open up with bad vertical.

I do have a grasp on whats going on and what can fall apart. I do all my tuning at 800m. Im a firm believer in if your gonna shoot long range, test at long range. If your only trying to shoot 1-2MOA targets, 100 is probably fine. But if you want consistant tight vertical all the way, better off doing it where it matters most.

We can agree to disagree and I'm fine with that too. Its what makes this sport fun. Everyone has their own ideas and it comes down to who wins at the end of the day.

You are not positively compensating at 100yds. The distance is too close for the difference when the bullet leaves barrel to have any affect. Positive compensation requires distance for MV to have an effect.

You seriously have no clue what’s actually happening. What you’ve lost count of is people who have no idea why their loads “fall apart.”

Many of the US F Class championship team do their load development at 100yds. I’m assuming they know what they are doing.

 

[Quickoz]

You are not positively compensating at 100yds. The distance is too close for the difference when the bullet leaves barrel to have any affect.

You seriously have no clue what’s actually happening. What you’ve lost count of is people who have no idea why their loads “fall apart.”

Many of the US F Class championship team do their load development at 100yds. I’m assuming they know what they are doing.

Ok, and they have been beaten in the last 2 world champs by a team from Australia.......who I know DONT test at 100yds. For sure.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It’s also very simple.

If your ES is smaller than the group size you shot and your trust the bullets are performing properly, guess what......

The shooter fell apart. Not the load.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Ok, and they have been beaten in the last 2 world champs by a team from Australia.......who I know DONT test at 100yds. For sure.

Yes, which means both work. And neither is better. Meaning your claims are bullshit as to luck and such. And one being better than the other.

I’m not saying you can’t test at 800. I’m saying you don’t get any special data. What you can testing at distance is screw things up with positive compensation unless you are testing at the only distance you plan on shooting.

 

[Quickoz]

A

Yes, which means both work. And neither is better. Meaning your claims are bullshit as to luck and such. And one being better than the other.

I’m not saying you can’t test at 800. I’m saying you don’t get any special data. What you can testing at distance is screw things up with positive compensation unless you are testing at the only distance you plan on shooting.

As I said mate. We will agree to disagree. Im not going to attack you for what you believe.

We both have different understandings of what is and how positive compensation is applied.

You also have no idea how good or bad a shooter I am so you cant say whether or not the shooter fell apart.

As I have said all along. This is my opinion. Im just trying to help guys out and get the best from their gear to give them the best chance of performing.

 

[BU37377]

Erik gives an update:

 

[kthomas]

Erik gives an update:

Props to Erik for making the leap for producing his own muzzle brakes/tuners.

Sucks that he is running into so many issues with getting setup to do so, but not surprised with all the bureaucracy involved these days. I respect and admire his ambition and tenacity.

Will be cool to see what else he comes up, now that he is setting up his own machine shop. I respect the hell out of that.

 

[Snuby642]

No problem I will wait for yours.

 

[Dthomas3523]

A

As I said mate. We will agree to disagree. Im not going to attack you for what you believe.

We both have different understandings of what is and how positive compensation is applied.

You also have no idea how good or bad a shooter I am so you cant say whether or not the shooter fell apart.

As I have said all along. This is my opinion. Im just trying to help guys out and get the best from their gear to give them the best chance of performing.

I can absolutely say the shooter fell apart if your statements that your ES was 20 and your bullets were consistent......are indeed true.

There’s literally nothing else it can be at that point. There is no magic fairy that comes by and pushes your bullet off it’s flight path,

Its velocity, BC, or the shooter.

Again, you have apparently zero understanding how this works if you think I need to know your skill level.

 

[Dthomas3523]

And your opinion is going to push guys down the wrong path.

Loads don’t just fall apart if the velocity and bullets are performing properly.

 

[Snuby642]

Interesting.
I think @Quickoz has a good grasp of the situation.

Nice to get some insite from down under.

 

[Quickoz]

I can absolutely say the shooter fell apart if your statements that your ES was 20 and your bullets were consistent......are indeed true.

There’s literally nothing else it can be at that point. There is no magic fairy that comes by and pushes your bullet off it’s flight path,

Its velocity, BC, or the shooter.

Again, you have apparently zero understanding how this works if you think I need to know your skill level.

Dthomas,

It can happen when the bullet exit timing is off. Bullets can be perfect, velocity and ES good and exit timing can have the bullets exiting at the top of the upswing or on the downswing of the barrels whip instead of at the bottom of the upswing which is where you would want it. Thats why we adjust seating depth or Tuner position, to get the exit timing in the correct spot so the faster bullets exit lower then the slower bullets.

