Advanced Marksmanship Extended Range Wind Gun MPH

[Jack Master]

My questions is - Does this idea work? Do you think the system below is close enough to use for doping your rifle at longer ranges?

We are all starting to understand the rifle MPH method of wind doping our rifles. This works out to 600yds, maybe 700, and 800 if you are lucky. But what about the further ranges? I wanted to find an easier way to dope the wind a further ranges without having to memorize ranges and what "jump" I am at. ("my rifle jumps at 1000 again... so that't 2 jumps... my hold is 1.2") So I decided to play with the MPH of my rifle at further distances to see if slowing the wind speeds will make things lineup at further ranges. This worked okay, but not great. I am putting this out there for others to look at and see if they think it will work at further ranges.

The premise - Rather than remembering where the "jumps" are at in our rifle MPH holds, lets find where our rifle changes mile per hour to keep the yardages equal to the wind calls.

Data is 6.5 Creedmoor, Hornady 140ELD Match ammo, 2650fps

So I played with Hornady 4Dof to see if this might work. I listed the wind holds for each wind MPH to see where a pattern would emerge.
This is what I got.

Now I can memorize where my rifle changes mph and know what my dope is.

My questions:

1. The numbers shown in red don't quite follow the trend, but are they close enough?
2. Would this be an easy way to remember your wind dopes at further distance?
3. Does this work on your rifle? Yardages for MPH changes might be different but does the general Idea work?

Comments are welcome, please chime in, this is just an Idea in progress. Thanks.

 

[Steel head]

That works.
Fairly elegant.
Fairly simple.

That’s fairly close to my 260 but it does a bit better at distance with its 147’s at 2800.

It would be interesting to se it applied to a 308 or 7mm magnum.

 

[Matches Malone]

Idk, I feel that once you get past 1000y, especially for slower cartridges like a .308, your bullet at max ord ends up in a different wind gradient. I know this has little bearing in the math that is being talked about, but I’d feel it would be harder to verify dope this way. Like say at 1500y and your bullet is like 550 inches above LOS, and you missed by (.X ) amount of mils...do you put a jump there or was there a a different gradient of wind that you can’t see? If a different gradient of wind was in terrain (x) how much would it differ in terrain (A)?

 

[Jack Master]

Idk, I feel that once you get past 1000y, especially for slower cartridges like a .308, your bullet at max ord ends up in a different wind gradient. I know this has little bearing in the math that is being talked about, but I’d feel it would be harder to verify dope this way. Like say at 1500y and your bullet is like 550 inches above LOS, and you missed by (.X ) amount of mils...do you put a jump there or was there a a different gradient of wind that you can’t see? If a different gradient of wind was in terrain (x) how much would it differ in terrain (A)?

I agree with some of this Matches. I think what you are talking about comes down to being able to call the wind in the field. At the end of finding the actual wind we should be coming to a wind speed that we are going to use to dope our rifles. Or do you do it different? Wind breaks and gradients will still be an issue if you are getting your wind call from a Kestrel or directly from a ballistic program. For the the vertical wind gradients I would add 3 mph for every 20 feet. At 550 inches I would add 6 or 7 mph to my measure wind speed at the ground/head height.
If you are holding your kestrel out and it says 12 mph, 1.8mil at 1000 yards, you still need to adjust for vertical wind gradients and wind shaded areas right? ( I don't own a kestrel so I have assumed they don't account for the vertical wind gradients. ) Kestrel says 1.8 and you make judgement call of 2.2 due to height and a grove a of trees. Using the method above, I didn't have to get the kestrel out.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Quit lining your wind cheaters up at 600 yards, is the answer to the first part.

Line it up at 1000 where it matters more and forget about the inconsequential difference at 600.

Second, past 1000 yards, take an additional 0.2 mph from your gun per every 100 yards.

If you have a 6mph gun at 1000 yards, and are shooting at 1400 yards, then figure your solution as a 5.2mph gun.

 

[Diver160651]

The wind cheat is for fast estimates at reasonable ranges. It’s especially helpful in a match situation across multiple targets at various distances and wide field of fire; when time doesn’t allow long hand or entering every shot into a calculator, think PRS/NRL. It is also great to use the actual impact into MpH communication to your squad mates.

