effectiveness out of 10.5

[steelsnob47]

greetings, first thread, newb here. maybe this has been covered not sure...sorry if its redundant.

out of a 10.5" 5.56 ar15....whats likely between these given rounds to do best terminal performance against 2 leg varmints between 5 and 100 yards?

american eagle 55gr ball
american eagle 50 gr jhp
handloaded 77 gr smk (mk262 clone)
hornady 55 gr zmax
winchester 55? gr ballistic silvertips

right now have a little of each but most good stuff isnt available for purchase right now online. which should i roll with for a truck pdw? thanks for all input

 

[The_Next_Generation]

My vote goes to 50gr JHP or the 55gr zmax. At 10.5", I'd prioritize velocity.

 

[AvsFan]

greetings, first thread, newb here. maybe this has been covered not sure...sorry if its redundant.

out of a 10.5" 5.56 ar15....whats likely between these given rounds to do best terminal performance against 2 leg varmints between 5 and 100 yards?

american eagle 55gr ball
american eagle 50 gr jhp
handloaded 77 gr smk (mk262 clone)
hornady 55 gr zmax
winchester 55? gr ballistic silvertips

right now have a little of each but most good stuff isnt available for purchase right now online. which should i roll with for a truck pdw? thanks for all input

Here's a good video from Paul Harrell, it's not ammo specific, however, the data is very intriguing (velocity, accuracy, power factor, etc.). Any of the loads listed would stop a threat.

Cheers,

AvsFan

 

[st1650]

Not on your list but Federal Fusion MSR would be my goto.

 

[RyanScott]

Get a bonded expanding bullet.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Yea you are going to want a Bonded SP most likely. Its what most federal Law Enforcement use in their AR's.

A 10.5" barrel does not have enough velocity to reliably fragment with M193

64 Grain Gold Dots, Federal XM556SBCT3 , and as mentioned the MSR for a cheap more available round. Barnes also has some nice offerings that are nasty on flesh but they are significantly more expensive.

Of the rounds you mentioned, use the MK262. Guys who have access to it have been using that in short barrel guns for years due to its performance on target over M885 and A1. Its not going to perform as well as the bonded rounds but sometimes you gotta run what u brung.

 

[alamo5000]

Go with 75 grain or 77 grain. It's been researched out a ton.

FWIW I have a 10.5" 5.56 as well.

With good ammo you have about a 50 yard extremely effective round when using 75 or 77 grain ammo. After 50 yards it still wouldn't be nice to get hit by but it's "less effective".

 

[RyanScott]

I’m really skeptical of claims that Mk262 is better at killing things than M855A1.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

The A1 with the massive penetrator up top is going to most likely pass through unarmored targets, and will really only deform when hitting a hard surface. It doesn't have the lead content to fragment with the copper core, do you will get some deformation but who knows with less than 18" of soft flesh.

It came out after I got out of so I don't have any first hand experience with it, just what I have read. The MK262 has been used in shorties and m4's in SOCOM since it was introduced for the SPRs. The SOST round was there for a while and the Marines went over the the MK318 before the A1 came online.

I wouldn't want to get shot with either and if I had access to A1 as a civvy, I probably wouldn't run it due to mag compatibility issues and feed ramp gouging. Its also a pretty hot round that will decrease parts life on most guns. Its also a 1.5-2MOA load at best so taking it out past 300 yards its going to get crushed by the MK262 on first round hit probability alone.

 

[RyanScott]

Talked to two people with experience with A1 in the field. The report was that it was better than anything they had used short of a 240. One reported head shots leaving semi-complete brains in trees. A third party reported that A1 made M80 obsolete. It definitely fragments in soft tissue.

 

[benchmstr]

I use the 62 grain federal fusion out of my mk18 for hog hunting.

Those damn things practically explode when they go in. And don't need a ton of velocity for expansion.

Bench

 

[steelsnob47]

thanks for replies...to complicate the discussion i realized i also have a little bit of winchester "deer season" load that i think is 62 grain. ive used it successfully for whitetail out of longer barrels but wondering if maybe its slower expansion soft tip would trump the others listed?
im leary of trusting my 77gr handloads defending family but may go that route as i have a lot of components to make more....
i topped first mag with the only 20 rounds of hornady black 75 gr sbr...its bonded soft point but dont like stacking only 20 in a mag of something that will give a zero shift midway randomly thru string of fire....maybe should mix it with 77smks instead of the 50gr jhp.
sorry guys just ocd ing out a bit on selection.

