Extraction issues

[littlepod]

I'm trying to diagnose some extraction issues with my rimfire. Yesterday it shot fine, went through 50 rounds, had a great day. Today I went to do some drills and I was having a bunch of extraction issues. Like one out of every 9 rounds wouldn't extract. The casing would be stuck flush in the barrel. I had to eject the mag, and if I ran the bolt forward and cammed it down and then pulled it back, it still wouldn't eject. But if I ran the bolt forward, cammed it, and then fired the rifle, and then pulled back, it would eject. So somehow the firing pin hitting the rim again, loosened it? And then it allowed it to eject?

I then tightened up the headspace a little bit, and it got worse, so then I went to loosen up the headspacing, and it got too dark to fire again so I'll have to find a break from work to be able to try adjusting it more.

Any ideas for things to test and try? The only thing I can think of was adjusting the headspace some more, and I was sure to make sure my extractor cut on the barrel was lined up with the extractor and at 90 degrees.

Thanks.

 

[Alabusa]

Are you shooting a Savage MKii by chance?

 

[littlepod]

Are you shooting a Savage MKii by chance?

Nope, this is a new Tikka T1X IBI Barrel. I had the gunsmith file/polish in a feed ramp. I am not sure how that would cause extraction issues though. The cases of ones that extract and ones that don't extract look the same.

The one thing that stands out is that if I run the bolt it won't extract, I have to pull the trigger again to have it extract. What does pulling the trigger do to the extractor? I know the extractor moves, but I am uncertain what adjustment / diagnosis that means for me to do.

 

[Alabusa]

You may have a carbon ring that is causing it to hang up. Try doing a detailed cleaning of the chamber and see if it helps.

 

[littlepod]

You may have a carbon ring that is causing it to hang up. Try doing a detailed cleaning of the chamber and see if it helps.

Thanks I'll have to give that a try.

The barrel is pretty new though, only 600 rounds through it, I've cleaned a few times, just not any heavy scrubbing in the chamber area.

 

[straightshooter1]

You may have a carbon ring that is causing it to hang up. Try doing a detailed cleaning of the chamber and see if it helps.

This was my first thought.

 

[littlepod]

This was my first thought.

Can anyone explain how headspace might affect extraction?

 

[simpletoms]

Can anyone explain how headspace might affect extraction?

Carbon ring/dirty chamber, easiest place to start.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It’s either an extractor issue or the chamber is too tight for the ammo you are using.

Pretty common occurrence with .22

 

[littlepod]

It’s either an extractor issue or the chamber is too tight for the ammo you are using.

Pretty common occurrence with .22

It's been firing fine for about 600 rounds, SK Standard Plus. I had a gunsmith put in a small feed ramp for me, and I wonder if that's causing weird case expansion issues, which is making it sticky. If I pry out the casing and put it back in by hand, it's fine. So I guess maybe a carbon ring is causing things to stick... going to soak the chamber area with C4 for a bit. Then I'll do a scrub...

I've shot 600 rounds of SK+ and Center-X and other SK ammo, never had a extraction issue until I got my barrel with a slight feed ramp.

I then shot 50 more rounds yesterday w/o any hitch. Went to the range this morning to practice drills and was getting FTE like one out of every 10 rounds. Where the cartridge was fully seated in the barrel. Had to recam the bolt, pull the trigger, then it'd extract.

I've only ever wet patched / dry patched the barrel. I'm soaking the chamber now with C4 Eliminator for 45 min, and then I'll take a brush to it, and finish up the cleaning work... will try again tomorrow hopefully if I can get out of work.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Another thing to check is to see if there is some kind of debris under the extractor that keeps it from fully engaging the case rim. I don't know how the T1X extractor(s) are tensioned... if there is a coil spring/plunger arrangement that pushes the extractor against the case rim, make sure all that is clean as well.

How do I know? My Vudoo began exhibiting the same trait. Straightaway, they told me to send it back and provided a shipping label. I asked if changing the extractor was something I could do myself... short answer is, I received a new extractor/plunger/spring set and instructions on how to change them. I wouldn't recommend the attempt being made by someone without some background in this sort of thing... anyway, new extractors/springs ==> problem solved.

