extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

[tolnep]

i will be reloading for a remington 5r 700 308 24 inch barrel.

im new to reloading. but my work demands very complex and precise attention to detail so im used to complex operations taken with great care.

current reloading equipment consists of forster co-ax, redding competition die set, wilson micromenter case trimmer, bullet ogive comparator, headspace measurement gauge, fairly high end digital micrometer, rcbs chargemaster 1500 (just the scale) rcbs powder thrower to underthrow the starting powder charge. and a double beam pharmacy scale i've had for a number of years (obtained from a family owned drugstore years ago).

so after scanning the threads here there seems to be a group of folks that use very expensive weighing equipment. not just the prometheus which is both expensive and precise but also 'fast', but very precise digital scales costing over $1000 (sartorius types).

and my question is, is the extreme accuracy worth the money? for non benchrest shooters anyway. BTW, the prometheus is nice but at 3000 and a wait that one not something i would consider.

note that the pharmacy scale, while precise up to a point and a great way to compare against the chargemaster, is no where near the accuracy of the current lab units some folks are using.

as an aside, after doing 100 cases with the wilson hand cranked micrometer trimmer, which does a great job and then coming back to chamfer, my next big purchase is going to be a giraud..

 

[country888]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

The short answer is no, unless your shooting bench rest. Most rifles cant tell the difference between one to two tenth's of a grain. I try to stay within one tenth for my reloading just to please myself.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

to win one must have a good gun
to win with a good gun one must have good ammo
to get good ammo balance beam technology is the most accurate
to get accurate, consistent, repeatable ammo in a timely manner

there is only one answer,get what the champions use.....


nuff said, i'll post the picture again if i must

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

tolnep, I'd say you're up to speed, maybe above the level of your gun already. Scales that cost thousands of dollars are a bit of a joke, in my opinion. You know, all those benchrest guys use thrown charges, right? They handload at the shooting bench, where a scale wouldn't work anyway.

You have a factory rifle so there is just so much accuracy potential. Realistically. It either is a one in a million or more probably, average accuracy. So, no matter what you do on the handloading bench, you probably will not see benefit on paper; it's incremental at best, and mostly subject to the physical conditions, wind, mirage, etceteras. In other words, variations in the weight of your propellent might be the least of your worries. BB

 

[427Cobra]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

1-2-3 at this years Snipershide Cup used a Prometheus Gen2, David Tubb used a Gen1 Prometheus to win many of his titles, being able to make high quality ammo with rock solid repeatability can only be made high quality tools, it's also nice to charge and seat 250 rounds in 70 minutes with each charge within 1/3 of a kernel. I work 12hr days, 2.5hr commutes, my time is limited, so when I want to shoot I can't afford wasting hours making ammo, so the Giraud Trimmer and Gen2 Prometheus were wise investments for me, next I'm going to mount my Gen2 on a Dillon 550, less time reloading equals more time shooting, if one can't afford the hi dollar tool I can respect that, BUT do not dismiss there value based on price.

 

[GardDog]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

I had the pleasure of using CKA's Prometheus on my last trip to NTRP. I loved the accuracy, but couldn't afford the price tag. I bought a Sartorius scale and performed a check on the accuracy my Chargemaster.

Here's the thread: Link

 

[Heman]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

Beg to differ. Bryan Litz, John Whidden, Kent Reeve, Nancy Thompkins, Sherri and Mechelle's ammo aren't loaded on one, the list could go on. If you check the afore mentioned names win their fair share of Long Range matches. It isn't needed.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

The fact that some match winning people use some specific item is interesting but it doesn't 'prove' that a connection exists.

Another fact is a few degrees of temperature difference has more to do with the burn than a tenth grain or half kernel of any powder. Ditto unknowable variations in cases and primers. So beating our heads and spending wads of money so we can powder charges 'better' than .1 grain is meaningless on target.