 

[steelsnob47]

I use the 62 grain federal fusion out of my mk18 for hog hunting.

Those damn things practically explode when they go in. And don't need a ton of velocity for expansion.

Bench

i will definitely look to try those in the future.

 

[deersniper]

300blk is more better out of a SBR

But if you insist
55 grain gold dots
Or
50-60 gr vmax
Or
556 77tmk

 

[Daddyusmaximus]

greetings, first thread, newb here. maybe this has been covered not sure...sorry if its redundant.

out of a 10.5" 5.56 ar15....whats likely between these given rounds to do best terminal performance against 2 leg varmints between 5 and 100 yards?

american eagle 55gr ball
american eagle 50 gr jhp
handloaded 77 gr smk (mk262 clone)
hornady 55 gr zmax
winchester 55? gr ballistic silvertips

right now have a little of each but most good stuff isnt available for purchase right now online. which should i roll with for a truck pdw? thanks for all input

Right now isn't a good time to be buying ammo, with the country up in flames, and prices gone through the roof... I feel you. Thankfully, I have a decent amount. Out of the ones you list, either will work. Remember what a 10.5" gun is for. We're talking about a defensive weapon here. Something you'd use at speaking distances... maybe out to 100 yds max. Even 193 will fragment out of a 10.5 at 100 yds. Don't try it @ 250... I'd say the 262 clone, but in these hard times, any of those would work. Also consider you will want to confirm zero, and practice. In fact, training is even more important in times like this. Use what you have most of for training. Select one of the others for your duty ammo. ZERO... for the duty ammo.

 

[Bakwa]

I’m really skeptical of claims that Mk262 is better at killing things than M855A1.

You're right. M855A1 will kill your 5.56 rifle well before MK262.
Something about SAAMI specs, high pressures, and bolt breakages.

In all seriousness, I wouldn't have my rifle on a M855A1 diet unless the components in my rifle were designed around that round.

 

[RyanScott]

Comparing M855 to A1 you’re looking at barrel/bolt changes about 25% more frequently. If you switch completely.

 

[st1650]

MK262 and M855A1 are for military, as a civilian you have much better choices. Even at 223 velocities, Fed Fusion MSR will expand at least to 150yrds out of a 10" barrel.

 

[Bakwa]

Comparing M855 to A1 you’re looking at barrel/bolt changes about 25% more frequently. If you switch completely.

Perhaps there is updated information out there that I'm unaware of. I just remember looking at studies about 2ish years ago that showed rifles on an A1 diet getting some sort of parts failure due to the higher than recommended pressures in almost half the round count as M855 on average.
The Marine Corps was observing the same studies taking place, which is why they were as skeptical as they were. MK 318 seemed to be their response to that same issue.
Either way, I understand that most of us certainly can't afford to switch completely [I know I sure can't] due to cost. So it's probably a non issue for most people who just want to see how it shoots out of their rifles.

 

[RyanScott]

I got numbers from someone in a position to know. It’s an increased cost for sure but not a dealbreaker. Marines were switching to A1 last I heard but the HKs didn’t like it.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Talked to two people with experience with A1 in the field. The report was that it was better than anything they had used short of a 240. One reported head shots leaving semi-complete brains in trees. A third party reported that A1 made M80 obsolete. It definitely fragments in soft tissue.

Any feedback on M80A1? How does M855A1/M80A1 compare to Mk 318/Mk 319?

 

[steelsnob47]

ok based on what i have at hand i opted to zero with the ae 50 grain jhp. the top grouping in pic. 50 yards and actually the 3 shots center was after adjustments of a high right 3 and a low left 3 trying to remember what increments the red dot clicks are, so not a representation of precision just getting it dialed.
after that just for reference i tried 77smks...lower grouping. not far off zero. guess i can use either and not worry about much zero change under 50 yards.

 

[RTH1800]

My SBR experience is with 11.5’s and 4 legged varmints only.
I have found them to be handy, stunningly accurate to 300M and woefully poor at killing with any ammo I have tried, even inside 50M.
This is contrary to what several reliable observers tell me about SBR’s in combat. I would have no hesitation to utilize one for defensive purposes.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Mozambique Drill at CQB distances tends to solve problems and keep them solved.

 

[bullseye13]

55gr bulk soft points have worked well for me on coyotes and a deer. Farthest coyote was only 250 yes, but he couldn't tell it wasn't a 16" barrel. Otherwise 75gr hp's work well.