BUT..... using this cheat at extended ranges doesn’t make much sense when you have the time to use a solver.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The wind cheat is for fast estimates at reasonable ranges. It’s especially helpful in a match situation across multiple targets at various distances and wide field of fire; when time doesn’t allow long hand or entering every shot into a calculator; think PRS/NRL. It is also great to use the actual impact into MpH communication to your squad mates.

BUT..... using this cheat at extended ranges doesn’t make much sense when you have the time to use a solver.

I don't view any of these as wind "cheats". If they accurate, then they are simply getting the right answer by understanding wind.

Understanding wind at distances beyond 1k yards is the natural next step.

I particularly enjoy calling wind at ELR distances without an app. Sometimes I do use a simple $5 solar calculator to make sure the math is right.

PRS 600 yard meatball matches are not the point of reference for all of us. Some maybe enjoy the challenge of skull fucking that far shot with what is contained in our brain.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Using the data above @ 1400 yards. The gun is a 6mph gun at 1k yards...

Our distance is an additional 400 yards, so subtract 0.2mph for every 100 yards past 1000...so our 6mph gun becomes a 5.2mph gun at 1400 yards.

5.2mph will give us 1.4mils drift at 1400.

8mph average actual wind / 5.2mph "mil" wind at 1400yds = 1.53

My 1.4 ( 0.1 per 100yds) "mil" drift x 1.53 = 2.2mils wind call.

 

[Jack Master]

Quit lining your wind cheaters up at 600 yards, is the answer to the first part.

Line it up at 1000 where it matters more and forget about the inconsequential difference at 600.

I have read where you posted this before and have looked into it. My issue with it is the error at shorter ranges multiplies by the wind bracket. Take a 308 for example. Its a 4mph gun at 600 yards and a 3mph gun at 1000 yards. with the 1000 yd setup You'll be 1/10th off at 400, 500 and 600 yards. That is okay if you have a 3mph wind, but what about a 15 mph wind. you've multiplied that 1/10 error 5 times and are off by half a mil. that's missing on a 1 MOA target and bearly catching a 1.5moa target.
I get where you are going with it, and in the right situation it would work well, but in others not so well.

 

[Jack Master]

The gun is a 6mph gun at 1k yards...

Crap - the velocuty I posted was not right. rather than 2750fps its 2650fps. I think this keeps it below 6mph at 1000.

I see where you are going with subtracting the 0.2 every 100 yards but am not a big fan of it. This makes the math hard on my brain when I'm needing it quickly.

Example - 1300 yds, subtract (.2x3)=.6... 6-.6=5.4... Divide 13mph by 5.4... crap, where was I?... bit of an exaggeration but ya get it.

With the changing gun Mile per hour I know its a 4mph gun at 1300yds and i use 1.3x3 = 3.9 for a 13 mph wind ... ... ...(actual is 4.2) WOW. I might need to do better math with these larger number anyways. that's one MOA off and 14ish inches. ... ...

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I have read where you posted this before and have looked into it. My issue with it is the error at shorter ranges multiplies by the wind bracket. Take a 308 for example. Its a 4mph gun at 600 yards and a 3mph gun at 1000 yards. with the 1000 yd setup You'll be 1/10th off at 400, 500 and 600 yards. That is okay if you have a 3mph wind, but what about a 15 mph wind. you've multiplied that 1/10 error 5 times and are off by half a mil. that's missing on a 1 MOA target and bearly catching a 1.5moa target.
I get where you are going with it, and in the right situation it would work well, but in others not so well.

People like me who shoot 308 have more to deal with for sure.

But your post isn't about 308, it's about the Creed. If you lined you Creed up at 1000 and were shooting in a 24 mph wind, you would be off 0.2mils at 600 from predicted.

For the Creed, that is equal to 2mph. You would need to call a 24mph wind to within 2mph reliably to see that error.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The

Crap - the velocuty I posted was not right. rather than 2750fps its 2650fps. I think this keeps it below 6mph at 1000.

I see where you are going with subtracting the 0.2 every 100 yards but am not a big fan of it. This makes the math hard on my brain when I'm needing it quickly.

