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Favorite Stainless AR15 “Recce” Style Barrel?
- Thread starter j3fff
- Start date
The best shooting carbine barrel I have is a CLE Recon. Here's a link:
compasslake.com
They have the 15.1" length and 16.1". Mine is actually the 15.1". I chose the Douglas blank, they offer Criterion, Douglas, Kreiger and Bartlein at different price points...
Awesome barrel, I'm partial to Douglas since they are 25min away from my house.
Recon 16.1 with Mid Gas System – Compass Lake Engineering
compasslake.com
They have the 15.1" length and 16.1". Mine is actually the 15.1". I chose the Douglas blank, they offer Criterion, Douglas, Kreiger and Bartlein at different price points...
Awesome barrel, I'm partial to Douglas since they are 25min away from my house.
Maybe 10 years ago. John's been gone for what 5-6 years? Joel Allen (Noveske's former lead shop tech) is doing his own thing at V7 for a while now and PacNor was burnt to the ground recently...
So...pretty much the pillars of Noveske are now all gone.
It doesn't take much effort to follow a winning recipe, but the industry can't resist screwing up a good thing. I tend to err on not giving the benefit of the doubt.
Regardless, I'm curious to see if they've got enough talent behind the scenes with Pac-Nor gone (and likely their proprietary tooling that was there) and where they get their stainless barrels.
JP, WOA, Craddock with either a Rock Creek or Bartlein barrel, Douglas, Kreiger or Barlien from CLE.
All are great.
MM
All are great.
MM
LW is interesting me but where is the best place to get them? Seems like it’s just directly from their website?
If you want the "original" recce barrel a Lilja recon is excellent, otherwise anything CLE can spin up is great.
Another vote for Lothar Walther. I’ve got White Oaks, CLE Douglas, and Lothar Walther (a few in the past too). It’s hanging right there with the rest, if not better. The current one I’m using is the lighter weight profile and melonite finish. Gas ports are sized correctly too. Paid $270 from a distributor.
Krieger
Go on YouTube and watch a bunch of Borescope video's and you'll real quickly that these are the best AR prefit barrels and why. Then go on to Krieger's website and read everything in the "about" and "q&a" sections about all of the attention to details that go into their barrels and how that at every step of the manufacturing process Krieger is using the absolute best manufacturing methods possible even the best grade bar stock is used. Many barrel manufacturers don't mention these details for a reason. Then go read up on the single point cut rifling vs button rifling and when you're done you'll know exactly what you're looking for from a barrel maker.
Go on YouTube and watch a bunch of Borescope video's and you'll real quickly that these are the best AR prefit barrels and why. Then go on to Krieger's website and read everything in the "about" and "q&a" sections about all of the attention to details that go into their barrels and how that at every step of the manufacturing process Krieger is using the absolute best manufacturing methods possible even the best grade bar stock is used. Many barrel manufacturers don't mention these details for a reason. Then go read up on the single point cut rifling vs button rifling and when you're done you'll know exactly what you're looking for from a barrel maker.
Krieger is far from the only choice in a cut rifled AR barrel. Several makers are as good or possibly better. My dozen or so Krieger AR barrels were all slow and none were stunningly accurate.
I prefer the Navy contract Douglas barrel for the MK 12, (Not cut rifled) Bartlien and the old Les Baer barrels if you can find one.
I prefer the Navy contract Douglas barrel for the MK 12, (Not cut rifled) Bartlien and the old Les Baer barrels if you can find one.
Yep, the original and it's a damn nice barrel all around. Not heavy as shit, not a pencil. Made for a job that it does very well and it's not all that expensive for what you get really. It's a damn nice barrel and I've used 'em since and may again.
I'm one of the original SDM instructors from SBASC and I ran into a buddy on here that went through the program. We got to talking about how the Navy recce rifle was basically THE DMR we had planned only with a special barrel. I built the rifle, then helped him put one together using basically an identical setup (well, access to my tools, he knows his shit too). They're both sub-MOA rifles and his just keeps getting better. Last time we talked he said he thinks he found the magic and that any rifles from here on out will built using that recipe. It's hard to disagree with him, it's an accurate rifle that can lay down some lead and barrels aren't all that expensive that burning one out and replacing a bit early ain't gonna kill 'ya. So he built one like mine but is putting together another one with a reflex sight, basically an M4 but with a much better barrel.
But I'm putting together another one, too albeit a bit different. I have a few lowers I wanna finish out before the ban or boogaloo, whichever happens first I guess, so I planned on building an update to the one above. This one will have a fluted Krieger bbl. and 13" URX 4 w/direct attach Mlok shit to keep the weight down even more. Considered PR CF barrel but everyone seems to say they're not a good choice for precision rifle that may still see some rapid fire, that they delam at temps easily reached with 5.56 and a can.
