Educate me on 'categories' of ammo..

[PlinkIt]

I am just getting into this longer distance shooting with the 22LR..

and have quickly learned that the ammo plays a huge role in what you get out of it.. Even more so with using an autoloader it seems.. and I understand the sub sonic benefits at long range.. and I understand you get what you pay for..

BUT

I doubt everyone is using Eley Tenex every time they shoot no matter the event they are shooting considering the price tag at least.. and I also imagine there are great mid price options that will perform in the a suitable manner for half the $$.. but weeding through what is worth the money and searching is proving to be quite an aggravating process these days

So help me update my ammo 'etiquette'..

What ammo are you using for what event...

long range steel plinking?
long range practice?
long range target shooting for groups?
competition?

Basically what are you using for what?.. < I figure that question belongs in the stupid section but it seemed more rimfire related

 

[PlinkIt]

If I can get enough replies I will try to put together a chart or something as a reference of comparison

 

[justin amateur]

Lemme see here, there's bulk hi-v ammo, factory thirds sub-sonic ammo,
factory seconds sub-sonic ammo and match grade sub-sonic ammo.

for accuracy results better to see a previous report

.22LR Rimfire Ammo Comparison Test within AccurateShooter.com

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

^yeah each category seems to break down into sub categories, and of course there are ammos on the borderline that may be effected by temp, humidity, feet above sea level, but the 2 main are supersonic and sub sonic.

supersonic includes:

hyper velocity 1250fps +
high velocity 1080ish -1249 fps

"technically" subsonic as it's usually below the speed of sound includes:

standard / match velocity 950 -1050 / 80ish
then there are the "quiet" ammos that are 950 and less (CB longs, shorts, quiets, super sub sonic, etc.)

out of those 2 main categories, and even in the sub categories, there are different grades from bulk "hope it fires" to select ammo that is test fired and graded on how the lot performs against another, or are specially made with more precise tolerances. then there is stuff in between.

i've tried swapping back and forth for different applications, i'ts just easier for me to stay with the generally more consistent / accurate standard or sub sonic ammos for hunting, paper, steel, etc. and keeping the same dope. i've found that for just about any application i have, CCI standard vel and eley target (yellow box) seems to work well out of my equipment without breaking the bank or worrying about how much $ a round is going downrange.

wolf match or SK standard seems to be the mid range priced ammo that provides some pretty good results that most swear by.

look at how many types of eley there are out there, even just a slight change in the design of the driving band changes the characteristics of the ammo, putting it in a different grade through a test barrel at the factory.

but i does come down to what works well out of the rifle / pistol you have.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Good (roll your own), Okay (FGMM), Shitty (everything else)

 

[jbell]

It all comes down to what your rifle likes (I know that is a cop out and has been said an untold number of times, but it is true).

The link Justin posted is a decent place to start, however your results will vary from it. You really cant tell what ammo is going to do out of your rifle until you try it. But in general you get what you pay for. So that being said:

Cheap to inexpensive ammo (bulk pack super sonic whatever) is good for shooting area targets fast at close range, like maybe practicing for carbine or handgun drills. Mostly for practicing presentations, reloads, transitions, ect.

Low priced supersonic semi quality ammo (like CCI Mini mags, Standard velocity, ect) is good if you want to work on your wind reading and adjusting while using larger targets like 3-5 MOA at 100yds and beyond or unsupported work.

Mid priced entry level match ammo (Wolf, Eley club, RWS rifle match most all grades except the highest of Federal GMM, ect) better for more precise wind reading on slightly more challenging targets, more precise unsupported after you start getting decent at it, faster precision shooting, multiple target engagement type work.

Actual match ammo but this is only determined by what your rifle likes because over 50% of it will only slightly outshoot the ammo listed in the "mid priced entry level ammo" and a small amount of it will truly be accurate. Eley: Tenex, black box, Edge, Biathlon, Lapua: Midas, Exact, CenterX, Polar, RWS: R50, R100, and maybe a few others. GREAT for everything!!!

But keep in mind you need to have a rifle capable of shooting well enough to justify the higher grade of ammo. Honestly most off the shelf production sub $800 rifles are not going to be accurate enough to justify the price and you prob will not see much improvement over the mid price ammo. At least not the same kind of improvement as with a truly accurate rifle.

