FBI Sniper Rifles

[RIGREG]

Which one of you gents was faster on the checkout this morning?

View attachment 8486720

Guilty!

I just ordered a BO M4 trigger guard this week for a future, undetermined build, and I’m waiting to pick up a 40X 7.62 Repeater. So, that may come together with this stock, we’ll see. T10 or T16 on Redfield base and rings for optic. I was hoping for an A4 or A5, but this morning’s were all M5 DBM. I’m stuck on a traditional vintage look for my Model 700 builds. I don’t want to expand into DBM.

I’m hoping to score an Urban Smear M3A w/ adjustable cheek for an LRB M14 with a stainless barrel I’ve got.

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

It's like all the old, "This vs. That" arguments about caliber. The 6.5 has plenty of energy to do what it needs as far as terminal performance. It doesn't really shine until well past the 'safety' range of law enforcement. The .308 works fine out to that range and some beyond. So changing to something that works better at a distance you can't use it to is pointless.

I agree with that, Sandwarrior. And the .308 Win. used their service-time to prove their efficiency as LE-Ammo in different places. Reading a comparison of this two calibers in a - good - guns-magazine was interesting, really. But in the end - what of the adavantage of the 6,5 Cr. is feasible ?..

 

[sandwarrior]

I agree with that, Sandwarrior. And the .308 Win. used their service-time to prove their efficiency as LE-Ammo in different places. Reading a comparison of this two calibers in a - good - guns-magazine was interesting, really. But in the end - what of the adavantage of the 6,5 Cr. is feasible ?..

Exactly. Where the 6.5 Creedmoor has an advantage, it can't be used at.

 

[03duce]

I have had this urban Camo stock since the late 80's early 90's if memory serves me correct.
It fits a Remington 700 action.
I stumbled upon this section as was wonderingbif this was the same stock used on the Remington FBI rifles.

 

[mk13_collector]

Just ordered a HRT rifle from GA Precision. A few questions someone here can hopefully shed some light on:


Flash Hider
I originally wanted the long SF FA flash hider. But folks at GA Precision said recent batch of guns they sent to FBI has SOCOM flash hiders. And most operators don't run cans given it affects accuracy (otherwise 0.25 MOA which is insane).

I was first and foremost shocked to hear FBI still orders this gun. With that said, although I have no reason to doubt what GAP told us. But there is close to no reference pic of GAP FBI HRT rifle in the wild. I later found out even the one picture that gave me idea to run FA flash hider was from GAP themselves. A few reference pictures of FBI bolt guns that look alike (unsure if they are GAP rifles) do not have flash hiders.

Can anyone share some pictures of the GAP rifle, if there is any at all? I guess since my order is already placed, I'm getting a sick 0.25 MOA gun regardless and I can run my 762RC2 on it. But I am still very very curious.

Scope & Ring
What scope did the FBI run with this gun? I am under the impression that this gun is basically a ripped off M40A5. And there are FBI HRT marked M8541. I am thinking about just mark one of my M8541 FBI-HRT and run it on the gun. But again, cannot get concrete without many reference pictures.

Hopefully someone here can share some knowledge! Although I bought this gun as a 0.25 MOA 308 gun to shoot, would still be awesome to make it as clone correct as I can to add to my clone collection.

 

[j-huskey]

Paging @Skunk

@Terry Cross

 

[Skunk]

Paging @Skunk

@Terry Cross

I’ll try to walk down the hill sometime this week and see what the deal is.

AFAIK, HRT hasn’t touched or used the GAP rifles in probably ten years. They never really used them because the bolts were tight and sticky. According to them…. They moved to Surgeon rifles pretty quickly after the purchase from GAP.

I am pretty sure they all had the FA762 brake on them. The ones I’ve fired did.

I also remember this rifle having Schmidt 4-16x50’s. I don’t know what the 3-12’s were on….probably OBR’s.

They’re shooting 6.5 Creedmoor out of several different platforms now. Mostly gassers.

 

[Fig]

 

[Terry Cross]

They’re shooting 6.5 Creedmoor out of several different platforms now. Mostly gassers.

Some project managers...... LOL.

 

[Terry Cross]

And most operators don't run cans given it affects accuracy (otherwise 0.25 MOA which is insane).

Huh?

What?

 

[mk13_collector]

I’ll try to walk down the hill sometime this week and see what the deal is.

AFAIK, HRT hasn’t touched or used the GAP rifles in probably ten years. They never really used them because the bolts were tight and sticky. According to them…. They moved to Surgeon rifles pretty quickly after the purchase from GAP.

I am pretty sure they all had the FA762 brake on them. The ones I’ve fired did.

