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Hunting & Fishing Ethical Distance for Whitetail
- Thread starter rebelman
- Start date
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
I'll feed him. "Ethical distance" is subjective...not objective.
It will depend 100% on a plethora of variables.
The shooters skill set being the most important.
The SPECIFIC caliber, bullet weight and velocity is irrelevant.
What will matter is the bullets design and the energy delivered at a specific distance.
Having taken 3-4 deer (with one shot kills) ranging from 200-250 lbs, with a shot that only delivers between 500-600 lbs of energy. My personal comfort zone is based on the distance I can deliver that amount of energy accurately. (If I find down the line, that 400 lbs of energy is sufficient, I may adjust my comfort zone, but that's where it stands now)
The distance I can deliver that amount of energy accurately will depend on the caliber and bullet choice.
For example, a 7mmWSM with a 180 VLD going 2900 (at my atmospheric conditions) will deliver roughly 525 lbs of energy at 1600 yds, which would be enough energy IF you could deliver that pill inside of an 8" kill zone, essentially 1/2 MOA on the first shot.
Personally, I can't do that. So, even though the rifle, caliber and bullet could do it, I would not consider that shot ethical for my skill set, even though, for some more experienced shooters and re-loaders, it's possible.
I'll feed him. "Ethical distance" is subjective...not objective.
It will depend 100% on a plethora of variables.
The shooters skill set being the most important.
The SPECIFIC caliber, bullet weight and velocity is irrelevant.
What will matter is the bullets design and the energy delivered at a specific distance.
Having taken 3-4 deer (with one shot kills) ranging from 200-250 lbs, with a shot that only delivers between 500-600 lbs of energy. My personal comfort zone is based on the distance I can deliver that amount of energy accurately. (If I find down the line, that 400 lbs of energy is sufficient, I may adjust my comfort zone, but that's where it stands now)
The distance I can deliver that amount of energy accurately will depend on the caliber and bullet choice.
For example, a 7mmWSM with a 180 VLD going 2900 (at my atmospheric conditions) will deliver roughly 525 lbs of energy at 1600 yds, which would be enough energy IF you could deliver that pill inside of an 8" kill zone, essentially 1/2 MOA on the first shot.
Personally, I can't do that. So, even though the rifle, caliber and bullet could do it, I would not consider that shot ethical for my skill set, even though, for some more experienced shooters and re-loaders, it's possible.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
Along with what c_bass16 said but will add, weather/wind conditions. I hunt mule deer in the west with a 308 and would feel comfortable shooting 6-700 hundred when the conditions are in my favor, other days 300 may be pushing it. When home (shotgun zone)I hunt White Tail with a muzzleloader or 44 mag pistol and long range is anything over 150...
Along with what c_bass16 said but will add, weather/wind conditions. I hunt mule deer in the west with a 308 and would feel comfortable shooting 6-700 hundred when the conditions are in my favor, other days 300 may be pushing it. When home (shotgun zone)I hunt White Tail with a muzzleloader or 44 mag pistol and long range is anything over 150...
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
Many would shoot further, but using .30-'06 and with my personal skillset, I like to keep to to 300yd an under. As suggested above, it depends on the firearm.
I like to stay on the conservative side regarding reliable shot placement and effective terminal performance. I believe that in practical term, that's about where commercial ammunition makers design their bullet performance for. Accordingly, I try to keep my shots inside that sort of reasonable limit.
As I have also commented previously elsewhere, I don't feel I have the resources to develop reliable hunting handloads, and defer in that task to the commercial makers, who do. If I get a decent hit and the animal still escapes, I don't want it to be because of an error I made in my load development.
Greg
Many would shoot further, but using .30-'06 and with my personal skillset, I like to keep to to 300yd an under. As suggested above, it depends on the firearm.
I like to stay on the conservative side regarding reliable shot placement and effective terminal performance. I believe that in practical term, that's about where commercial ammunition makers design their bullet performance for. Accordingly, I try to keep my shots inside that sort of reasonable limit.
As I have also commented previously elsewhere, I don't feel I have the resources to develop reliable hunting handloads, and defer in that task to the commercial makers, who do. If I get a decent hit and the animal still escapes, I don't want it to be because of an error I made in my load development.
