EC V2 tuner range day

[MarkCZ]

Got my EC V2 tuner on my Bergara B14R and had good weather day. Starting at 50 yds with SK Long Range ( shoots best in my gun ). Starting on O with the tuner flush at the muzzle. I could see from the start, that tuner does work. I fired 3 shot group. I know guys are going to say, you need to shoot 5, 10, 20 shot groups. My gunsmith told me once, when you fire 2 shots and they are not touching, move on to the next group. Firing more round will not make the group any smaller.
I turn the tuner 5 marks for each group. The groups ranged from 0.5" to 0.1" for 40 groups. You could see the groups tighten up, then open up, then tighten back up. Tuners do work. Mine tuner will go 4 turns, with 200 setting.

Then I move to 200yds to tune for long range. I picked out the best groups and fine tuned from there. I set on a full turn + 15. This one shoots best with 2 lots of ammo. I am running 1" to 1.5" vertical and 1" to 1.5" groups at 200yds. You can tune out the vertical, in your groups. I'm not saying a tuner can take out all of the vertical of your ammo, but will take it to the best the ammo can do.

I was told by Eric Cortina that lot testing could be the thing of the past. You should be able to tune the new lot to what the old was shooting. I saw this while tuning my gun. I had 2 lots, they were shooting the same for about 2 full turns, then the one lot started going south, while the other shot the same. I found a tune where both shot the same. It will be nice to buy a case of ammo and tune it to match your old lot.

How many time have you heard, my new lot of CenterX, Eley Match does not shoot. It is nice to tune the barrel to match your ammo. This is why all of the benchrest guys are using tuners? It time for the long range shooters to give them a try. I am sold on tuners
Mark

 

[grauhanen]

I was told by Eric Cortina that lot testing could be the thing of the past. You should be able to tune the new lot to what the old was shooting. ... It will be nice to buy a case of ammo and tune it to match your old lot.

How many time have you heard, my new lot of CenterX, Eley Match does not shoot. It is nice to tune the barrel to match your ammo. This is why all of the benchrest guys are using tuners? It time for the long range shooters to give them a try. I am sold on tuners

It would seem that the Cortina tuners are quite something. If they can make lot testing a thing of the past and make any lot of ammo shoot well, they have struck gold. No more lot testing on your own or at testing centers. BR shooters and others will be relieved to know that those lots of ammo that in the past didn't shoot will be able to do so.

 

[Drknite]

I have serious doubts that any tuner can make any lot of ammo shoot competitively. Improve possibly,but make competitive for benchrest shooting, no! Some lots just won’t shoot no matter what you do.

 

[MarkCZ]

I did not say ANY ammo can be made competitive. You have to start with good ammo. A tuner can make ammo shoot better. It will not make golden bullets shoot. But it will make good ammo shoot better.
Drknite, have you tried the lot that want shoot no matter what, have you tried it with a tuner?

When lot testing yourself, it is nice to have a tool that will help the ammo shoot better. I did it with 2 lots of SK Long Range. I am all for Testing Centers lot testing. What do you do when that ammo is gone?

 

[Drknite]

I use a Harrell,but yes I have. Benchrest is just a different animal than most other disciplines.

 

[Williwaw]

These guys say it better than I can. Excellent info.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I did not say ANY ammo can be made competitive. You have to start with good ammo. A tuner can make ammo shoot better. It will not make golden bullets shoot. But it will make good ammo shoot better.
Drknite, have you tried the lot that want shoot no matter what, have you tried it with a tuner?

When lot testing yourself, it is nice to have a tool that will help the ammo shoot better. I did it with 2 lots of SK Long Range. I am all for Testing Centers lot testing. What do you do when that ammo is gone?

Here is something to think about. if you have to start with good ammo and as you suggest you can adjust for each new lot. how are you to determine if you are going backwards or forwards on performance if you have to reset the tuner for another lot?

IE: if your good lot you initially tuned with shot the best and now you have a lot that doesn't match the same performance and you start to change the tuner setting to try and compensate for the difference are you gaining performance or going backwards could it be you now have less performance from the rifle. to put it in a much simpler example if you have shot the best scores with the current lot and tuner setting why would you want to change the tuner setting if now the new lot of ammo can't match the current or old lot and setting?

Lee

 

[Williwaw]

My gunsmith told me once, when you fire 2 shots and they are not touching, move on to the next group. Firing more round will not make the group any smaller.

