Electronic hearing protection is damaging your hearing (range report)

Elitespotter

Private
Minuteman
Feb 26, 2013
2
0
Just to keep a long story short. I was at the range today and I use electronic hearing protection when a first year college student studying to be a doctor gave me a whole big lecture, and to be honest it went way over my head. But I think the long and short of what he said was something about vibrations hitting the bone is what causes the damage and not the perception of loudness and that electronic protection just cancels the perception but doesnt stop the vibrations.

Anyway, gentlemen, Im very concerned when it comes to my hearing and Im hoping maybe theres an audiologist (or some other expert) amongst us that can maybe shed some light on this. And maybe get some recommendations to hearing protection products that they would personally recommend.
 
Well then any hearing protection would allow damage as electronic protection is sealed and is just cutting the sound out when it's over a certain level and allowing the passive protection to work.

If it was just opposite noise wave lengths canceling out the sound and there was no passive protection then I could say its plausible but electronic muffs are quite simple in there function and operate with help of passive protection.

No offense to that student but sounds like he does not understand the concept and should defiantly keep studying to be a doctor.
 
Sounds like he is an undergrad who aspires to go to medical school and doesnt quite have his anatomy on lock yet.
All sound is vibration and when sound waves get into the ear they vibrate the tympanic membrane (ear drum). These vibrations are transferred through a series of small bones (incus, malleus, stapes) to the cochlea which is filled with a fluid. Deep in the cochlea there are hair like receptors that sense these fluid vibrations and send the appropriate signals to the brain.
Now, not all vibration is sound, it must occur in certain frequencies to cause the chain reaction of sound transduction in the ear and more specifically the captors. Audible damage occurs when the HAIR like receptors become damaged. Any vibrations out of the auditory realm are irrelevant.
In the end, SOUND IS VIBRATION, and the fact that if you turn off your electronic muffs, they still adequately dampen sound. The electronics really just help you hear everything else on the range.
 
The audiologist that DoD sends a lot of us guys with hearing loss/ringing/etc seems to think that electro-muffs of good quality do just fine.

If the DoD is betting VA money on her opinion it's well founded enough for me.
 
He is wrong
In a normal ear air conduction is more intense than bone conduction..vibrations mean nothing
In a partially or completely deaf ear bone conduction of vibration is preferentially perceived compared to air conduction.
In fact one of the diagnostic tests of hearing is to place a vibrating tuning fork outside the ear then on the mastoid bone behind the ear and ask which is louder.
For normal hearing the air conductin is perceived as louder. Physical diagnosis 101...
 
Think of it this way. Electronic muffs are just regular muffs with microphones on the outside and speakers on the inside. When you shoot or the mics pick up a sound loud enough for the sensors to deem harmful, it just turns the speakers off and doesnt let the sound through. If they didnt actually work, when they were turned off the sound would be really loud which isnt the case.
 
Wow. I just learned a lot. I definitely think Doogie Howser wannabe was incorrect. Ironically I just ordered my first pair of electronic ear muffs last night on Amazon. I have been using the same pair of passive ear muffs for over twenty years and thought I would get the latest greatest in hearing protection. Or at least a step above my old set. Very interesting info.
 
I wear ear plugs made by Kasier Hospital and use shotgun ear muffs for protection. It is difficult for me to hear someone talking but I can hear gunfire down the line and I flench and jerk the trigger. Sever shooters suggested the electronic ear muffs but after reading the above comments I'm not sure they would provide anymore sound suppresion. JesseBB
 
While I don't fully agree with him, this does raise a good point, and for me, concern.....go brush your teeth, then brush with plugs and muffs in/on.
It's pretty damn loud.
I always shoot plugs and muffs, always have, even as a kid. I never experienced shooter's headache or facial/sinus fatigue, even shooting big guns,
ie, 8-bores, 375JDJ, 50AE, etc.
However, since becoming a reciprocating action rifle shooter (AR's, and admittedly suppressed AR's and SBR's) my tolerance for moderate volume shooting
has seriously decreased. The bone and face conduction of all that reciprocating clatter seems to be the culprit (along with the ejection port), and I really
notice it shooting suppressed AR's..
With "non-reciprocators" the explosion is several inches out front; all this noise under my cheek is troublesome.
I went to AR's because of ergonomics and Geissele triggers, but I think a chassis-clad precision bolt gun is in my future.....don't want a lifetime of tinnitus/vertigo.
 
I bought a high dollar set of electronic ear muffs with a high decibel rating and just found them wanting. I have experienced hearing loss over the years and have tinnitus as well. I finally went to the highest rated passive muffs I could find and use them exclusively.
 