I know this because I have intentionally done it in testing at long range. The exit timing being wrong isnt as pronouced at shorter range as you will have way less vertical dispersion to see on target as it is. Doing it at longer ranges allows one to see more difference in different settings to get closer to the correct tuner setting.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Interesting.
I think @Quickoz has a good grasp of the situation.

Nice to get some insite from down under.

Then please, will one of you two please explain to us all:

If you have an acceptable ES
and
Your bullet BC is consistent

Tell us all how a load shoots fine at 400 and not at 800.

Make sure to CC Bryan Litz, Erik Cortina, and every ballistic software manufacturer on the planet.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Dthomas,

It can happen when the bullet exit timing is off. Bullets can be perfect, velocity and ES good and exit timing can have the bullets exiting at the top of the upswing or on the downswing of the barrels whip instead of at the bottom of the upswing which is where you would want it. Thats why we adjust seating depth or Tuner position, to get the exit timing in the correct spot so the faster bullets exit lower then the slower bullets.

I know this because I have intentionally done it in testing at long range. The exit timing being wrong isnt as pronouced at shorter range as you will have way less vertical dispersion to see on target as it is. Doing it at longer ranges allows one to see more difference in different settings to get closer to the correct tuner setting.

This only happens when you are positively compensated at a range where velocity will effect the arc.

IE, you cannot have a .25moa rifle at 100yds that will not shoot .25moa at 1000yds if the MV and BC is consistent enough to shoot .25moa.

It’s impossible.

The only thing that is possible is it shooting a smaller group at *ONE* distance that it is positively compensated for.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Your incorrect assumption that you can tell something at longer distance that you can’t tell at shorter has you positively compensating for your given testing range.

This leads your other ranges giving the appearance it doesn’t perform as well because as stated, you have positively compensated the exit timing for that given range.

The load doesn’t shoot any better or worse at the longer range. It shoots “normal” where in the positively compensated range shoots “better” because you have the exit timing lined up.

You’re confusing positive compensation for an optimal load development method.

 

[Snuby642]

If you want me to repond to things I said I will.

But you ask me to respond to anothers post that I didn't offer opinion on in particular ?

Not clear on your question.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If you want me to repond to things I said I will.

But you ask me to respond to anothers post that I didn't offer opinion on in particular ?

Not clear on your question.

You said he has a good grasp, so defend his position.

So either post something significant or quit trolling. You have a habit of getting chapped ass and not contributing because you put out bad info and got called on it.

 

[Quickoz]

Yes, but positively compensating at longer ranges means that the further you go out, the closer the fast and slow bullets get in trajectory due to the positive compensation. So theoretically, the rifle shoots the worst its going to at short range and gets better the further you shoot. Which to my thinking is good as we compete at long ranges and two, the size of the target, especially at short range doesnt cause an issue by and large for this to be a problem.

Ideally, and if someone had the time and money, you would have a tuner setting for every range and every enviromental condition you would shoot. But that isnt practical either.

My point is, that if you compete at long ranges, not 100. So why do this testing at 100 when you dont compete at that range. This is my point all along.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yes, but positively compensating at longer ranges means that the further you go out, the closer the fast and slow bullets get in trajectory due to the positive compensation. So theoretically, the rifle shoots the worst its going to at short range and gets better the further you shoot. Which to my thinking is good as we compete at long ranges and two, the size of the target, especially at short range doesnt cause an issue by and large for this to be a problem.

Ideally, and if someone had the time and money, you would have a tuner setting for every range and every enviromental condition you would shoot. But that isnt practical either.

My point is, that if you compete at long ranges, not 100. So why do this testing at 100 when you dont compete at that range. This is my point all along.

That’s not how it works at all.

Your muzzle exit timing isn’t linear.

 

[Quickoz]

Barrel Tuner Analysis -- FEA Dynamic Analysis of Esten's Rifle with/without a Tuner.

This website is very good at modelling and explaining this stuff. Scroll down the bottom and read the long range tune paragraph. It explains what I'm saying with the help of trajectory graph and calculated drop.

 

[Dthomas3523]

100% serious.

Bryan Litz will pay you quite the reward if you can show him a rifle setup that shoots worse at closer distances (plural) than it does further.

This challenge has been public for quite some time. If you truly believe this, it should be easy to prove.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Barrel Tuner Analysis -- FEA Dynamic Analysis of Esten's Rifle with/without a Tuner.

This website is very good at modelling and explaining this stuff. Scroll down the bottom and read the long range tune paragraph. It explains what I'm saying with the help of trajectory graph and calculated drop.