The best way to deal with tiny charge or temp or case or primer variations as well as they need to be is to find the full charge range which can be tolerated without effect and load in the middle of it.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

I'm guessing that the 1, 2 and three at Snipershide cup might have been using sophisticated rifles that would benefit by ultra precise handloading techniques. BB

 

[Heman]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

No it is probably just that they are very good with there rifles. All the names I mentioned are very good shots, and I believe John Whidden loads his ammo on a Dillon 550 or 650. People get to caught up in equipment and the highest laser like BC bullet, etc. Still boils down to basic fundamentals. Case in point as I mentioned before in NRA LR the 1000yd iron sight record has been shot 3x by Kent Reeve twice using a .308 (2155 and 2156 palma bullets) and once with a 6.5x284 using 142gr SMKs. Friend of mine (Jeff Grahm) finished 2nd in the Leech Cup couple years back shooting a 30-338 with 190gr SMKs and he dropped his ammo before the match and some of the primers fell out and he pushed them back in. Yeah not ideal but again shows it is the shooter not the equipment.

 

[Lofty]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm guessing that the 1, 2 and three at Snipershide cup might have been using sophisticated rifles that would benefit by ultra precise handloading techniques. BB </div></div>

I think more importantly you'd find that people willing to spend that much money on such precise powder loading probably spend much more money on quality rifles, glass and most importantly range time behind the gun actually shooting and practicing.

They also know all the little tricks and the trips ups to avoid, they've been around it long enough.

Their winning is a factor of their dedication, the equipment they use is just a by product of that dedication.

You could grab a set of cheapo clubs from Walmart and tiger woods would beat 99% of all players in the world no matter what clubs they were swinging.

You chamber a round into a hot chamber and let it sit for 3 seconds and you'll get a bigger FPS spike increase than the difference between a powder charge from a Prometheus and one from a chargemaster........I would think.

 

[timelinex]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

I can't speak for others, BUT at the node I am loading for on my savage .1 grain does make a difference. If you look at the velocities at 44.8 gr, I was getting single digit extreme spreads(as low as 4,yes 4). As soon as you were .1 grain above or under, that opened up to like 20fps ES. by .4 above or under the ES would be 50. Now 20-30 is still considered pretty good, but I can't personally say from my own experience that factory rifles don't feel the difference of .1g grain.

Now, this doesnt actually mean much for accuracy. First of all, its always possible I'm not in that perfect insensitive node that everyone talks about. Second of all, You can't directly correlate velocity to accuracy/precision. As much as it would make sense that they are directly related, because of barrel harmonics that is not always the case.

The next food for thought is that weighing to an exact charge is assuming that pressure is derived directly from the powder weight. I am pretty sure that it has already been proven that powder volume is actually a more accurate gauge than weight.

 

[timelinex]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm guessing that the 1, 2 and three at Snipershide cup might have been using sophisticated rifles that would benefit by ultra precise handloading techniques. BB </div></div>

I think more importantly you'd find that people willing to spend that much money on such precise powder loading probably spend much more money on quality rifles, glass and most importantly range time behind the gun actually shooting and practicing.

They also know all the little tricks and the trips ups to avoid, they've been around it long enough.

Their winning is a factor of their dedication, the equipment they use is just a by product of that dedication.

You could grab a set of cheapo clubs from Walmart and tiger woods would beat 99% of all players in the world no matter what clubs they were swinging.

You chamber a round into a hot chamber and let it sit for 3 seconds and you'll get a bigger FPS spike increase than the difference between a powder charge from a Prometheus and one from a chargemaster........I would think. </div></div>

Now I know your not supposed to let the round sit in the chamber, but I thought it was on the measure of like a minute.

Is it really as quick as 3 seconds?? I don't think I have ever shot a group and fired each shot in under 3 seconds. Not because I can't, but because usually there is no reason to rush.

 

[Rprecision]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

Consistant is the name of the game, but how far, if it can be done to within .3 grains, your good

 

[vman]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">to win one must have a good gun
to win with a good gun one must have good ammo
to get good ammo balance beam technology is the most accurate
to get accurate, consistent, repeatable ammo in a timely manner

there is only one answer,get what the champions use.....


nuff said, i'll post the picture again if i must </div></div>

I have not seen a BOLTRIPPER prometheus showoff thread in years. Do it just for me buddy

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

Once you invest in ultra precise equipment capable of weighing to the exact same amount consistently, every time......

The next question is how to evaluate your cases by interior volume. Some people weigh the cases and assume it has something to do with case capacity. My point is obvious; slightly different interior volume is common, almost unavoidable. So, you have exact charges loaded into cases of differing internal volume, resulting in different pressures and velocities. How is this more accurate than (haphazardly) loading cases that might have a tolerance of + or - 1/70,000 of a grain, because they are thrown charges?

