Rifle Scopes Elcan 1-4x vs Acog+RMR, help me out.

[Islas82]

There’s probably a thread about this but my circumstances are a bit different so hear me out. So I recently got a new AR (LWRC DI) and I purchased an acog 3.5 LED .223 horseshoe reticle with a RMR on top as it’s designated sight, I have shot with it about 4 times now (it’s hot AF in Las Vegas) and I love it. That being said I can’t seem to get used to the idea of the RMR and honestly I have never used it other than zeroing it. Taking my face off the stock to jump on the RMR seems alien to me and can’t really shoot comfortably, and no I am not interested on a 45 degree mount either.

So I have been looking at te Elcan 1-4x to solve this issue, I like the way you can switch from 1-4 easily without breaking cheek placement and most things I have read and seen are positive. I know there’s complaints about weight and price but those things aren’t an issue to me. I would like to hear opinions from members that have had experience with both these sights, I also understand the argument that these guys are old technology and for the price point there’s better and newer things out there, like many LPVO’s but I have owned a few and am not Interested in going back to that.

I have heard complaints about the zero shift when switching magnification on the Elcan but this seems to have been resolved with newer generations, can anyone verify this?

Thanks!

 

[TheOE800]

I have heard complaints about the zero shift when switching magnification on the Elcan but this seems to have been resolved with newer generations, can anyone verify this?

Zero on 4x, not 1x.

 

[nn8734]

There’s probably a thread about this but my circumstances are a bit different so hear me out. So I recently got a new AR (LWRC DI) and I purchased an acog 3.5 LED .223 horseshoe reticle with a RMR on top as it’s designated sight, I have shot with it about 4 times now (it’s hot AF in Las Vegas) and I love it. That being said I can’t seem to get used to the idea of the RMR and honestly I have never used it other than zeroing it. Taking my face off the stock to jump on the RMR seems alien to me and can’t really shoot comfortably, and no I am not interested on a 45 degree mount either.

So I have been looking at te Elcan 1-4x to solve this issue, I like the way you can switch from 1-4 easily without breaking cheek placement and most things I have read and seen are positive. I know there’s complaints about weight and price but those things aren’t an issue to me. I would like to hear opinions from members that have had experience with both these sights, I also understand the argument that these guys are old technology and for the price point there’s better and newer things out there, like many LPVO’s but I have owned a few and am not Interested in going back to that.

I have heard complaints about the zero shift when switching magnification on the Elcan but this seems to have been resolved with newer generations, can anyone verify this?

Thanks!

The Elcan 1-4 is a great optic, perhaps the best all around sight for a carbine out there. I had one w/the 7.62 reticle and may pick up another one and would take it any day if the week over any acog. Better glass, little bit more eye relief.…I ran an rmr on top. Reason being is it’s a lot easier to acquire a sight package via the RMR when wearing a pack, plate carrier and/or both. Plus you can aim passively under bnvgs more effectively with the higher red dot placement (appx 2.25” above the receiver surface). The RMR was used for anything ~75m and in; I’d drop down to 4x Elcan for anything beyond that. Plus if your moving while shooting, you have a much better fov and peripheral with the RMR vs looking through the tube and that’s with shooting both eyes open.

Running the rmr (or anything in a high rise set up) does take a little getting used to but I much prefer it over traditional 1.5” sight height once I got used to it; maintaining a cheek weld for close-in stuff isn’t necessary imo.

No zero shift between 1 and 4x when zeroed at 100m on 4x.

The only “con” for me was the weight but everything is a trade off…

 

[Islas82]

The Elcan 1-4 is a great optic, perhaps the best all around sight for a carbine out there. I had one w/the 7.62 reticle and may pick up another one and would take it any day if the week over any acog. Better glass, little bit more eye relief.…I ran an rmr on top. Reason being is it’s a lot easier to acquire a sight package via the RMR when wearing a pack, plate carrier and/or both. Plus you can aim passively under bnvgs more effectively with the higher red dot placement (appx 2.25” above the receiver surface). The RMR was used for anything ~75m and in; I’d drop down to 4x Elcan for anything beyond that. Plus if your moving while shooting, you have a much better fov and peripheral with the RMR vs looking through the tube and that’s with shooting both eyes open.