Example - 1300 yds, subtract (.2x3)=.6... 6-.6=5.4... Divide 13mph by 5.4... crap, where was I?... bit of an exaggeration but ya get it.

With the changing gun Mile per hour I know its a 4mph gun at 1300yds and i use 1.3x3 = 3.9 for a 13 mph wind ... ... ...(actual is 4.2) WOW. I might need to do better math with these larger number anyways. that's one MOA off and 14ish inches. ... ...

The method I posted, I never meant for matches. It's more for casual ELR with inappropriate calibers. Something to keep it from getting stale.

 

[LawnMM]

Interesting, you've come up with something like stepped BCs for declining velocity in the form and stepped MPHs as distance increases.

I think that's simple and a good 'rule of thumb' but it might be taking things a little far? One would hope they'd have their act together with software, BC, MV, etc. when attempting to reach past 1k.

Do we need a rule of thumb for 1400yds? Distance and Urgency usually have an inverse relationship.

 

[Diver160651]

You’re getting so academic and diving into weeds. Absolute bullshit to think someone is going to call wind to parts of an hour. It’s a complete amalgamation of winds anyway. There are better ways.

 

[Matches Malone]

At the end of finding the actual wind we should be coming to a wind speed that we are going to use to dope our rifles. Or do you do it different?

Wind breaks and gradients will still be an issue if you are getting your wind call from a Kestrel or directly from a ballistic program. For the the vertical wind gradients I would add 3 mph for every 20 feet. At 550 inches I would add 6 or 7 mph to my measure wind speed at the ground/head height.
If you are holding your kestrel out and it says 12 mph, 1.8mil at 1000 yards, you still need to adjust for vertical wind gradients and wind shaded areas right? ( I don't own a kestrel so I have assumed they don't account for the vertical wind gradients. ) Kestrel says 1.8 and you make judgement call of 2.2 due to height and a grove a of trees. Using the method above, I didn't have to get the kestrel out.

Yes. I think that if you are going to base your dope off a chart it’s important to verify the jumps. My point comes from a recent interest I’ve taken in trying to figure out a reliable method for wind gradient using a particular formula. However there’s an exponent factor that address the “roughness” of the terrain, and it’s not a thing you probably want to be doing in the field. So I’ve been trying to find a way (or close enough) to use the exponent factors as a way to match the terrain and a average of typical wind shear and gradients at common heights in a percentage to be able to add to the wind at the shooter location (kestrel) to accommodate and minimize shooter work in the field.
This mostly applies to ELR. I don’t expect anyone on a stage to take a time out and pull up a huge white board and start crunching numbers.

The relevancy that I think we agree on is making an accurate wind call to test or verify where your BC jumps are going to be. Otherwise you might as well just look up your mph gun out to 1 million yards away on your ballistic computer @ a 90 degree wind and write out a chart and call it our best guess. The further out we go, the less margin for error there is, and all the little .1 and .2 mils of error start to add up to more misses.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

You’re getting so academic and diving into weeds. Absolute bullshit to think someone is going to call wind to parts of an hour. It’s a complete amalgamation of winds anyway. There are better ways.

I'll certainly leave you to it then.

 

[Matches Malone]

Absolute bullshit to think someone is going to call wind to parts of an hour.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Diver160651]

Speak for yourself.

No problem - I do. We have an entire season of matches we through and you are welcome to come to any on me, you can prove me wrong without your keyboard. I don’t care what place you finish as that’s not the point, but reading wind and how you center up on the targets is, to parts of mph and that will be on you. Btw or range is in the hills so you’ll get lots of wind with lots of ground effects. When you register, make sure you DM me so I have your real contact and can get you in for free.

Look is up on practiscore. We also do several ELR shoots. The only image I have on my phone is of our team match— this particular match was sold out almost 10 months in advance.. but look up our others. We have 2 regional qualifiers + 1 pro series, 7 regional series -

Will have 2 dates for ELR (not on practiscore)

All hide guys in the image, but most are on the second range on the right at 90* to the range pictured. (Downloaded the image I posted earlier in the ELR thread)

Jim

 

[Jack Master]

No problem - I do. We have an entire season of matches we through and you are welcome to come to any on me, you can prove me wrong without your keyboard. I don’t care what place you finish as that’s not the point, but reading wind and how you center up on the targets is, to parts of mph and that will be on you. Btw or range is in the hills so you’ll get lots of wind with lots of ground effects. When you register, make sure you DM me so I have your real contact and can get you in for free.

