factory vs custom

#51
Re: factory vs custom

If I dont get that grouping everytime, its because of me and not the gun. The TRG was consistent enough to place third in my last long range match (800-1000 yards)

Its easy to see what my TRG is capable of since I posted 5 targets on that thread. Of the targets I posted, I had 68 hits out of 75 possible for a 90.6 percent hit rate. Jamie, please post 5 of your best 15 dot targets so we can compare.

My TRG 22 has a 5.5-22 Nightforce NXS with a Zero stop, and the TRG 42 has a Nightforce 8-32X56 NXS.

300Sniper Your last line may be true, but I dont know what S.I.T was thinking. I am just going with the two definitive groups that seem that seem to dominate the board.

Group 1... Order gun, wait 6+ weeks, and post picture of it when it arrives.

Group 2 Buy gun, walk out of store with it, and start shooting.

I fit in group 2
smile.gif








 
#52
Re: factory vs custom

If the factory rifles are shooting the same as your customs go for the factory and save the $$$$. I also just shoot factory match grade ammo.

I am thinking my next rifle after I get the rest of my ARs is going to be a custom 300 win mag.
 
#54
Re: factory vs custom

Thanks Bee.
Everyone tells me I need to start loading....but it seems like it is very time consuming and could be frustrating working up a good load. If I started loading and could not at least match the factory ammo...I would be bummed.

I saw your 15 shot targets...nice shooting. I have yet to take the challenge....but will give it a shot soon. I need to take my TRG out so maybe I will try it with that.

I still love showing off the great groups the $600 Tikka's give me....I am buying another one (T3 Lite) in .243 in the next few weeks.
I plan on cutting the barrel down to 18" just to make it handier for packing.

Take care,Stan
 
#55
Re: factory vs custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Super Bee 950</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I dont get that grouping everytime, its because of me and not the gun. The TRG was consistent enough to place third in my last long range match (800-1000 yards)

Its easy to see what my TRG is capable of since I posted 5 targets on that thread. Of the targets I posted, I had 68 hits out of 75 possible for a 90.6 percent hit rate. Jamie, please post 5 of your best 15 dot targets so we can compare.

My TRG 22 has a 5.5-22 Nightforce NXS with a Zero stop, and the TRG 42 has a Nightforce 8-32X56 NXS.

300Sniper Your last line may be true, but I dont know what S.I.T was thinking. I am just going with the two definitive groups that seem that seem to dominate the board.

Group 1... Order gun, wait 6+ weeks, and post picture of it when it arrives.

Group 2 Buy gun, walk out of store with it, and start shooting.

I fit in group 2
smile.gif



</div></div>

LOL...I guess you can call a TRG22 a box stock gun like you can call a Porsche 911 a factory car.

You forgot group 3.

Order a custom rig the way YOU want it. Wait. And shoot.

Not everyone orders a custom rig just to take pics of them. I am sure a lot of guys at the bash and hide cup shoot customs. =)
 
#56
Re: factory vs custom

Super Bee


I will when it thaws : ) but 3rd place makes you the 2nd looser. Curiouse, but if I was to bet, 1rst and 2nd place were probably customs.

Again, I don't think your TRG qualifies for a factory gun in most peoples book and for that kind of money, if you would have built a custom, maybe you would have taken first. I have learned in most shoots there are only about 15% in contention to win (Competitors), the rest are just participants. In long range, little things matter, a couple points makes the differance between 1rst and 3rd. So running the best equipment you can afford (a fine tuned custom)can make that difference.

JamieD





P.S. Super Bee - if those were your five best 15 dot targets - how many did you have to shoot to get those 5?
 
#57
Re: factory vs custom

This is an interesting post and one I’ve been on both sides of the fence a few time. My first custom rifle was my LH M40A3 by TBA. Talk about scary accurate, nothing in my factory arsenal came close. Next I went with GAP M40A5 custom rig and then A GAP AR-15. Again, both scary accurate and each rifle was dependable.

Then Two Shoes (Terry) had to go a ruin everything for me. He sold me his new factory everything DPMS 24” bull panther AR-10 for $900.00. Right out of the box it out shot all of my custom rifles. I believe my first group was in the low .4’s with BH’s 175 gr match ammo. The problem was (lack of problem) it did group after group after group. Not that my TBA or GAP’s didn’t shoot as they did, the problem was I was more consistent with the DPMS. My son said, "honestly dad what do you need your custom rifles for"? Fair question and one I thought about on my first ground hog hunt with all three rifles. Actually the GAP and TBA never fired one round on the trip.