 

[steelsnob47]

addendum...is it an absurd theory to surmise that a bullet designed for fast explosive fragmentation at 3200 down to 2500 fps window might act more like a controlled expansion mushroom at the 2500 down to 1600 fps window out of the shortened barrels?

 

[RTH1800]

I don’t know if absurd but my experience is they act more like ball ammo.

 

[fdkay]

Here's a neat little chart.
Note that the 5.56 was developed with a 20" barrel. The 55 grain load loses close to 600 FPS going from a 20 to a 10.
That is huge for a round that was designed to operate with high velocity and yaw/fragmentation as the wounding instrument.

 

[steelsnob47]

Here's a neat little chart.
Note that the 5.56 was developed with a 20" barrel. The 55 grain load loses close to 600 FPS going from a 20 to a 10.
That is huge for a round that was designed to operate with high velocity and yaw/fragmentation as the wounding instrument.View attachment 7375904

not understanding the relevance this chart possibly has on ammo selection for my pistol.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

not understanding the relevance this chart possibly has on ammo selection for my pistol.

He's just trying to tell us what we all already know. I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that 5.56 is amazing from a short barrel. To be honest, I'd just pick whatever load seems to fit your needs best.

Want velocity? Go light. Want "sToPpInG pOwEr?" Go heavy.
There's going to be a lot of arguing over X ballistic test vs Y ballistic test. At the end of the day, just do what your drill told you and, "AIM CENTER OF MASS, HIT CENTER OF MASS." Lmao.

But really, pretty much anything designed to expand/kill shit will do just that. We can sit here and compare notes all day long, but the reality is none of us will ever point a gun at anything other than hide/steel/paper. FWIW, we used to kill each other with .36" balls of lead at -69ft/s.

Edit to add: Remember that the gun industry, like any other, exists to sell things and promote consumerism. I love fulfilling my role as a consumer as much as the next guy, but if you take a step back and look at how close the race is between calibers/bullets/etc, the system exposes itself.

 

[Strykervet]

M855.

I handload my ammo so mine tend to be a bit more accurate than the factory stuff and at ~25gr. H335 they're pretty snappy too. I use 11.5" but recently got a 10.5" Switchblock barrel I'm waiting on Noveske to make a rail for (which I'm supposed to test and review when it comes out so we'll see!).

All Noveske barrels in my SBR's. They're accurate and reliable. Zero problems. The 11.5 AR is a 1MOA rifle with the M855 handloads:

I don't expect it to do much at range but it'll poke holes reliably at close to mid. .300BLK is better IMO and I have a few of those plus an 11.5" 6.5G that are all probably better than this one but for some reason I still dig this one.

But if you want compact and hard hitting too at close to mid range, consider a Tavor? Mine is in 9mm and an older SAR but you get the idea, they come in 5.56, .300BLK and there's a 7.62 version now. It's the EXACT same size as the 11.5" SBR w/stock collapsed but has a 17"bbl., it's also closer to the body and much faster to maneuver in tight spaces:

 

[fdkay]

not understanding the relevance this chart possibly has on ammo selection for my pistol.

Relevance is, use the proper tool for the job.
5.56 from short barrels sucks. Use a cartridge designed for short barrels.
Take a look at the Winchester 64 grain power point load. Don't concern yourself with the bonded load.

 

[steelsnob47]

Relevance is, use the proper tool for the job.
5.56 from short barrels sucks. Use a cartridge designed for short barrels.
Take a look at the Winchester 64 grain power point load. Don't concern yourself with the bonded load.

didnt ask what caliber is better. im using whats on hand. sorry you disapprove.

 

[RTH1800]

The issue with a short 5.56 is we mistakenly compare it to a 20” 5.56.Just as the .30 carbine was pitted against the 30/06.

Neither was ever intended to enter the battle rifle race.

Compare them to 9mm and .45 ACP. They significantly out preform either. That is the beauty of the short AR. Portability, firepower, energy compared to standard pistol cartridges.

Also remember that the 11.5” barrel length was arrived at due to being able to clear bulkheads on Naval vessels sideways.

 

[fdkay]

didnt ask what caliber is better. im using whats on hand. sorry you disapprove.

Well, you're the one that either bought or built it. You made the decision to use a poorly performing setup

 

[SRPowah]

Well, you're the one that either bought or built it. You made the decision to use a poorly performing setup

He means ammo availability dipshit.