Even with magnification, I couldn't see any difference in the old and new extractors. I do wonder if my problem would have been resolved by simply removing the extractors/springs/plungers and cleaning everything, and then reinstalling, would have resolved the issue.
---------
Compare that to my experience with Tikka... My T3X Varmint .223 has always suffered with weak primer strikes, which became intolerable due to misfires with CCI450 primers which functioned just fine in two other rifles. Checked all the potential culprits... everything checked out... well-known regional gunsmith back-checked me... no doubt, said he, you need a new firing pin spring. No one makes springs for Tikka, not even Wolff. Would Tikka/Beretta send a new spring to my LGS, an authorized dealer? Nope. Send the bolt in? Nope. Send the whole rifle. So removed the scope and rail, removed the AO bolt handle, pulled barreled action out of the chassis, reinstalled all the factory crap, and LGS sent it back to Beretta. They've had it almost a month. No word. Both my Tikkas are/were buttery smooth to run and superbly accurate, but I'll never own another one because of this nonsense!

 

[littlepod]

Another thing to check is to see if there is some kind of debris under the extractor that keeps it from fully engaging the case rim. I don't know how the T1X extractor(s) are tensioned... if there is a coil spring/plunger arrangement that pushes the extractor against the case rim, make sure all that is clean as well.

How do I know? My Vudoo began exhibiting the same trait. Straightaway, they told me to send it back and provided a shipping label. I asked if changing the extractor was something I could do myself... short answer is, I received a new extractor/plunger/spring set and instructions on how to change them. I wouldn't recommend the attempt being made by someone without some background in this sort of thing... anyway, new extractors/springs ==> problem solved.

Even with magnification, I couldn't see any difference in the old and new extractors. I do wonder if my problem would have been resolved by simply removing the extractors/springs/plungers and cleaning everything, and then reinstalling, would have resolved the issue.
---------
Compare that to my experience with Tikka... My T3X Varmint .223 has always suffered with weak primer strikes, which became intolerable due to misfires with CCI450 primers which functioned just fine in two other rifles. Checked all the potential culprits... everything checked out... well-known regional gunsmith back-checked me... no doubt, said he, you need a new firing pin spring. No one makes springs for Tikka, not even Wolff. Would Tikka/Beretta send a new spring to my LGS, an authorized dealer? Nope. Send the bolt in? Nope. Send the whole rifle. So removed the scope and rail, removed the AO bolt handle, pulled barreled action out of the chassis, reinstalled all the factory crap, and LGS sent it back to Beretta. They've had it almost a month. No word. Both my Tikkas are/were buttery smooth to run and superbly accurate, but I'll never own another one because of this nonsense!

I'll check the extractor, more to see, but it seats rounds correctly during feeding and does pull out rounds most of time. Only started failing yesterday, maybe it's carbon ring.

Around your tikka parts -

Tikka T3 / T3X Firing Pin Assembly

Check out the deal on Tikka T3 / T3X Firing Pin Assembly at MGW

www.midwestgunworks.com

midwest gunworks generally has replacement oem tikka parts for t1x and t3x.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I'll check the extractor, more to see, but it seats rounds correctly during feeding and does pull out rounds most of time. Only started failing yesterday, maybe it's carbon ring.

Around your tikka parts -

Tikka T3 / T3X Firing Pin Assembly

Check out the deal on Tikka T3 / T3X Firing Pin Assembly at MGW

www.midwestgunworks.com

midwest gunworks generally has replacement oem tikka parts for t1x and t3x.

Thanks, but no d*** way I'm spending over $100 for a new firing pin assembly when all it needs is a spring. There's no question that my LGS and Beretta will take care of the issue at no cost to me other than time lost and gasoline burned on the trips to LGS. My gripe is how complicated Beretta has made it. Again, both my Tikka rifles were excellent until I needed a simple part.

Edit: yeah, my Vudoo had no issues with feeding/seating/etc. either, and a Hawkeye borescope confirmed that there was no carbon ring in the mirror-clean chamber or leade. Something happened to extractors/springs.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It's been firing fine for about 600 rounds, SK Standard Plus. I had a gunsmith put in a small feed ramp for me, and I wonder if that's causing weird case expansion issues, which is making it sticky. If I pry out the casing and put it back in by hand, it's fine. So I guess maybe a carbon ring is causing things to stick... going to soak the chamber area with C4 for a bit. Then I'll do a scrub...

I've shot 600 rounds of SK+ and Center-X and other SK ammo, never had a extraction issue until I got my barrel with a slight feed ramp.

View attachment 7198375

I then shot 50 more rounds yesterday w/o any hitch. Went to the range this morning to practice drills and was getting FTE like one out of every 10 rounds. Where the cartridge was fully seated in the barrel. Had to recam the bolt, pull the trigger, then it'd extract.