Out in the field on ground hog or PD hunts, it’s just plain lethal After my first ground hog hunt I had a JP single stage trigger installed and the barrel deep fluted to take off some weight. Two+ thousand rounds later, it’s still a tac driver. No performance issues of any kind.

So I sold all my custom rifles with no regrets. My factory DPMS out shot and out preformed them all.

I know Mike, George, Terry and Randy as well as a host of other top builders build out of this world rifles and they all shoot. I see a lot of folks on this board jump in feet first and order the rifle of their dreams and they do this for their own reasons and shooting requirements. I also see a lot of these top builders rifles for sale and again the seller has their own reasons.

My needs have changed, my accuracy requirements haven’t. I just ordered my first LH Tikka T3 SS lite in .243 win. If it shoots under an inch, is reliable and with no quality issues, it will have met my needs and requirements for under $600.00
 
#59
Re: factory vs custom

Where is the link for the 15 shot 1/2" dot challenge. I have a factory rem 700 pss in 243 that might be up to it. I am getting geared up for my first semi custom rifle. I am going to have RWS gunsmithing re barrel one of my 700 actions or just buy a new trued up custom barreled action from him complete. I cant decide on the cal yet. I am really thinking about the 6.5 creedmoore. This has been a good read. I am a very acomp0lished shotgun sporting clays shooter, and i know the value of custom firearms. The bottom line no matter how you look at it is. A custom or semi custom will be a better firearm in all respects. Hands down!! There is no possible way you can contest it. If the work is done right. Maybe you dont need a custom, and that is fine, but a custom is still better in every way!! Just the way i see it. I made the illinois all state sporting clays team mostly because of skill, but having a shotgun that was custom fit to my body sure didnt hurt!!! And man oh man are those triggers nice! Lee
 
#62
Re: factory vs custom

Aw superbee, I'm just bustin your stones a little. It's just, that is way out of my class of factory guns when I started out. Glad she shoots good for you. It's nice to get a factory stick that hums, got a few myself. But don't discount the above advice. Money can only buy so many points. Exceptional skills and gear make champions.

JamieD
 
#63
Re: factory vs custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you defining a factory rifle by price?</div></div>

That certainly seems to have been the implication by some.
 
#64
Re: factory vs custom

The first 4 targets I posted were just that.... the first 4. After I shot 15/15 I stopped posting because I met my goal. The target I shot with the 300 Mag was, and still is the only 15 dot drill I have done with the TRG 42. Hate to burst your bubble, but thats the truth.

I am giving you the option of posting your best 5 because I think you might need all the help you can get
smile.gif


 
#65
Re: factory vs custom

Stan,

No not by price.

What's considered "mass produced".

GAP has a Crusader that is a standard build that is produced in impressive numbers. Do you consider that a factory rifle due to the number that George and crew puts out?

I see more GAPs on the line than AIs or TRGs if you are just talking numbers.


Superbee were those targets shot from the bench indoors like your kids target?

Hate to burst your bubble but I rarely shoot my rig at 100yards. Bring it out past 600 and we'll talk.
 
#66
Re: factory vs custom

SuperBee,

I'm not always on my game and in the top 15%, but when I am you better be on yours to beat me
smile.gif
I have been really tied up with filming but this year coming up, I am concentrating on competing and hopefully winning. Would like to make some of the big shoots in 09. We'll see!

JamieD

I still say it's a custom class rifle
smile.gif

 
#67
Re: factory vs custom

Hey Vu.
Any rifle....or car,pistol,etc....that you can go into a avg. gun shop and buy off the shelf I would say is a mass produced item.

As far as GAP being a mass produced rifle I would have to say I don't think they sell #'s like Sako or AI does world wide. And I still think when you call to order a Crusader they give you a list of options and build YOUR rifle then. I did not know they stocked rifles you could buy off the shelf.

This whole thread seems to have become a pissing match....so I go back to what S.I.T asked in his first post. And I think he needs to tell us WHAT he is looking for. Just accuracy or a actual "work" gun.

Everyone has his or her own needs and use for their own rifle....what is right for me may not be right for you.

Take care,Stan
 
#68
Re: factory vs custom

Stan,

No pissing contest here. Just a few guys that have different opinions.

Superbee was braggin about a factory gun shooting tight but it turns out to be an TRG..not exactly in every gun shop around town type of rig.

An AI which cost 5K + just for the rifle isn't exactly what I call a factory rig. Might as well call an AMG E55 from Benz a bone stock sedan.