Running the rmr (or anything in a high rise set up) does take a little getting used to but I much prefer it over traditional 1.5” sight height once I got used to it; maintaining a cheek weld for close-in stuff isn’t necessary imo.

No zero shift between 1 and 4x when zeroed at 100m on 4x.

The only “con” for me was the weight but everything is a trade off…

Very good points on the function of the RMR and I can see how it makes sense in military/LE situations.

 

[Mister Ridge]

Try tilting the rifle and looking through the rmr with your offside eye. I'm right handed, so I shoulder the rifle and then cant it so that the rmr is in front of my left eye when I want to use it.

 

[Islas82]

Try tilting the rifle and looking through the rmr with your offside eye. I'm right handed, so I shoulder the rifle and then cant it so that the rmr is in front of my left eye when I want to use it.

Yea I saw a video of a guy doing that, I tried it out and it works well.

 

[taboopineapple]

Not to press the issue, but why don't you want an offset mount? I'm like you and hate the piggyback chinweld. Sure it's better for passive shooting but I'm just a civilian and don't shoot enough with nods for it to matter. I had an arisaka offset mount and it was very comfortable to shoot with.

I currently own an 1/4 elcan and used to own a TA31/offset. Honestly I liked the acog setup more as the Elcan's eye relief is a little short and I sometimes get scope shadow just shooting normally, although it probably doesn't impact my splits. Also the Elcan has a warmish tint and very noticeable scope body which makes it a little less pleasant to look through compared to the acog setup, but again these are just little gripes that don't really affect the functionality. Only reason I switched to the elcan is because my Aug needed an optic setup and the offset would gas me in the face.

 

[Islas82]

Not to press the issue, but why don't you want an offset mount? I'm like you and hate the piggyback chinweld. Sure it's better for passive shooting but I'm just a civilian and don't shoot enough with nods for it to matter. I had an arisaka offset mount and it was very comfortable to shoot with.

I currently own an 1/4 elcan and used to own a TA31/offset. Honestly I liked the acog setup more as the Elcan's eye relief is a little short and I sometimes get scope shadow just shooting normally, although it probably doesn't impact my splits. Also the Elcan has a warmish tint and very noticeable scope body which makes it a little less pleasant to look through compared to the acog setup, but again these are just little gripes that don't really affect the functionality. Only reason I switched to the elcan is because my Aug needed an optic setup and the offset would gas me in the face.

I thought about it, there’s good arguments in favor of a 45 degree mount but as everything it’s something that you would have to train on and set up, I guess the idea of just switching a lever makes more sense to my style of shooting.

You feel the eye relief is worse than the acog? That’s the reason why I got the TA11 because of the added eye relief.

 

[TheHorta]

Elevated RMR is perfect for running NODs. Love the Elcan — still my favorite — but an ACOG/RMR is growing on me, and it’s super small and light. Popping a Voodoo/UTM/RH25 in front of it makes for an awesome, versatile setup.

 

[taboopineapple]

I thought about it, there’s good arguments in favor of a 45 degree mount but as everything it’s something that you would have to train on and set up, I guess the idea of just switching a lever makes more sense to my style of shooting.

You feel the eye relief is worse than the acog? That’s the reason why I got the TA11 because of the added eye relief.

The Elcan definitely has better eye relief than the TA31. But when shooting quickly I'm using the offset so the TA31 eye relief really wasn't a big deal to me.

I think you'd be surprised how intuitive tilting the rifle is for switching mag. I've shot lpvo's and Elcans more than I have with an Acog/offset but still mess up changing magnification sometimes while it's pretty hard to mess up with the acog/offset. Part of the reason all the cool internet operators are putting offsets on everything now.

 

[FatBoy]

I tried the 45 offset RMR with an LPVO and it works wonderful strong side but I can’t find the dot at all support side. Also, I find it almost impossible to use on the lower 3rd of a VTAC.

I know the 12 o’clock Red Dot is out of fashion, but it’s easy to use on either shoulder, shooting through horizontal slots left of right side as well as under a vehicle, etc. (huge need for this, right?)

I’m sure with some extra training I could find a way around the 45 offset in non standard positions but why? Would I like a “better” ACOG? Yes, but the damn thing still works pretty well almost 30 years later.

 

[Islas82]

I tried the 45 offset RMR with an LPVO and it works wonderful strong side but I can’t find the dot at all support side. Also, I find it almost impossible to use on the lower 3rd of a VTAC.