He was most likely talking about active noise cancellation. In that case, the sound passes through the headphones (note: not muffs) just fine, and an inverse sound wave is played over the existing sound to "cancel" the noise. Read up on destructive interference. If you turn the device off, there is no noise reduction.

The electronic muffs commonly used for shooting are the exact opposite. Like people mentioned, they block sound using passive noise attenuation, no different than normal muffs or earplugs. Then they mic through the sound that they want you to hear, such as low decibel noise.
 
After loosing a noticeable percentage of my hearing one afternoon, I have had several long talks with the Medical Doctors at the University of Kansas Med School. These MD's included two Audiologists and one ENT Surgeon.

Important points that all three of them made or agreed to:

1. Hearing damage is permanent.
2. Hearing damage is irreversible.
3. Hearing damage is cumulative(it ALL adds up, shooting, saws, cars and concerts)
4. If you wear muffs and plugs, the NRR are not added together, but there is increased protection.
5. DO NOT IGNORE THE DAMAGE CAUSED BY NOISE TRANSMITTED FROM THE SKULL TO YOUR EAR.

I put the last one in caps. The warnings were quite clear, particularly regarding prolonged exposure to high intensity sound(gunfire). Take two products with equal NRR of say 21, one a muff and one a in the ear style. Hands down, the recommendation was the muffs, every time.

The only time I dont wear plugs AND muffs is when I hunt. I only wear one or the other then.
 
In all seriousness, what is the best hearing protection? I use foam plugs right now, but I can't hear anything around me when I'm not shooting. I would like to get the peltor/msa design but I don't need/have comms, so it kind of defeats the purpous spending $300 on a set of ears im not gonna get the most out of. I do have a chance to get a custom pair of Westone's noise canceling ear plugs made for free a $1800 value.

What's your opinions? And no I don't care about getting 1800 bucks for free if its not the best option.
 
My cousin is an Audiologist for the VA I forwarded this thread on to her, I'll be sure to post her thoughts. I use the electronic ear plugs (surefire) and I already have hearing loss from previous military service but I'm a little concerned at the possibility. The OPs encounter makes sense but I'm far from a specialist. Like I said I'll forward on her thoughts.
 
What a bunch a crap. If it does not sound loud to you it is not hurting your hearing. Under Obama Care one of the requirements to become a Dr is probable being dumber than a box of rocks.
 
He doesn't know what is talking about, or at least, misunderstanding some of it.

It seems he is thinking of active noise canceling (like Bose Quiet Comfort headsets). These generate a repeat of the sound, but 180 degrees out of phase. So the two cancel each other out. But with current technology, they only work reasonably on continuous noise, not intermittant noise. I use Bose on airlines, and it cuts the drone of the engines and the wind noise significantly, but does nothing to stop the sound of the screaming baby. NO help with shooting noise, which is impact noice.

ALL hearing protection works by blocking the sound getting into your ear. As has been mentioned, electronic SHOOTING hearing protection uses electronics to amplify sounds, but cut out the sound when a shot is fired. When the electronics cut out, it works as a passive muff. A bit less noise reduction due to the holes in the shell.

For very high level sounds you can use plugs and muffs. But there is an upper limit of about 45 dB noise reduction at a maximum. So a 33 NRR plug and a 29 NRR muff combined, are no better then a 25 NNR plus and 20 NNR muff combined. This is due to bone conduction. Once the sound pressure level gets to a certain level, the noise is now conducted by the bone of your skull driectly into the middle ear.

Electronic muffs do have one caveat. It depends on how the cut the sound when they are overloaded. They can cut out entirely, or clip the sound out of the amplifier to some low level. If they clip (which is how many of them work), you get "ringing" in the circuit. So while the average sound level out of the amplifier is at an acceptable range, there can be peaks that are high enough to be of concern. A better circuit would be to use a compression circuit, but these are more expensive.

Doctors fix or repair or treat once you have the problem. You need a professional on one of the fields that actually PREVENT things like hearing loss. Like an Industrial Hygienist or a Safety Professional. And I am both. :)
 
Since everyone seems to be an expert, here is a terribly formatted version of a great article that is from The American Academy of Otolaryngology - head and neck Surgery Foundation. Matthew Parker Branch, MD is the cited author. Read for the verdict of how well do plugs work vs. muffs or suppressors. And not to sound like a suppressor salesman, but they are your only good option. If you want an original copy (can I say that?), email me at allthingsprojectile at gmail.com. Or Google it yourself.



