PRS Talk Explain the hype

[5Baize]

Just curious about the hype behind the .25 cal trend in PRS.

When looking at the .25 bullets available, I'm struggling to get the point in the trend.

a 6.5 mm 135gr Atip compared to a .25 135gr LRHT, there is a slight advantage to the .25 but really minimal ( .321 VS .334)

It there a .25 139gr Atip with a G7 > .350 or similar BC/weight gain being used/tested par some happy few?

 

[Sheldon N]

For the most part I think it's the goldilocks effect. It's mainly a sliding scale between more recoil vs better ballistics. If you can handle more recoil and still maintain good vision downrange, the 25 cal sort of sits in the "just right" spot.

Here's some rough numbers comparing typical loads between Dasher, 6 Creed with a 115, 25 Creed, and 6.5 Creed.

Left axis is wind drift in mils at 1k yards, for a 3mph wind (ie how much you'll miss by if the wind switches or you called it wrong). Bottom axis is recoil energy in ft/lb.

	Recoil ft/lb	3mph 1k yard wind	1k yard energy	Transonic Yards
6mm 105 Hyb 2850	3.1	0.7	452	1025
6 Creed 115 RDF 2850	4.1	0.6	600	1175
25 cal 135 Hyb 2750	4.8	0.5	710	1175
6.5mm 156 EOL 2625	5.5	0.6	764	1300

 

[5Baize]

Have you cross check all those numbers?

Wind drift for the 156gr looks to be 0.5 also

6 Dasher with 109gr ( let's use optimal bullet for all) would be 0.6

Then the plot positions is looking quite different.

My point was more comparing :

25 creedmore shooting 135gr LRHt at 2750

With

6.5 CM shooting 135 Atip at 2750

So same recoil 0.51 vs 0.54 wind drift différence, I.e. 0.03mil variation @ 1000 y.

I don't see the point

But I'm probably missing something

 

[Sheldon N]

Have you cross check all those numbers?

They are all JBM numbers run with the same environmental conditions.

A Dasher with 109 hybrid at 2820 just barely breaks into the 0.6 mil wind drift range. It also is slightly more recoil, 3.2 vs 3.1. Probably would be easier to see the graph if it was inches of drift instead mils, but the net result is the same trend line.

As far as 25 Creed with 135 hybrids vs 6.5 Creed with a 135 Atip, the 6.5 creed will take a bit more powder to hit same speed, have a tiny bit more recoil and have worse BC, all with a more expensive bullet. Seems like 25 Creed would be the preferred choice between those two.

Now personally, I don't get the 25 cal hype either. I shoot Berger 105 hybrids at 2850 fps and do just fine with it. All my misses are generally on me for not reading the plate well enough or making a bad trigger pull.

 

[5Baize]

Thanks!

Just for my education what is JBM standing for?

 

[Lightning8]

I am trying 25x47 with 134ELDMs running at 2700 - looking for more splash to see impacts vs 6mm.

 

[Sheldon N]

Just for my education what is JBM standing for?

JBM

www.jbmballistics.com

 

[Supersubes]

Just curious about the hype behind the .25 cal trend in PRS.

When looking at the .25 bullets available, I'm struggling to get the point in the trend.

a 6.5 mm 135gr Atip compared to a .25 135gr LRHT, there is a slight advantage to the .25 but really minimal ( .321 VS .334)

It there a .25 139gr Atip with a G7 > .350 or similar BC/weight gain being used/tested par some happy few?

The Blackjack 131gr bullet awakened the 25 cal beast. I little lighter bullet, with a great BC. Anecdotally they seemed really easy to push fast, they just didn't pressure up. 2900+ fps was very normal. Now that those are gone, there really isn't a reason to go 25 imo. Like @sheldon said, its a goldilocks decision. Im shooting one now with 131’s. When those are gone, im done. Will go back to 6.5.

 

[ToddKS]

I am trying 25x47 with 134ELDMs running at 2700 - looking for more splash to see impacts vs 6mm.

This is the reason many people (including myself) are trying the 25 cal. In my case I am running 25GT at 2700 with a 135 Berger. Because I was already running a 6 GT, there was almost no reloading gear investment (one bushing, two mandrels).

The 135 provides greater feedback both on target and on misses than the 105 Hybrid I run in my 6GT. This is especially true in heavy mirage which is very common where I shoot. The wind holds are very similar to my 105 Hybrids @ 2870 and the recoil is only slightly more.

 

[RTH1800]

A few years back one of the Blackjack principles was all over this site raving about .257’s and raging at those who did not agree. Once he sold his bullets he faded away iirc.
Quit raging at any rate. Surprised it’s come back.

 

[ma smith]

The only combo that "realistically" beats the dasher+109 in "simulations"

Is the 156@2650 and 135 hybrids@2750 in 6.5 and 25 cal, respectively

but the advantages are minimal, and only show up 10mph wind at 1K,
running numbers with 3mph at 800 etc isn't going to show much ∆

Its neither "low recoil" nor really any cheaper/longer barrel life,
or anything else that really moves the needle.