I know the 12 o’clock Red Dot is out of fashion, but it’s easy to use on either shoulder, shooting through horizontal slots left of right side as well as under a vehicle, etc. (huge need for this, right?)

I’m sure with some extra training I could find a way around the 45 offset in non standard positions but why? Would I like a “better” ACOG? Yes, but the damn thing still works pretty well almost 30 years later.

Another reason why I want to stick with this class of optics like the Elcan, durability.

 

[GreenMushroom]

I'd give the top mount rmr a bit more practice. The problem is you're fighting years of practice getting a solid cheek weld. Just relax and bring your head upright and the dots right there. I know its not that easy but it is that simple. Having that instant transition can't be matched by a variable. It didn't come naturally to me until I started shooting at night which forces you to bring your head upright.

 

[pmclaine]

Both would be 1000 times improved if they had an ocular focus with plus/minus a diopter or two.

 

[YesLegs25]

I have larped with both setups for training/classes, and for fun. I give a slight edge to the Elcan based on my level of experience, and preference. However, it's with certain nuances.

The 1x on the Elcan was kind of a pain in the ass for me. Though it is 1x, you are still constrained by a somewhat tight eye box, as it is a 1x prism. This may change your view of the Elcan as a potential solution for your current concern. I ended up just leaving the Elcan at 4x, and adding an Aimpoint T2 on top using the Reptilia Saddle. This made the Elcan a much better solution for me. If you wanted to, you could save yourself some money by buying a SpecterOS 4x instead of a SpecterDR 1/4x, and simply add a quality red dot on top. For me, the red dot in the T2 is easy to find, as I essentially just change from a cheek weld (Elcan) to chin weld (Red Dot). My biggest issue that I had to work through with the Elcan was the eye relief. It took a few sessions for me to get comfortable with it, but now it doesn't bother me. Regarding the concern of zero shift, it does not apply in my case, as I am only shooting the Elcan at 4x. I did not notice any considerable zero shift prior to having the T2 on top though.

With the ACOG + RMR combo, I felt this was very similar in functionality to the Elcan + T2. I was using a TA31F with 5.56 Red Chevron reticle. The glass rocked, the eye relief sucked (much like the Elcan), and the RMR was adequate for what I was doing with it. I did the same cheek weld (ACOG) or chin weld (RMR) in this case.

I ended up staying with the Elcan + T2 for the time being, due to personal preference. I like the reticle in the Elcan a little better, and I feel the T2 is superior to the RMR in terms of red dot functionality in this case. There is nothing wrong at all with the ACOG + RMR setup, especially when you consider that you can get the ACOG + RMR setup done for considerably less money. Even now with your current setup, you could try adding a cheek riser to your stock that will allow you to get a firmer cheek weld when on the ACOG, and potentially an easier reference point for a chin weld when switching to the RMR. I imagine moving your head around with zero connection to the stock is making it difficult for you to find a repeatable reference point with that RMR based on what you had described in your post.

My recommendation to you would be to do what you need to do to buy both. Buy an Elcan used for $1,300 to $1,600. Don't pay any more than that for it. They pop up pretty regularly on this exchange, or at ARFCOM. After giving the ACOG and the Elcan each a few sessions, you can make a much better decision for yourself. You'll make your money back if you decide to sell the Elcan thereafter. This feedback is just based on my experience and preference with both setups. I'm not a doctor.

 

[Islas82]

I have larped with both setups for training/classes, and for fun. I give a slight edge to the Elcan based on my level of experience, and preference. However, it's with certain nuances.

The 1x on the Elcan was kind of a pain in the ass for me. Though it is 1x, you are still constrained by a somewhat tight eye box, as it is a 1x prism. This may change your view of the Elcan as a potential solution for your current concern. I ended up just leaving the Elcan at 4x, and adding an Aimpoint T2 on top using the Reptilia Saddle. This made the Elcan a much better solution for me. If you wanted to, you could save yourself some money by buying a SpecterOS 4x instead of a SpecterDR 1/4x, and simply add a quality red dot on top. For me, the red dot in the T2 is easy to find, as I essentially just change from a cheek weld (Elcan) to chin weld (Red Dot). My biggest issue that I had to work through with the Elcan was the eye relief. It took a few sessions for me to get comfortable with it, but now it doesn't bother me. Regarding the concern of zero shift, it does not apply in my case, as I am only shooting the Elcan at 4x. I did not notice any considerable zero shift prior to having the T2 on top though.