Look is up on practiscore. We also do several ELR shoots. The only image I have on my phone is of our team match— this particular match was sold out almost 10 months in advance.. but look up our others. We have 2 regional qualifiers + 1 pro series, 7 regional series -
View attachment 7255194

Will have 2 dates for ELR (not on practiscore)
View attachment 7255196
All hide guys in the image, but most are on the second range on the right at 90* to the range pictured. (Downloaded the image I posted earlier in the ELR thread)

Jim

So tell us. What is your method for doping the wind a longer ranges? 1300 yard shot. Kestrel? Calculator? Licked finger in the air? Gut feel?
Some how you have to get a starting wind call, then adjust to the terrain and wind effects, but, how do you get YOUR starting wind call? or total wind call for that matter? Please tell me you don't just "Left edge and see what Happens".

 

[M8541Reaper]

So tell us. What is your method for doping the wind a longer ranges? 1300 yard shot. Kestrel? Calculator? Licked finger in the air? Gut feel?
Some how you have to get a starting wind call, then adjust to the terrain and wind effects, but, how do you get YOUR starting wind call? or total wind call for that matter? Please tell me you don't just "Left edge and see what Happens".

You forgot shaking a magic 8 ball.

 

[Diver160651]

So tell us. What is your method for doping the wind a longer ranges? 1300 yard shot. Kestrel? Calculator? Licked finger in the air? Gut feel?
Some how you have to get a starting wind call, then adjust to the terrain and wind effects, but, how do you get YOUR starting wind call? or total wind call for that matter? Please tell me you don't just "Left edge and see what Happens".

Look at your post #10 you are basically outlining nicely the issue I was talking about with going to far into the weeds with braking down the math even further manually. Especially to a granularity we can not realistically determine anyway.

Nobody is going to read the wind down to parts of an MPH without LIDAR. BTW even then you have to calibrate the output to the solver, just like we have our brains.

Any amount of time the shooter takes to make their wind call that is away and off the spotter or increases the time between shots, is a bad variable in ELR. This is especially true for a caliber not well suited for the distance. For me, the method you used is better than trying to do long hand because of the time you save. The wind does change as we know. I use a similar method to you, but use the +.1 method rather than trying to change my brain and redo the wind MPH that I know has been working all day on other targets. That way whatever FV component I've used (Wind speed and direction converted to a New FV MPH), the basic math is done. The plus is all the years of learning what looks like (to me) as a 12mph FV still looks like a 12mph FV. The wind budget and how you apply it is the biggest key.

It might be worth noting for those that think PRS/NRL/Field match shooters do not see long ranges, or are only edge of plate guys: Many matches in the West are very,very windy and its not uncommon to see a target in that 12-1400y range. All that said yep, we all still miss. Not sure what the hate about guys shooting matches comes from or why people might think they are only capable of is just hold the edge of plate. Where do you think the popularity of the armboard wind and wind budgets came from?

That said, yes, for ELR I might have taken a quick mechanical wind read at the FFP just to confirm my base, then I spend my time on glass and quickly punch "my" wind (not the Kestrel's) into the solver for the fastest result for that first round send. The reason I say is "my" wind is we all use a variety of indicators (many you outlined) to determine what to put into our solver, and while it might work, my brain calibration might not be 100% accurate. But as ELR distances increase, I'll still use the solver for that first shot as the per 100 yard thing, really starts to brake down very rapidly and it starts error stacking.

As an example of what I mean by "my" wind: Lets say at 1400 on my 6mm, I might "think" the wind is 6mph and is FV at 3 o'clock /90° for a 2mil wind. But the real average wind is 7mph at 2.. Same 2 mil hold.. It is the same because for whatever reason my brain is seeing the wind over years and years a certain way, trained by my past dope cards and the advent of coldbase, cold bore, FFS, etc or more recently the Kestrel. My point is we might be wrong, but it might still be working. In reality, It's probably on a good day, not 6 from 3, but maybe 8 from 2ish and if I enter my 2mph wind miss read and even at +.3 might be very close on the first shot on a .5mil plate. Adding a bit of wind budget to the wrong wind call, is the bases for really helping the odds of an impact.