But this is just my 0.02

 

[yoteman]

It all comes down to what your rifle likes (I know that is a cop out and has been said an untold number of times, but it is true).

The link Justin posted is a decent place to start, however your results will vary from it. You really cant tell what ammo is going to do out of your rifle until you try it. But in general you get what you pay for. So that being said:

Cheap to inexpensive ammo (bulk pack super sonic whatever) is good for shooting area targets fast at close range, like maybe practicing for carbine or handgun drills. Mostly for practicing presentations, reloads, transitions, ect.

Low priced supersonic semi quality ammo (like CCI Mini mags, Standard velocity, ect) is good if you want to work on your wind reading and adjusting while using larger targets like 3-5 MOA at 100yds and beyond or unsupported work.

Mid priced entry level match ammo (Wolf, Eley club, RWS rifle match most all grades except the highest of Federal GMM, ect) better for more precise wind reading on slightly more challenging targets, more precise unsupported after you start getting decent at it, faster precision shooting, multiple target engagement type work.

Actual match ammo but this is only determined by what your rifle likes because over 50% of it will only slightly outshoot the ammo listed in the "mid priced entry level ammo" and a small amount of it will truly be accurate. Eley: Tenex, black box, Edge, Biathlon, Lapua: Midas, Exact, CenterX, Polar, RWS: R50, R100, and maybe a few others. GREAT for everything!!!

But keep in mind you need to have a rifle capable of shooting well enough to justify the higher grade of ammo. Honestly most off the shelf production sub $800 rifles are not going to be accurate enough to justify the price and you prob will not see much improvement over the mid price ammo. At least not the same kind of improvement as with a truly accurate rifle.

But this is just my 0.02

only will add to jbell, an top.
at what yardage, ie most will do ok at 50yd, but step pass 100yd, then you have lot#
of same ammo, that is as different as night/day
however, jbell, top,justin, has hit the high spots nicely.
this is just my 2cents as Mr bell has said an said well
more like .10cent Mr j lol
i have yet to see 2 same brand rifles, shot, same brand/lot# well.
uh sorry chickn, an apache both shoot the same ammo lights out,
but i think it has more to do that they are DAMM GOOD MARKSMAN.

 

[justin amateur]

And due to the ongoing ammo shortage,
the quality/consistency of recent deliveries has been poor.
So just because you think you're ordering a decent mid-grade ammo,
don't be surprised when you get to the range, that vertical dispersion reeks.

My last order tested at 50 yards through the fuglie:

CCI SV 1.5 inches vertical spread

SK Pistol Match 0.75 inches

Wolf ME 1 inch

RWS R50 0.5 inch

Norma Tac 0.5 inch

Some of that vertical is from the down draft off the berm,
but not enough to explain 1 inch from ME and 1.5 from CCI SV.

 

[PlinkIt]

JUSTIN - Good link! I am trying to cross reference cost vs their results now.

TOP PREDAATOR - you certainly started getting into what I was getting at with this post, I understand the broad difference in the high velocity vs sub sonic but how you guys know which ones are really worth the $$ when it comes to the middle of the pack prices is beyond me.. other than just trying to shoot everyone out there I guess.. that is really the question in the back of my mind that got me looking into what others are using for what

ARMYJERRY - I didn't think you could roll your own rimfires?!? you really got something to teach me here!!!

JBELL - Its not a 'cop out' to say its what the rifle likes I completely understand what everyone is getting at when it comes down to preferred ammo for a specific rifle, what I was more so getting at would be what is your go to ammo for testing a new rifle.. as in what ammo do you expect what performance level out of vs price.. which is what you really started getting into with your explanations as you gave examples of what you put into each classification. and I understand my rifle is the weak link in this first endeavor of mine but it seems as if I have the 'bug' now as yoteman called it.. so I also played with a cooper the past week getting a feel for what I want in the next one.. but I am still having too much fun with this autoloader to let it go yet lol

YOTEMAN - yes jbell does normally give good advice in a good amount as I have come to learn quickly as do you sir! and I see the consensus between all of the more experienced such as yourselves that its all ammo vs rifle dependant, but my thoughts and worries that got me to this post was still my inexperience with all these ammos that you guys are familiar with.. I mean I cant just go by price to judge what group they should be in because with all the price gouging going on these days its impossible to know if an ammo is at a correct cost..