Greg
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">don't feed the trolls.............. </div></div>
LOL... they're gonna be good n fat after this one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">don't feed the trolls.............. </div></div>
LOL... they're gonna be good n fat after this one.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
i'm also with c_bass. two things:
a) first and formost - does your bullet give off enough energy to kill at that distance?
b) if you can answer a) with yes: can you reliable hit the heart/lungs at that distance? (which in my area is considered to be able to hit within +- 2cm of your point of aim)
rough estimate: by law from my area, your bullet (regardless of its type) has to have at least 2300 J @ 100m in order to be allowed to be used on red deer. sure you don't need all that energy on impact, but it gives you an estimate ...
i'm also with c_bass. two things:
a) first and formost - does your bullet give off enough energy to kill at that distance?
b) if you can answer a) with yes: can you reliable hit the heart/lungs at that distance? (which in my area is considered to be able to hit within +- 2cm of your point of aim)
rough estimate: by law from my area, your bullet (regardless of its type) has to have at least 2300 J @ 100m in order to be allowed to be used on red deer. sure you don't need all that energy on impact, but it gives you an estimate ...
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
as far as the max effective range of my caliber im shooting is how far i will engage anything with fur or flesh. these ethical questions crack me up....
as far as the max effective range of my caliber im shooting is how far i will engage anything with fur or flesh. these ethical questions crack me up....
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
We often see deer crippled or with gangrene that have been "shot at" by spotlight across long bean fields. So as it seems your intentions are good, limit yourself by your knowledge and ability. As a start, examine your cartridge for energy and stay above 1000 for distance. This is debatable of course, but a good starting point.
We often see deer crippled or with gangrene that have been "shot at" by spotlight across long bean fields. So as it seems your intentions are good, limit yourself by your knowledge and ability. As a start, examine your cartridge for energy and stay above 1000 for distance. This is debatable of course, but a good starting point.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">about 1500yds, and its gonna be on HD to. </div></div>
promise?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">about 1500yds, and its gonna be on HD to. </div></div>
promise?
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
I've never shot past 300 yards. My rule of thumb is take the effective range and subtract slightly less than half. That way I can be very accurate and the rounds have a tone of energy behind them.
I've never shot past 300 yards. My rule of thumb is take the effective range and subtract slightly less than half. That way I can be very accurate and the rounds have a tone of energy behind them.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: richieraby</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">about 1500yds, and its gonna be on HD to. </div></div>
promise? </div></div>
oh yes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: richieraby</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">about 1500yds, and its gonna be on HD to. </div></div>
promise? </div></div>
oh yes.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
In my opinion, to give the deer a sporting chance, they should only be hunted with rocks or clubs or perhaps sling shots. Distances should be limited to 6 feet.
In my opinion, to give the deer a sporting chance, they should only be hunted with rocks or clubs or perhaps sling shots. Distances should be limited to 6 feet.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
Hey, I'm no troll. I am forum memeber of numerous hunting websites and have a fairly deep background on most. I just recently found the hide. I'm asking a reasonable question. I see a lot of post on 1000 yards and beyond and wanted to know if you guys limit that to paper or hunting situations.
The main reason I ask is because I'm building a 'long' range hunting gun (300win mag) for mostly whitetails but with a few elk and mule deer trips. I rarely shoot paper. If my range ethical distance is 300 yards, I don't need much more than a 10 power scope. If it is 400-500 then perhaps a 14 or 16 power would be valuable.
Hey, I'm no troll. I am forum memeber of numerous hunting websites and have a fairly deep background on most. I just recently found the hide. I'm asking a reasonable question. I see a lot of post on 1000 yards and beyond and wanted to know if you guys limit that to paper or hunting situations.
The main reason I ask is because I'm building a 'long' range hunting gun (300win mag) for mostly whitetails but with a few elk and mule deer trips. I rarely shoot paper. If my range ethical distance is 300 yards, I don't need much more than a 10 power scope. If it is 400-500 then perhaps a 14 or 16 power would be valuable.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
I see LR target shooting as different from LR hunting.
I'll shoot a target as far out as I think I can hit it and get some sort of feedback. The wily paperbeastie does not require terminal performance considerations.
For hunting, my larger concern is based on terminal performance.
Greg
I see LR target shooting as different from LR hunting.
I'll shoot a target as far out as I think I can hit it and get some sort of feedback. The wily paperbeastie does not require terminal performance considerations.
For hunting, my larger concern is based on terminal performance.
Greg
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
Since you are planning some Mule Deer hunts. Depending on were you are hunting shots of 500 to 800 yards are possible. On average here in Nevada 400 yard shots are the norm.
If your skills are above average a shot to a 1000 is possible. But at that distance it's pushing it.
Since you are planning some Mule Deer hunts. Depending on were you are hunting shots of 500 to 800 yards are possible. On average here in Nevada 400 yard shots are the norm.
If your skills are above average a shot to a 1000 is possible. But at that distance it's pushing it.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
I limit myself to 500 yards and under, although I'm confident in my equipment and experience to 800 yards.