FWIW I am talking about initial wind calls in the open not walked in rounds on a benchrest target were the skill set is not looking at the actual wind value, just the small changes between them, hence the value of the spotter rounds before each record. Like many on here I have had the pleasure to shoot next to some amazing wind readers and they are not capable of looking out to ELR distances and call wind to the part of MPH.. if the wind is up, not even to the MPH.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Nobody is going to read the wind down to parts of an MPH without LIDAR.

Nobody ever said that.

What was said... was to understand how decreasing velocity affects the wind bucking ability of your bullet past 1,000 yards. That is a number that is discoverable. It can be determined and accounted for. That part isn't voodoo.

I said 0.2mph per 100 yards decrease past 1,000 yards. This is the math I use, and it works to varying distances with different calibers. With my 338AX, it works to 2,000 yards. With my 308, it works to 1,500 yards. Jack has a larger bracket, but it is exactly the same concept we are talking about.

There is no rule of thumb for distances that far. The difference between the parabolic curve and the straight angle is too great. Every single shot has to be treated as an individual equation, thus the need for the math.

When you are taking shots that far, everybody knows that you are taking a swag. We are all trying to come up with a composite call...an average wind that will get us either on target, or really close for the follow up.

We get how it works. We don't need you to tell us. We've done it too. What we are attempting to refine is the math. To learn how this works without resorting to an app.

As I said before, some small group of us maybe want to really understand how this works with knowledge we keep in our brain. Whether or not it can be done on the clock, in some match, I personally don't give a fuck.

 

[Diver160651]

Nobody ever said that.

What was said... was to understand how decreasing velocity affects the wind bucking ability of your bullet past 1,000 yards. That is a number that is discoverable. It can be determined and accounted for. That part isn't voodoo.

I said 0.2mph per 100 yards decrease past 1,000 yards. This is the math I use, and it works to varying distances with different calibers. With my 338AX, it works to 2,000 yards. With my 308, it works to 1,500 yards. Jack has a larger bracket, but it is exactly the same concept we are talking about.

There is no rule of thumb for distances that far. The difference between the parabolic curve and the straight angle is too great. Every single shot has to be treated as an individual equation, thus the need for the math.

When you are taking shots that far, everybody knows that you are taking a swag. We are all trying to come up with a composite call...an average wind that will get us either on target, or really close for the follow up.

We get how it works. We don't need you to tell us. We've done it too. What we are attempting to refine is the math. To learn how this works without resorting to an app.

As I said before, some small group of us maybe want to really understand how this works with knowledge we keep in our brain. Whether or not it can be done on the clock, in some match, I personally don't give a fuck.

I was asked how I do ELR wind, I am sure it was an attempt at sarcasm, but I answered. I also answered why and said that I believe it’s still faster/easier “if” your doing ELR wind on a card to modify the hold brackets not what your eyes see and recalculate base FV for each shot distance.

Sense you’ve shoot a lot of ELR, you know that depending on the wind the granularity of the correction needed for .1 wind (once you’re in that 25mil+ bracket/steep end of "parabolic curve"), can become nearly every 25yards. Basically, I am only restating what you said above. What should be included is that your mostly likely on a solver to begin with as cards become unmanageable for the small changes in distance. As you know, 5 yards or less start becoming .1mil of correction.

Your a smart guy and spend lots of time on the solvers trying to deconstruct this stuff. If you don’t see the issues of modifying base FV wind values for each distance in ELR and using them in practice on the fly, or don’t want them pointed out; not sure what to say. BTW, I'm not saying not to have some sort of backup plan, that's never been my point.

You've said you don’t “give a fuck” about the clock and would rather run your FV base wind over just adding a .1 or using the same solver you just used for the drop. But what happens in ELR, isn’t there a real and important clock from wind READ to the execution of the wind call?