With the ACOG + RMR combo, I felt this was very similar in functionality to the Elcan + T2. I was using a TA31F with 5.56 Red Chevron reticle. The glass rocked, the eye relief sucked (much like the Elcan), and the RMR was adequate for what I was doing with it. I did the same cheek weld (ACOG) or chin weld (RMR) in this case.

I ended up staying with the Elcan + T2 for the time being, due to personal preference. I like the reticle in the Elcan a little better, and I feel the T2 is superior to the RMR in terms of red dot functionality in this case. There is nothing wrong at all with the ACOG + RMR setup, especially when you consider that you can get the ACOG + RMR setup done for considerably less money. Even now with your current setup, you could try adding a cheek riser to your stock that will allow you to get a firmer cheek weld when on the ACOG, and potentially an easier reference point for a chin weld when switching to the RMR. I imagine moving your head around with zero connection to the stock is making it difficult for you to find a repeatable reference point with that RMR based on what you had described in your post.

My recommendation to you would be to do what you need to do to buy both. Buy an Elcan used for $1,300 to $1,600. Don't pay any more than that for it. They pop up pretty regularly on this exchange, or at ARFCOM. After giving the ACOG and the Elcan each a few sessions, you can make a much better decision for yourself. You'll make your money back if you decide to sell the Elcan thereafter. This feedback is just based on my experience and preference with both setups. I'm not a doctor.

Thank you for this, it makes lots of sense and I didn’t know about the SpecterOS 4x will definitely look into it.

 

[Islas82]

On closer inspection it would be difficult to run a 45 degree mount because the battery compartment on the LED acog gets on the way, so even if I wanted to give that a shot it wouldn’t work.

 

[YesLegs25]

On closer inspection it would be difficult to run a 45 degree mount because the battery compartment on the LED acog gets on the way, so even if I wanted to give that a shot it wouldn’t work.

Maybe I didn't specify clearly, but I'm not running them at 45 degrees on the ACOG or on the Elcan. The T2 is on top of the Elcan (90 degrees) using a Reptilia Saddle, and the RMR is on top of the ACOG (90 degrees) using the Trijicon RM35 mount. There is no horizontal offset, which makes it easy to just switch vertically between cheek weld and chin weld. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[McCrazy]

A lot of good info has been posted here so I won't go over it again.

What I will add is I have used ACOGs and Elcans quite a bit as we had them in the military and I was responsible for the guns and optics for multiple SF teams.

I think in my career I saw 2 ACOGs break and 1 had been run over by a truck (literally). The tritium tends to burn out before they wear out.

The Elcans on the other hand were much newer than most of the ACOGs and were much more prone to breaking. Seems like every year I would have to turn 1 or 2 out of 12 in and not all 12 were even being used. I wasn't impressed.

I do agree the RMR mounted on top of ACOGs is a less than ideal mounting solution.

 

[FatBoy]

I do agree the RMR mounted on top of ACOGs is a less than ideal mounting solution.

Curious why? Mount weaker than the old Docter/JPoint? Cheek weld? Or….. ?

 

[McCrazy]

There is no cheek weld.

At best you can put the bottom of your jaw on top of your stock (hence the earlier jaw weld comments).

This is less than ideal as your head isn't really locked in and can wobble around as you now have hard against hard (bone on stock) instead of soft against hard (cheek against stock). The skin on the bottom of your jaw also slides around a lot.

 

[Islas82]

Maybe I didn't specify clearly, but I'm not running them at 45 degrees on the ACOG or on the Elcan. The T2 is on top of the Elcan (90 degrees) using a Reptilia Saddle, and the RMR is on top of the ACOG (90 degrees) using the Trijicon RM35 mount. There is no horizontal offset, which makes it easy to just switch vertically between cheek weld and chin weld. Hopefully that makes sense.

Yea I know what you meant, I was just commenting on my current set up for the members that were recommending a 45 degree mount.