Other than the barrel and tube and fact it'll sport a nicer optic, the rest will be more or less the same. I would mention I use JP FMOS carriers and JP bolts --short of factory KAC shit, this is the most reliable setup you can put in an AR. Use the right buffer and spring and you won't need to be fucking with adj. gas blocks, promise (Noveske switchblocks are okay though but still not necessary). Speaking of, pin those gas blocks! Even if you have to booger up the handguard to make it happen.
But if you want a "real" recce rifle, it's the Lilja barrel you want and it comes in 1/8 .223 Wylde 16". If you want a custom knockoff (which IMO all navy recce rifles are a "knockoff" of civilian shit anyway) then get a Krieger or Satern or other cut rifle barrel and call it good (this may be an even better option, though you're getting close to splitting hairs on which is more accurate now). Lilja may make the best button rifle barrels and Krieger or Satern the best cut rifle, any case they're all top notch and it shows. Optic, grip, handguard, stock, basically everything short of the issue milspec receiver group and the barreled upper is totally upgradeable by the user. It's why I say it's a civilian knockoff rather than the other way around.
BTW, my best barrel is a Satern 6.5G that'll do .33MOA consistently with 120gr. BT's and the right load. It took me four years to get it though, so if Satern doesn't have it in stock and ready to ship, pass. Worth a look though, I HATE their CS regarding trying to place custom orders and wait time is abysmal, but I can't lie, they do make stellar barrels.
But I have another Grendel that's an SBR and it has an 11" Lilja and it ain't no joke either --1MOA thereabouts and I haven't even begun looking for a load for it yet (it's also the softest shooting rifle EVER that still functions properly).
Noveske makes good barrels, they're my goto for SBR barrels but I think you can do better with precision ones.
Finished? There is no such thing as a prefit AR barrel... its either an AR barrel or it isnt...
This is a ligit question for you. What happens to Krieger barrels if you do 400 to 500 rounds rapid fire? Like in an hour or two? Will it mess it up? Will it loose accuracy?
uuuuuuuuuuh, that's very open ended.
The simple answer is nothing worse will happen to the Krieger than any other barrel made out of the same grade of stainless and left raw. The other simple answer is that barrels are constantly degrading and wearing or "getting messed up".
For starters if you're planning on rapid fire then you should get a chrome lined barrel from the start. Buying a SS match barrel to do that is retarded. Also are you talking about 400 or 500 rounds, there's a 20% difference there... and over 1 hour or 2 hours, because that's twice at many RPM if it's 1hr. Also tossing in "rapid fire" are you talking about dumping half the ammo on an auto lower as fast as you can, taking a long beer break, and firing the rest, or firing it all at the same rate over the period of time?
Your question quite frankly doesn't make much sense.
If you buy from Krieger 95% of the time you are buying a BLANK. They only make a few finished barrels. They call it that so the customer knows they are getting a finished barrel and not a blank.
In the last 30 years I have used just about every brand of blank made. Krieger, Bartlein Broughton, Lilja, Hart, PacNor/Noveske, Douglas, Shilen, Rock then many that aren't in that league. I always check the straightness on a lathe. The only thing I can say is I have never seen a crooked Krieger. Every shop turns out crooked barrels but IME Krieger never lets them out the door. If I am turning a match barrel for myself it will be a Krieger every time. Broughton laps their blanks slicker than any I have ever seen, very very fine grit, they would be my #2 choice.
Below-Looks like an AR15 barrel doesn't it? That is what they sold for over 20 years. It is a legal DCM barrel with the muzzle threaded, gas port drilled, extension on but not torqued. It has been short chambered and it has not been crowned. A "pre-fit" is complete with a finished chamber and crown.
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People who make both tell me that when both are done correctly, the only difference between them is life.
Do you know something that they don't?
And yes, Krieger makes very good barrels, & I do have a couple, but no more so than numerous other manufacturers.
Might want to take a look here..............popularity doesn't always equal best, in most cases with pro shooters it likely does as they don't want to give away an edge.
What the Pros Use
MM
Like one said above, if you are going to do mag dumps don't buy a stainless barrel. Melonite(Nitride) treated will last much longer and be as accurate. Chrome lined will last longer but usually aren't as accurate. Stainless isn't a good choice for a duty/combat/carbine course barrel. I wouldn't even use one for 3 gun.
Years ago I was testing a piston system so I pulled a cheap stainless barrel out and built the upper. Went to the range and went through a can(820) in about an hour. The barrel turned blue like the exhaust on a bike. When I got back to the shop I borescoped it and the throat was fried/fire checked bad. Another hour like that and I think it would have started blowing chunks of lands out.