Yeah, yeah, it's the gun, or the man, or blind luck or Devine Guidance, or a Prometheus Gen2? You know what? It has been scientifically proven. The deciding factor is: MOJO.
BB

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tolnep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i will be reloading for a remington 5r 700 308 24 inch barrel.

</div></div>

If your shooting the factory barrel in this rifle, with factory trigger there's no point in spending many times the cost of the rifle for precision weighing equipment.

I shoot the same rifle and load using a Chargemaster. Have had groups as low as .191" at 100 yards (the planets were all aligned) and see regular 1/4 MOA groups at longer ranges. (all 5-Round groups)

If you want to double check your Chargemaster just get a good, quality, beam scale and a set of check weights.

I don't know what a Promethius sells for today but last I read there's a 3 year wait. One older unit was seen for sale at 2.5 times the cost of your rifle. I'm sure the new ones are more.

Good brass, well prepped, with good bullet selection (mine prefers 175-178 gr), and powder from a Chargemaster will give you great results with that rifle.

 

[tolnep]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadshot2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tolnep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i will be reloading for a remington 5r 700 308 24 inch barrel.

</div></div>

If your shooting the factory barrel in this rifle, with factory trigger there's no point in spending many times the cost of the rifle for precision weighing equipment.

I shoot the same rifle and load using a Chargemaster. Have had groups as low as .191" at 100 yards (the planets were all aligned) and see regular 1/4 MOA groups at longer ranges. (all 5-Round groups)

If you want to double check your Chargemaster just get a good, quality, beam scale and a set of check weights.

I don't know what a Promethius sells for today but last I read there's a 3 year wait. One older unit was seen for sale at 2.5 times the cost of your rifle. I'm sure the new ones are more.

Good brass, well prepped, with good bullet selection (mine prefers 175-178 gr), and powder from a Chargemaster will give you great results with that rifle. </div></div>

thanks for the answers. even if i was willing to pay the price for the prometheus, i'd probably be deceased before it arrived. and in all seriousness, looking at it and knowing in general what it is doing, i wonder if someone(s) with some engineering skills wont have a better and perhaps cheaper mousetrap out before that time.

my question was more towards what could i expect if i spent a lot of money on a sartorius scale capable of weighing <sarcasm>picograms</sarcasm>.

as to the rifle. it has a timney trigger. one of the first things i purchased was a borka torque set and i used it to install the base and rings and to torque the bottom metal.

thats as far as im going with this rifle. i plan to have a custom 260 built or buy a ax260 in the next twelve months once i get a firm grip on reloading and work more on my basic shooting skills.

 

[CoryT]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was getting single digit extreme spreads(as low as 4,yes 4). </div></div>

No, you were not.

There is no commercial chronograph that is accurate to 4 fps. In point of fact, the norm is .05 to 1 percent of the recorded value. Between the normal sample size of 5 or 10 rounds and the chrono error, anyone who really believes they have a single digit ES or SD is delusional. Anyone who thinks that 1 or 2 kernels of powder is making a measurable differance in the average POI is also delusional.

If you use Dan Newberry's OCW method for getting a load, .1 grain means pretty much nothing and most any scale will get you there if you pay attention.

 

[Graham]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tolnep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so after scanning the threads here there seems to be a group of folks that use very expensive weighing equipment. not just the prometheus which is both expensive and precise but also 'fast', but very precise digital scales costing over $1000 (sartorius types).and my question is, is the extreme accuracy worth the money?</div></div>In a word: No.

If you are going to control your powder charge to below a tenth of a grain you should start keeping track of barrel temperature, because that will have more effect on your velocity than the powder charge deviation.

Jacob loads .308 on a Dillon, and a 1050's powder measure throws accurately enough for bugholes at 100. Have you weighed powder charges in a batch of FGMM lately? Try it.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was getting single digit extreme spreads(as low as 4,yes 4). </div></div>

No, you were not.

There is no commercial chronograph that is accurate to 4 fps.

Anyone who thinks that 1 or 2 kernels of powder is making a measurable differance in the average POI is also delusional.

</div></div>

i agree i dont trust a chrono , but i believe 1 grain will make a POI difference at long range. I think if your shooting ELR you have to do everything you can to improve consistency.

