Fastest Cartridge in a R700 (.308 Boltface) ❓🤔❓

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Sitting around reviewing ballistic data got distracted thinking about why I really got into handloads……velocity.

I checked my “hotrod” load and it’s scooting at 3,673fps. Just a 243W and a 55gn Nosler Varmageddon. It’s been a great Varmint round….problem is the barrel is shot out. I knew it wouldn’t last long and that’s okay. Besides, it was my first reloading experience and I learned a lot.

What should I look at next for a hotrod R700 (308 boltface) ?

 

[spife7980]

22 creed is king of the coop for a relatively mainstream fast .473” short action.

 

[FuhQ]

I was going to say, 22 CM is probably the new mainstream top dog for velocity. If you're going old school or reload, .22-250 AI is a great option. I used to have a custom built 20" .22-250 20+ years ago, and it was a screamer with 50-55gr Hornady SST (VMax) factory ammo.

6mm CM would give you some more wiggle room for versatility. If you put a 7" twist barrel on it, you can stabilize up to 115gr 6mm bullets, which would be just fine for deer out to a couple hundred yards. But also able to shoot varmints with fast lightweight bullets.

 

[canezach]

The 243 loaded with light bullets is nothing but gas pedal, but like Spife said, the 22 Creedmoor with something like a 60 grain VMax and you're probably topping 3600 fps

 

[FuhQ]

The 243 loaded with light bullets is nothing but gas pedal, but like Spife said, the 22 Creedmoor with something like a 60 grain VMax and you're probably topping 3600 fps

He'd probably be pushing 4K with a 50-60gr bullet in a .22CM stuffed with CFE223 or Lever.

 

[msgriff]

I thought that it would still be the 220 Swift.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

20-250 if you're just trying to see how fast you can get there.

20-243 if you want to see how fast you can burn. Out a barrel.

17-243?

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

The 243 loaded with light bullets is nothing but gas pedal, but like Spife said, the 22 Creedmoor with something like a 60 grain VMax and you're probably topping 3600 fps

Yeah but I’m at 3,673 already. On a factory barrel, 24”

How how in weight could fast twist vaporize? Berger didn’t have light weight 22 cal stuff on their stabilization chart.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

20-250 if you're just trying to see how fast you can get there.

20-243 if you want to see how fast you can burn. Out a barrel.

17-243?

Velocities?

Range limited to 500 yard. Barrel life 1000 rounds please.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I’ve got some 243AI dies.

Hmmmmm….22CM Ackley?

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I should have clarified.

Limitations:
308BF
Varmint projo up to deer
1”@100

I feel the “Varmint projo” requirement may be the most restrictive.

 

[FuhQ]

I should have clarified.

Limitations:
308BF
Varmint projo up to deer
1”@100

I feel the “Varmint projo” requirement may be the most restrictive.

I'd go 16"-20" 1:7 twist 6mm CM... Allows light varmint weight, up to 110-115gr bullets. Ought to be pretty solid for deer inside of 500 yards...Coyotes and hogs 600-750.

 

[squirrel_slayer]

Velocities?

Range limited to 500 yard. Barrel life 1000 rounds please.

I've seen a 20-250AI on another forum break 5k ft/sec with a monolithic bullet of really light weight. (saubier was the forum)

But to answer your request the 22CM should easily achieve your goals. I would use a slower than normal twist(9-12) if your going to play with varmint bullets and don't want them to explode lol. 4200+with 40gr bullets shouldn't be a problem from longer barrels.

As for hunting bullets someone on the hide killed an elk with his using 88gr eld's (finding a twist that works with both 40's an 88's isn't likely gonna work out) But I would assume you might be able to get something in the 75-80gr range that will work well still.

1200 rounds seems to be a safe number with the 22cm. I hope to get more than that from mine but I treat barrels like tires....if you want performance you gotta pay to play

 

[st1650]

I've seen a 20-250AI on another forum break 5k ft/sec with a monolithic bullet of really light weight. (saubier was the forum)

But to answer your request the 22CM should easily achieve your goals. I would use a slower than normal twist(9-12) if your going to play with varmint bullets and don't want them to explode lol. 4200+with 40gr bullets shouldn't be a problem from longer barrels.

As for hunting bullets someone on the hide killed an elk with his using 88gr eld's (finding a twist that works with both 40's an 88's isn't likely gonna work out) But I would assume you might be able to get something in the 75-80gr range that will work well still.

1200 rounds seems to be a safe number with the 22cm. I hope to get more than that from mine but I treat barrels like tires....if you want performance you gotta pay to play

I’ve seen a guy burn through his 22CM barrels under 800 rounds ...