Original Research—Otology and Neurotology
Comparison of Muzzle Suppression and
Ear-Level Hearing Protection in
Firearm Use
Otolaryngology–
Head and Neck Surgery
144(6) 950–953
. American Academy of
Otolaryngology—Head and Neck
Surgery Foundation 2011
Reprints and permission:
sagepub.com/journalsPermissions.nav
DOI: 10.1177/0194599811398872
http://otojournal.org
Matthew Parker Branch, MD1
No sponsorships or competing interests have been disclosed for this article.
Abstract
Objective. To compare noise reduction of commercially available
ear-level hearing protection (muffs/inserts) to that of
firearm muzzle suppressors.
Setting. Experimental sound measurements under consistent
environmental conditions.
Subjects. None.
Study Design and Methods. Muzzle suppressors for 2
pistol and 2 rifle calibers were tested using the Bruel &
Kjaer 2209 sound meter and Bruel & Kjaer 4136
microphone calibrated with the Bruel & Kjaer Pistonphone
using Military-Standard 1474D placement protocol. Five
shots were recorded unsuppressed and 10 shots
suppressed under consistent environmental conditions.
Sound reduction was then compared with the real-world
noise reduction rate of the best available ear-level
protectors.
Results. All suppressors offered significantly greater noise
reduction than ear-level protection, usually greater than
50% better. Noise reduction of all ear-level protectors is
unable to reduce the impulse pressure below 140 dB for
certain common firearms, an international standard for prevention
of sensorineural hearing loss.
Conclusion. Modern muzzle-level suppression is vastly superior
to ear-level protection and the only available form of
suppression capable of making certain sporting arms safe
for hearing. The inadequacy of standard hearing protectors
with certain common firearms is not recognized by most
hearing professionals or their patients and should affect
the way hearing professionals counsel patients and the
public.
Keywords
tinnitus, sensorineural hearing loss, noise-induced hearing
loss, firearm suppression, hearing protection
Received September 15, 2010; revised December 20, 2010; accepted
January 11, 2011.
Noise-
induced inner ear injury is a substantial cause
of preventable disability in the United States.
Approximately 15% of Americans between the ages
of 20 and 69 years—or 26 million Americans—have hearing
loss that may have been caused in part by exposure to
loud sounds or noise at work or in leisure activities.
1
Subjective tinnitus affects approximately 50 million
Americans (12%-15% of the adult population)
2-4
and often
accompanies sensorineural hearing loss in patients with
a history of loud noise exposure.
5-9
Recreational use of firearms is a significant cause of
noise and related ear injury in America.
10
There are approximately
more than 250 million privately owned firearms in
the United States,
11,12
and the number increases about 4.5
million per year.
13
This rate of increase rose by 14%
for 2007-2008.14 Unlike industrial exposure, hearing protection
during recreational firearm use is not regulated or
enforced. This represents one of the largest neglected areas
of advocacy for prevention of ear injury.
Ear-level hearing protection is poorly understood by
patients and hearing specialists alike. Far from being a panacea,
ear-level protection rarely, if ever, confers the level of
protection or noise reduction ratio (NRR) advertised. NRRs
are determined using laboratory tests in continuous noise (not
impulse sounds such as gunfire) and are not useful for determining
the actual level of protection achieved by a given
individual in a particular environment.
15
How much protection is afforded by ear-level protection?
The National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health
(NIOSH) recommends that earmuffs be considered to have
25% less NRR than stated and formable earplugs 50%
less.
16
The most common commercially available ear
protection has an advertised NRR of 19 to 25 dB. The highest
rated NRR are 31 dB and are less common. The
Occupational Safety and Health Administration sets 140 dB
1
Private practice in otolaryngology, Corsicana, Texas, USA
This article was presented at the 2010 AAO-HNSF Annual Meeting & OTO
EXPO; September 26-29, 2010; Boston, Massachusetts.
Corresponding Author:
Matthew Parker Branch, MD, 400 Hospital Drive, Suite 115, Corsicana, TX
75110
Email: [email protected]
as the safe threshold for single-impulse sound exposure.
Using the adjusted NRR levels, most hearing protection
(NRR 19-25 dB) is unable to make hearing safe a firearm
producing an impulse sound louder than 149.5 to 154 dB.
The best available ear-level protection (earmuffs, NRR 31
dB) is unable to make hearing safe any firearm louder than
163 dB under the best of conditions. According to Berger
et al,
16
even these adjusted figures are likely unrealistic.
This review of 20 published studies demonstrated far
worse performance than the corrected NRR suggests: the
laboratory NRRs consistently overestimated the real-world
NRRs by 140% to 2000% (Figures 1 and 2).
16
It is unlikely,
however, that most consumers of hearing protection have
any idea what the NRR is of the products they purchase or
what level of protection is necessary to make their particular
firearm safe for hearing.
Hiram Maxim first introduced and marketed muzzle suppressors
in the 1920s in the United States. These devices
either attach to the muzzle (by way of threading the barrel
or by proprietary quick attachment mechanisms) or are integrated
into the barrel. Muzzle suppressors allow the heated
gases from the barrel to expand into a series of chambers or
baffles, cooling and slowing the gas’s exit from the barrel.
The result is a shorter, quieter sound signature. The basic
design of suppressors has changed little over the years, but
modern design and manufacturing have improved their
sound reduction effectiveness. Unlike ear-level protection,
muzzle suppressors are relatively easy to use in a consistent,
repeatable fashion. They confer protection for the shooter
and bystanders alike and allow interpersonal conversation
and situational awareness of sounds not afforded by earlevel
devices. They are also legal in most states, although
their ownership and transfer are regulated by the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF&E) and
requires a $200 tax and somewhat lengthy process for registration,
delaying use of the device for weeks or months
from the time of purchase. Importantly, it is relatively
simple to demonstrate their actual noise reduction capability
compared with ear-level devices.
Study Design
We hypothesized that modern muzzle suppression has
a demonstrable superiority to ear-level protection due to
the unpredictable protection of ear devices and improbability
of one-size-fits-all products. We tested common
pistol and rifle calibers with and without muzzle suppression
using strict military/industrial standard sound measurement
for impulse noise. We recorded the impulse noise
in decibels and compared the sound levels with and without
suppression. We then compared the average noise
reduction of the suppressors to likely NRR levels of earlevel
products.
Methods
The tests were conducted using the Bruel & Kjaer (B&K)
2209 sound meter with a B&K 4136 microphone calibrated
with the B&K 4220 Pistonphone. Calibration was checked
after the tests to verify there were no shifts in calibration
during the tests. All equipment has been certified and tested
so that it can be traced back to the National Institute of
Standards and Technology’s standards. The meter and
weapon are also placed in accordance with Military-
Standard 1474D protocol. Five shots were fired to establish
the unsuppressed level, and then 10 shots were fired with
the suppressor attached.
17
For the pistol tests, we used 9 mm and 45 ACP semiautomatic
pistols (Table 1). These are very popular sporting
rounds as well as common military standard calibers. The
rifle tests were performed with a semiautomatic 5.56 mm/
223 caliber round, as is used in the AR-15 style civilian
rifle and the NATO military M16/M4 carbine rifle, and a
bolt-action 7.62 3 51 mm/308 caliber rifle, also a common
sporting round and NATO military standard round.
The suppressors used are commercially available and
legally obtained by way of the standard BATF&E registration
process for civilian ownership. No institutional review
or ethics committee approval was deemed necessary or
sought for this study.
Figure 2. Noise reduction ratio (NRR) hearing protection provides
in the real world: earplugs.
Figure 1. Noise reduction ratio (NRR) hearing protection provides
in the real world: earmuffs.
Branch 951