I ladder tested the 178 Amax through my 300WM Thursday. I ended up with this at 400 yards.
I've shot similar groups, if not better with Barnes 180TTS at 550 yards.
I limit myself to 500 yards and under, although I'm confident in my equipment and experience to 800 yards.
I ladder tested the 178 Amax through my 300WM Thursday. I ended up with this at 400 yards.
I've shot similar groups, if not better with Barnes 180TTS at 550 yards.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rebelman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey, I'm no troll. I am forum memeber of numerous hunting websites and have a fairly deep background on most. I just recently found the hide. I'm asking a reasonable question. I see a lot of post on 1000 yards and beyond and wanted to know if you guys limit that to paper or hunting situations.
The main reason I ask is because I'm building a 'long' range hunting gun (300win mag) for mostly whitetails but with a few elk and mule deer trips. I rarely shoot paper. If my range ethical distance is 300 yards, I don't need much more than a 10 power scope. If it is 400-500 then perhaps a 14 or 16 power would be valuable.</div></div>
this is an example of a 1000yd one shot hit, a mover in the wind, witnessed by me.....this is the exit wound, after the hit he moved about 35yard and took a dirt nap.......i took this because it shows the pitch of the projo.......
i think my wind doping skills are fairly decent.
if i remember right, this was a 120 grain nosler....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rebelman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey, I'm no troll. I am forum memeber of numerous hunting websites and have a fairly deep background on most. I just recently found the hide. I'm asking a reasonable question. I see a lot of post on 1000 yards and beyond and wanted to know if you guys limit that to paper or hunting situations.
The main reason I ask is because I'm building a 'long' range hunting gun (300win mag) for mostly whitetails but with a few elk and mule deer trips. I rarely shoot paper. If my range ethical distance is 300 yards, I don't need much more than a 10 power scope. If it is 400-500 then perhaps a 14 or 16 power would be valuable.</div></div>
this is an example of a 1000yd one shot hit, a mover in the wind, witnessed by me.....this is the exit wound, after the hit he moved about 35yard and took a dirt nap.......i took this because it shows the pitch of the projo.......
i think my wind doping skills are fairly decent.
if i remember right, this was a 120 grain nosler....
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
i say roughly 8 yards, and thats cause thats the max effective range on my hatchet. I go cherokee on them asses wearing a coyote hide and crawl up to within the given 8 yards and let my hatchet do the talkin
i say roughly 8 yards, and thats cause thats the max effective range on my hatchet. I go cherokee on them asses wearing a coyote hide and crawl up to within the given 8 yards and let my hatchet do the talkin
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i say roughly 8 yards, and thats cause thats the max effective range on my hatchet. I go cherokee on them asses wearing a coyote hide and crawl up to within the given 8 yards and let my hatchet do the talkin</div></div>
musta grew up across the Red River in Oklahoma.......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i say roughly 8 yards, and thats cause thats the max effective range on my hatchet. I go cherokee on them asses wearing a coyote hide and crawl up to within the given 8 yards and let my hatchet do the talkin</div></div>
musta grew up across the Red River in Oklahoma.......
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
Ethics arent the issue...
if you hit the deer and it dies...good job
if you miss or hit the deer and it lives...bad shot
An ethical dilemma concerning hunting falls on issue such as baiting animals, high fenced ranches where the animals are limited to 100 acres etc.
Ethics arent the issue...
if you hit the deer and it dies...good job
if you miss or hit the deer and it lives...bad shot
An ethical dilemma concerning hunting falls on issue such as baiting animals, high fenced ranches where the animals are limited to 100 acres etc.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tib's sps.tac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ethics arent the issue...
if you hit the deer and it dies...good job
if you miss or hit the deer and it lives...bad shot
<span style="font-weight: bold">An ethical dilemma concerning hunting falls on issue such as baiting animals, high fenced ranches where the animals are limited [from escape]. </span></div></div>
That's a good point there....
Just some rambling thought from my perspective:
As for ethics and hunting....there's morals too.
An ethical man knows it's wrong to cheat on his wife....a moral man would never do it.
As for "ethical distance"...the good shooter who can DO it with confidence, who knows the limitation of his gear and his load, who won't take an unnessary risk...has my support, or at least my undivided indifference.
As for the teeth knashing/tear sobbing distance snobs hiding under some invisable "code of ethics", I know people who think 180 yards is too long a range for killing anything..........and for too many dopes in the field these days, it certainly is.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tib's sps.tac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ethics arent the issue...
if you hit the deer and it dies...good job
if you miss or hit the deer and it lives...bad shot
<span style="font-weight: bold">An ethical dilemma concerning hunting falls on issue such as baiting animals, high fenced ranches where the animals are limited [from escape]. </span></div></div>
That's a good point there....