Again we've all scene this or stuff like it; but figured it worth pointing out (again) we all shoot against the clock. That point was in my reply but seems to have been missed. (The video is more for those that might stumble on the thread - not for those that have spent 10’s of thousands $$ tossing ammo past 2k). Clearly one can see a very healthy wind switching 180°, in seconds.

Video from a series of ELR camera tests I was doing. Original camera setup was started in 08, posted in Scout in 12, modified and posted here in 17. So some of the tech is dated. link to my ELR DIY Camera thread here

I never said you can’t try to understand the principle and not sure why your taking this a bit to personal. I do think if all everyone is doing is an academic exercise, maybe the real application pitfalls should also be addressed or discussed, wouldn’t you think?

 

[Jack Master]

So I'm not hearing any Real negatives to the Idea. Sounds like it could have validity as a rule of thumb. This is all I ever intended it to to be. Longer range wind calling is a dynamic process but its good to have a quick starting point. For shooters that might shoot 1200 or 1300 on occasion it could be a worth while tool. Avid longer range (+1500yds) shooters will find this not effective for wind calling.

I'm going to try this the next time out the range and use it as a rough estimate for the starting point, then check it with a calculator, then check it with shooting. I'll Probably round the red numbers up or down to fit thier yardage and run with it as shown below. Its swag at over 1000 yds with 6.5 creed anyways.

Other Caliber Comparisons
After playing the JMB's wind chart calculator I am seeing this "red number issue" with most calibers. This tells me it can only be a rule of thumb and it will get you close. Most calibers you can find where you'll be a 1/10th high or low and change gun mph when there is 2/10th deviation. I think using @Skookum method of reducing the gun mph by 0.2 for each added 100 yds might be more accurate but also take more head math to get it right. The method I presented is more course (could have more error) but is simple for me to remember.

 

[Makinchips208]

I was asked how I do ELR wind, I am sure it was an attempt at sarcasm, but I answered. I also answered why and said that I believe it’s still faster/easier “if” your doing ELR wind on a card to modify the hold brackets not what your eyes see and recalculate base FV for each shot distance.

Sense you’ve shoot a lot of ELR, you know that depending on the wind the granularity of the correction needed for .1 wind (once you’re in that 25mil+ bracket/steep end of "parabolic curve"), can become nearly every 25yards. Basically, I am only restating what you said above. What should be included is that your mostly likely on a solver to begin with as cards become unmanageable for the small changes in distance. As you know, 5 yards or less start becoming .1mil of correction.

Your a smart guy and spend lots of time on the solvers trying to deconstruct this stuff. If you don’t see the issues of modifying base FV wind values for each distance in ELR and using them in practice on the fly, or don’t want them pointed out; not sure what to say. BTW, I'm not saying not to have some sort of backup plan, that's never been my point.

You've said you don’t “give a fuck” about the clock and would rather run your FV base wind over just adding a .1 or using the same solver you just used for the drop. But what happens in ELR, isn’t there a real and important clock from wind READ to the execution of the wind call?

Again we've all scene this or stuff like it; but figured it worth pointing out (again) we all shoot against the clock. That point was in my reply but seems to have been missed. (The video is more for those that might stumble on the thread - not for those that have spent 10’s of thousands $$ tossing ammo past 2k). Clearly one can see a very healthy wind switching 180°, in seconds.

Video from a series of ELR camera tests I was doing. Original camera setup was started in 08, posted in Scout in 12, modified and posted here in 17. So some of the tech is dated. link to my ELR DIY Camera thread here

I never said you can’t try to understand the principle and not sure why your taking this a bit to personal. I do think if all everyone is doing is an academic exercise, maybe the real application pitfalls should also be addressed or discussed, wouldn’t you think?

Thread necromancy.
That video that shows “180 degree wind change in seconds” covers a lot more than a few seconds. Watch the clouds. Someone heavily edited it. Just saying.

 

[Diver160651]

Thread necromancy.
That video that shows “180 degree wind change in seconds” covers a lot more than a few seconds. Watch the clouds. Someone heavily edited it. Just saying.

Yep it was started and stopped but the wind was switching and the it would go as it often does in the Carson sink, 180 in a few seconds

 

[Makinchips208]

Agree, in some places wind does some very different things very quickly.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Definitely worth the resurrection though. Imagine if someone hadn’t noticed that.