Results
The average unsuppressed sound levels for the 9 mm pistol
at military standard recording distance (1 m to the left of
the muzzle) was 160.5 dB and 157.7 dB at the ear of
the shooter. The average suppressed levels were 127.4 dB
and 129.6 dB, respectively (difference of 33.1 dB and
28.1 dB).
The average unsuppressed sound levels for the 45 ACP
pistol at military standard recording distance and the shooter’
s ear was 162.5 dB. The average suppressed levels were
131.8 dB and 128.5 dB, respectively (difference of 30.7 dB
and 33.9 dB, respectively). The suppressor for the 45 ACP
is also designed to function wet (filled with 10 mL of water
for additional noise reduction). The average wet suppressed
level was 121 dB (difference of 41.5 dB).
The average unsuppressed sound levels for the 5.56 mm/
223 caliber semiautomatic rifle at the military standard
recording distance was 164 dB and 155 dB at the shooter’s
ear. The average suppressed levels were 137.4 dB and 134.2
dB, respectively (difference of 26.6 dB and 29.8 dB,
respectively).
The average unsuppressed sound levels for the boltaction
7.62 3 51 mm/308 caliber rifle at the military standard
recording distance was 165.7 dB and 157.2 dB at the
ear. The average suppressed sound levels were 138.9 dB
and 131.2 dB, respectively (difference of 26.8 dB and 26
dB, respectively). See Figures 3 and 4.
Discussion
The consistency of hearing protection use with recreational firearms
is dismal.
18
We know that hearing compliance programs
in industry rely on routine, supervised use of ear-level devices
and periodic audiometric screening to assess effectiveness. No
such programs exist for the recreational shooter. As the NIOSH
Web site explains, the best hearing protection is the one the
worker will wear.
16
But how do we motivate shooters to be
compliant, especially in light of the data regarding the poor
effectiveness of ear-level devices? Even compliant use of dual
ear protection (plugs and muffs) over time leads to degradation
of hearing.
19
Practical limitations of ear-level devices are
myriad. Poor fit, migration of device due to activity or sweat,
incorrect use, pain, heat, and loss of communication top the list.
Because of their use at the source of noise production,
muzzle suppressors are much more effective at reducing
noise. This facilitates communication and situational awareness,
which can improve safety when operating firearms.
Suppressors can easily and reliably be removed and transferred
between multiple weapons of like caliber and reattached
in a way that ensures proper fit and function. With
suppression levels from 26 dB to 41 dB that are reliable and
reduce impulse noise below 140 dB, all of the devices in
Table 1. Firearms (Caliber, Manufacturer), Ammunition, and Suppressors Used
Caliber Manufacturer Ammunition Suppressor
Pistol 9 mm Sig Sauer P226, Exeter, NH Remington UMC 147 gr ball, Lonoke, AK Advanced Armament Ti-Rant,
Norcross, GA
45 ACP Glock 21, Smyrna, GA Remington UMC 230 gr ball, Lonoke, AK HTG Cycle-2, Boise, ID
Rifle 5.56 mm/223 Colt M4 16 inch barrel,
Hartford, CT
M855 NATO 62 gr steel core
penetrator, Independence, MO
Gemtech G5, Eagle, ID
7.62 3 51 mm/308 Remington Model 700,
Madison, NC
Remington 168 gr BTHP MK, Lonoke, AK HTG M-30, Boise, ID
Figure 3. Firearm/suppressor attenuation compared with realworld
earmuff attenuation. EAR indicates at the shooter’s ear;
MLT-STD, military-standard.
Figure 4. Firearm/suppressor attenuation compared with realworld
earplug attenuation. EAR indicates at the shooter’s ear; MLT-
STD, military-standard.
952 Otolaryngology–Head and Neck Surgery 144(6)
our study are ‘‘hearing safe.’’ However, weapon-suppressor
combinations producing sound levels 130 dB or less (9 mm
and 45 ACP wet) are much more comfortable to shoot without
any hearing protection at all. In fact, the sound level of