Note, he is a gunsmith, not a statistician. In every case firing more rounds will make the group larger and more accurately predictive of future performance rather than a random unrepresentative lucky sample of past performance.

I was told by Eric Cortina that lot testing could be the thing of the past.

I am a great fan of EC but this topic is possibly outside his area of expertise.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Note, he is a gunsmith, not a statistician. In every case firing more rounds will make the group larger and more accurately predictive of future performance rather than a random unrepresentative lucky sample of past performance.

I am a great fan of EC but this topic is possibly outside his area of expertise.

Will, when trying to find a tuner setting what is the purpose of shooting more than 3 shots if needed between each adjustment? remember the purpose is to find the best setting. not to see how well the ammo will perform. I can understand mores shots for ammo evaluation but not when while tuning.
FWIW I validate a tuner setting by the ability to shoot multiple lots into any given group as well as holding the horizontal level to as close to the same for each lot. basically, the vertical will be within a bullet (0.223) to half a bullet diameter of each shot.

Lee

 

[MarkCZ]

Here is something to think about. if you have to start with good ammo and as you suggest you can adjust for each new lot. how are you to determine if you are going backwards or forwards on performance if you have to reset the tuner for another lot?

IE: if your good lot you initially tuned with shot the best and now you have a lot that doesn't match the same performance and you start to change the tuner setting to try and compensate for the difference are you gaining performance or going backwards could it be you now have less performance from the rifle. to put it in a much simpler example if you have shot the best scores with the current lot and tuner setting why would you want to change the tuner setting if now the new lot of ammo can't match the current or old lot and setting?

Lee

Lee,
I have 3 lot of SK Long Range. I tuned 2 of them. Both are shooting great, with the same point on the tuner. I have around 1000 round in on lot, and 2500 in the other one. I will shoot up the 1000 round lot first then go to the 2500 lot. I want need to change the tuner for 3500 rounds. I will check the 3rd lot when I go to it.

 

[MarkCZ]

Note, he is a gunsmith, not a statistician. In every case firing more rounds will make the group larger and more accurately predictive of future performance rather than a random unrepresentative lucky sample of past performance.

I am a great fan of EC but this topic is possibly outside his area of expertise.

Eric has been shooting his tuner for 10 year. I think it is his area of expertise.

 

[Williwaw]

Hey MarkCZ, I may have missed it but it is news to me that EC has extensive rimfire experience. I have an open mind but for now I think centerfire and rimfire tuning aren't the same thing. Glad you are confident and happy with what you have going on.

To answer Lee ... I used to do three at each postion and rotated on click at a time on a Harrell. Too often I found the results ambiguous and I am happier doing five shot groups now. Maybe my equipment or skills are insufficient to be determinative at 3 shots.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Eric has been shooting his tuner for 10 year. I think it is his area of expertise.

This may be true however I believe most of what he learned was from CF tuning and not RF there is a very big difference. CF ammo can be loaded more precisely for the best performance then using a tuner even more can be extracted in RF ammo it is always a roll of the dice.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lee,
I have 3 lot of SK Long Range. I tuned 2 of them. Both are shooting great, with the same point on the tuner. I have around 1000 round in on lot, and 2500 in the other one. I will shoot up the 1000 round lot first then go to the 2500 lot. I want need to change the tuner for 3500 rounds. I will check the 3rd lot when I go to it.

If you have the setting which is truly for your setup, then you will not have to touch the tuner again. with this setting you can easily weed out lots which will not be of value to use.

Lee

 

[Capitol5868]

Tuners are a PIA. They need to be adjusted constantly. Every time the weather temp changes its a different tune. That means from morning to afternoon and from week to week.

 

[littlesister]

Tuners are a PIA. They need to be adjusted constantly. Every time the weather temp changes its a different tune. That means from morning to afternoon and from week to week.

Not so! If your barrel is truly in tune. It is repeatable from day to day. A few feet per second difference in ammo speed or a few degree changes in temperature will make very little difference in tuner settings. Maby a click or two in or out. Most of the time not enough difference to bother with. If this is not the case with your gun and you're constantly playing with the tuner, then your barrel was never in tune to begin with!

