Emergency Iron Sites

[Ranger822]

This is sort of a polling question for all the old timers out there, combat vets, hunters, etc.

How often have ever every had to employ backup or iron sights for a scoped rifle? Sure they nice to have, and you surely need them when you need them - but unless you are in a life/death circumstance - they don't seem to be an emergency by definition. Also, how practical are they to install or employ? I can think of several circumstances where perhaps they might be needed. Scenario 1 - you and another sniper are duking it out - and somehow, the other sniper misses your eye but takes out your scope - okay now what do you do? Do you really have time to uninstall a scope, assuming you have the tools, and then install your sites before the bad guy takes his next well aimed shot? Scenario 2 - you are in the dead of winter, the wolves are closing in, snow is heavy, sort of like "The Grey" and your scope is just totally frosted and you really cant see bumpkis - do you somehow uninstall your scope, assuming you have the tools, wearing your trigger finger mittens, and then install your backup sites before the big bad wolf rips out your throat? Scenario 3 - you are in the middle of a shooting competition, you get a cramp and have to drop your weapon and it busts your scope - do you pack it in or install your backup sites?

Sorry for some levity - but I really would like to hear the experts thoughts on backup iron sites - options like quick adjust scopes/mounts, quick adjust sites, gimmie some options and suggestions.

 

[rrflyer]

Sweet baby Jesus...

 

[Delta4-3]

You may break your optic on the way to your ffp. Generally speaking, the need for your backup gear comes in the most unsuspecting way. If you got 100 answers on here as to how a situation could arise that would force you to use backup irons, I would about garantee that when you did need them it wouldn't be one of the 100 reasons that got posted. That's just how Murphy rolls. Also as a rule, someone who doesn't try to backup their gear, won't have the mindset to complete the job anyway.

 

[Willyz_54]

I will only comment as a hunter. I have seen where a primary optic or mounting has failed during an elk hunt last year on my dad's rifle. A "professionally" mounted scope came loose due to improper mounting of the base. Due to the limited duration of the hunt, that rifle was cased and he used his backup rifle for the rest of the trip as it simply did not make sense to remount and re-zero. My personal preference is to have a zero'd backup rifle at camp/in the truck should the need arise, therefore I do not have any sort of BUIS on my bolt guns. As for predators, I do carry a .45 as a extra layer of protection, but have not had need for it.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Sweet baby Jesus...

You did better than me, I was pretty much.......................................speechless.

 

[bullseye13]

On an AR I like the 45 degree offset iron sights. No need to remove scope to transition to them. I always imagined the scenario of coyote hunting with my scope set on a higher magnification, and one sneaks in close from a different direction. Instead of trying to find him in the scope or dialing the magnification down, I could just turn the rifle to 1 o clock and shoot. Hasn't happened yet... but it could?

 

[Hairball]

Scenerio 1 - without a scope the other "sniper" is too far away to see them with iron sights so run away
Scenerio 2 - I live in the high desert with no snow and no wolves so I cant comment on that but that's what handguns are for
Scenerio 3 - if you spend the money for a good scope (S&B, USO) you can drop them repeatedly and they will still perform

In all seriousness, the only rifles that I have both iron sights and optics are on my M4 and the iron sights look straight down my Aimpoint compm4s. As I am no longer in the military and will not use the rifle on deployment and I don't shoot 3 gun I don't even need the iron sights but they came on my 468 so I will keep them. If your scope fails, replace the scope or grab another rifle....

 

[kraigWY]

During WWII, the Army used the M1903A4, the Marines used the M1941, the difference was the 'A4s used a 1903a3 action, the 1941 used the 1903a1 action. The difference is the Maine Scopes came off and you had iron sights. The sights on the A4s were removed.

In the South Pacific heavy jungle areas, the 8X Marine scopes didn't have the field of view needed in close jungle fighting. The Army's 2.5 scopes worked much better. The Marines ended up dumping the 41s for the Army's A4 because of this. But those that kept the 1941s got by by taking off the scope and using the iron sights.

Both went to the M1C/Ds later, which we all know had the ability to remove the scope and go to irons.

Fast forward to Vietnam. Again Jungles, The Army used the M21, meaning if needed they could just take off the scope and have excellent iron sights. The Marines use the M40, no method of using irons. And crawling around the rice paddies everything go clogged with silt. Much easier to remove the scope and go to irons then try to clean that milky crap off the scope.