the 9 mm pistol’s slide closing without any shot fired measured
124 dB. To our knowledge, this is the first time the efficiency
of muzzle suppressors has been properly tested and
compared with ear-level protection in any medical journal.
Conclusion
The muzzle-level suppressors studied on these weapons and
calibers reduced sound levels well below the likely noise
reduction of either earplugs or earmuffs.
Acknowledgments
The author thanks John Titsworth Jr, founder/owner of Silencer
Research, LLC and SilencerResearch.com, for providing firearms,
ammunition, suppressors, sound-testing equipment, and expertise
in the performance of the testing described in this article.
Author Contributions
Matthew Parker Branch, original concept, experimental design
and execution, research, writing, editing entire text, final approval.
Disclosures
Competing interests: None.
Sponsorships: None.
Funding source: None.
References
1. National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication
Disorders, National Institutes of Health. Noise-induced
hearing loss. http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/noise
.asp. Accessed July 15, 2010.
2. Seidman M, Jacobson G. Update on tinnitus. Otolaryngol Clin
North Am. 1996;29:455-465.
3. Seidman MD, Babu S. Alternative medications and other treatments
for tinnitus: facts from fiction. Otolaryngol Clin North
Am. 2003;36:359-381.
4. Adams P, Hendershot G, Marano M. Current estimates from
the National Health Interview Survey, 1996. Vital Health Stat
10. 1999;(200):1-203.
5. Chung DY, Gannon RP, Mason K. Factors affecting the prevalence
of tinnitus. Audiology. 1984;23:441-452.
6. Zenner H, Ernst A. Cochlear-motor, transduction and
signal-transfer tinnitus: models for three types of cochlear tinnitus.
Eur Arch Otorhinolaryngol. 1993;249:447-454.
7. Eggermont J. On the pathophysiology of tinnitus: a review and
a peripheral model. Hear Res. 1990;48:111-123.
8. Konig O, Schaette R, Kempter R, Gross M. Course of hearing
loss and occurrence of tinnitus. Hear Res. 2006;221:59-64.
9. Ochi K, Ohashi T, Kenmochi M. Hearing impairment and tinnitus
pitch in patients with unilateral tinnitus: comparison of
sudden hearing loss and chronic tinnitus. Laryngoscope. 2009;
113:427-431.
10. Clark WW. Noise exposure from leisure activities: a review. J
Acoust Soc Am. 1991;90:175-181.
11. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. BATFE
estimated 215 million guns in 1999. Crime Gun Trace Reports,
1999, National Report, Nov. 2000. p. ix. www.atf.gov/firearms/
ycgii/1999/index.htm. Accessed August 23, 2010.
12. Wellford CF, Pepper JV, Petrie CV, eds. National Research
Council, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. Washington,
DC: National Academies Press; 2005.
13. Background checks for firearm transfers, 2007. www.ojp.us
doj.gov./bjs/pub/html/bcft/2007/table/bcft07st01.htm. Accessed
August 23, 2010.
14. Federal Bureau of Investigation. FBI monthly and yearly NICS
transaction data. www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nics_checks_total.pdf.
Accessed August 23, 2010.
15. Berger EH, Royster LH. In search of meaningful hearing protector
effectiveness. Spectrum. 1996:13(suppl 1):29.
16. Berger EH, Franks JR, Lindgren F. International review of
field studies of hearing protector attenuation. In: Axelsson A,
Borchgrevink H, Hamernik RP, Hellstrom P, Henderson D,
Salvi RJ, eds. Scientific Basis of Noise-Induced Hearing Loss.
New York, NY: Thieme; 1996:361-377.
17. Dater PH. Firearm Sound Level Measurements: Technique and
Equipment. 2nd ed. Boise, ID: ATI Star Press; 2000.
18. Nondahl DM, Cruickshanks KJ, Wiley TL. Recreational firearm
use and hearing loss. Arch Fam Med. 2000;9:352-357.
19. Wu CC, Young YH. Ten-year longitudinal study of the effect
of impulse noise exposure from gunshot on inner ear function.
Int J Audiol. 2009;48:655-660.
Branch 953
 
