Factory Ammo for PRS - SD & ES Considered

[1911Shootist]

1. What factory cartridge and ammo have you seen the most consistency out of?

2. At what SD / ES do you start losing confidence in your ammo of choice?

Prioritizing PRS performance - low recoil, ability to spot hits/misses, good BC. Barrel life isn't as much of a concern. Would be nice to keep it under $2/round. I've seen some excellent numbers and results out of 6.5C 147ELDM, but hoping to minimize recoil and keep most of the consistency.

(Let's keep reloading out of this. I know the merits of reloading, I've reloaded before, I would prefer not to.)

 

[Kadams1563]

If I was shooting factory I would choose 6.5 creed.

6.5 140 eld for extended ranges.
6.5 140 Hornady black for shorter ranges.

I have had good performance from both of these.

For PRS you can get away with much larger SD’s and ES’s then people want to admit.

 

[1911Shootist]

If I was shooting factory I would choose 6.5 creed.

6.5 140 eld for extended ranges.
6.5 140 Hornady black for shorter ranges.

I have had good performance from both of these.

For PRS you can get away with much larger SD’s and ES’s then people want to admit.

Got any numbers?

 

[Kadams1563]

Got any numbers?

I’ll have to dig through my notes but I only shot 400 rounds of 140 eld match then went to reloading.

I have shot several hundred Hornady black when I was lazy and didn’t want to reload.

Have shot both to 1000 yards easily.

 

[Sheldon N]

2. At what SD / ES do you start losing confidence in your ammo of choice?

I might think less about SD/ES and more about downrange performance. If it can hold a vertical waterline of around 6" tall at 1k yards it would be more than good enough.

Alternatively, have you given thought to custom ammo? One of the guys local here in the northwest (Bootleg Bullets) is loading precision ammo for people that's super high quality, precision powder charges on an FX120, etc. He's even loading the ammo for Jake Vibbert's PRS season this year.

If you supplied components and/or sold once fired brass after the fact you could probably get pretty close to your $2/round number, plus you could shoot whatever PRS cartridge you wanted like Dasher or BRA or GT, etc.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Exactly. SD/ES is only one component. The other is BC consistency, with some bullets being much better than others.

The difference between a 10-15 SD and a 4-5 SD will be lost points over a match. There are so many variables that come into play, and you rarely get a perfect shot. The targets are getting smaller every year and the time's are going down, giving you less time to build and break a perfect shot.

I have shot both factory and reloads in matches. Hornady Black 140's, Norma/Prime 130, Norma Golden Target 143, Berger 130 AR hybrid and 144 hybrids all in factory loads.

Hornady is some of the last factory ammo I would shoot. The Norma 143 when you could get it for $22 a box, was a steal. I am half way through about 4000 rounds of it, and use it for training or when I dont feel like reloading for matches. The Berger ammo was really good, uses better bullets but the SD was not as good as I would have liked. It was around 12-15, same as the Norma. The real benefit with the Berger ammo is the better bullets, and use of Lapua brass that can either be sold or reloaded down the road. Going from Hornady Black to Berger factory my groups cut in half and downrange was getting much more consistent hits. I have also heard good things about the Sig Ammo shooting SMK's but never seen it in stock in quantities enough to shoot a few matches.

If you invest in good reloading equipment and have the time, you can make exceptional (2-4SD ammo) using the best components for less than $1 per shot. Its up to you if its worth it. Break even will take a long time, but you also end up with some pretty amazing ammo.

The other big thing is when you are still learning, eliminating variables that hinder your progress is huge in getting better. Not fighting gear or ammo issues lets you focus on other things and you know when you miss its not the equipment. Confidence is huge in this game.

Another option would be to shoot 6 arc factory ammo. Will get you down to the 6mm class bullets to reduce recoil. They are cheaper and only going to get more popular as DOD adopts this round and starts deploying it. If you have a good custom action all you need is a new bolt/mags/barrel. Could then sell the brass to offset the cost.

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[1911Shootist]

I might think less about SD/ES and more about downrange performance. If it can hold a vertical waterline of around 6" tall at 1k yards it would be more than good enough.

Alternatively, have you given thought to custom ammo? One of the guys local here in the northwest (Bootleg Bullets) is loading precision ammo for people that's super high quality, precision powder charges on an FX120, etc. He's even loading the ammo for Jake Vibbert's PRS season this year.

If you supplied components and/or sold once fired brass after the fact you could probably get pretty close to your $2/round number, plus you could shoot whatever PRS cartridge you wanted like Dasher or BRA or GT, etc.