Then when the Army went to the M24 they kept the ability to switch to iron sights. I don't have a M24 but I do have Winchester Model 70 target rifles that use the same set up. It takes a pair of seconds to switch to the irons. Much quicker then cleaning the milky, silt sticky mud off the glass. Also the sights used held their zeros when you take them off an put them back on.

Everybody has their opinions, some based on internet hype, but some based on the battle field they fought their wars. Me, I'd want iron sights, but then my war was a jungle war.

Regardless, if I was to go back in time (and age) and have to carry such a rifle, I'd make damn sure I'd have iron sight backup. Maybe never need them, but then if I did they would be there.

Right now the closest thing I have that I would call a Military sniper rifle is a M1903A4 used in the CMP Vintage Sniper Matches. Its a team match, both members shoot, and both member spot. If my scope goes south, I can use my partners rifle. If both quit then we're out of the match, but we live to shoot another match. No life or death situation here.

 

[pmclaine]

In the same vain of Kraigwy's post. Co worker bought a nice 1903 sporter looks like it was built in the mid 30's. It has a Noske scope in a Griffin and Howe detachable mount with a set of Lyman sights in reserve.

BUIS are not new or novel.

 

[Ranger822]

Personally, I would prefer to always have iron sites as an easy backup.

If folks will pardon the levity of the three riduculous scenarios I used as a grabber, my goal was to get some opinions and ideas. I just bought a Sako TRG22, and unlike my M-1A, it doesn't come with integrated iron sites. So, I thought this thread might help me decide if I should purchase a set of expensive backup sights. The rifle will be mostly a target rifle with possibly some hunting. No plans for any combat in my future with this rifle. I have a personal side arm.

I suppose if a set of backup sites could be integrated on the TRG, or easily replace a busted scope, I would be all over it.

 

[Creature]

On an AR I like the 45 degree offset iron sights. No need to remove scope to transition to them. I always imagined the scenario of coyote hunting with my scope set on a higher magnification, and one sneaks in close from a different direction. Instead of trying to find him in the scope or dialing the magnification down, I could just turn the rifle to 1 o clock and shoot. Hasn't happened yet... but it could?

I had this happen to me just this last season using a suppressed AR. I shot it in the gut through my 2.5-10x24 on the lowest setting. It ran straight at me(due to the suppressor I imagine) and I had to roll the rifle counter-clockwise and put another in it at about 10-15ft away from the cedar tree I was in. Crazy shit. I'm a believer in the 45 degree offset sights with an AR. I zero mine at around 20yds and it's good to the muzzle. I've thought about putting one on my DTA but I'm kind of worried about it messing with the bolt throw. IMO the offset ones are the way to go for back ups. They can be dual purpose that way.

 

[bullseye13]

I had this happen to me just this last season using a suppressed AR. I shot it in the gut through my 2.5-10x24 on the lowest setting. It ran straight at me(due to the suppressor I imagine) and I had to roll the rifle counter-clockwise and put another in it at about 10-15ft away from the cedar tree I was in. Crazy shit. I'm a believer in the 45 degree offset sights with an AR. I zero mine at around 20yds and it's good to the muzzle. I've thought about putting one on my DTA but I'm kind of worried about it messing with the bolt throw. IMO the offset ones are the way to go for back ups. They can be dual purpose that way.

Thats good stuff there. As handy as the offset sights are, I'm not sure why they aren't more popular on any scoped rig? On your DTA you might be able to put your rear sight in front of the scope? Ive seen the JP setups that are mounted way up on the modular hand guards and they get seem to work fine in comps.

 

[Creature]

Thats good stuff there. As handy as the offset sights are, I'm not sure why they aren't more popular on any scoped rig? On your DTA you might be able to put your rear sight in front of the scope? Ive seen the JP setups that are mounted way up on the modular hand guards and they get seem to work fine in comps.

True, I would like open notch sights. I don't like the idea of a diopter sight mounted that far forward. I used to run a Aimpoint H1 at 45 degrees on another scoped AR and burned multiple coyotes at less than 25yds with it. IMO that is the way to go. My only beef with a setup like that is that it has too large of a profile. I think a Trijicon RMR would would be ideal. It would serve as a backup sight as well.

Don't know if you can see it real well in this pic but this is how i ran the Aimpoint.

 

[bullseye13]

I believe you're correct on that being the perfect setup.Is that Aimpoint in a Larue mount?Very nice pic. There's not many things I enjoy more than a kickass stick next to a dead animal.