SIT ask factory or custom...I say if you have the funds and want..build a rig to YOUR specs.

Vu
 
#70
Re: factory vs custom

Vu,
I agree, yes a TRG is a factory made gun. But custom class by nature. These are precision made pieces of gear. Enter it in some local shoots here that have factory and custom class comps and that gun will go in custom for sure right along with 40x's, coopers and so on.

Stan, no pissing match here either. For (factory VS. custom). Point is- if the buyer is going to spend that kind of money for a precision made piece of equipment, than take a serious look at going custom. Made to fit and made to order.

JamieD
 
#72
Re: factory vs custom

So why don't you just buy a Remington Mil-Spec 5R and just quit worrying about it? The accuracy difference is not enough to worry about. If it is for you then maybe you should be looking at benchrest rifles. Otherwise it's mainly ergonomic and cosmetic features plus a small gain in consistent accuracy.
 
#73
Re: factory vs custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911.it</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So why don't you just buy a Remington Mil-Spec 5R and just quit worrying about it? The accuracy difference is not enough to worry about. If it is for you then maybe you should be looking at benchrest rifles. Otherwise it's mainly ergonomic and cosmetic features plus a small gain in consistent accuracy. </div></div>

Based on what? Not ALL 5Rs are 1/2MOA rifles. Just because you get lucky with one or two 1/2MOA groups does not mean you have a 1/2MOA rifle. I have seen some shoot great out of the box and some shoot like shit.

Just ergonomics eh? Ergonomics is everything IMO. If one is not comfortable behind their rig they will not shoot to their full potential.
 
#74
Re: factory vs custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Super Bee 950</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anything mass produced that doesnt suck = custom </div></div>

That's the loosest definition of 'custom' I've ever seen. I have a lot of mass-produced, very costly items that don't suck and yet I didn't have any input in the making of any of them. I've always been of the understanding that 'custom' meant that the product was built, to some extent, to my whims and wishes. While I like my TRG, and it is very accurate, my only input was the type of car it rode home from the dealer in.

By the mass-produced-doesn't-suck definition, the camera body that I use, which does not suck, is custom. The fishing reels that I use, which are mass produced but don't suck, are custom.

A TRG is sold as they come out of the factory, every last one of them. I've never seen an option list that I could order from on them. I don't find calling a TRG a factory rifle demeaning in any way. Some 'factory' rifles just shoot a bit better and cost a bit more.
 
#75
Re: factory vs custom

Thats my interpretation of Vu's definition based on what he posted not mine. I agree 100 percent with you.

I find it rather convienient the two biggest cheerleaders on this thread with custom 100 percent reliable, consistent, and better than anything that was mass produced rifles wont post targets. One will get cold if he goes outside, and the other cant shoot at anything inside of 600 yards...... Hmmmmmm

 
#76
Re: factory vs custom

LOL...Super Bee..groups have been posted bud. Open your eyes a lil and you may see em. I guess some of us are short strokers and sit at a bench indoors at 100yards and some of us are long strokers that shoot outdoors at distance. To each their own.

Dunno what is better? some shots at 100yards or 6 shots in 18 seconds at 500 inside a few inches.

Stretch those legs on that TRG and then we can talk. That indoor 100yard range targets are for 12 year olds. =)

So what comps has that TRG won? Looks pretty clean, almost like a safe queen...or shall I say indoor range queen.
 
#80
Re: factory vs custom

I believe the nail was struck squarely on the head above. Price has nothing to do with whether a rifle is custom or factory. If a rifle is mass produced and the end user has no input as to the the final configuration of the rifle then it is a factory rifle.

I bought a Losok built on a .308 Stevens action in a Choate stock that was ugly as sin but I was the one that determined whether it was ugly or pretty, it shot .5 out to 800 yards (not with me shooting it I suck) and I only paid $1,100 for it and yet it was a one off custom, fully trued and with a Lothar Walther barrel.

I really have no preference one way or another, I'm just glad we have choices.
 
#81
Re: factory vs custom

Both the TRG and AW are CISM and UIT compliant and ARE used in competion...just happens to be in Europe. Dont know about the TRG but the AI's seem to do OK at matches.

So far getting sub MOA with mine, nothing to brag about compared to my Surgeon but then again I didnt get it for accuracy just for ruggedness and reliability.

Honestly I think this comparison is silly. A sniper rifle and that is what this site is about should be a blend of reliability and performance (accuracy). Full blown custom rigs from the bigger houses get the same attention as an AI in the build process as in either case its a person doing the fit finish and assembly not a group of people as it travels down a conveyor nor a robot, same could be said about a 40X for that matter. Is a 40X a custom or a factory rig? What about Surgeon Scalpels not much choice there either.