JUSTIN - I have heard someone else say the same thing about ammo quality since the 22s have been so hard to come by.. and your results you have there are exactly why I turn to you guys that are so much more experienced with it than myself because I just ordered 1000 rounds of CCI standard thinking that should be a better long range choice than my bulk federal auto match.. boy was I wrong!!!!!!!

 

[ArmyJerry]

hehe yeah sorry Derrick, I was still thinking 223 thread when I responded to yours, enjoy the rimfire man, that is turning into a expensive hobby in the last few years.

 

[justin amateur]

One last comment to add:
Better to use a single 50 round box of match quality ammo,
than 10 boxes of of inconsistent shooting less expensive ammo.

I can't learn when shooting the cheap stuff.
It causes too many errors on it's own, for me to diagnose what I'm doing wrong.
Shooting a 20 dollar box of quality 22lr lets me concentrate on my skills
or lets me diagnose what my rifle is doing wrong when using the test rest.

I've found that a 50 yard target is just as difficult as the 100 yards ones
when you focus on each individual shot instead of attempting groups.
I've learned more about judging wind, hold, setup and follow through
by shooting a 30 tiny dot target at 50 yards than I have my big bullseyes at 100.

Get a single 50 round box of Midas plus, Tenex, RWS R50
and a morning spent trying for a perfect run at 50 yards,
will teach you more about your rifle , your mistakes and judging wind,
than entire bricks of lesser ammo at 100 yards.

Try this target at 50 yards and see for yourself.
Try it with a box of cheap ammo, then a box of the good stuff.
I think you'll prefer to spend more to shoot less,
when your skills improve at a greater rate with fewer rounds going down range.
Save the cheap stuff for plinking or rimfire pistols.

8.5x11 30 dot target
download, open, print actual size (100%)

 

[jbell]

One last comment to add:
Better to use a single 50 round box of match quality ammo,
than 10 boxes of of inconsistent shooting less expensive ammo.

I can't learn when shooting the cheap stuff.
It causes too many errors on it's own, for me to diagnose what I'm doing wrong.

Me too!!

 

[yoteman]

One last comment to add:
Better to use a single 50 round box of match quality ammo,
than 10 boxes of of inconsistent shooting less expensive ammo.

I can't learn when shooting the cheap stuff.
It causes too many errors on it's own, for me to diagnose what I'm doing wrong.
Shooting a 20 dollar box of quality 22lr lets me concentrate on my skills
or lets me diagnose what my rifle is doing wrong when using the test rest.

I've found that a 50 yard target is just as difficult as the 100 yards ones
when you focus on each individual shot instead of attempting groups.
I've learned more about judging wind, hold, setup and follow through
by shooting a 30 tiny dot target at 50 yards than I have my big bullseyes at 100.

Get a single 50 round box of Midas plus, Tenex, RWS R50
and a morning spent trying for a perfect run at 50 yards,
will teach you more about your rifle , your mistakes and judging wind,
than entire bricks of lesser ammo at 100 yards.

Try this target at 50 yards and see for yourself.
Try it with a box of cheap ammo, then a box of the good stuff.
I think you'll prefer to spend more to shoot less,
when your skills improve at a greater rate with fewer rounds going down range.
Save the cheap stuff for plinking or rimfire pistols.

8.5x11 30 dot target
download, open, print actual size (100%)

There's that damm foresakin target.
you are 100% correct that damm dot target, it will make you pull your hair out at 50yd
what iI meant was, some ammo that's lights out at 50yds, will turn to shit past 100yd
that is why we test past 100yd, then check at 50yd
shooting a 1"to 3/4" target at 50yd vs a 2 1/2 to 3" target at 200yd.
I wish y'all were close to NC an could bring them hammers to the TSC,
its fun as hell, well maybe not to much competition. (Great shooters kicking my butt now)

YOi

 

[justin amateur]

That damm dot target, it will make you pull your hair out at 50yd

It really doesn't look that difficult to shoot does it?
30 dots in 30 circles just a hair larger than a 22lr round.
I've reached the point where I can keep my target average of poi from poa to less than 0.2".
That was this summer on those dead calm mornings.
With fall on the way and morning breezes beginning to kick up,
I'm expecting that my target averages will climb up as well.
Looking forward to it as I'm getting confident in my wind reading.
And with the bipod feet on the doubled up towel,
it's really getting to where it looks like I know what I'm doing.