According to "what the pro's use" 5 of the top 6 barrels in PRS are cut rifled lol. Out of the top barrel makers from PRS only Proof and Krieger make finished and chambered stainless AR barrels. You can buy an AR barrel from the other makers such as Bartlein for example but it's a Bartlien barrel blank that was sent off to a thrid party company to do the rest of the work as opposed to a Krieger or Proof in which all of work was done by them and to their standards. Which brings us to Proof and Krieger. With Kreiger's rifling method the cutter removes approximately .0001 inch, or 1 ten-thousandth of an inch, at each pass, thus taking several hundred passes to rifle a barrel. This method produces almost perfect concentricity between bore and groove, a very uniform twist rate, and induces no stress into the steel that later has to be relieved. While proof doesn't tell how much the cutter removes each pass and their are double stress relieved.
Bartlein absolutely does their own.barrel work I house. I talk to Frank Green @ Bartlein all the time. He sends me.barrels and.blanks that I've reviewed on here many times over. Have you.been to Bartleins facility? I'm sure @Frank Green would love to.chime in on you saying they send there finished barrel work out of house to be done and their rifling methods.
Your statements are hilarious. These very statements your making I have done countless testing and reviews, all posted here on SH showing of all the top name.barrels, button vs cut, nut vs shouldered to disprove.
I have a review going on right now in the 220TB vs 224V shooting a Green Mountain 416SS button barrel.vs a identical contour, twist, length, chamber Bartlein and they shoot EXACTLY the same. Both these blanks finished by Keystone Accuracy.
Bartlein will shit a brick if you say a Green Mountain shoots as good as a Bartlein. I will too, they are some of the roughest I have seen. I sent a whole batch of 100 back about 4 years ago.
My 308 Fix had a green mountain barrel and it shot 1/2moa with factory Lapua 155gr Scenars. My buddy has one and loads for it and it’s right there or better.
When you’re making $100 blanks you’re gonna turn out some turds on occasion, but you can also make some good ones too.
Frank sent me the blank for the review against the GM. The Bartleins node was wider and will last roughly 1000rd longer in this caliber
In the post above who said "be sure to get the long freebore chamber if you want to sling heavies"? If you are loading to shoot out of a mag and have a limited OAL that statement is backwards.
Are you familiar with the cartridges? Have you even shot either of.these calibers? Obviously not...
Long freebore 224V bolt gun reamer with .110" freebore (vs .055" sammi) to shoot heavies (88 ELD, 90smk, 95smk) for max case capacity are at a COAL of 2.39 to 2.42 which run in MDT 224V AICS pattern mags which have a max coal of 2.563. I designed this reamer which differs in a few areas from the sammi reamer, one of which being the freebore. Keystone Accuracy and PVA are both running my reamer for bolt gun orders that want to handload.
88 ELD-M 2.41
90SMK 2.39
95SMK 2.42
These measurements are touching the lands putting boat tail bearing surface junction right at the case neck/shoulder junction. Plenty of room to chase lands in this mag.
Statement is very much correct and not backwards at all.
Well yeah bolt gun and a long possible OAL. If you were talking AR15 mag it would be backwards, that is why I said IF you have a limited OAL.
And yes I have made a lot of 224 Valkyries and I am the one who caught the Reamer mistake PTG made a few years ago.
You quoted my post and said my statement you quoted was backwards. You obviously didnt read what you were quoting or you would have read you were quoting a bolt gun review and saw all the data I just explained...
What I saw was the little square with 3 lines showing.
To be clear I am saying IF you are shootig an AR15 and load to mag length you do not want the long freebore chamber to shoot 80s, 83s, 88s, 90s or 95s. You need the SAAMI chamber or a shorter freebore chamber.
I posted this on the Valkyrie forum June 2018.
Constructor
Reamers causing bad accuracy
« on: June 07, 2018, 02:07:31 PM »
I can't go back and edit my first post here but I want to be very clear in what I found. IMO the design of the Valkyrie is NOT bad and there should be no Valkyrie II. The mistake here is in who ground the carbide reamers to chamber many of the barrels. The reamers were not ground to SAAMI spec. The reamers as ground caused the 90gr SMK to have a .060" jump to the lands. I have 2 different reamer prints with the same dates, the second is correct but was obviously made later to cover the fact that the first and the one used to grind the reamers had mistakes. The SAAMI spec V reamer should work well for most Federal factory ammo. The 90smk has a jump to the lands but not .060" --
I did make a new chamber drawing specifically for VLDs. It should be more accurate with VLDs but will almost make 55-77gr bullets unusable. I drew it up when I thought the problem was a bad chamber design by SAAMI. Turns out that was not the case. ---
We went through the same issues with the 6.8 and reamers problems almost killed the 6.8. This bad V reamer problem will cause a lot of trouble for a lot of people and drag several companies names through the mud when it may not be the fault of the barrel seller, producer or maker even though the maker should have checked the reamer before chambering any barrels. IMO we need to get out front of this and fix the reamer problem and let everyone know THAT IS where the problem lies before everyone starts talking about what a **** cartridge the Valkyrie is.