To answe the OP's question I will quote ROLEXRifleman "want a Lamborghini or a hotrod tuned by Billy Bobs hotrod shop?" point is they both work as designed and will both go fast which style do you prefer?
 
#82
Re: factory vs custom

Well said Anchor Station.

That was my point with Mr. Bee. To me a factory rig is a Rem M700 PSS or M700 5R. Something you can grab at most of your local gun shops and not spend a few grand on.

AI or Sako TRG are both made in a facotry but cost 2500 + and not readily available at "Bob's Gunshop".
 
#83
Re: factory vs custom

I shoot a lot of matches F/TR matches. I have allways shot a custom rifle and to this day i have not been beat by a factory rifle. Looking at the past F/Class and F/TR National matches no factory guns have won. Savage has done good though. I dont shoot Tact. matches but i have look at the results of several and it also seems the custom guns are at the top. Maybe i am missing something here but the custom rifles seem to do most of the winning.
 
#84
Re: factory vs custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Super Bee 950</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats my interpretation of Vu's definition based on what he posted not mine. I agree 100 percent with you. </div></div>

My mistake, sorry about that Super Bee 950
wink.gif
 
#85
Re: factory vs custom

It's like the old saying "if you have to ask...."

There are many reasons to go custom, maybe you want a certain look, maybe you want a 14" LOP or a 26" barrel in a certain contour. Maybe you want something unique built like you want it. Maybe better tolerances and better materials give you a competitive edge.

I've seen a lot of factory rifles that don't shoot for crap either, so maybe you don't want to chance getting one that shoots or doesn't. I have an old early 90's browning Abolt 06' that shoots ragged hole groups with 150gr hornady rounds......I'll never get rid of that gun. However, I bet I've shot 15-20 other a-bolts since then and none of them shot that well. I've seen kimber's that wouldn't shoot 3" groups at 100 yards. I've seen 700's that wouldn't shoot 1.5" etc. etc. I've seen several that shot .5" groups, but they are the exception.

You hear about it all the time, from the gun store talk you'd think every rifle out there shoots .5" all day every day. Tell those guys to bring back a target with 5 groups of 5 shots all under .5" and it never happens. Go to the gun store buy 25 remington 700's, tikka t3's, etc. and then order 25 custom rifles from GAP and put them head to head at 600+ yards and the GAP's will crush them.

If your factory rig shoots as accurately as you want it to, and it performs for you then nope there's no reason you "need" a custom rifle. Of course there's no reason we "need" to live in a big house or drive a new car either.

As to the whole "factory" thing, sure a TRG is technically a factory gun, but seriously $2600, $500 for a bipod, $500 for a scope rail, and $250 per magazine for a rifle IMO puts it in another class. You mise well say a Ferarri is a factory car. Nothing against the TRG it's a great rifle, I just don't consider it "factory". After the rumored price increase after Jan 1 they will be MORE expensive than a lot of custom rifles, esp. if you want a few spare mags.
 
#86
Re: factory vs custom

I think the original question is unfair to start with. Comparing a $600 box rifle and a $5000 custom then only speaking about MOA. Its like comparing a focus and a lambo and only speaking about how much it cost compared to gas mileage?

You get a lot of that custom money spent on custom work that has nothing to do with little holes in paper. Milled one piece actions, fluted bolts etc... sure never get sand in you rifle and the box gun is great but when you do? Ever had to force a stuck case out of a rifle in a stock action with no tools.
Heavy duty bottom metal that will take serious impact is important if you drag your rifle over rocks or drop it on the trigger gaud and sure sitting on a bench any bottom metal will be fine. I don't really think anyone in this thread will argue the $600 rifle over say badgers durability in an impact test.

Ever shot a custom box mag rifle? It wont make the holes any tighter but its sure nice to have when you use the rifle in and out of a drag bag and on and off a class range. Don't know about you but beats the hell out of a trap door rifle, most feed perfect to.

Fully adjustable cheek piece and LOP. Sure you can puch holes without one but ever lay behind a rifle in a hide for hours on and off the rifle. Sure makes fatigue set in quick with a crappy stock, should we talk about bedding and climate changes?

Would anyone argue a crisp clean trigger pull promotes better shot to shot repeatability? I haven't seen many great triggers out of the box on $600 rifles.