I've only ever wet patched / dry patched the barrel. I'm soaking the chamber now with C4 Eliminator for 45 min, and then I'll take a brush to it, and finish up the cleaning work... will try again tomorrow hopefully if I can get out of work.

I can almost promise it’s not a carbon ring at 600 rnds.

Extractor springs likely.

 

[littlepod]

I can almost promise it’s not a carbon ring at 600 rnds.

Extractor springs likely.

I called the barrel company and he said he never cleans the carbon ring out of his rimfire, he just runs a nylon brush at the chamber, before the throat and cleans out any wax/lube buildup that happens. He does that every few hundred rounds, so basically inserts his nylon brush the length of the rimfire brass and scrubs there.

I ended up doing a full cleaning since I did it last night before calling him. I soaked the chamber in Carbon C4 and then I ran a bronze brush, rotated and scrubbed, rotated and scrubbed.

Managed to get out today and shoot 35 rounds, and had zero issues extracting. Didn't have time to shoot more. Verified my zero/poi at 25 yards, fouled 15 rounds hitting the 1/4" bullseyes and then shot 4 groups of 5 at 100, doing .6" groups and called it a day. NRL22 match Saturday so hopefully all stays good and functional.

Barrel maker said that he never cleans his rifle unless he sees a drop off in precision. And leaves the carbon ring, and fouling, and everything in his barrel until something bad happens. The only thing he cleans is the chamber with a nylon brush to get the wax/lube cleared out of it. Vudoo's probably don't have this issue at all since it's control fed and the lead bullet never scrapes the barrel. Since my rifle feeds at an angle I'm constantly rubbing lube all over the chamber.

 

[reichco457]

You may have a carbon ring that is causing it to hang up. Try doing a detailed cleaning of the chamber and see if it helps.

I just read this post where I had a similar issue with my CZ457 VPT with Lilija Barrel.Using multiple CCI SV my bolt would not extract. I changed to another box and it extracted.
With above said when I cleaned the barrel my cleaning rod and patch was difficult to push it thru. Each time with a new patch and oil solvent it got easier maybe 2/3 times. Then it was smooth sailing. Which the issue was is exactly what Albusa commented on Carbon Build Up. So I need to absolutely confirm it was either a partial CCI SV were faulty , or in conjunction with Carbon Ring created the problem. I had not cleaned my barrel after 2-3 trips to the range.

 

[littlepod]

I just read this post where I had a similar issue with my CZ457 VPT with Lilija Barrel.Using multiple CCI SV my bolt would not extract. I changed to another box and it extracted.
With above said when I cleaned the barrel my cleaning rod and patch was difficult to push it thru. Each time with a new patch and oil solvent it got easier maybe 2/3 times. Then it was smooth sailing. Which the issue was is exactly what Albusa commented on Carbon Build Up. So I need to absolutely confirm it was either a partial CCI SV were faulty , or in conjunction with Carbon Ring created the problem. I had not cleaned my barrel after 2-3 trips to the range.

I'm not using CCI SV, just match ammo Center-X so I don't think the Center-X is faulty. I just think it's a really tight chamber. I have a Win52D chamber which is particularly tight.

Followup was I went to a NRL22 match, after having about 70 rounds no issue, and shot another 65 rounds at the match. On round # 48 I had an extraction issue, went to cycle, it wouldn't checked the chamber I had jammed the next round into the previous round, eject mag, throw round away, cycle bolt, extract round, put new mag in... I barely got off my last shot on time. Then luckily I went through the last stage with no extraction issues.

I went home and ran just the nylon brush back and forth in the chamber, and pushed a dry patch through. It took about 5 rounds to refoul my barrel before it shot okay the next outing. (Went straight to 100 yards, first 4 rounds were about 1" high and spread out. Then the next 5 were a 1/2" group at my normal POI @ 100).

I have a match Sunday, so going to practice Saturday, bring my Nylon brush, scrub it good, and then send 10 rounds down before I pack up.

 

[slodsm]

If it’s only doing it with unfired rounds, then there isn’t a problem. That’s just the nature of a match chamber in a 22. The bullet engages the lands fully and won’t release worth a crap until it’s fired. The win52 and the eley chambers both have tons of reports of this happening.

 

[littlepod]

If it’s only doing it with unfired rounds, then there isn’t a problem. That’s just the nature of a match chamber in a 22. The bullet engages the lands fully and won’t release worth a crap until it’s fired. The win52 and the eley chambers both have tons of reports of this happening.