I also remember this rifle having Schmidt 4-16x50’s. I don’t know what the 3-12’s were on….probably OBR’s.

They’re shooting 6.5 Creedmoor out of several different platforms now. Mostly gassers.

If it's 10 years ago, it's still possible for it to run SOCOM brake. But curious to see some pictures or more concrete info...

Were the guns you shot also in 6.5 instead of 308? I thought they ordered 308 guns from GAP...

 

[mk13_collector]

Huh?

What?

That's what I was told. I've only experienced POI shifts with cans but no noticeable group sizing change I can remember...

 

[Skunk]

If it's 10 years ago, it's still possible for it to run SOCOM brake. But curious to see some pictures or more concrete info...

Were the guns you shot also in 6.5 instead of 308? I thought they ordered 308 guns from GAP...

I’ve only seen the FA762 adapters and SiCo Omega suppressors on HRT sniper rifles. Obviously not on the same rifles…

The GAP guns were 308.

I won’t be posting pics from inside the HRT gun cage.

 

[Stevo86]

I’ve only seen the FA762 adapters and SiCo Omega suppressors on HRT sniper rifles. Obviously not on the same rifles…

The GAP guns were 308.

I won’t be posting pics from inside the HRT gun cage.

Cmon mane…..

 

[Skunk]

Cmon mane…..

I don’t need nunna yo lip!

 

[mk13_collector]

I’ve only seen the FA762 adapters and SiCo Omega suppressors on HRT sniper rifles. Obviously not on the same rifles…

The GAP guns were 308.

I won’t be posting pics from inside the HRT gun cage.

I see. Thanks for the reply!

I guess SiCo suppressors are correct, is it a Omega 300? I guess a SiCo brake would also be kosher? Or was it direct thread?

 

[Skunk]

I see. Thanks for the reply!

I guess SiCo suppressors are correct, is it an Omega 300? I guess a SiCo brake would also be kosher? Or was it direct thread?

I’m really not familiar with that suppressor.

 

[mark caracci]

I remember FBI HRT "counter-snipers" in my 1/88 Quantico Sniper Instructor class and they were using M40a1s with OGA Unertl 10x "sniper-10x" marked scopes. If I remember right, we also had Canadian SOF snipers who were about to get the "C" Unertl 10x scopes. Sorry it was looong ago.

 

[RIGREG]

This is still up at McMillan. It was in today’s drop. I don’t know where it fits in this chronology, but it looks like what GAP uses for their Templar HRT Rifles, except it’s REM 700 SA.

Greg

 

[MikeMiller]

That is my favorite stock for all around SA rifle use I don’t remember what stock used on those rifles.

 

[Ghogs Nightmare]

Already been said, but very interesting read..thanks all.

So question and hopefully it doesn't sound to dumb, what is the thought with the blue smear (urban) camo. A skyline sort of thing or?

Also reference 'current holster' I've been told Comptac is working on variant for the attached agency. A low profile with retention and
with a tlr7 size light as well as optic. As of Mayish last year it was still being worked on but that is the last I checked on it. The 'proto' I
looked at was decent but was still being worked on.

 

[Skunk]

Already been said, but very interesting read..thanks all.

So question and hopefully it doesn't sound to dumb, what is the thought with the blue smear (urban) camo. A skyline sort of thing or?

Also reference 'current holster' I've been told Comptac is working on variant for the attached agency. A low profile with retention and
with a tlr7 size light as well as optic. As of Mayish last year it was still being worked on but that is the last I checked on it. The 'proto' I
looked at was decent but was still being worked on.

It was way before my time, but I think the blue/grey/black Urban Camo was just the tacticool thing of the 80’s.

As for holsters, the Academy is currently giving New Agents a Tenicor holster for the 19M/RMR-HD/TLR7A. It has no active retention and is really uncomfortable out of the package.

 

[bildoe308]

Definitely Tacticool

 

[shoobe01]

...So question and hopefully it doesn't sound to dumb, what is the thought with the blue smear (urban) camo. A skyline sort of thing or?

Blue was the trend then for the first big push to "urban" camo. It was an attempt to solve the color issue vs what else they have available.

Woodland et al is warm toned. Reds and yellows. Yes, if you consider the actual hue, dirt browns are red-toned, grassy or desert colors are yellow toned.

Concrete, asphalt, and metals, are cool and the thinking is that this is what makes conventional camo stick out in urban environments. This esp took hold as e.g. euro cities rebuilt after the war and became less brick, fewer green spaces and trees in the late mid-century, and more concrete and pavement.