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For those folks interested in more scientific data

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2002-0131-2898.pdf

NIOSH HEALTH HAZARD EVALUATION REPORT:
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health
HETA #2002-0131-2898
Fort Collins Police Services
Fort Collins, Colorado
March 2003
 
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Ah yes, the old argument that actually favoured the muffs against plugs (cause the muffs "should" dampen the vibrations arond the critical earbones).

I did consult two audiologists on that some time ago, them stating that in theory (perfect conditions, vibrations or sound of some frequencies etc) it could be correct, but not so much in practice and on the range. The bone transfer, if I remember correctly, concerned them with continuous exposition to a non-changing frequency - airport mechanic working with a jet engine, a worker jack-hammering a stone all day and similar.

Shooting = impulse noise. They´ve put all emphasis on using SOME earpro, because some loss to hearing is possible with a single shot with rifle calibers, and on using it correctly. I haven´t challenged that, I trust them.
 
There are three types of hearing loss: conductive (air moving through outer and middle ear), sensorineural ( movement of fine hairs and fluid within your inner ear or cochlea and nerves to your brain, then mixed loss.

Conductive is the biggest and ost threatening type of loss. If you want proof take a tuning fork strike it, place the base of the handle on the bone behind your ear. When you stop hearing the sound place the vibrating part directly to the side of your ear canal and you should still be able to hear the sound for twice as long as your heard it on your skull. Basic hearing test even an ER nurse like me know it.
 
WRT to NRR ratings, when we use those to select the proper hearing protection for occupational settings, we use NRR/2.

NRR is a very old standard. Also, NRR is tested by the company. Many years ago one foam plug company found a "loophole" on the testing procedure and managed to get (perfectly "legally") a much higher NRR. After some time, and pressure from the industry, they dropped the NRR to something more normal.

I use NRR to compare products. For a quality manufacturer, a higher NRR provides more protection than a lower NRR.

I personally use Howard Leight Max plugs for shooting. With or without an electronic muff. I also like EAR plugs.
 
Glad that guy is a medical student and not an engineer. In my opinion cans are they way to go for us guys shooting outside and not next to a room full of unsuppressed weapons.

I'm no doctor, but I'd think the seal you get when wearing them would be paramount as far as protection. I can shoot 5-8 hours along side guys in a somewhat enclosed shelter, and have no ringing or any sign of damage with Howard Leight's other than discomfort from wearing them for extended periods of time. Now a freind my same age has issues, even combined with plugs.

The reason I qouted playerz, I think he's right on the can issue, even though I don't see myself or freinds jumping on buying them anytime soon. My issue with cans is this, I'm seeing more video's and in person of people shooting cans with no eye protection on. it's like becuase you can't hear the noise, you've eliminated the guns pressure, wrong!
I have a freind with an extractor stuck in back of his head, it went through his right eye. Even though I don't know 99.9% of you guys, I'd hate to see anyone have to suffer this fate, so be careful.
 