 

[muzzlebreaker]

I have read the comments and I would only add as my 2 cents worth that CCI mini mag works very well for me with no stray fliers. Also, I don't see any body mention bullet weight. I have more consistency using 40 gr vs. 36 gr. in general, especially out to 100yds. I do not claim to shoot single hole groups, nor do I compete with my .22(10-22 target model). In regards to the target posted above. Aim small miss small right. I usually post up the replacement dots from the shoot and see targets for my .22lr.

 

[PlinkIt]

Justin- I understand what you are getting to and that's exactly the path I am trying to take in learning the ammo I should be using currently.. I don't want to pay for tenex to learn at my capacity with an auto loader but I want to start learning what the proper $$ vs consistency medium is that will let me shoot for a long amount of time in a beneficial manner. I just ordered a 1000 rounds a piece of sk standard and sk rifle match since I had good luck with the couple boxes of sk standard I got my hands on before.. I figure for now that ammo should be just as capable as myself (if it happens to be a good run for the gun)... I got a few single boxes of some of the high $$ stuff floating around just to try and see if I can tell a real difference when I have a better base line for myself and the rifle.

and that target!! yes I have it saved to my desktop as a matter of fact! I made it a point to save that thing after you guys brought it up in http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ection/247757-so-you-think-you-can-shoot.html

Yoteman - Interesting.. never thought of testing the long range first to make sure it was suitable for that.. I like the idea of doing it in that order though.. and 2.5-3 inches at 200 huh? is that what you guys targets are at TSC? I have got to get off my behind and drive over there one weekend you are only a couple hours away..

Justin - meant to ask you about the towel thing a while back when i saw you post about it, how much of a difference does that seem to have made?

Muzzlebreaker- I have tried a few sonic rounds including the CCIs I didn't have much luck with most of them at distance.. BUT, federal auto match let me go in the 90% hit rate on a 2 inch steel plate at a 160 yards this past Saturday.. so I understand where you are coming from

 

[justin amateur]

By taking the rubber feet off the deck, I have repeatable accuracy.
No more recoil bounce. No loading the bipod, no forcing the aim.
What I ended up with is recoil slide, which is desirable on a rimfire.
Same effect the bench shooters go for, to prevent muzzle jump.
Bipod on the towel has cut down on the vertical fliers.

 

[muzzlebreaker]

Derrick- I own a semi-auto so I've always shy'ed away from sub-sonic. Perhaps I will give them a try. Not that its funny but Fed. Auto match is the one ammo my semi auto rifle doesn't like(fte-and major feeding issues)

 

[jbell]

I have found SK rifle match to be very good ammo. From my test I am almost convinced that is nothing more than center x.

 

[yoteman]

I have found SK rifle match to be very good ammo. From my test I am almost convinced that is nothing more than center x.

now the cats out of the bag

 

[JG26_Irish]

Ammo

It all comes down to what your rifle likes (I know that is a cop out and has been said an untold number of times, but it is true).

The link Justin posted is a decent place to start, however your results will vary from it. You really cant tell what ammo is going to do out of your rifle until you try it. But in general you get what you pay for. So that being said:

Cheap to inexpensive ammo (bulk pack super sonic whatever) is good for shooting area targets fast at close range, like maybe practicing for carbine or handgun drills. Mostly for practicing presentations, reloads, transitions, ect.

Low priced supersonic semi quality ammo (like CCI Mini mags, Standard velocity, ect) is good if you want to work on your wind reading and adjusting while using larger targets like 3-5 MOA at 100yds and beyond or unsupported work.

Mid priced entry level match ammo (Wolf, Eley club, RWS rifle match most all grades except the highest of Federal GMM, ect) better for more precise wind reading on slightly more challenging targets, more precise unsupported after you start getting decent at it, faster precision shooting, multiple target engagement type work.

Actual match ammo but this is only determined by what your rifle likes because over 50% of it will only slightly outshoot the ammo listed in the "mid priced entry level ammo" and a small amount of it will truly be accurate. Eley: Tenex, black box, Edge, Biathlon, Lapua: Midas, Exact, CenterX, Polar, RWS: R50, R100, and maybe a few others. GREAT for everything!!!