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I've seen a 20-250AI on another forum break 5k ft/sec with a monolithic bullet of really light weight. (saubier was the forum)

But to answer your request the 22CM should easily achieve your goals. I would use a slower than normal twist(9-12) if your going to play with varmint bullets and don't want them to explode lol. 4200+with 40gr bullets shouldn't be a problem from longer barrels.

As for hunting bullets someone on the hide killed an elk with his using 88gr eld's (finding a twist that works with both 40's an 88's isn't likely gonna work out) But I would assume you might be able to get something in the 75-80gr range that will work well still.

1200 rounds seems to be a safe number with the 22cm. I hope to get more than that from mine but I treat barrels like tires....if you want performance you gotta pay to play

1200 would be darn near on the nose.

40’s @ 4200 would be sweet. Barns Varmint gernade comes to mind. They have 30/36/50 gn offering.

Maybe 30gn-77? Maybe that’s too far an ask. Looks like o new to study twist rates and exploding projos.

 

[acudaowner]

6.5 weatherby magnum ?

 

[supercorndogs]

I’ve seen a guy burn through his 22CM barrels under 800 rounds ...

I have burned out a 22-250 barrel in less than 800 rounds.

 

[supercorndogs]

I shot 40s at 4200fps in my 22-250.

I think for speed the 22/243AI is hard to beat. But if you had a long action, maybe a 22/280AI. Could you fit a 22/284 in your short action?

Waiting for someone to say, it will limit powder capacity due to OAL constrictions.

Find some brass in stock, order it and get it in hand, then build that one. 6 creed is pretty easy to find stuff for.

 

[LR1845]

As @msgriff mentioned hard to beat a 220 swift...

220 Swift Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.

www.nosler.com

Or like @supercorndogs said a 22/250 AI

22-250 Remington Ackley Improved Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.

www.nosler.com

 

[supercorndogs]

Does the 220 swift fit the same bolt face with its semi rimmed case?

 

[Charger442]

Does the 220 swift fit the same bolt face with its semi rimmed case?

Should be the same bolt face diameter. Shouldn't be a problem to run on a short action properly barreled.

 

[squirrel_slayer]

1200 would be darn near on the nose.

40’s @ 4200 would be sweet. Barns Varmint gernade comes to mind. They have 30/36/50 gn offering.

Maybe 30gn-77? Maybe that’s too far an ask. Looks like o new to study twist rates and exploding projos.

So one thing to consider is while uber fast sounds bad ass, if your engaging out to 500yds those super fast <40gr bullets will have lost alot of steam at said distance. something in the low 50's going ~4k will have more ass and still be eventful. You can play with velocity/bc's to see what I'm talking about.

One bullet I like to play with (not at nuclear speeds) is the 34gr dogtown (also sold as varmint nightmare and shots through other vendors. made by nosler)

I've played with the numbers and if it were me I'd push you towards the 53gr hornady or nosler varmegeddon (best BC for the weight class) for my varmint bullet then run ~9 twist which will get you in to the 75-80gr class of bullets without trouble on the big end. quickload is showing you can still get close to 4200 with the 53gr. Just remember the harder you lean on it and higher volume of shooting is going to play hell on your throat! lol

 

[squirrel_slayer]

Another visual. Dark lines are velocity/energy for a 40gr @4200. Lighter are a 53@4k. Red is velocity, Blue is energy. The 53 has a 300 ft/lb lead everywehre! At about 120yds it's actually faster than the 40's already. by the 500yd mark it has nearly a 350 ft/sec lead and velocity=splattyness

Hope this helped muddy the waters lol

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

So one thing to consider is while uber fast sounds bad ass, if your engaging out to 500yds those super fast <40gr bullets will have lost alot of steam at said distance. something in the low 50's going ~4k will have more ass and still be eventful. You can play with velocity/bc's to see what I'm talking about.

One bullet I like to play with (not at nuclear speeds) is the 34gr dogtown (also sold as varmint nightmare and shots through other vendors. made by nosler)

I've played with the numbers and if it were me I'd push you towards the 53gr hornady or nosler varmegeddon (best BC for the weight class) for my varmint bullet then run ~9 twist which will get you in to the 75-80gr class of bullets without trouble on the big end. quickload is showing you can still get close to 4200 with the 53gr. Just remember the harder you lean on it and higher volume of shooting is going to play hell on your throat! lol

View attachment 8164979

I appreciate the technical analysis, thank you! I’ve got some H414 left so that helps already.

With the current 243 I’m pushing the 40gn Varmageddon @ 500yds:

Energy: 433ftlbs
Velocity: 1883fps

500 is the longest steel bay at my range, longest kill I’ve ever had was 177yds. I like to call em in close so I don’t have to walk as far to get the pelt.