 

[Matt_3479]

I’m glad your rifle is shooting well. Tuners work but the amount of tinkering and keeping in tune with temps, lots etc can be exhausting. I’ve also seen where the best tune at 50 isn’t the best for 100 or 200 and so on. I believe tuners are more so for bench game with fixed ranges vs prs with multiple distances per stage. I’m working with a tuner now to hopefully find a happy medium.

I also don’t believe 2 shots is enough in tuner testing or for rimfire atleast. I tested 1000’s of rounds last year with a tuner and 2 rounds just isn’t enough as you can get a misreading so easily with a flyer or 2 good shots. I find 3-5 gives you a better sample. I was testing a new tuner yesterday and could get 2 in the same hole with 1 outlier for multiple tunes then 3 in the same hole. You can’t tell until you fire that 3rd as the first two would land in the same poi with the 3rd being out there. I would of had to test way way more tunes running 2 shots then 3

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I’m glad your rifle is shooting well. Tuners work but the amount of tinkering and keeping in tune with temps, lots etc can be exhausting. I’ve also seen where the best tune at 50 isn’t the best for 100 or 200 and so on. I believe tuners are more so for bench game with fixed ranges vs prs with multiple distances per stage. I’m working with a tuner now to hopefully find a happy medium.

I also don’t believe 2 shots is enough in tuner testing or for rimfire atleast. I tested 1000’s of rounds last year with a tuner and 2 rounds just isn’t enough as you can get a misreading so easily with a flyer or 2 good shots. I find 3-5 gives you a better sample. I was testing a new tuner yesterday and could get 2 in the same hole with 1 outlier for multiple tunes then 3 in the same hole. You can’t tell until you fire that 3rd as the first two would land in the same poi with the 3rd being out there. I would of had to test way way more tunes running 2 shots then 3

Matt, of the 1000's of rounds you tested did you shoot any bare barrel? if you did like a lot of shooters do and only put a tuner then tried to tune without first finding ammo that will shoot consistent then that could be why you need to make adjustments for changes in condition or when shooting a new lot.
if a new lot has fliers no tuner will make them go away and to tune with lots that have surprises(fliers) is going to be a long road ahead. trust me I know really well about this. what I learned is tuning is all about bullet exit timing nothing more nothing less. find the exit timing for your setup and you don't have to touch the tuner again. not matter distance or temperatures.
but and this is the big one you need to find consistent ammo first to tune with. only way is testing bare barrel. another advantage with this is that you will find out if the barrel is worth trying to tune. another lesson I learn over the years.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Not so! If your barrel is truly in tune. It is repeatable from day to day. A few feet per second difference in ammo speed or a few degree changes in temperature will make very little difference in tuner settings. Maby a click or two in or out. Most of the time not enough difference to bother with. If this is not the case with your gun and you're constantly playing with the tuner, then your barrel was never in tune to begin with!

I agree, but once you find the setting you should not have to change it. I have said this many times if you have a setting and have shot your best scores and under different conditions why would you want to make any adjustments. especially if you are shooting new lot, it's not the tune it is the ammo.

Lee

 

[Matt_3479]

Matt, of the 1000's of rounds you tested did you shoot any bare barrel? if you did like a lot of shooters do and only put a tuner then tried to tune without first finding ammo that will shoot consistent then that could be why you need to make adjustments for changes in condition or when shooting a new lot.
if a new lot has fliers no tuner will make them go away and to tune with lots that have surprises(fliers) is going to be a long road ahead. trust me I know really well about this. what I learned is tuning is all about bullet exit timing nothing more nothing less. find the exit timing for your setup and you don't have to touch the tuner again. not matter distance or temperatures.
but and this is the big one you need to find consistent ammo first to tune with. only way is testing bare barrel. another advantage with this is that you will find out if the barrel is worth trying to tune. another lesson I learn over the years.

Lee

Hey Lee,

Thank you for the informative response. I first and foremost do not claim to be any kind of tuner expert, just what I have noticed from 3 different rifles and 3 different tuners. We did shoot for lot testing and ammo testing before playing with the tuners.

I just found personally that 2 shots was unpredictable and sometimes unrepeatable. We can always have 2 shots that land near identical and obviously the more shots you take the more you’ll be able to read. I just found that 1 extra shot really helped simplify and easier to pick tunes to work with.

Unfortunately the tuner I’m working with currently is new and just wanted to see it so shot the last of my ammo that it liked. I have 4 different lots to pick up tomorrow and try before buying in bulk.