 

[MZ5]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

Denton Bramwell has written up a nice little piece on standard deviation and random error, and how SDs do _not_ simply add. It is here:

The Perverse Nature of Standard Deviation

That paper's <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">really</span></span> worth a read if you're a person who ever watches SD or ES of your ammunition in an effort to determine whether different loading techniques or equipment are making a difference.

Bramwell has oft written that in the broadest terms, if you're not controlling your rifle's barrel temp to within roughly 3 degrees F, you shouldn't be worrying about 0.1 grain more or less of powder.

Then there's the pesky thing about how powder weight changes more than volume does, as things like its water content change. What you'll find is that you'll be closer to 'on' when you change powder lots (for example) if you measure your powder volumetrically instead of by weight or mass.

 

[Creature]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

Lyman DPS III or RCBS Chargemaster. I also use a Redding BR measure(kind with lever, no scale) with shorter powders.

The Prometheus is beyond my level I guess. And pay grade. As long as my charges are throwing within +/- .1 I'm happy. I think that there are more beneficial pieces of equipment for new long range shooters(wind/weather meter, range finder, range book, training, practice).

 

[Shoottothrill]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

I use a spotting scope and a straight razor to shave down the last kernel of powder so that my overall variation is less than .000001 Ha!

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

"...anyone who really believes they have a single digit ES or SD is delusional. Anyone who thinks that 1 or 2 kernels of powder is making a measurable differance in the average POI is also delusional."

Roger that.

78, you should use some 400 grit sandpaper on that last kernel of powder, that razor thing may get your trigger finger cut!

 

[timelinex]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was getting single digit extreme spreads(as low as 4,yes 4). </div></div>

No, you were not.

There is no commercial chronograph that is accurate to 4 fps. In point of fact, the norm is .05 to 1 percent of the recorded value. Between the normal sample size of 5 or 10 rounds and the chrono error, anyone who really believes they have a single digit ES or SD is delusional. Anyone who thinks that 1 or 2 kernels of powder is making a measurable differance in the average POI is also delusional.

If you use Dan Newberry's OCW method for getting a load, .1 grain means pretty much nothing and most any scale will get you there if you pay attention. </div></div>

I don't disagree with you.. To be fair, I said this was my results,which means not necessarily absolute truth... What I can tell you is what I actually saw, velocities going up with each .1 grain and the velocity ES was consistently extremely low when in the same .1 grain.when I tried the same thing with factory ammo, I had es's of 30+ (both fgmm and SW).

At the end of the day, I wouldn't be surprised if my beam scale isn't even accurate to the .1 ( I believe most magnetic dampened are to the .2 officially) . I can only speak of my actual observations... Which are worth about 2 Cents !

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

I'm going to prove all this precision is completely unnecessary just as soon as my membership renewal in the flat earth society is approved. Then, I'm going to kick ass and take names. Stand by. BB

 

[tolnep]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to prove all this precision is completely unnecessary just as soon as my membership renewal in the flat earth society is approved. Then, I'm going to kick ass and take names. Stand by. BB </div></div>

another person fooled.

its the timecube you need to look into for the real truth (if you can handle it)

http://www.timecube.com/

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

and now....for those that weigh the PRIMERS......

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

I admit, I am surprised that the "Cleansing Picture" that both teaches and eradicates the 'great unwashed' hasn't appeared yet. It HAS been quite some time....


,,,,,
Oh for shit's sakes. Just when I hit "enter", there it is. All I was doing was reading this thread.

Now all is well with the world. Or is it?

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

The anticipation, you can cut it with a knife.
"Pretty please, with sugar on it"/Wolfman

 

[tolnep]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

so what is that? 12,000$ worth prometheus machines? is there nothing better or more commercial for that kind of money?

looking at those things, the first thing that came into my mind was they look delicate....

 

[bward]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

Yes they are the best that money can buy. I don't think they are delicate at all.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Beg to differ. Bryan Litz, John Whidden, Kent Reeve, Nancy Thompkins, Sherri and Mechelle's ammo aren't loaded on one, the list could go on. If you check the afore mentioned names win their fair share of Long Range matches. It isn't needed. </div></div>

There ammo may not be loaded using a Prometheus, but they ain't using a Lee PPM either.

***Added Kent uses a Gen2, and a couple others use Gundersons, which the master informed me are ABOUT Gen1 speed and accuracy.