 

[Ranger822]

Seeing the pic helped me better understand. Seems like rail mounts have all sorts of nice applications. Maybe I should change the thread to backup sights. The thought had not occurred to me about an alternate optical. Maybe even a laser? Never used one, but perhaps that might give someone pause with a laser dot trained on ones chest, emanating from a .338 LM. That brings to mind a flashback to my hero Harry Calahan - go ahead make my day!

 

[bullseye13]

Seeing the pic helped me better understand. Seems like rail mounts have all sorts of nice applications. Maybe I should change the thread to backup sights. The thought had not occurred to me about an alternate optical. Maybe even a laser? Never used one, but perhaps that might give someone pause with a laser dot trained on ones chest, emanating from a .338 LM. That brings to mind a flashback to my hero Harry Calahan - go ahead make my day!

Didn't mean to hijack your thread, and change it to offset mounts and sights.

 

[Ranger822]

Kind of glad you did. Got me to think outside the box.

 

[rman1]

...I just bought a Sako TRG22, and unlike my M-1A, it doesn't come with integrated iron sites...

...I suppose if a set of backup sites could be integrated on the TRG...I would be all over it.

Sako offers a sight kit exactly like you are wanting specifically for TRG rifles.

Check out Beretta USA's website for TRG accessories.

R.

 

[Ranger822]

Yes, I am looking at those. Unless I miss my mark, they aren't quite the exactly like integrated sights in the M-1A. What I see different is with the front site the M-1A sort of built in front by muzzle brake area. The rear sight retracts down out of the way of the sight mount (ART-IV) I have. In pretty quick order I can remove the scope and mount as one unit, set my sight for estimated range, already zeroed and be shooting fairly straight away. The TR sights don't quite operate the same way. It appears the front sight is an add-on that will, after addition, remain resident, not in the way and be ready to use once the scope is removed. The rear site looks like maybe it is also an add-on, but not intended to stay resident, but rather added on after a scope and/or mount is removed. I would suppose the the rear sight could be zeroed and then removed from what is it's mounting point (Picatiny rail) and then reattached without being too far off. But, what I don't have a good feel for is how easy it is or could be to remove the scope from the TRG, in a pinch for time. Maybe it is not anything difficult or time consuming. I want to scan thru pics on the web to see if I can see some different shots of how those things look mounted up before I buy a set. Maybe some has a set of the sights and can comment on the scope/ attachment options that work best if also wanting to employ backup iron sights.

One last comment, the M-1A still allows for a rather limited use of the backup iron sites even with the scope on, but that is with the rear site almost fully retracted so I guess that might effectively limit a lot of the range you might otherwise engage targets.

 

[Ranger822]

Ops, I lied - one more comment - sometimes I genuinely enjoy shooting iron sights just for the sake of being retro or the nostalgia of it or just because it seems like like good practice for that "just in case" moment. Ideally, I guess what I would like on my TRG is a set of permanent iron sights with the ability to mount a scope that either doesn't get in the way of the iron sights or is quick and easy to remove so that the backup sights can be used.

 

[Ranger822]

Okay, have decided to buy some new Sako iron sites. Where are they sold for least amount of money? I will be checking the Internet to see who hasnthe best prices too and get back with my findings. I'll prices will vary - not sure why, but my experience with my HK pistol says this will be so.

 

[Lowlight]

It is 2013 there are better ways to skin this cat that are easier, simpler and more effective

As noted, your Mk 1 eyeball has limitations so way not a small magnified optic ? Or even a small ($99) red dot like a Bushnell TRS 25, cheaper and more effective.

Iron sights are rarely zeroed correctly and do not "hold zero" the same as an optic will. So consider a MODERN SOLUTION

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/N_774XyZcc4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This caused a bit of controversy when it was published back in day. Guys who always ask what caused the issue with Larue, this video was it.

I would much rather have a small optic pre-sighted ready to roll than have to depend on two separate sights.

 

[Ranger822]

I like that solution best of all. I also like the utility belt with the extra pouches with the tool and extra optics. For the price difference, as expensive as those Sako iron sights are, I see a real plus with a simple pre-zeroed easy and quick to install backup optic. The single throw lever for mounting also makes things a snap. Makes me wonder why there aren't more single throw quick release levers for the primary optics. Is it because of tradition or perhaps the primary scope needs a more firm base? If it is possible to have a scope that one could quick release and replace with the backup optics with a similar quick attachment lever that would perhaps reduce the need for carrying one more tool. Also, that video makes me wonder about my M-1A and its mount and some possible applications. My experience with actually ever having to use backup iron sights is limited (never) and I never trained to use them either. I used the M-16 way before the Army started using these red dot/reflex systems. Irons were the primary sight! For the M21 we never had an optics failure that I can remember in my company, despite a lot of high op tempo and a variety of countries and climates.