I wear plugs AND muffs pretty much all the time unless shooting suppressed. If I'm shooting suppressed I usually just wear the plugs. Seems like the combination of electronic muffs make it loud enough to hear talking, but I hear very little of the gunfire.
 
It doesn't matter,plugs,muffs or electronic muffs they all work for what they are intended and that is noise reduction you just need to make sure you are using what's rated for what you are doing. I personally use electronic muffs because its what I like, I can here range commands with no problem and can leave them on when the RO is scoring targets and can hear what he is saying.
 
first year student.. should have looked at him and asked if he read that on the internet. followed up with Bonjour!!

I usually do both plugs and muffs shooting. after a few years early in life in artillery back when hearing pro labelled you a vag, I need all the help I can get. lol
 
Ah yes, the old argument that actually favoured the muffs against plugs (cause the muffs "should" dampen the vibrations arond the critical earbones).

I did consult two audiologists on that some time ago, them stating that in theory (perfect conditions, vibrations or sound of some frequencies etc) it could be correct, but not so much in practice and on the range. The bone transfer, if I remember correctly, concerned them with continuous exposition to a non-changing frequency - airport mechanic working with a jet engine, a worker jack-hammering a stone all day and similar.

Shooting = impulse noise. They´ve put all emphasis on using SOME earpro, because some loss to hearing is possible with a single shot with rifle calibers, and on using it correctly. I haven´t challenged that, I trust them.

This is what I was told by an Army doctor many years ago, when I had occasional bouts of tinnitus due to being a hard (stupid) guy with no need for hearing pro.

Since that visit I`ve been rather particular to donning atleast ear muffs (electronics since the big grey peltors showed up) and if running a range for heavier weaponery than normal rifles/hand guns (.50s or 84MM recoiless and such) I`m sporting plugs as well. Not having had any further loss of hearing after using that regime.
 
I always use disposable foam plugs and electronic muffs with the highest noise reduction rating I can find (Peltor Tactical Pro is one). A lot of electronic muffs do not have very high db reduction ratings. It is an imperfect measure, but gets you in the ballpark. I wouldn't use most electronic muffs alone because the typical noise reduction seems too low based on experience with various brands.

The foam plugs plus elecronics allows me to hear everything going on around me, but at the same time really cuts down the noise. I have shot like this for years and have never had ringing, or any noticeable hearing loss. I do notice that the whole ear muffs do give me a better feeling of sound deadening over just using plugs alone. But both together gives a good margin of safety if the muffs happen to leak noise due to shifting/bad fit.
 
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The tuning fork Is a harmonic vibration. The Rene and Weber test help to distinguish between nerve deafness and conduction problems. That tuning fork is designed to produce a certain harmonic frequency that will be conducted though hollow bones.. Like an acoustic guitar. Make the guitar solid and how much noise does it make? How load is and electric guitar with electricity. I have all those tuning forks. Key here is harmonics. You can hit one tuning fork and get it going and place another beside it and it will start to vibrate.

If I was at work I would give you the frequency on the forks. Lot of the high pitched one wont conduct through hollow bones.

Gun fire is a blast and not a continus vibration. It's a shock wave hitting your eardrum. How come my ears aren't ringing when I take the plugs out them?

If you are worried place a piece of close cell foam between rifle and your cheek weld.

The Forks only work with bone conduction where there is no fat or muscle between the skin and bone. Like the mastoid air cells.

I have used the forks to diagnosis fractures. Works great on ribs and feet. That was taught in school back in the day. before there was CAT and MRI scans
 
Alright, let' s bring this one back to life. In all seriousness, everyone concerned about their hearing should wear electronic muffs AND foamies. I'm a Navy pilot. That means that not only am I an expert on everything, but I also get my hearing checked once a year (and lectured if things turn south). I adhere to what we're taught and always wear double hearing protection for anything over 104dB. FYI, most gunshots are WELL above this. Get some Howard Leight's AND wear foamies...even when hunting. If your buddies give you a hard time, tell them it's what the "militry" does and, therefore, TACTICAL.
 
Well, I'll be dipped. In one thread, from shear idiocy to sublime data.

That first year student that everybody is shredding is of course exactly correct and wholly wrong, but that may very well be the result of Elites' honesty when he says "and to be honest it went way over my head."
The med student's dissertation may never be fully appreciated, but....even with a fractured retelling, it holds more insight than a majority of the writing set above.

If he was describing the fact that electronic headphone do a poor job at suppressing dBs, well that depends on the model, the wearing of them, the firearm, the damage all ready done and a whole host more. The majority of electronics headphone are indeed just short of crap.