 

[nick338]

Well, you're the one that either bought or built it. You made the decision to use a poorly performing setup

I'm at 2475 fps with 77 TMK out of an 11.5 and it's still explosive in gel. Not sure what sucks about that.

 

[RTH1800]

In the event of civil unrest those 300 BO folks are going to be digging out their 5.56 uppers and dusting them off.

 

[fdkay]

In the event of civil unrest those 300 BO folks are going to be digging out their 5.56 uppers and dusting them off.

why? Is there some mysterious unavailability?
Besides, that is the wonderful thing about the AR.

 

[RTH1800]

I’m not seeing pallets loaded with barrels of 300 BO ammo in warehouses. Might just be missing them?

Agree that is the beauty of the AR platform.

My friends who own 300 BO’s do not seem to have much ammo. One last evening mentioned he had 5 boxes. That is about average for the folks I know.

 

[fdkay]

I’m not seeing pallets loaded with barrels of 300 BO ammo in warehouses. Might just be missing them?

Agree that is the beauty of the AR platform.

My friends who own 300 BO’s do not seem to have much ammo. One last evening mentioned he had 5 boxes. That is about average for the folks I know.

Maybe because they aren't the type to stockpile 10000 rounds of ammo?

 

[bullseye13]

Lots of people look at the muzzle velocity instead of the results. I'll gladly take the velocity loss from a 10.5-11.5 barrel to gain a much more maneuverable rifle.

 

[bullseye13]

Maybe because they aren't the type to stockpile 10000 rounds of ammo?

That's not a stockpile. That's just a good start.

 

[Kycl2012]

My main issue with the 10.5 barrel is every ballistic gel test I have seen or read about shows over penetration for home defense. Both for the 5.56 and 300blk. 19-25 inches.

And tight corners in home defense would be the only reason I would get a short barrel. So I don’t see a point.

 

[nick338]

Maybe because they aren't the type to stockpile 10000 rounds of ammo?

Stop coming up with dumb ass excuses. 300 is a specialized cartridge and not readily available nearly as much as 5.56. It isn't even close. Military, police and anyone with an AR and a brain will be using 5.56 as their front line battle rifle because it works and if it doesn't your doing something wrong.

 

[SRPowah]

The .300BLK vs 5.56 in SBRs argument reminds me of the people that act like 7.62x39 hits an invisible wall at 400 yards, or .308 at 800 yards. Yes, there is a cartridge that is more effective in the platform. No one is arguing that. That is one of the reasons the 300BLK was developed and its damn good at it.

But go stand in front of a 10.5" 5.56 carbine at 300 yards and tell me its ineffective.

Like the OP said, I can find 5.56 on the shelf almost everywhere. Might not be the load I prefer, but it will go bang. I can't say that about 300blk in central Illinois or North Dakota. If its not on the shelf, I have much higher odds of finding a 5.56 supply before a 300blk cache.

 

[fdkay]

Stop coming up with dumb ass excuses. 300 is a specialized cartridge and not readily available nearly as much as 5.56. It isn't even close. Military, police and anyone with an AR and a brain will be using 5.56 as their front line battle rifle because it works and if it doesn't your doing something wrong.

Well, since we are specifically talking about 10.5 inch barrels, we talking about a specialized platform. You are apparently unable to comprehend the conversation.
I never said 5.56 doesn't work, I said it sucks was from short barrels.
Yes, the 300 no is a specialized cartridge designed specifically around a 10 inch barrel.
Your insistence on the AR as a proven battle rifle highlights your ignorance.

 

[RyanScott]

The AR is the most proven fighting rifle in history.

 

[nick338]

Well, since we are specifically talking about 10.5 inch barrels, we talking about a specialized platform. You are apparently unable to comprehend the conversation.
I never said 5.56 doesn't work, I said it sucks was from short barrels.
Yes, the 300 no is a specialized cartridge designed specifically around a 10 inch barrel.
Your insistence on the AR as a proven battle rifle highlights your ignorance.

I commented above on an 11.5 barrel and 77 TMK. Effective range with that combination is still 300-350 yards to reliably fragment. Even if a 10.5 barrel brought that down to 250 yards, its way farther than just about any engagement in 95% of situations the rifle was originally intended for.

So it doesn't even come close to sucking from short barrels, in fact it excels at it with the right ammo because you actually get more penetration at lower velocities instead of the 7-9" when the wrong round is fired at rifle length velocities.

 

[Qazwsx]

All the best militaries in the world and sof units exclusively have went with an AR platform for a reason.

I would go with the 262 out of those choices without losing any sleep over it.