But keep in mind you need to have a rifle capable of shooting well enough to justify the higher grade of ammo. Honestly most off the shelf production sub $800 rifles are not going to be accurate enough to justify the price and you prob will not see much improvement over the mid price ammo. At least not the same kind of improvement as with a truly accurate rifle.

But this is just my 0.02

Jbell and others have covered this topic well. Every rifle will perform differently with all the ammo and will tend to do its best with one or two kinds and will do better with certain lots (velocity varies by lot) of those ammo brands which it prefers. My rifle likes the ammo from Lapua best. That includes Center X, Wolf Match Extra, Wolf Match and SK. Strangely it hates Midas+. I have never found any X-Act to try. It will shoot Eley good but never as well as the others.

What ammo are you using for what event...

long range steel plinking? - for plinking or warming up the bbl I may use SK std+ or whatever was on sale. No copper plated rounds in my good rifles. Found some cheap Norma ammo the other day that is outstanding in quality and performance. SK is half the cost of Lapua and 1/3rd the cost of Eley Black more or less.

long range practice? Wolf or Eley or my best ammo depending on how serious my practice session will be

long range target shooting for groups? Lapua Center X, Eley Black, Wolf Match Extra

competition? Lapua Center X from selected lot# which have been tested and proven to win. Or Eley Black from tested lots if it is going to be windy. I find the Eley bullet shape is less affected by the wind in my rifle and unlike practice, in competition, when the wind blows you still have to shoot. I shoot with about 5 of the top ten benchrest shooters in the nation when I compete and they all, 100% to a man rely on Eley Black for events with one exception who sometimes uses Lapua. Our local range has the most diabolical winds I have ever seen.

I try to buy best quality ammo in bulk direct from the wholesaler/distributor and when I can I either go to where ammo testing is happening and pick it up or have him deliver it to my house when he is passing thru to avoid the shipping fees or sales taxes or both. This does not make it cheap but saves some $ and since I have several bricks at a time in the gun room, I do not have to think about the cost every time I go to the range. So, burning up 4-5 boxes of Lapua or Eley at a time is not as painful. I still keep CCI mini mags around for hunting and fun plinking with some of the other guns.

Irish

 

[Quarter Horse]

Derrick, don't listen to these guys. They are part of an insidious cabal that is intent on leaving you broke and destroying your sense of self worth. Since posting to the 6x5 thread, I now have three rifles that I only shoot with Center -X which costs me about as much per round as very accurate .223 handloads. Trying to better the performance of two little girls, I bought one of those A-word rifles. Did it improve my performance? Yes it did by about .004". Did I move in front of the Bell girls? In a word, no. Now I'm considering sending the Anschutz off for a magazine conversion which will of course necessitate my restocking the rifle. By the time I do all of this, my economical .22 tactical trainer will be the second most expensive rifle I own. All of this so I can have a cheap to shoot trainer. My wife is normally very tolerant regarding my firearm expenditures but I'm having trouble explaining the concept of an eco-trainer.

I have not yet mentioned the recent the 50yd. target shot by jbell with his STR .22 conversion made of unobtanium nor yoteman's 100yd. target which reputedly was shot when Uranus was at it's closest distance to the earth in the last 736 years.

Oh well, it is a lot of fun. Proceed at your own risk.

 

[justin amateur]

Insidious cabal, hunh?

Never been part of one of those before.
Oh well, there's always a first time.


Bwa-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Haaaaa!

Hey...is the accent on the first ha or the last one? D'oh!

 

[PlinkIt]

Irish- I wish that I had your connections with the ammo, seems like you are really able to get it from the top of the pile. and thanks for the insight on what you guys are using for what it really is giving me some perspective

Quarter- LOL I know what you mean!! the idea of a 22 started off as a great $$ saving idea for me.. then I see what these guys are doing with them and start ordering stuff from KIDD... now I started building another one.. and looking at bolt actions to purchase.. and then the cost of the ammo is getting up there as I am trying to get better groups.. its like a disease!!

Justin- That target of yours is what's INSIDIOUS!!!!!

 

[justin amateur]

Insidious: operating or proceeding in an inconspicuous or seemingly harmless way but actually with grave effect.


I can see that. The more time I spend with the 30 dot target,
the easier it is to produce a grave effect on the local rodent population.