Now the one thing you mentioned was testing bare barrel obviously no tuner to find what rifle likes before tuning. Now i was told to test with tuner on barrel but at its starting position to find what barrel likes. I’d like to hear why bare barrel vs starting position of tuner. If you’re going be adding a tuner to the barrel after it could throw the whole thing for a wack anyways which is why I was told the forward weight of the tuner being on the barrel will be easier to tune once you find an ammo it likes.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Hey Lee,

Thank you for the informative response. I first and foremost do not claim to be any kind of tuner expert, just what I have noticed from 3 different rifles and 3 different tuners. We did shoot for lot testing and ammo testing before playing with the tuners.

I just found personally that 2 shots was unpredictable and sometimes unrepeatable. We can always have 2 shots that land near identical and obviously the more shots you take the more you’ll be able to read. I just found that 1 extra shot really helped simplify and easier to pick tunes to work with.

Unfortunately the tuner I’m working with currently is new and just wanted to see it so shot the last of my ammo that it liked. I have 4 different lots to pick up tomorrow and try before buying in bulk.

Now the one thing you mentioned was testing bare barrel obviously no tuner to find what rifle likes before tuning. Now i was told to test with tuner on barrel but at its starting position to find what barrel likes. I’d like to hear why bare barrel vs starting position of tuner. If you’re going be adding a tuner to the barrel after it could throw the whole thing for a wack anyways which is why I was told the forward weight of the tuner being on the barrel will be easier to tune once you find an ammo it likes.

Matt, I use 3 shots to tune with too. but if the first 2 don't touch each other I don't shoot the 3rd.
as I mentioned tuning is about bullet exit timing and making it so the bullet will exit at the highest peak of the barrel's elliptical pattern of movement. if you can envision the barrel starts at a natural droop position from the weight of the barrel it will move upward from left to right since the torque of the bullet traveling down the barrel will make want to pull to the right in a clockwise direction. I am sure you seen a bullet spiral and veer to the right as it loses velocity. with a barrel that has no weight at the muzzle it will move and reach its natural highest peak as the bullet exits. with a good consistent lot, it will have the bullet exit timing very close to each other except for when there is a slight velocity difference as is normal in rimfire ammo. it will show a vertical height pattern close to each POI. with this information you now know where the barrel will naturally have bullets exit at the highest POI. when tuning you are trying to find a setting to match or exceed that natural highest POI
if you use weight at the muzzle to start with you will never know where that highest POI should be at and will be adjusting the tuner for new lots or condition changes.
Here is an example of what I am talking about. these groups all 5 shots were shot with no tuner and 2 different lots of CX notice the vertical height as shown with the black line above each group. as you can see each group had the highest shot very close to each other. this is the barrel's natural highest bullet exit point. even the far-left group which is about 6-8 shots to foul the clean barrel has a shot that is close to the others. my POA is the bull below each group. with this information I was able to tune this rifle and have the tuner set at 90 and has not been touched since going on 7 years I believe.
how well is it tuned the other target was shot with a lot of CX for the first time at 100yds. 50 shots a quarter is 0.955 in diameter. 2 RBA targets one shot in December and the other in August in club matches. 250-22X and 250-21X. probably a 60-degree difference in temperatures. I was able to get this rifle tuned to be able to do this because I knew where the barrel needed to have the bullet exit at. all because I knew the how it shot bare barrel.

Lee

 

[smelv]

G'day Lee, regarding a post on Rimfire Central .com in 2019 the harrells tuner on my Anschutz 54.30 is set on 125 and i still see no reason to change it. Ammo is eley match.Scott.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

G'day Lee, regarding a post on Rimfire Central .com in 2019 the harrells tuner on my Anschutz 54.30 is set on 125 and i still see no reason to change it. Ammo is eley match.Scott.

Hey Scott, glad to hear the rifle is still shooting with no need for changes on the tuner.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

To the OP I apologize for the hijack of your thread. hopefully some of the information will be of some help.

Lee

 

[J_D]

I have and have had multiple tuners on Rimfire rifles. I found once you find the best ammo, you set the tune, and for the most part, leave it, even with new lots, or different ammo.

I believe it tunes the barrel into its sweet spot. I never tuned for each lot. I’m no expert, but shot tons of ammo in my testing.