I am simply saying all those things cost money and lets face it its not cheap. Accuracy is not the only thing here when were speaking about working rifles and most of the customs are made to fill that roll. Will a lot of the people buying them use them for that, well probly not but some like knowing they could. Theres more to that $5000 price tag then who can cover a 600 meter group with a quarter.

Just IMHO of course.
 
#87
Re: factory vs custom

I have a semi custom that started out as a 700adl in 22-250.Mike at Tac Ops sold me a take off bbl from a ps and I had a local smith put it togather.It will hold a 1in or less 5 shot group at 300yds and a 3 to 4 in group at 600yds(when I do my part at 600)conistately with fgmm.Mabyee I just lucked up and everything fell into place as it should have or the old smith knows what he is doing.I know that rifle shows that you don't need to spend a shit load of money to achieve custom quality.
 
#88
Re: factory vs custom

To me (and probably most), the difference in a custom and factory rifle is the custom is "custom". You get what you want, not what you have to get "out of the box."

Are there factory rifles out there that out shoot custom rifles? Yes, alot of 'em.
Do most customs shoot better than factory rifles? Of course.

So, if you are happy with your factory rifle, shoot it and enjoy.

s.i.t. - will see ya one day at Palo Alto and we can compare performance.
grin.gif
 
#90
Re: factory vs custom

Superbee,
Once again, yes a TRG is a Factory made gun but custom class by nature. It is a highly tuned, precision made $2500 + rig.

As far as shooting, I don't know if I have ever posted targets but there are a few here who have seen me shoot and I can hold my own.

Here is some eye candy, not shot indoors at 100 yards on paper either. It was done with a real factory gun (Savage10fp) bring your TRG and see if you can best this one. P.S. just so you know it's not luck - I shot him twice. My furtherest this year was 1140 Yards ....on film. Will be out soon : )

924 yard chuck
PS. hit the full size button bottom right, makes it full screen.

JamieD

P.S. - Saying "I shoot a Factory gun" while spending what $5000 on your entire rig, is like crying poormouth with 100K in the bank.
Just an excuse when you loose if you ask me : )

 
#91
Re: factory vs custom

No what i am SAYING LOUD AND CLEAR is my custom gun will woork and shoot better than your Savage. Nothing against Savage guns i have a few but they wont work as good or shoot as good as my custom built Bats do. This isnt my opion its a fact. If your Savage works for you use it. I can give you a list of matches won with custom guns can you give me a list of matches won with factory guns. You can upgrade you Savage all you want and it might shoot with a BAT Stolle or a stiller but in the end if you decide to part with it you still have a 6 to 700 dollar Savage. While a custom gun will hold it value. If your happy shooting what you have shoot it. But from the looks of things you have your doubts other wiseyou would be winning matches with it. I wish everyone shot a upgraded Savage that would expand the point spread<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so what your saying is, since i add a few aftermarket parts on my rifle to help me perform alittle better it makes it a custom stick. i get it now </div></div>
 
#92
Re: factory vs custom

i have no douts in my savage. ive seen what it can and will do in the hands of someone who was trained by the UNITED STATES MARINES. the man took my rifle and hand loads for my rifle, my dope and at 300 yards gave me a .450 inch group at 300 yards with 5 shots. all this done at the american shooting center in houston tx. the dout is not in my rifle, the dout is in me. im still a newb. but im learning. and as have said on several times in this post, no matter which i shoot, whether it be factory or custom, i personaly shoot them the same.
 
#93
Re: factory vs custom

Not to flog a dead horse,but trying to compair a factory stick with a "rock rifle" or better yet an AIAW is pointless. The customs are made to deliver CONSISTANT performance for hundreds of rounds under the most trying conditions i.e. your life is dependent on the weapon functioning every time. I have several factory guns and they perform well as long as you understand their limitations...

Just a thought, Buck Garrett
 
#94
F v C

I Think it is safe to say that while the factory guns have come a LONG way, and most factory guns are only limited by their shooters... there is a reason custom builds exist, and it isn't only for fitment
 
#95
Re: factory vs custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stover954rr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cant a mod just lock this thread..... </div></div>

+1, this is probably going to turn into a shit-storm
 
#97
Re: factory vs custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: James Garrett jr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> fill out your profile...</div></div>

if this was directed at me, what am i missing?
 
#99
Re: factory vs custom

Look guys,no one is trying to be difficult,one of the things most everyone who has been here any length of time checks is the profile of new members. It lends credibility and makes you look a bit more sincere,dont take it as an insult,after all,this is the information super highway or as some call it "the disinformation cowpath",take your pick...

Regards, Buck Garrett
 
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