 

[Ranger822]

One moe thing I just remembered about my M-1A is the the scope mount has always been a snap to remove and replace with a fairly reliable zero. A simple coin or Leatherman is all that is needed to attach/detach. Having something like that for the Sako TRG would be preferred with the back up optic like the ACOG. Given the sized of the ACOG, did anyone ever suggest just carrying a second optic that is identical to the primary? Sort of expensive to be sure, but for a tactical circumstance money is less of an object.

 

[Lowlight]

You want the primary system bulletproof, it's why we invest money in better rings. So you want the utmost accuracy which is why we torque our screws, bases, rings, scopes, down. Consistency. This is the problem with QD mounts on a precision rifle. Sure they work, and they are getting better, but you sacrifice that consistency.

Originally all the QD mounts were designed with an M4 in mind. 300m and in was really the maximum effective range you used them. (of course we can shoot them farther) but 99% of the use of the M4 type rifle is done inside 200m, second to that is inside 100m. So you don't care about consistency when you are shooting minute of man targets. Even classes that focus on accuracy like a Larry Vickers type training are inside 100 yards on a 6" Bullseye. Plenty of fudge room.

Precision rifle work, we want to reach or exceed 1 MOA out to 1000 yards. QD Rings in the past barely accomplished this. And even if you got lucky and say you can do it. How consistent are they over time. Do they require constant monitoring ? There are several draw backs to QD mounts with a Precision Rifle. They have gotten better.. the GDI for instance is a great example, but for a truly bulletproof system I want to torque them down. My long term prospects are much better.

A back up / emergency optical sight with a single throw lever is a good option. Especially something like an ACOG that are handle abuse without moving zero. It's small, it's reliable, it's a lot of things that put it in the plus column when you consider the actual purpose. Put in context of the situation you are better off at 3.5x or 4x than 0x.

QD are fine, and they have improved, but I would want one designed for a precision rifle. You want the ability to tighten it down beyond the QD levers, and you want the most surface area holding the mount to base as possible. A slim knife edge digging into the base is not the same as clamp that tights in a similar fashion to standard rings.

PS. I have to find it, as I have moved it, it's probably in a pouch. But you can use any kind of light weight wrench to knock off the primary optic. I have a plastic wing type wrench, it slips over the nut and thumb breaks. But you can use a 3" wrench, a small adjustable, etc. There are hundreds of options to knock off the primary optic.

 

[Ranger822]

Thanks for the follow-up. The M-1A is not in the same league as the new weapons. I can see that clearly. I haven't ever tried to engage anything with it beyond 1000m, and to be honest was never stellar at longer range. I hope to see my accuracy and consistency improve over the next year or so with my TRG system and some work at my bench and out on the range.

 

[Ranger822]

Just another footnote to this thread. After a short visit at Milehigh Shooting I had an opportunity to look at several configurations of alternative back-up sights. There are ring/mount systems that incorporate the means to attach accessory sights on top or off-angle. Very slick idea as well.

 

[Graham]

Here's an iron site:

iron ore mines for sale in south africa - YouTube

Oh, you meant sights... Nevermind.

 

[Driftwood]

Funny, when I first saw this thread I thought it would show a map of Iron ore deposits, located throughout the world so that when the zombie apocolypse comes, the survivalist with the appropriate blacksmithing skills would be able to locate the iron ore, and fashion it into emergency weapons, thereby saving humanity from extinction.

If you are looking for a serious emergency sight however, I think its hard to beat the small dot sights mounted at an angle on your scope or rifle. I have yet to mangle a scope so as to render it unusable but the quick point features of the dot sight could be useful in tight quarters.

I have shot half a qualification with an ACOG, then took it off my rifle and then put it back on and finished the qualification with no ill effects on my score, YRMV.

I bought a set of Redfield Palma sights for my newest rifle, but I don't really look at them as back up sights more alternative sights. I would stick with a small dot sight premounted for "emergencies", or a pre zeroed ACOG if you can swing it. The ACOGs are as near bullet proof as you can get.