 

[doc76251]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

Several "kernels" of wisdom in this thread

.

1. Chrono's are not single digit accurate. CED touts theirs (or did) at being .005% accurate. .005 X 2700fps = 13.5 fps so if your measurements are less than 13.5 ES you are less than the tolerance and therefor nice, but questionable.

2. Consistency at the bench = Consistency on paper.

3. Speed is disproportional to accuracy.

4. Case fill is at least as important as powder choice. A full case or even a slight crush on a freshly dropped powder charge will net you better ES than air under the boolet.

5. OCW and OBT loading concepts and application will negate not only small variances in powder weight but also temperature.

6. Leaving a round chambered in a hot gun for any appreciable length of time WILL change your POI and you can never guess correctly how much with any reliability.

7. A spoon and a beam scale will give you equally as accurate results in weight as a multi $$$$ sooper whiz bang machine if the eyeball in front of the scale is willing to take the time to get each measurement the same (See note 2).

and FINALLY:

SHOOTER, Platform and ammo form the triad. The weakest link will determine the final accuracy output of the system.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

No, not at all. The point of load development is to find a charge weight that delivers an accuracy node.

By definition, such a node allows less precise charges to deliver a commonly high degree of accuracy.

All weighing to a more precise standard accomplishes is to make more work and anxiety for the handloader where none is really called for.

Greg

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

There it is; ol' Greg has summed it up nicely.
That, and MOJO.
BB

 

[YAOG]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tolnep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i will be reloading for a remington 5r 700 308 24 inch barrel.

im new to reloading. but my work demands very complex and precise attention to detail so im used to complex operations taken with great care.

current reloading equipment consists of forster co-ax, redding competition die set, wilson micromenter case trimmer, bullet ogive comparator, headspace measurement gauge, fairly high end digital micrometer, rcbs chargemaster 1500 (just the scale) rcbs powder thrower to underthrow the starting powder charge. and a double beam pharmacy scale i've had for a number of years (obtained from a family owned drugstore years ago).

so after scanning the threads here there seems to be a group of folks that use very expensive weighing equipment. not just the prometheus which is both expensive and precise but also 'fast', but very precise digital scales costing over $1000 (sartorius types).

and my question is, is the extreme accuracy worth the money? for non benchrest shooters anyway. BTW, the prometheus is nice but at 3000 and a wait that one not something i would consider.

note that the pharmacy scale, while precise up to a point and a great way to compare against the chargemaster, is no where near the accuracy of the current lab units some folks are using.

as an aside, after doing 100 cases with the wilson hand cranked micrometer trimmer, which does a great job and then coming back to chamfer, my next big purchase is going to be a giraud.. </div></div>

I'm waiting for a Kilo-51 from Tac-Ops. So in the mean time I bought an almost unused Remington 5R in an AICS chassis. I installed Seekins 20MOA base with matching rings for my Premier Heritage 5-25 w/Gen2XR reticle and added a Huber Concepts 2-stage trigger set to 2lb. This rig is GTG to 1,000 yards using handloaded 168g A-Max bullets chrono'd at 2,730fps.

Buy tools that make your reloading easier. I used to use a 1010 scale and scale every charge by hand. I loaded my long range bolt gun ammo this way for 35 years. That way took too long. Last year I bought a Hornady Lock 'n Load Autocharger and was paranoid about the reliability of the digital dispenser so I scaled each charge on the 1010 and found that the Autocharger was almost always dead on and off no more than 0.1 grain which agrees with the Autocharger. I stopped scaling every charge and just went with it. I can reliably dial to 800 yards and reliably get hits on 0.1 mil targets.

HTH!

 

[memilanuk]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

A couple years back, I got an opportunity to shoot some loads that were essentially identical in terms of components, with the only real difference being one batch used charges dispensed by a Chargemaster 1500, and the other used charges weighed out on a good quality milligram lab scale.

There was a small, but noticeable, difference in the vertical dispersion between the two as plotted on against a Long Range F-Class target (LR-FC). Small enough that for other kinds of shooting, or even if I'd shot them somewhat separated like normal in competition, I would have just written off the difference to various environmental conditions, position behind the gun, etc. but in this instance, they were literally fired back to back at a normal pace.

I do generally use the OCW method for load development, so that argument kinda goes out the door. It makes loads less sensitive to minor variations, not totally immune.