So instead of just going cool gray, they went all the way to something visibly blue. I think there was some size-of-target science around it, or that we're shadowed from folks, but it doesn't quite work which is why it's old now. Even can be seen in the quite blue gray of the weird "digital" camo the Brits used for their Berlin det. Some of these blue schemes did as this FV432, tried to split the difference, blue and brown.

Yes, some either aren't good at colors, or just apparently thought that if blue is good, MORE BLUE must be better, hence the dark and very saturated on the rifle above.

 

[RTESantaFe]

It was way before my time, but I think the blue/grey/black Urban Camo was just the tacticool thing of the 80’s.

As for holsters, the Academy is currently giving New Agents a Tenicor holster for the 19M/RMR-HD/TLR7A. It has no active retention and is really uncomfortable out of the package.

@Skunk, somewhere in the Quantico archives is the study conducted way back in the day on camo patterns in urban environments. It went deep into pattern recognition, and other specific criteria related to weapon/shooter concealment. I think the Bureau was or if not the first, an early adoptee of Urban Camo pattern on their long guns.
At about the same time, the Firearms Unit conducted another in depth study of barrel service life in the 308 issued SWAT rigs. This was pre-HRT.

 

[Skunk]

HRT was born in ‘83, so we’re talking 40-some yrs ago. I’m not sure what Ballistic Research or Firearms Training Unit (current titles) were called back then. Either way, I’ll take a stroll over to the Academy library tomorrow and poke around…

 

[j-huskey]

My pet dinosaur had his 3rd birthday back then, in them dark ages... I don't think Brother Skunk was even born near then.....

 

[Skunk]

My pet dinosaur had his 3rd birthday back then, in them dark ages... I don't think Brother Skunk was even born near then.....

You’re so kind!

 

[Calfed]

HRT was born in ‘83, so we’re talking 40-some yrs ago. I’m not sure what Ballistic Research or Firearms Training Unit (current titles) were called back then. Either way, I’ll take a stroll over to the Academy library tomorrow and poke around…

Are you at Quantico now?

 

[Calfed]

Are you at Quantico now?

Is the old gun cleaning room still downstairs next to old gun vault?

 

[Skunk]

Is the old gun cleaning room still downstairs next to old gun vault?

It is, but DEA uses that now. FBI FTU has a whole new facility (maybe 10yrs) over across the street, right in front of the ranges.

I need to add my name to the Possible Club wall.

 

[kft101]

It is, but DEA uses that now. FBI FTU has a whole new facility (maybe 10yrs) over across the street, right in front of the ranges.

But what’s the color of the boathouse at Hereford?

 

[RTESantaFe]

HRT was born in ‘83, so we’re talking 40-some yrs ago. I’m not sure what Ballistic Research or Firearms Training Unit (current titles) were called back then. Either way, I’ll take a stroll over to the Academy library tomorrow and poke around…

If it helps your search, the study on 308 barrel service life was contained in a red jacket and something like 80 pages long. It was actually a cool read and conducted with scientific like detail. I kept a copy of it for years. Yeah, 40 plus fricken years ago is right. Many of the rigs in field offices then had pre64 Win actions along with the Remington’s.
A young pup then and semi old dog now.

 

[Calfed]

It is, but DEA uses that now. FBI FTU has a whole new facility (maybe 10yrs) over across the street, right in front of the ranges.

I need to add my name to the Possible Club wall.

Congratulations. What course of fire do they require for admission to the Possible Club?

Say if you get a chance, can you see if they still have the Remington .30 caliber rifle and the Winchester .351 rifle displayed on the wall of the cleaning room? If so, would you mind posting pics of same?

 

[Skunk]

Congratulations. What course of fire do they require for admission to the Possible Club?

Say if you get a chance, can you see if they still have the Remington .30 caliber rifle and the Winchester .351 rifle displayed on the wall of the cleaning room? If so, would you mind posting pics of same?

Oh, when I say I need to add my name to the wall, I mean I need to shoot/pass that course and then add my name. I think it’s called the Combat Pistol Course? I’m not very familiar with it. Maybe I’ll get some time and give it a shot in the next couple weeks.

I’ll see what I can find over there tomorrow.

 

[Buford Boone]

The rate at which the Possible Club grew declined significantly when the FBI moved from teaching precision shooting to teaching speed shooting.

If you want a good idea of how slowly it has filled, go look at the board and find my name, JB BOONE. I shot it in October of 1988.

 

[Skunk]

 

[Calfed]

The rate at which the Possible Club grew declined significantly when the FBI moved from teaching precision shooting to teaching speed shooting.

If you want a good idea of how slowly it has filled, go look at the board and find my name, JB BOONE. I shot it in October of 1988.

Wondered what course of fire they use now for membership.