But knowing my hits on steel at 500 gives the the confidence of a shot at that distance was necessary.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Another visual. Dark lines are velocity/energy for a 40gr @4200. Lighter are a 53@4k. Red is velocity, Blue is energy. The 53 has a 300 ft/lb lead everywehre! At about 120yds it's actually faster than the 40's already. by the 500yd mark it has nearly a 350 ft/sec lead and velocity=splattyness

Hope this helped muddy the waters lol
View attachment 8164983

Dang. This is very helpful

 

[squirrel_slayer]

So for comparison to your .243 the 53gr Varmagedon @4k has 2340 ft/sec @500yds and 640 ft/lbs of energy.

I would try them to validate speed but I'm quite certain my 7 twist would blow them up! lol

 

[XP1K]

Another visual. Dark lines are velocity/energy for a 40gr @4200. Lighter are a 53@4k. Red is velocity, Blue is energy. The 53 has a 300 ft/lb lead everywehre! At about 120yds it's actually faster than the 40's already. by the 500yd mark it has nearly a 350 ft/sec lead and velocity=splattyness

Hope this helped muddy the waters lol
View attachment 8164983

That's actually pretty impressive. To me anyway. Makes me want another 22-250. After I smoked mine I moved on to a 243win. I was shooting the Barnes varmint grenade, 67gr I think, at 3,700fps. 55gr noslers were running right at 4k. Now it's a 243ai. Yet to play with the light bullets again but 85gr gamekings are running 3,600 with win760. Or was it 748? I can't remember.

 

[DLS]

Shot a half dozen Aoudad with 22 Creedmoor two weeks ago.
Sweet spot for it with 1/8 twist is 70-88gr bullets.
I agree with poster above go 1/9 or 1/10 if you want to go lighter than 70gr and go faster.
I have been shooting 22 Creedmoor almost 10 years now and it’s a sweet round but not really meant for PD type high rate fire although it would excel except for those pesky barrel
Replacements…. I got right at 950 out of the first one but I ran it hard just shooting coyotes and deer with a few hogs thrown in.

 

[supercorndogs]

My 1 in 9 wouldn't stabilize the 75 a max. I would be looking at 1 in 8 if you want to shoot heavies. It will shoot light bullets fine too. My current 22-250 is 1 in 9, my plan was to shoot the 70 rdf but they didn't shoot well. It mostly eats 53 v max they are pretty good for 6-700 on a calm day.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

That's actually pretty impressive. To me anyway. Makes me want another 22-250. After I smoked mine I moved on to a 243win. I was shooting the Barnes varmint grenade, 67gr I think, at 3,700fps. 55gr noslers were running right at 4k. Now it's a 243ai. Yet to play with the light bullets again but 85gr gamekings are running 3,600 with win760. Or was it 748? I can't remember.

I’ve been sidelined on the 85GK.

Sierra said “sometime in 2023” they would be producing more. love it in my 243AI. Thought I bought enough. Nope. Lesson learned.

 

[XP1K]

I’ve been sidelined on the 85GK.

Sierra said “sometime in 2023” they would be producing more. love it in my 243AI. Thought I bought enough. Nope. Lesson learned.

I want to try the 95gr tmk or the 90gr tgk. I'm limited to the factory 9 twist on it right now. When this barrel is toast it'll get a faster twist. I was shocked by the damage from the 85gr bthp gk. Popped a yote in a dead run around 150 yards. Didn't quite lead her enough, caught her right in the middle. Was not pretty. Not fur friendly at all.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I want to try the 95gr tmk or the 90gr tgk. I'm limited to the factory 9 twist on it right now. When this barrel is toast it'll get a faster twist. I was shocked by the damage from the 85gr bthp gk. Popped a yote in a dead run around 150 yards. Didn't quite lead her enough, caught her right in the middle. Was not pretty. Not fur friendly at all.

Hate to waste food winter fur.

The 55gn Varmageddon was a delight

 

[B y r o n]

Since you said you are only looking for speed then why not load 22 caliber bullets in 30 caliber sabots?

 

[squirrel_slayer]

He's looking to replace a shot out barrel. And I've never seen sabots hold MOA or better groups. Makes more sense to build the right tool for the job if he has a blank canvas.

 

[CaptNemo]

6mm/.284 or .22/.284
Spit Lead, Eat Barrel Throats...
Go Big or Go Home

 

[B y r o n]

He's looking to replace a shot out barrel. And I've never seen sabots hold MOA or better groups. Makes more sense to build the right tool for the job if he has a blank canvas.

I never read anything about the desire for accuracy, only speed. Sabots should shoot just fine in shot out barrel.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I never read anything about the desire for accuracy, only speed. Sabots should shoot just fine in shot out barrel.

I should have clarified, accurate to 1moa puhlease.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

22-243 vs 22CM

That’s what’s in my head right now.