If you are a barrel producer or manufacturer check your chamber against the SAAMI print.
To be clear I am saying IF you are shootig an AR15 and load to mag length you do not want the long freebore chamber to shoot 80s, 83s, 88s, 90s or 95s. You need the SAAMI chamber or a shorter freebore chamber.
I posted this on the Valkyrie forum June 2018.
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Reamers causing bad accuracy
« on: June 07, 2018, 02:07:31 PM »
I can't go back and edit my first post here but I want to be very clear in what I found. IMO the design of the Valkyrie is NOT bad and there should be no Valkyrie II. The mistake here is in who ground the carbide reamers to chamber many of the barrels. The reamers were not ground to SAAMI spec. The reamers as ground caused the 90gr SMK to have a .060" jump to the lands. I have 2 different reamer prints with the same dates, the second is correct but was obviously made later to cover the fact that the first and the one used to grind the reamers had mistakes. The SAAMI spec V reamer should work well for most Federal factory ammo. The 90smk has a jump to the lands but not .060" --
I did make a new chamber drawing specifically for VLDs. It should be more accurate with VLDs but will almost make 55-77gr bullets unusable. I drew it up when I thought the problem was a bad chamber design by SAAMI. Turns out that was not the case. ---
We went through the same issues with the 6.8 and reamers problems almost killed the 6.8. This bad V reamer problem will cause a lot of trouble for a lot of people and drag several companies names through the mud when it may not be the fault of the barrel seller, producer or maker even though the maker should have checked the reamer before chambering any barrels. IMO we need to get out front of this and fix the reamer problem and let everyone know THAT IS where the problem lies before everyone starts talking about what a **** cartridge the Valkyrie is.
If you are a barrel producer or manufacturer check your chamber against the SAAMI print.
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What's the indifference between here^^^^.......
.........and here ^^^^^
Did you want to clarify why the above was hilarious or are we just having a miscommunication?
The OG recce's are great. Alot of people have good clones out there, but one guy on ARFCOM has the most correct one i've seen, Milspec NF 2.5-10x32(only one i've seen), prototype wilcox LRF mount, Old marking FF RAS, the works. All of them say the lilja barrels shoot lights out.
I've got one of the chopped 15.something inch ones profiled for the ops can in progress at the moment.
Given that I've had Noveske, V7, and Douglas barrels shoot well along with some stellar Kreigers and Bartleins. Had some outstanding Colt NM barrels along with some very nice HK and Hodge/FN CHF chrome lined. Seems to me that how well is more important than how.
If you're all about the longevity in stainless, roll with a Bartlein blank as their hardness is at the top along with Noveske/V7.
I also suspect (and I know the internet will tell me if I'm wrong) that the chamber dimensions and ammo selection is also more important.
Centurion/Douglas uses whatever the Crane spec is....super secret squirrel Mk12 shit
Noveske chambers for Mk262 but with some relief for full-auto reliability
V7 is close to Noveske but leaves the above's FA tolerance tighter
You've got your Wylde, CLE, and Craddock has one kinda in between if my conversaion with him is correct
You can look at chamber dimensions until you're blue in the face.
If I had my way, I'd rock a Bartlein blank finished to V7 profile specs (which is just an ounce or 2 less than Noveske) to either the Centurion/Crane or Noveske chamber spec. And gas it conservatively...
If you're all about the longevity in stainless, roll with a Bartlein blank as their hardness is at the top along with Noveske/V7.
I also suspect (and I know the internet will tell me if I'm wrong) that the chamber dimensions and ammo selection is also more important.
Centurion/Douglas uses whatever the Crane spec is....super secret squirrel Mk12 shit
Noveske chambers for Mk262 but with some relief for full-auto reliability
V7 is close to Noveske but leaves the above's FA tolerance tighter
You've got your Wylde, CLE, and Craddock has one kinda in between if my conversaion with him is correct
You can look at chamber dimensions until you're blue in the face.
If I had my way, I'd rock a Bartlein blank finished to V7 profile specs (which is just an ounce or 2 less than Noveske) to either the Centurion/Crane or Noveske chamber spec. And gas it conservatively...
Sorry for the derail, WOA would get the nod over WC IMO. I would not go stainless for a duty/combat rifle or to do mag dumps but if more like an accuracy barrel stainless will last long enough.