FWIW, I'm kind of at a cross-road here myself. Using an Omega two-speed trickler, Lee Perfect powder measure, and a Sartorius GD-503 scale is *noticeably* faster than even a 'tuned' Chargemaster - like damn near twice as fast, with considerably better accuracy. If I were to accept somewhat 'looser' tolerances on charge weights, for mid-range matches or just situations where I don't need the n-th degree of precision... it'd be even faster.

It's just not automated like the Chargemaster, or the Prometheus (as I understand it).

Whether that is worth whatever the going price is today for a Prometheus ($3K?, essentially triple what I have in my setup) is a highly personal decision.

I just wish there was some kind of middle ground. In theory it'd be kinda cool to take a scale like the GD-503 that has a data port, and something like the Omega trickler and stick something like an Arduino board in between to use the input from the scale to drive a servo to actuate the powder measure and then control the trickler as needed...

 

[YAOG]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple years back, I got an opportunity to shoot some loads that were essentially identical in terms of components, with the only real difference being one batch used charges dispensed by a Chargemaster 1500, and the other used charges weighed out on a good quality milligram lab scale.

There was a small, but noticeable, difference in the vertical dispersion between the two as plotted on against a Long Range F-Class target (LR-FC). Small enough that for other kinds of shooting, or even if I'd shot them somewhat separated like normal in competition, I would have just written off the difference to various environmental conditions, position behind the gun, etc. but in this instance, they were literally fired back to back at a normal pace.

I do generally use the OCW method for load development, so that argument kinda goes out the door. It makes loads less sensitive to minor variations, not totally immune.

FWIW, I'm kind of at a cross-road here myself. Using an Omega two-speed trickler, Lee Perfect powder measure, and a Sartorius GD-503 scale is *noticeably* faster than even a 'tuned' Chargemaster - like damn near twice as fast, with considerably better accuracy. If I were to accept somewhat 'looser' tolerances on charge weights, for mid-range matches or just situations where I don't need the n-th degree of precision... it'd be even faster.

It's just not automated like the Chargemaster, or the Prometheus (as I understand it).

Whether that is worth whatever the going price is today for a Prometheus ($3K?, essentially triple what I have in my setup) is a highly personal decision.

I just wish there was some kind of middle ground. In theory it'd be kinda cool to take a scale like the GD-503 that has a data port, and something like the Omega trickler and stick something like an Arduino board in between to use the input from the scale to drive a servo to actuate the powder measure and then control the trickler as needed... </div></div>

I can build that exact rig for you. Would you be willing to pay double retail for the parts for a completed system? And there lays the problem. It won't save you any money but it would be pretty neat.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

I was mostly just thinking out loud... I've got the various bits... just need to dust off the Arduino book and start figuring it out (in my spare time). I'm probably not ever going to make it for anyone else, though, which is kind of what I was hinting at.

 

[JByrd]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, not at all. The point of load development is to find a charge weight that delivers an accuracy node.

By definition, such a node allows less precise charges to deliver a commonly high degree of accuracy.

All weighing to a more precise standard accomplishes is to make more work and anxiety for the handloader where none is really called for.

Greg </div></div>

This is what i have noticed in my testing. When your close to the perfect load it still feels like you have to drive the gun to make it shoot.when you have the perfect load for the gun..... you have to try to make it not shoot well. I dont trust or own a chrono. I use 100 yd zero and drop to my 966 yd target to get my speed. And i keep tweaking my load till i drive the vertical @966 down to my standard. In the words of a very smart man. The bullet does not lie!!!! The bullet can not lie!!!

The chargemaster has delivered some great results. Alot of times when we dont get the results we want we naturally start questioning our equipment and many times we just need to keep systematically working our load development.im really ocd about my load development ,i wanna know if i stub my toe at a match its on me,not a flyer. There are some extremely smart people on here that have helped me alot and im def still learning myself.

I like what lofty said above as well. Nail on the head!

 

[JByrd]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

And for the record, if i was rich i might have a prometheus "for the speed aspect". Its a superb piece of equipment just outa my price range for return on investment.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

Start saving now, wait two months and put your order in, keep saving, when it's ready you'll have the money, if you don't the next person in line gets it, for the record I am not rich, I have a blue collar job fixing 737's, I have a full time mommy to my kid, and drive a car with 255k on it with no plans on replacing it.