 

[squirrel_slayer]

22CM hands down! 22-243 isn't going to give you much more unless your running a 28"+ barrel and running heavies. And you can kiss that 1000 round barrel goodbye!

Those figures I posted earlier are at 62k psi. If you wanted to lean on it get some peterson or alpha srp brass and run 65k loads
not to mention there is a ton of support for the 22cm. Brass, dies, even pre-fits I bet.

I could reach out to my buddy who spun my barrel up and see if he'd be interested doing another? Were in AZ too.

He's an IT nerd that does this as a hobby. But he does nice work!
Here's mine, not done doing load dev yet but so far I'm tickled pink! 5 shot group, 88gr eldm, alpha srp brass, CCI 450, N165, 100yds, ~3050 ft/sec no pressure so I'm going to shoot for the next node.

 

[supercorndogs]

If its a bigger case its faster at any barrel length.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

22CM hands down! 22-243 isn't going to give you much more unless your running a 28"+ barrel and running heavies. And you can kiss that 1000 round barrel goodbye!

Those figures I posted earlier are at 62k psi. If you wanted to lean on it get some peterson or alpha srp brass and run 65k loads
not to mention there is a ton of support for the 22cm. Brass, dies, even pre-fits I bet.

I could reach out to my buddy who spun my barrel up and see if he'd be interested doing another? Were in AZ too.

He's an IT nerd that does this as a hobby. But he does nice work!
Here's mine, not done doing load dev yet but so far I'm tickled pink! 5 shot group, 88gr eldm, alpha srp brass, CCI 450, N165, 100yds, ~3050 ft/sec no pressure so I'm going to shoot for the next node.

The data you posted on the 53gn is impossible to ignore.

I’m very interested in hearing if your buddy feels like spinning up another.

 

[squirrel_slayer]

Huh, interesting. I'm reading that 22-243 is only 50gr where 22cm is 51-52gr depending on what brass you use. the 22-243 middlestead (improved variant) is closer to 55gr

I'll ask him and get back to you Doc

 

[CaptNemo]

Huh, interesting. I'm reading that 22-243 is only 50gr where 22cm is 51-52gr depending on what brass you use. the 22-243 middlestead (improved variant) is closer to 55gr

I'll ask him and get back to you Doc

Gordon's Reloading Tool lists typical .284 Win brass at 66.30grs of water capacity.
Put a 9" twist in the barrel Score some RL26 and watch lightweight bullets disintegrate before they reach the target.
There's some real fun ! The Labradar won't know WTH is going on...

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Gordon's Reloading Tool lists typical .284 Win brass at 66.30grs of water capacity.
Put a 9" twist in the barrel Score some RL26 and watch lightweight bullets disintegrate before they reach the target.
There's some real fun ! The Labradar won't know WTH is going on...

As fun as that might be for a while impacts do matter as well.

 

[45-90]

With a 17 Rem and a 15.5 copper bullets 4900 fps can be reached with the 223 bolt face...and a non wildcat cartridge, and the old 220 Swift 308 bolt face has some loads in the 4400 to 4500 fps, but there may be some lighter bullets to up the speed.

 

[iceng]

22 middlestead. Which is basically 22-243 sorta improved. Those things arw scary quick.

 

[Mike Casselton]

6mm/.284 or .22/.284
Spit Lead, Eat Barrel Throats...
Go Big or Go Home

I was trying to read the entire thread before answering, but ^^^^ there's what I was going to recommend.

All the speed you can handle and right at 1k barrel life.

Sportsman's Whorehouse in Seminole, FL has a couple boxes of Lapua 6.5-284 brass in stock as of yesterday...

 

[XP1K]

If the OP is already invested in 243 supplies and equipment I say build another 243. If not, I guess it couldn't hurt to start fresh.

After studying load data with the heavier 6mm pills, the 6creed vs 243, I was really leaning to building a 6creed next. But, I've got 243 dies, 243ai dies, 243 brass, 7-08 brass, 308 brass. Doesn't make a lot of sense for me to switch and have to retool.

 

[nockhunter]

6mm Rem ai with a 1:14 twist. Look it up on accurate shooter. Awesome speed with light bullets.

Mike

check this one out

You are being redirected...

 

[CaseFinder]

So for comparison to your .243 the 53gr Varmagedon @4k has 2340 ft/sec @500yds and 640 ft/lbs of energy.

I would try them to validate speed but I'm quite certain my 7 twist would blow them up! lol

On that note, is a 7 twist problematic for jackets coming apart on the Swift? I have been slowly acquiring new 22 caliber barrel factory pull-offs with the intent to go to the smith and have them all barreled to 220 Swift AI. Already have the reamer and gauges with smith telling me I will be lucky to get more than 700-800 rounds out of each barrel; that my brass with the 40 degree shoulder will last longer.