 

[Skunk]

Went over to the old cleaning room today. There is no weapon display in there, just DEA’s weapon schematics, etc. I’m not sure I remember a weapon display when I came through the Academy on 2011… If I were to guess, I’d say those rifles probably went back over to the Lab’s/Toolmarks Unit’s display. And, I can go see/photo those sometime.

Buford, I saw your name on the board today, J.B. Boone III. Not far below L.T. Horiuchi, which I’d never noticed before. There are several notable names on there. All the folks I know personally are on the last two rows…

 

[Calfed]

Went over to the old cleaning room today. There is no weapon display in there, just DEA’s weapon schematics, etc. I’m not sure I remember a weapon display when I came through the Academy on 2011… If I were to guess, I’d say those rifles probably went back over to the Lab’s/Toolmarks Unit’s display. And, I can go see/photo those sometime.

Buford, I saw your name on the board today, J.B. Boone III. Not far below L.T. Horiuchi, which I’d never noticed before. There are several notable names on there. All the folks I know personally are on the last two rows…

Thanks, Skunk

I guess a few things have changed in the last 45 years...

 

[Buford Boone]

Went over to the old cleaning room today. There is no weapon display in there, just DEA’s weapon schematics, etc. I’m not sure I remember a weapon display when I came through the Academy on 2011… If I were to guess, I’d say those rifles probably went back over to the Lab’s/Toolmarks Unit’s display. And, I can go see/photo those sometime.

Buford, I saw your name on the board today, J.B. Boone III. Not far below L.T. Horiuchi, which I’d never noticed before. There are several notable names on there. All the folks I know personally are on the last two rows…

The weapons display was removed a long time before you went thru the Academy. If I had to guess, I'd say about 2,000. That display attracted a lot of attention and many visitors would linger in the gun cleaning room to view it.

There were a few NDs in that room and it was decided that additional "traffic" was not desired. The wall where it used to be was turned into a "Safety Wall". I designed the modification to make the wall "safe". It passed the test at least once, that I know of.

 

[Skunk]

The weapons display was removed a long time before you went thru the Academy. If I had to guess, I'd say about 2,000. That display attracted a lot of attention and many visitors would linger in the gun cleaning room to view it.

There were a few NDs in that room and it was decided that additional "traffic" was not desired. The wall where it used to be was turned into a "Safety Wall". I designed the modification to make the wall "safe". It passed the test at least once, that I know of.

Haha. Yep, I think some of the dimples in the Safety Wall have been pointed out to me.

 

[Buford Boone]

Haha. Yep, I think some of the dimples in the Safety Wall have been pointed out to me.

Pictures, artwork, etc., that's how some were concealed.

 

[RTESantaFe]

@Skunk, is the Quarter Minute Club still hanging around somewhere too?

 

[Skunk]

@Skunk, is the Quarter Minute Club still hanging around somewhere too?

There’s a Quarter Inch Club plaque hanging down at HRT. Their sniper qual has a 200yd stage, so it would actually be 1/8 MOA.

 

[RTESantaFe]

Makes sense it was moved too. Used to be on the wall outside the cleaning room.

 

[Ghogs Nightmare]

Thanks for the blue answer, I think urban is the only acu actually does almost good depending on concrete/couchs in the area.

On the dimple topic it's funny how 'wall dimples' are 'character' in some locations.

 

[Coejro]

Thought these were pretty cool. Urban camo smear being used in 2016. Middle shooter.

Source: https://www.dvidshub.net/image/3473142/fbi-sniper-training-fort-mccoy

 

[RTESantaFe]

Happiness is: When you are getting paid to drive tacks. Great pics..

 

[epeet]

"The rate at which the Possible Club grew declined significantly when the FBI moved from teaching precision shooting to teaching speed shooting.

If you want a good idea of how slowly it has filled, go look at the board and find my name, JB BOONE. I shot it in October of 1988."

It declined because no one shot it, anywhere, at any level, across the FBI. We ran it one time in the field (I started in 2011), after looking it up to figure out what it was, across thirteen years in multiple field offices. Never saw it shot at the academy. Never shot it at FI school. To your point, I think that people would generally have performed worse, up until RDS on the 19. Other than the weak hand shooting, I think it would be quite a bit easier now. Same for the old SWAT qual course, which was a bear on a 1911, and a joke on the 17 and RDS 19.

As FTU abdicated its role in directing firearms training in the field, and, firearms training in general, you had a lot of cultural casualties, such as the Possible course. The course SHOULD have been updated and redesigned when the last qual course came on board, and with the update to the newer targets, etc, etc. But that would assume we had any gun guys teaching gun skills, which isn't really a thing anymore, or a culture of firearms performance, also not a thing.