SD/ES minimization = downrange performance improvement when you can’t test it (e.g. I only have 400 yards available) and eliminates noisy data due to environmentals and technique, which I’d think would be a far greater source of noise than BC variance.

I haven’t really looked into boutique independently manufactured stuff - not sure who I can trust and how long they’ll be around.

 

[Kadams1563]

Says not to mention reloading everyone starts saying to reload.

Seriously go grab any of the “match” grade 6.5 ammo and start shooting matches. The ammo won’t be what’s holding you back.

 

[1911Shootist]

Says not to mention reloading everyone starts saying to reload.

Seriously go grab any of the “match” grade 6.5 ammo and start shooting matches. The ammo won’t be what’s holding you back.

Yep, this is straying from the topic a bit.

Ammo most certainly can leave points on the table. No reason to make more recoil than needed.

 

[58blackflag]

For 5.56 ammo I recently tested the following:
18” Seekins .223 Wylde with TBAC 30P-1 suppressor.
Speeds are taken from 10rd strings except last group, see below.
IMI 77gr
Avg 2726
ES 31.4

AAC 77gr non-Sierra
Avg 2635
Es 21.8

Black Hills 77gr OTM
Avg 2682
ES 17.1

Black Hills 77 TMK
Avg 2715
ES 11.2

Additional 20rd of Black Hills 77 TMK shot about 1rd/sec
Total 30rd string (gun got pretty hot)
Avg 2714
ES 13.4
The best grouping was the Black Hills 77 OTM but this is a new gun and I’m still getting comfortable with it. I went ahead and ordered 500rds of the BH 77 TMK because it seems to be extremely consistent, heat insensitive, and good velocity. The tipped bullets should also be more consistent BC-wise.


 

[Mr. F]

1. What factory cartridge and ammo have you seen the most consistency out of?

2. At what SD / ES do you start losing confidence in your ammo of choice?

Prioritizing PRS performance - low recoil, ability to spot hits/misses, good BC. Barrel life isn't as much of a concern. Would be nice to keep it under $2/round. I've seen some excellent numbers and results out of 6.5C 147ELDM, but hoping to minimize recoil and keep most of the consistency.

(Let's keep reloading out of this. I know the merits of reloading, I've reloaded before, I would prefer not to.)

1) Berger 130 Hybrids (SDs 10-12) followed by Hornady 140/147 ELDs (SDs anywhere from 10-20) . Over the last 2-3 years I've ran about 1k of the Berger Factory double that for the ELDs.

2) Above 20 FPS +- is where id start not loving it for any shooting format where you are shooting something small whether is PRS or something else.
Run the numbers on your ballistics solver and you'll see a 20+- yields a .1-.2mil dope change at 600-700yds consistent to around 1000yds assuming you can get the bullet going around 2700fps at the muzzle. In practice unless you are shooting ELR you start getting fucked by the spread at around 30+-.

I would run a 28"-30" and make your final decision based on a waterline target. Not the chrono sample.

As far as the 147 (either handloaded or factory) some people say its great, i think is garbage. If you have to shoot that weight class, just buy the Berger 144 LRHT

 

[Sheldon N]

SD/ES minimization = downrange performance improvement when you can’t test it (e.g. I only have 400 yards available) and eliminates noisy data due to environmentals and technique, which I’d think would be a far greater source of noise than BC variance.

I haven’t really looked into boutique independently manufactured stuff - not sure who I can trust and how long they’ll be around.

I get the range limitation and not being able to test, that makes sense. I think my point is that just because something is an SD of 2 doesn't mean it's going to print the smallest waterline, so I don't really chase SD numbers. If it's single digit that's good enough. Shooting BR cases sorta makes it easy though, everything has a good SD and shoots small groups at distance.

Look up Matt with Bootleg Bullet Company on Facebook or on his website (yes his website is pretty lame), I've known him for years and can vouch for him. Shoots matches a bunch so understands PRS competitors needs, has all the necessary FFL licensing, has all the latest equipment for precision loading and has been doing it for quite a while. He's loading ammo for some of the top shooters in the NW right now.

 

[The4GunGuy]

1. What factory cartridge and ammo have you seen the most consistency out of?

2. At what SD / ES do you start losing confidence in your ammo of choice?

Prioritizing PRS performance - low recoil, ability to spot hits/misses, good BC. Barrel life isn't as much of a concern. Would be nice to keep it under $2/round. I've seen some excellent numbers and results out of 6.5C 147ELDM, but hoping to minimize recoil and keep most of the consistency.

(Let's keep reloading out of this. I know the merits of reloading, I've reloaded before, I would prefer not to.)