This is doing it with spent rounds. Spent rimfire casing won't come out unless I cycle the bolt again, pull the trigger, and then it will extract. If I just cycle the bolt it still won't extract. Not sure what pulling the trigger does... ? Shakes the casing? Engages the extractor claw? But if I don't pull the trigger again, the stuck spent casing won't come out.

With a cleaning of the chamber, then everything is smooth again for ~125 rounds or so.

Yes unfired rounds never come out I accidentally chambered one at home the other day as I was looking at the feed angles, and had to get a rod to push the round.

 

[KAIFS]

I do NOT OWN this exact rifle. With that said, there was a mention above of an actual extractor claw being weak.
So, is your extractor tension done by the means of: hole+spring+plunger+extractor?
If so, I had similar extraction issues (would perform great when cleaned but slowly fail to grab the case to extract (live or fired)...
It was a weak spring (pushes on a plunger, which in turn pushes on an extractor claw/arm) issue in my rifles.
Replaced spring. Works beautifully for about 1.4k rounds, same issues again.
Well, SOB, took out and stretched by hand spring again- good for about 300rds, starts up again.
SOB.
This is where i decided to use a spring spacer. In my spare parts for diopters, I find a tiny bearing (used to provide positive clicks and rotation for dials) with diameter just smaller than a channel/hole which houses spring and a plunger. Dropped 1 bearing inside of the hole/channel, put spring in and plunger, pressed on the plunger and reinstalled extractor arm/claw. Close to to 2800rds on one rifle and about 1.3k on another and 0 instances of FTEx.
Perhaps a spacer of sorts might help you out if design permits.

 

[Hellbender]

Check very carefully and make sure your extractor is not hitting the extractor cut in the bbl when a case is in the chamber.
This would hold the extractor away from the rim.
Nothing should touch but the very sharp tip of the hook.
It's also possible that the gunsmith did not cut the slot to the proper depth and/or radius.

The reason it will work the 2nd time is that you are hitting the case with the firing pin and that shoves the fired case forward, breaking the case seal and possibly moving it just enough for the extractor to catch it.

This would change, and get worse, with tighter headspace adjustment (ie, moving bbl closer to the bolt will push the extractor outward)

 

[beetroot]

@littlepod did you ever find a solution to this before you upgraded to a Vudoo?

I've re-barrelled my T1x and have the exact same issue as in you were having.
Rifle didn't have any issues with the factory barrel but with the new barrel will get cases that wont extract.

CCI SV will fail to extract about 50% of the time, Eley Standard and Eley Club will fail to extract about 10% of the time.
Also about 600 rounds through the barrel but it's been doing this from the start, as the rifle gets dirty the extraction gets worse.

 

[Fasteddie01]

Beetroot, He first said he was not especially cleaning the chamber, then at Post 19 says the prob nowrecurs at ca 125 rounds. That's about when I find accuracy falling off (ca 150 or so) with my CZ VMTR altho I Don't get 'extraction issues' with either of my CZs. However, I don't let the round count go much past 150 without at least a C4 patch thru the chamber while at the range. Even a 'beginning' Carbon Ring can cause cases to stick and also drag on the bullet causing irregularities. I Always clean the chamber at home, doing a thorough C4 cleaning of the chamber then pulling the damp patch on thru the bore after a 15+ min chamber soak. I've been using C4 for about 5-years with no regrets - except the cost. About $70 / 16-oz CDN last Winter. And I NEVER let the rounds count go over 150 without some sort of cleaning, even on my Sav-64 !

 

[littlepod]

I bent the spring, and would have to adjust it every once in a while as it tensioned differently over time. I think the new tikka t1x have a different ejector mechanism though.

 

[beetroot]

I bent the spring, and would have to adjust it every once in a while as it tensioned differently over time. I think the new tikka t1x have a different ejector mechanism though.

Did this fix the problem?
It sounded like your rifle wasn't extracting the case from the chamber, rather than not ejecting it once extracted?

I've sent my rifle back to smith who did the re-barrel anyway, will see what he says.

 

[beetroot]

Beetroot, He first said he was not especially cleaning the chamber, then at Post 19 says the prob nowrecurs at ca 125 rounds. That's about when I find accuracy falling off (ca 150 or so) with my CZ VMTR altho I Don't get 'extraction issues' with either of my CZs. However, I don't let the round count go much past 150 without at least a C4 patch thru the chamber while at the range. Even a 'beginning' Carbon Ring can cause cases to stick and also drag on the bullet causing irregularities. I Always clean the chamber at home, doing a thorough C4 cleaning of the chamber then pulling the damp patch on thru the bore after a 15+ min chamber soak. I've been using C4 for about 5-years with no regrets - except the cost. About $70 / 16-oz CDN last Winter. And I NEVER let the rounds count go over 150 without some sort of cleaning, even on my Sav-64 !