 

[JByrd]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

Barrels bullets powder and brass , these are the things i save for now.

 

[steve123]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

As you can see by the many responses there are a lot of different variables/influences happening all at the same time to realize the affect of less than a 10th of a grain of powder and that's even before the shot is fired.

If you have the money sure it would be nice to have a Prometheus. Or I could see if time is a huge issue then it would be worth the cost. Or maybe it just tickles ones fancy, heck buy one and enjoy. Otherwise a super accurate super fast gizmo won't net any over the old way.

Take the electronic scales that measure substantially less than a 10th of a grain. What for? That would drive me nuts,LOL. In the past I've had problems with 2 different electronic scales. Having to recalibrate while still loading and watching them vacillate back and forth between a 10th wasn't for me. Both of them broke too, so they were a waist of my money to me.

All I need is to be able to see what the difference is between one and two granules of a medium burning rate powder. A good beam scale will do this.

If the powder is really fine grained I'm usually throwing the charge directly into the case anyway, like with 223 plinking ammo. It's within a couple 10th's which is OK with me for the application.

I use a powder measure to get within 2-3 10th's which goes to the balance beam, then pinch(more like a grab)what feels like the correct amount of powder from a separate container to put into the pan that's on the scale. More often than not I'm within 3-5 granules. "The only way I can put it is after a while I get the feel of what amount to grab". The word instinctive comes to mind. One more grab and drop of a few granules by rubbing my fingers together and that's it. Takes maybe 10 seconds each case if I don't get a few granules too much in. So I am able to measure down to the granule on normal sized extruded powders that we'd use for tactical matches. Try this method yourself. You'll see it works fast once you've done it a few times.

I tried a few powder tricklers in the past (Manual and electronic) and would end up dropping 2-3 extra granules by accident causing me to have to dig em out of the pan which is time consuming and frustrating. I can do a better and faster job like I described above.

I charged and seated bullets on 171 cases yesterday in what seemed like an hour. No I didn't time it.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

I mentioned previously, and I don't know how great a concern it be, but, for the sake of argument, let us say there is some value in ultra precise powder weighing. Never mind that the ammunition manufacturers use a version of thrown charges and their product does quite well on paper.

Let's say it is possible and practical to measure the internal capacity of every case and custom load that case to an exact computer controlled pressure, expecting uniform velocity and accuracy. Within the limitations of the shooter and his barrel, of course.

But anyway, what about the variations in case capacity, from case to case? I assume that difference is greater than the weight of the propellent measured on a Prometheus, to a gnat's ass? Is the argument "for"...... that this machine has eliminated one variable; not that absolute perfection has been achieved?

Maybe it's just one brick in the wall? BB

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

I've got the same Basic stuff, you have, for my 5R. I use an RCBS "plain old Beam scale", and Weigh each load. I shoot 1/2 to 3/4 in. holes, at 100, all day long. Some holes are smaller.44.7 Varget, behind a 168 BTHP, at 2.96, Col.It's "almost gotten boring"! my Bud, and I have moved to shooting the Letters, on the targets, for fun. Hit the R, he says, and I hit the R. Hit that fly? Dead Fly! No FANCY Scale for me! I'm doin fine!Just my thoughts.Next day, {with out the influence of 3 beers} I'm OK, at 100, but I suck, past 300. The load's fine. I just can't read wind.

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

LISTEN to Greg! This man knows! I agree, after driving myself nuts, for months. You have a "little give", with the powder charge. I go to hundredths, on my beam scale, with a trickler. and weigh each load. Other factors are more important.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, not at all. The point of load development is to find a charge weight that delivers an accuracy node.

By definition, such a node allows less precise charges to deliver a commonly high degree of accuracy.

All weighing to a more precise standard accomplishes is to make more work and anxiety for the handloader where none is really called for.

Greg </div></div>

 

[1066]

Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I just wish there was some kind of middle ground. In theory it'd be kinda cool to take a scale like the GD-503 that has a data port, and something like the Omega trickler and stick something like an Arduino board in between to use the input from the scale to drive a servo to actuate the powder measure and then control the trickler as needed...</div></div>

I guess you mean something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eF-jL2kJRUc

or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dnVOoGd1bDU
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6PEGzo63Us&feature=player_detailpage