 

[RaiderPower]

I've got an ACOG and an offset that I shoot in our local 3 gun matches occasionally. I end up using the RMR a lot more than the ACOG given the ranges we typically shoot. I find I do a lot less (as in no) fishing for the dot with the offset vs. a 12:00 mount. I haven't put in the reps to get good with a 12:00 mount so that's definitely part of it, but I do prefer the offset and had a pretty easy time learning that dot position. I don't have nods a a consideration yet, but I can definitely see how that would be a benefit.

All of that said, I'm a lot faster with an LPVO.

 

[Islas82]

I've got an ACOG and an offset that I shoot in our local 3 gun matches occasionally. I end up using the RMR a lot more than the ACOG given the ranges we typically shoot. I find I do a lot less (as in no) fishing for the dot with the offset vs. a 12:00 mount. I haven't put in the reps to get good with a 12:00 mount so that's definitely part of it, but I do prefer the offset and had a pretty easy time learning that dot position. I don't have nods a a consideration yet, but I can definitely see how that would be a benefit.

All of that said, I'm a lot faster with an LPVO.

Even taking into account mag ring manipulation? That’s cool, yea I think am gonna give this 45 degree thing a try and see how it works out for me. I have been reading and watching videos about it and it just makes sense.

 

[GreenMushroom]

On closer inspection it would be difficult to run a 45 degree mount because the battery compartment on the LED acog gets on the way, so even if I wanted to give that a shot it wouldn’t work.

Don't know the dimensions on an 11 but on an led 31 I used a ggg 45 and 1/2 riser. Was a very nice setup. Little bit of shadow at 430 but didn't stick way out and just a tiny tilt and the dot was right there. Probably need different pieces for an 11 but it's an idea. I liked this better than 12 o'clock but it wasn't great for nighttime.

 

[Islas82]

Don't know the dimensions on an 11 but on an led 31 I used a ggg 45 and 1/2 riser. Was a very nice setup. Little bit of shadow at 430 but didn't stick way out and just a tiny tilt and the dot was right there. Probably need different pieces for an 11 but it's an idea. I liked this better than 12 o'clock but it wasn't great for nighttime.

View attachment 7919790

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Cool! Good to know, what stock were you using?

 

[GreenMushroom]

B5

 

[Islas82]

Just in case you were wondering what the set up ended up being. After a lot of reading and watching I decided to go with the ACOG and 45 RMR combo, I love it so far. Got the ADM mount that lifts and pushes the optic back and the T.Rex 45 degree mount that fits perfectly under the ADM. After much practice and troubleshooting I decide to mount the RMR closer rather than in front and it’s working great so far.

 

[pmclaine]

Just in case you were wondering what the set up ended up being. After a lot of reading and watching I decided to go with the ACOG and 45 RMR combo, I love it so far. Got the ADM mount that lifts and pushes the optic back and the T.Rex 45 degree mount that fits perfectly under the ADM. After much practice and troubleshooting I decide to mount the RMR closer rather than in front and it’s working great so far.

Love Trijicon…..hate wearing glasses.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I tried the 45 offset RMR with an LPVO and it works wonderful strong side but I can’t find the dot at all support side. Also, I find it almost impossible to use on the lower 3rd of a VTAC.

I know the 12 o’clock Red Dot is out of fashion, but it’s easy to use on either shoulder, shooting through horizontal slots left of right side as well as under a vehicle, etc. (huge need for this, right?)

I’m sure with some extra training I could find a way around the 45 offset in non standard positions but why? Would I like a “better” ACOG? Yes, but the damn thing still works pretty well almost 30 years later.

12 o'clock may not be in fashion, but there's no downside once you get dialed in on both shoulders. I personally run 1.50" mounts . Sight picture gets squirrely in anything higher than that for me.

 

[FatBoy]

12 o'clock may not be in fashion, but there's no downside once you get dialed in on both shoulders. I personally run 1.50" mounts . Sight picture gets squirrely in anything higher than that for me.

Nice setups.

I’m think I’m going to move my 2.5-10x24 NXS onto a Geissele 1.5 and use a Reptillian front cap for an RMR on my wife’s RECCE. Then move the 32mm NXS back into my mod0 and do the same.

I’m almost certain I’m going to buy a NX8 MOA and do the same on one of my 14.5s.

The 1-10 gen3 is probably getting moved to a 20” DMR and I’ll run it as is.

Fair chance I’m going to acquire another TA01 NSN as well. Such a light, simple , capable setup .