You have again misunderstood what you’re reading.

He is talking specific distance. He’s not saying you can tune for 600 *and* 1000.

He’s saying you won’t be optimally in tune for 600 yds if you tune at 100.

 

[Quickoz]

You have again misunderstood what you’re reading.

He is talking specific distance. He’s not saying you can tune for 600 *and* 1000.

He’s saying you won’t be optimally in tune for 600 yds if you tune at 100.

Yes but if you tune further out, you bring the bullets in closer together the further out you shoot. So by testing at longer ranges, you improve your vertical. Where as testing at 100 it makes it worse the further you go. Thats what Im saying.

Look at the trend trend in the table. Distance increases, vertical decreases if you tune for zero vertical at long range.

 

[Snuby642]

You mean things that can happen to a load between 400 and 800 yards.

First one comes to mind is bullet shape, fb or bt, secant, hybrid or tangent.
Then lets see velocity drop twist rate .

You telling me you never had a load go to hell at longer ranges?

And if it meets with approval I have two pre scheduled events this evening.
A TARRC weekly meeting at 8pm and a NWS skywarn meeting at 8:30-9 pm.
Both events have an on air check in time and attendance is logged.
Connecting 40 repeaters accross North Texas is kind of an intetesting thing.

So I'm ditching the rest of your class this evening at that time., huge appology.

I'm about out of battery on my trolling motor anyway.
73's

 

[BFuller]

Barrel Tuner Analysis -- FEA Dynamic Analysis of Esten's Rifle with/without a Tuner.

This website is very good at modelling and explaining this stuff. Scroll down the bottom and read the long range tune paragraph. It explains what I'm saying with the help of trajectory graph and calculated drop.

It's an interesting write up and a lot of work done, but......I wouldn't draw too many strong conclusions from the modeling for a couple reasons.

• I didn't see any quantitative validation of the modeling technique by experimental data (measure some thing about barrel dynamics directly and compare)
• I don't think the mesh size is small enough and they didn't mention a convergence study.

Would I say it was a nice way to see the types of behavior present in a dynamic firing event....yes.

 

[Snuby642]

Well back from some sky warn activities 8:30 till past 10pm for all the checkins / no accumulation at this site.

So would anyone like to explain a
convergence study to a layman?

 

[BFuller]

Well back from some sky warn activities 8:30 till past 10pm for all the checkins / no accumulation at this site.

So would anyone like to explain a
convergence study to a layman?

As you make the mesh finer (smaller cubes), results values will change. If you keep refining and then plot how the results are changing you can demonstrate that the mesh is fine enough for your purpose because the results are hardly changing relative to the uncertainty metric you require. At that you can say the mesh is "converged".

Without such a study it's possible to be introducing enough error to effect the accuracy of the results.

 

[Snuby642]

So we are tightening test parameters past the point of our equipments ability to adjust because we can?

Not arguing at all just trying to figure the practical use in a gun with 0.1 mill or a 1/4 moa scope adjustment and hopefully a shooter that can shoot well enough to varify it.

I have shot 1/2 moa rarely on my best days, possibly with guns capable of 1/8 moa but how the hell would i ever know.

To be honest an actual 1 moa day with my personal equipment is a good day . Niether I or my eqipment hold much better.

I'm comfortable in my skin so not ashamed at all.

 

[BU37377]

Update and more from Erik on the Tuner Brake:

 

[BU37377]

Received notification that my EC Tuner Brake has shipped!

 

[Ike Turner]

Received notification that my EC Tuner Brake has shipped!

When did you place your order? Placed my order in December & been patiently waiting.

Sent Erik an email over a week ago but no response

 

[BU37377]

When did you place your order? Placed my order in December & been patiently waiting.

Sent Erik an email over a week ago but no response

It was back in December also.

 

[Ike Turner]

It was back in December also.

Hopefully mine will be shipped soon...have a rifle fresh from the gunsmith I'm itching to try out lol

 

[trophyhunter]

I think Ive been shooting with my tuner brake since November

 

[kthomas]

Excited to see more of these get in the wild, so we can hear more reports on how the tuners are working out for people.

 

[BU37377]

 

[AleksanderSuave]

In case anyone is looking for some more real world user testing, rather than professional shooter/youtuber input,
I just got one of these as well (in black nitride), installed on my Tikka t3x CTR in 6.5 creedmoor, oryx chassis. It is the brake and tuner combo.