If he was describing the fact that you can pour your ears full of whatever flavor of double stuff until you are satisfied that you are safe.....only to loose your hearing by bone conduction through your jaw and skull, well then, let him stand and receive his accolades. He has pointed out what only becomes clear to those that do their best to hold on to their hearing only to find that the big rigs rip the snot out of the high end of your ears with only time and access to your face. The truth of it? One can be born without eardrums (and some are) and the loss to them? 30 ish dBs. That's right, if their inner ear is healthy, they can hear through delivering sound through their skull. So for those that think that plugs, plugs and muffs are enough for the heavy calibers, it is simply not true.

Beginner's piece is helpful to a point, but the kind of data that is long on facts and short on a deeper understanding of the "why" of it all.

In the end, a pilot informs us to where foamies and Howard's....sound advice for those that find the only use for a "can" is to sit on it. Such thinking has led to drones. Keep smiling, I jest.

Suppress! Calculate the residue dBs and plug up as required to drive the resultant below 90 if you can.

Waldo, If you are betting on VA money understanding which way the wind blows on this subject remember, think modern helmet construction keeping up with concussion requirements. On this subject, they still think that dB readings in the absence of duration and frequency matters. It doesn't....and you just lost your money betting VA.

"What a bunch a crap. If it does not sound loud to you it is not hurting your hearing." Ah....youth!
 
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I use Howard Leight Max's NRR 33 foam's all the time. Also I use Horward Leight LM-777 NRR 31 ear muffs sometime's combined. The foams don't allow me to hear range commands and if combined with my ear muff's its just quiet!!!!
 
Here is another important part of the puzzle

Muzzle Brakes

In the past 10 years, they have gone from not as common, to practically standard on a large percentage of tactical / competition rifles.

They are very popular due to the reduction in recoil, which allows you to watch your hits and do much faster follow up shots, while still having a light rifle. However the better job it does, more likely the greater it is amplifying the noise / pressure wave back towards the shooter.

Suppressors reduce the sound but do almost nothing for the recoil so there becomes an upper limit on shooting energy when balancing out recoil, rifle weight and hearing protection.
 
You've apparently never used a can?...

Actually I have, it's just that as you scale up rifles you realize the difference, that can be hard to quantify on smaller recoiling calibers when judging simply from how it feels.
A good way to find this out in a hurry, is take a heavy .50 BMG rifle like the AI AW50, With a good suppressor on it, the sound is greatly reduced, but it feels like a horse is kicking you, then for comparison, take a lighter rifle such as a Barrett (or another heavy rifle such as an AR50), with a really good V shaped tank style muzzle brake and the difference in felt recoil is huge. Then to see it in the middle, try one with a less aggressive shark gill style brake that is not raked back as much and you'll find the recoil is right in-between the two.

The reason to start big and scale down when testing is that once you get up to the .50 BMG range, in shoulder fired platforms, it becomes all about the physics of the pressure / direction of the air jets coming from the brake vs. the opposite force from accelerating mass, applied to stationary mass of the launching platform, and the forces at work are strong enough to easily overcome other factors such as the suppressor adding a bit extra weight, or the suppressor's weight at the end affecting the way the barrel moves and also the mental impression that less sound = less force.

That being said however, I will need to one day do some controlled experiments with testing equipment designed to accurately record peak and sustained pressure over a period of time, and until I can, there is a good chance that my theories based on non measured observations could be wrong, or not apply equally.
 
Actually I have, it's just that as you scale up rifles you realize the difference, that can be hard to quantify on smaller recoiling calibers when judging simply from how it feels.
A good way to find this out in a hurry, is take a heavy .50 BMG rifle like the AI AW50, With a good suppressor on it, the sound is greatly reduced, but it feels like a horse is kicking you, then for comparison, take a lighter rifle such as a Barrett (or another heavy rifle such as an AR50), with a really good V shaped tank style muzzle brake and the difference in felt recoil is huge. Then to see it in the middle, try one with a less aggressive shark gill style brake that is not raked back as much and you'll find the recoil is right in-between the two.

The reason to start big and scale down when testing is that once you get up to the .50 BMG range, in shoulder fired platforms, it becomes all about the physics of the pressure / direction of the air jets coming from the brake vs. the opposite force from accelerating mass, applied to stationary mass of the launching platform, and the forces at work are strong enough to easily overcome other factors such as the suppressor adding a bit extra weight, or the suppressor's weight at the end affecting the way the barrel moves and also the mental impression that less sound = less force.

That being said however, I will need to one day do some controlled experiments with testing equipment designed to accurately record peak and sustained pressure over a period of time, and until I can, there is a good chance that my theories based on non measured observations could be wrong, or not apply equally.

I'll concede the point on .50 and such -- it sounded like you were claiming that suppressors in general do nothing for recoil.