I did a video on this topic using my 6.5 Creedmoor hand loads against a number of factory OTS ammo...Results were interesting:

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The BC for alot of those factory offerings are wrong BTW. You need to get the true one from AB or just run the CDM.

 

[Baron23]

My friend @GBMaryland has a rifle that loves the 147 ELD-M. He is shooting Hornady's TAP ammo in the 147 and he has found SDs to be very good and far superior (consistent really) to the regular ELD-M

Perhaps he will see this and provide a number but I believe it was single digit.

 

[smoothy8500]

you can get away with much larger SD’s and ES’s then people want to admit.

think less about SD/ES and more about downrange performance.

SD/ES is only one component.

unless you are shooting ELR

so I don't really chase SD numbers.

@1911Shootist Are we seeing a pattern here?

At 400 yards you will get a reasonable idea of downrange performance.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Look for the Berger factory, its much better than the Hornady, bullets are better and the lapua brass is a plus.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Just regarding SD and ES and how it relates to PRS.

A 109 Berger running 2900fps with a 50es (assuming equal distance from average so, 2875-2925fps)

At 600yds = 3.3 mil - 3.2 mil

At 1000yds = 8.0mi - 7.6 mil


That's about 1.5" @ 600 and about 9" @ 1000 if you want to visualize it that way. If the match is mostly 600 and in, as you can see....fairly negligible. If its further and the targets are small, then it becomes and issue.

But for most any PRS match, SD/ES won't equate to much unless you're competing for the top spot and a single miss at distance due to velocity matters.

 

[1911Shootist]

@1911Shootist Are we seeing a pattern here?

At 400 yards you will get a reasonable idea of downrange performance.

Yes, seeing a pattern of a lack of numbers

I get it, some (most?) folks don't track the data or haven't come across a situation where they have bad stats but good groups and have to make a call on whether to continue with that round or not, so there's a good bit of conjecture and anecdotes - like all gun related discussions it seems.

 

[Mr. F]

Yes, seeing a pattern of a lack of numbers

I get it, some (most?) folks don't track the data or haven't come across a situation where they have bad stats but good groups and have to make a call on whether to continue with that round or not, so there's a good bit of conjecture and anecdotes - like all gun related discussions it seems.

As far as the 2 questions i dont see anything missing from the answers. What kind of specific data you needed?

If i have a .3 moa group load with an SD of 10 and a .6 load with a SD of 1.5, shooting a positional format im grabbing the .3 load with the higher SD because everything is relatively close. Probably there is not that much info out there because factory ammo is expected to be in the order of SDs posted above.

"Bad stats" and great groups are a normal thing is up to you to decide how "bad" is bad. With factory ammo unless you buy a large same lot amount, a press and a seating die you cant control much. All you can do is seat back in .003-.005 increments and try to hit the spot for your barrel. Thats seating depth, cant do anything about charge, neck tension, ect.

Lastly chronos have a tolerance, Its low but its there. Assume a tolerance of half a percent, not 1%, half.
For a measurement in the order of 2700 fps thats, (.005) (2700fps) = +- 13.5fps, thats why a watermarked target at 400-600 is better data.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

To add on the above, keep in mind......if you shoot 10 shots over your chrono and get an 8sd....

You have the exact same chance of having a 33es and an 88es for that lot of ammo in the long run. And anywhere in between.



So, it gets pretty murky when trying to come up with an "acceptable" sd/es.

 

[Rob01]

1. What factory cartridge and ammo have you seen the most consistency out of?

2. At what SD / ES do you start losing confidence in your ammo of choice?

Prioritizing PRS performance - low recoil, ability to spot hits/misses, good BC. Barrel life isn't as much of a concern. Would be nice to keep it under $2/round. I've seen some excellent numbers and results out of 6.5C 147ELDM, but hoping to minimize recoil and keep most of the consistency.

(Let's keep reloading out of this. I know the merits of reloading, I've reloaded before, I would prefer not to.)

Have shot a lot of Hornady ammo in matches over the past couple decades and the numbers won’t hold you back. SDs will be different lot to lot but most of the 6 and 6.5 Creedmoor I have shot have been in the 12-15fps for SD. That won’t hold you back. That’s not over 5-10 rounds either but usually 30-40 with leaving my chrono attached.

If you don’t worry about barrel life get a 6 Creed and if you do then a 6.5. 6mm ARC or 6 GT will be a couple more choices also.

Something else to look into if you plan to only shoot factory ammo is a tuner. I use an ATS tuner and it helps bringing in group size. Just something else to think about.