In my case that's not really going to work.
During a shooting match I'll easily put 150-200 round through the rifle in a single day, and cleaning between stages isn't something I want to do.

The older barrel would go 500-1000 rounds easy without ever having an issue, so I'm guessing the new match chamber is just too tight for NRL/PRS type shooting. I've sent the rifle back to be investigated, the smith seem's to think the chamber is just too tight for certain types of ammo.

The chamber is cut for Eley Tenex/Match/Team which I didn't actually try through the rifle, but I'd like the option to shoot other ammo types either for training or if I can get a steady supply of the above Eley, so have sent it back to see what can be done.

 

[ratton]

In have the same problem as beetroot. My 40XB 22lr runs fine with Eley, Ruag and RWS ammo. It just with not extract SK ammo after firing. Any thoughts?

 

[6.5SH]

In my case that's not really going to work.
During a shooting match I'll easily put 150-200 round through the rifle in a single day, and cleaning between stages isn't something I want to do.

The older barrel would go 500-1000 rounds easy without ever having an issue, so I'm guessing the new match chamber is just too tight for NRL/PRS type shooting. I've sent the rifle back to be investigated, the smith seem's to think the chamber is just too tight for certain types of ammo.

The chamber is cut for Eley Tenex/Match/Team which I didn't actually try through the rifle, but I'd like the option to shoot other ammo types either for training or if I can get a steady supply of the above Eley, so have sent it back to see what can be done.

On the T1x extraction and ejection are related issues. You may not want to try this without a spare extractor in hand.

Tikka T1X

I think you’re confusing two groups with two types of ammo he mentions. SK is .5 and Eley is under an inch yet So, that was what is confusing him? Thanks.

www.snipershide.com

The UK thread I followed:

Sako Quad Extractor claw modification

Those who have one will recognise a well documented problem that sometimes affects unloading live/unfired .22lr rounds. (for some reason not .17M2, I think due to nin waxy tapered rounds that dont touch the lands) It comes down to the claw being designed for both small rimmed .22lr/.17M2 rounds...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

I also took some off the inside per another guide but it really didn't make much of a difference, keeping the claw ON the rim did.
There is also the possibility the extractor SPRING has gotten weak so circles back to maybe have the replacement part kit on hand.

ETA:
accidentally left out "spring" at the end.

 

[beetroot]

As an update to my extraction issue.
Sent my rifle back to gun Smith and they reworked it, I think combination of extractor groove and chamber.

Put 200 rounds through it today and didn't have any extraction issues, however ejection seems a little weaker than usual.

Might look at getting a new extractor and spring, and ejection spring. Rifle has had quite a few rounds through it since new.

Worst case is I'd have some spare parts.

 

[AirGunShawn]

I'm often surprised at some of the issues that still seem to exist. Below is a case from a 1957 Linehard / Anschutz conversion
and you can see that the extractor isn't going to let go of any case rim. Its extractor has a profile that surrounds the case diameter and has a sharp edge. It is similar to the 1945 French MAS bolt attached in image #2 and #3 They put a little bit of thought into the finger shape to insure extraction. My Springfield 1922 has a very robust, side mounted leaf type extractor that is also bomb proof. See image #4. Most of the newer guns like my B14R or even my Vudoo have simple, thin extractors with no case profile at all. If they figured it out in 1922, 1945 and 1957, why are the manufactures having so many issues now? A typical design approach is to springboard from prior designs and make improvements upon them, not start over from scratch. Adding springs to overcome a poor design is just a band-aid. Also consider that making profiled extractor fingers in 1922 thru 1597 took a little more time and effort. With today's multi axis tools it should be a non-event. I just looked at a few of my rifles and many have fingers that have a similar design as image #2. They took great care when designing the finger. I looked at My B14R a year ago when people were complaining about FTE and noted that the finger was about .060" wide and the clearance area for it is over .187" wide at its narrowest point. So in theory, you could get an extra factory extractor, mill the slot in the bolt to .12" wide and have a double finger extractor system with very little work. A new .12 dia. spring could be installed too. My Bergara never had any FTE issue but I only shot good match ammo. I normally get a few spare parts for all of my guns....My Vudoo extractors and springs have to be described as "SNEAKY" to remove. LoL They don't have any pivot pins or obvious modes of retention.