If might matter for 10% of matches and 10% of points to guys in top 10% of shooters,
but its going to be minimal for regular guys since the recoil is way higher than it looks...

135-109 is 26 grains and you need more powder, so the recoil is based on "ejecta" ∆ of like 30-35 grains or something.

Ie, that is dang close 140 vs 105 level of recoil ∆ between the 109 and 135 in a 25 x47 or CM

somebody can double check my math, if not absolutely precise, but I' pretty sure its on the right track.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The 25 cal surge has more to do with people experimenting becuase they couldn't get 105 and 109 hybrids. 135 hybrids were availible....have better bc than 6.5 140 class bullets and can be pushed to greater speeds.

On paper it's a winner...but like most things...the shooter skill is way more of a factor than the difference from a 6br to a 6.5cm. It's why guys win with all combinations. It's the indian...not the arrow when all the arrows are similar.

Imo if you already have a well tuned 6mm platform...you aren't gaining anything becuase if you can not shoot to the max potential of the 6 ( very few can) moving to a 25 is not going to help.

It's just another option for the hipsters and counter culture types.

 

[Rob01]

I'm waiting for the .270 150grn ATips with a .560 G7 BC to come out! LOL

 

[kthomas]

A few years back one of the Blackjack principles was all over this site raving about .257’s and raging at those who did not agree. Once he sold his bullets he faded away iirc.
Quit raging at any rate. Surprised it’s come back.

lol I remember that.

I made a post saying that while I liked the idea, I would never build a rifle around a cartridge that had only 1 supplier for projectiles. That individual certainly did not like that, lol.

 

[Supersubes]

A few years back one of the Blackjack principles was all over this site raving about .257’s and raging at those who did not agree. Once he sold his bullets he faded away iirc.
Quit raging at any rate. Surprised it’s come back.

They didnt fade away, one of the owners ran off with a couple hundred grand (allegedly) in cash and fucked a bunch of people over. Either way they're shut down. Fortunately for some, the popularity got hornady and berger into the 25 cal game.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Just curious about the hype behind the .25 cal trend in PRS.

When looking at the .25 bullets available, I'm struggling to get the point in the trend.

a 6.5 mm 135gr Atip compared to a .25 135gr LRHT, there is a slight advantage to the .25 but really minimal ( .321 VS .334)

I too was curious. I've been competing with a 6gt since late 2019.

Last fall I had a 25x47L spun up for 2024, got the barrel broke in and shot it at two regional matches this past winter.

Spring rolled around and I realized I had a certificate for a free chamber and fitting job I needed to get turned in quick and I had a spare 6.5 barrel sitting around I had purchased the previous year... long story short I had a 6.5x47L chambered up. Like you, I looked at the BC's and bullet weights and figured they would be interesting to compare.

I am now 700 rounds into the 6.5 shooting A-tip 135's and noticed TS Customs had a barrel sale going a month back that I couldn't pass up and a 25 GT found it's way into my home, cause... well... I have 1000 unfired Hornady brass in 6mm GT I got from a buddy named Swanny... way back when I made the switch back in 2019.

Opened those 6mm necks up for a nice .003" neck tension and started loading them up.

Barrel is broken in now and I am deciding on what load I want to run for matches now.

What I can say so far.

That 6.5x47L is awesome and the sad thing is I already knew that back when I was using one ten years ago. I can say if I were faced with the decision between that and the 25x47L again I'd go to the 6.5 as there are just more bullet options out there and while the 25 version isn't picky by any means... the 6.5 will shoot nearly every load well. That said, this 25 GT is really growing on me. I just like the size. It reminds me of a scaled up 6BR or a scaled down 6.5x47L and it also seems to shoot really well with just about every load I've tried... especially for unfired factory Hornady brass.

Recoil energy comparison. I set my velocity goal to make the 6.5 and 25 cal match my 109 6GT load at mid range in the wind. I shoot the 109 at around 2830fps, so for the 6.5 and 25 that means mid to low 2600's. I also increased the weight one pound on my 6.5 and 25 cal rifles and recoil energy is now right around half a pound more for each compared to the 6mm. Both give me around a 30% increase in energy on target.

Can I tell a difference in recoil? Between 25 and 6.5, no. Between 6mm and either of the other two, yes. However, with the extra few hundredths of a second those larger bullets are in the air I feel I "see" the same feedback down range when my bullet arrives, so the little bit more recoil hasn't really been a bother other than getting use to it.

Going forward, I don't see myself leaving the 6mm but I will also be keeping a 6.5x47 or 25GT for longer range matches.

 

[ma smith]

Going forward, I don't see myself leaving the 6mm but I will also be keeping a 6.5x47 or 25GT for longer range matches.

Good post.

 

[5Baize]

Good post.

Really good post