Similar to Erik's test video, I was shooting Berger hybrid target 140 grain for the test (which previously did not group well for me)

My best tuned group today was this 3 shot group (it was rainy and windy as well): 0.199 MOA

Prior to this, my best group was shot using Hornady eld match, 120 grain 0.454 MOA, which has consistently grouped the tightest for me:

 

[lennyo3034]

I got one of these on my 6ARC gas gun which I plan to shoot with reloads and factory ammo. My process was:

1. Use the tuner to tune gun to factory ammo
2. Tune my handloads (seating depth) for best accuracy with factory ammo tuner setting.

I can now switch between factory ammo and handloads without a POI shift and good accuracy with both.

 

[Snuby642]

I got one of these on my 6ARC gas gun which I plan to shoot with reloads and factory ammo. My process was:

1. Use the tuner to tune gun to factory ammo
2. Tune my handloads (seating depth) for best accuracy with factory ammo tuner setting.

I can now switch between factory ammo and handloads without a POI shift and good accuracy with both.

I get that logic, but.

Your hand loads should be capable of better than factory ammo accuracy. I doubt the best setting on the tuner would be the same.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I get that logic, but.

Your hand loads should be capable of better than factory ammo accuracy. I doubt the best setting on the tuner would be the same.

I dont know lennyo3034, his skills, or his abilities, but generally speaking, after watching a youtube video of a "precision reloader" who had his full length sizing die exhibiting serious vertical play..I would argue that not every individual is capable of producing better than factory ammo. Precision loading is a still a skill.

 

[lennyo3034]

I get that logic, but.

Your hand loads should be capable of better than factory ammo accuracy. I doubt the best setting on the tuner would be the same.

This is true, but I will be shooting factory ammo more than handloads. I just don’t have the time to load as much as I’d like to.

Currently my handloads do indeed outshoot factory but both are acceptable for a gas gun.

 

[Snuby642]

Tru I have 300 rnds to size and a lawn to mow.
On top of that 4 grandchildren to ride herd on for a while today.

Even retired folk end up busy. Lol

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I got one of these on my 6ARC gas gun which I plan to shoot with reloads and factory ammo. My process was:

1. Use the tuner to tune gun to factory ammo
2. Tune my handloads (seating depth) for best accuracy with factory ammo tuner setting.

I can now switch between factory ammo and handloads without a POI shift and good accuracy with both.

Do you typically see POI shift, or groups change, between different brands of factory ammo, after setting the tuner settings?

 

[FOHA1]

Well I'll throw in my data points.

Just installed the EC tuner brake on my 25" Benchmark chambered in 6GT. Upper left bullseye was shot with the previous 5 port brake, and the first 5 shot group (#0 setting on the tuner) after installing the ECTB was 1.2mils low, and about .4mils right. Proceeded to shoot groups at settings #2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12

after dialing for to compensate for the POI shift, but ultimately went back to the #0 setting. Need to get it out to some distance to see if it still holds as the best setting, ran out of time and it had started to rain pretty hard.

 

[lennyo3034]

Do you typically see POI shift, or groups change, between different brands of factory ammo, after setting the tuner settings?

I’ve only used Hornady factory ammo and once I set the tuner I haven’t touched it.

I expected more POI shift while going through tuner settings but that was not the case. Very little.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Well I'll throw in my data points.

Just installed the EC tuner brake on my 25" Benchmark chambered in 6GT. Upper left bullseye was shot with the previous 5 port brake, and the first 5 shot group (#0 setting on the tuner) after installing the ECTB was 1.2mils low, and about .4mils right. Proceeded to shoot groups at settings #2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 View attachment 7675528after dialing for to compensate for the POI shift, but ultimately went back to the #0 setting. Need to get it out to some distance to see if it still holds as the best setting, ran out of time and it had started to rain pretty hard.

You may want to try all the way out to setting 20. I confirmed by email with erik thats the end range. I had a few in my notes, as far as best performance and ended on 18 or 20 (cant remember). your group #8 looks pretty good, as does #6. I believe I had a similar experience around that setting, and it got even better for 18 or 20. Performance is typically a bell curve, or sine wave, so it will repeat itself in the second revolution to a degree, maybe get better.

Ive shot it a few times since, and can confirm that staying with the same grain (140), the performance is consistent with different ammo. Shot federal gold medal sierra match kings and the groups were all less than .5 moa, even with larger sample sizes (5-10 shot groups). Prior to this, any ammo above 129 grain in my tikka would not group well at all. I'll have to measure my 200 yard performance as well, but it was my 3rd time ever trying 200 (with holdovers only) and 3 different 10 shot groups were all approx. 0.7 MOA, which I feel like I can do even better, once I get some more 200 yard practice, set the scope for 200, and send a few more.