Just some rambling thought from my perspective:
As for ethics and hunting....there's morals too.
An ethical man knows it's wrong to cheat on his wife....a moral man would never do it.
As for "ethical distance"...the good shooter who can DO it with confidence, who knows the limitation of his gear and his load, who won't take an unnessary risk...has my support, or at least my undivided indifference.
As for the teeth knashing/tear sobbing distance snobs hiding under some invisable "code of ethics", I know people who think 180 yards is too long a range for killing anything..........and for too many dopes in the field these days, it certainly is.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
I read this somewhere, I don't remember where, but I thought this would be a good place to share it:
"I, however, view ethics as an individual decision. My ethics are mine - and I won't explain or justify them to anyone else. I seek nobody's approval, just that of my own conscience."
I read this somewhere, I don't remember where, but I thought this would be a good place to share it:
"I, however, view ethics as an individual decision. My ethics are mine - and I won't explain or justify them to anyone else. I seek nobody's approval, just that of my own conscience."
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
There is a video floating around of a guy dropping a mountain goat at over 900 yds. One shot, instant kill. I have killed deer out to 400m without issue. As to what is right, that will vary with the shooter, weather, caliber, rifle, sights, etc. If, as you state, you rarely shoot paper, how do you practice? Without regular off season practice at the ranges and under the conditions you expect to encounter on your hunts, success will not be terribly likely.
There is a video floating around of a guy dropping a mountain goat at over 900 yds. One shot, instant kill. I have killed deer out to 400m without issue. As to what is right, that will vary with the shooter, weather, caliber, rifle, sights, etc. If, as you state, you rarely shoot paper, how do you practice? Without regular off season practice at the ranges and under the conditions you expect to encounter on your hunts, success will not be terribly likely.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
My ethical/moral furthest shot on a deer would be as far as I feel I can hit my target 100% of the time. It may be 5-600 yards with a bipod prone and little wind. It may be 200 yards offhand, or 350-400 with gusting winds and a branch to shoot off. I practice in all conditions and scenarios that I can so I can make the determination properly when the oppertunity arises. I won't take the shot unless I KNOW I will hit my target. That's ethical to me.
My ethical/moral furthest shot on a deer would be as far as I feel I can hit my target 100% of the time. It may be 5-600 yards with a bipod prone and little wind. It may be 200 yards offhand, or 350-400 with gusting winds and a branch to shoot off. I practice in all conditions and scenarios that I can so I can make the determination properly when the oppertunity arises. I won't take the shot unless I KNOW I will hit my target. That's ethical to me.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jolly roger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a video floating around of a guy dropping a mountain goat at over 900 yds. One shot, instant kill. </div></div>
that's nothin... haven't you seen the 1017yd coyote kill???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jolly roger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a video floating around of a guy dropping a mountain goat at over 900 yds. One shot, instant kill. </div></div>
that's nothin... haven't you seen the 1017yd coyote kill???
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
I have two rifles I hunt with, the first being a savage bctss model 12 (i think thats right, big thumbhole stock, and 26" heavy barrel) in 22-250. With that gun, my ethical range is 200 yards for body shot, and 300 yards for a neck shot. I just depends on how steady I am and if I can get that shot off. My other is a 300 win mag, and ill go out to 400 yards without hesitation.
I have two rifles I hunt with, the first being a savage bctss model 12 (i think thats right, big thumbhole stock, and 26" heavy barrel) in 22-250. With that gun, my ethical range is 200 yards for body shot, and 300 yards for a neck shot. I just depends on how steady I am and if I can get that shot off. My other is a 300 win mag, and ill go out to 400 yards without hesitation.
Re: Ethical Distance for Whitetail
A 300 Win Mag with a 14x scope is a fine long range hunting rifle. My advice is build the gun get a good spotting buddy and shoot, shoot, and shoot some more; preferably in the same conditions you hunt. Trigger time with a pair of eyes watching your hits will tell you all you need to set a comfortable distance for yourself.
Ethics is like Religion, you are responsible for gathering the facts, making the decision, and then living with it.
A 300 Win Mag with a 14x scope is a fine long range hunting rifle. My advice is build the gun get a good spotting buddy and shoot, shoot, and shoot some more; preferably in the same conditions you hunt. Trigger time with a pair of eyes watching your hits will tell you all you need to set a comfortable distance for yourself.
Ethics is like Religion, you are responsible for gathering the facts, making the decision, and then living with it.
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