Advanced Marksmanship Feedback on my shooting position, please?

[JimGnitecki]

I got a friend to take some photos of me shooting the other day, as I wanted to get some feedback here on whether or not I am positioned correctly for best results:

I was wondering, for example, if my upper body is rotated clockwise too much, or whether this degree of wrap around the rifle is desirable.

Feedback would be appreciated.

I have been finding that I shoot my TRG 338 Lapua better than I shoot the LMT MWSE in those photos. Since I sporadically get really good groups with the LMT, I am speculating that something in my position or technique is wrong or inconsistent.

I do preload the bipod (you can see it in the photos).

I tuck into my shoulder at what feels like the correct spot, but find the ergonomics of the LMT just don't fit me quite as well as the TRG does. Just a result of different body dimensions?

I find it hard with ANY AR rifle to get my eye down to the correct spot behind the scope, without running my cheekbone hard into the cheek rest. Hence the high scope position you see here. The SAPR "flip away" cheek riser you see is there for my friend to use when HE fires the rifle, as without it, the height from cheekpiece to scope is too HIGH for him.

I THINK I am holding the pistol grip at the right height position, since the trigger finger is horizontal.

My head seems to be as level as it needs to be.

Observations?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Hey guys, the position can't possibly be perfect . . .

if it were, all the groups would be both good and consistently so . . .

Jim G

 

[vinsonr]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Jim, I was to your right when you got over to the long range side that day. As far as your position, I think most on here focus on prone positions and not from a bench. Personally I dislike those there at BotW as I tend to fight to find a comfortable position and then pocket the rifle in my shoulder oddly and feel discomfort quickly.

I'll be picking up a mat and going prone or perhaps a tripod as well and working from those positions.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

When I shoot from the bench I still try to get my shoulders square to the bore. It's really hard on a bench like that. At my home range, the benches are wood and I turn them around so I have the wide part for my elbows - doesn't look like you have that option.

Note- I'm no expert at this either so what I put below is my interpretation of what I've read on here and learned other places. Confirm for yourself before taking anything I say as the final word on trigger position.
As far as the trigger - you want to be on with just the pad of the finger and the first two sections of your finger should make a straight line perpendicular to the bore. Then your finger should make a 90 degree bend to the rear at the second joint. Forget about gripping the pistol grip and focus on the finger placement.

If you haven't signed up for the online training, it's worth it's weight in gold. There is at least one lesson dedicated to trigger. And a few that get into the specifics of trigger in a semi auto.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Thanks, Vinson & Sled! I am a newbie to precision rifle, so any feedback is appreciated!

I have previously mentioned in a different thread that viewing the online training doesn't work for me because of the wi-fi congestion on our communal RV resort wi-fi system. I have trouble viewing even videoclips that are just a few minutes in length. They pause a LOT.

Jim G

 

[DCR]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Frank has some good thoughts on shooting from the bench.

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[JuniperEyes]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

A few things I see...

Chair is too low causing you to sit up too straight for a gas gun on a bipod.

Scope mounts are too high causing poor cheek weld.

That spacer on the pistol grip causes your hand to be positioned too far away from the trigger and results in poor trigger manipulation.

Bipod is too high.

And that is just from pitchers. A quality precision rifle class would be well worth the price.

Nice looking rifle by the way...

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hang-fire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A few things I see...

Chair is too low causing you to sit up too straight for a gas gun on a bipod.

Scope mounts are too high causing poor cheek weld.

That spacer on the pistol grip causes your hand to be positioned too far away from the trigger and results in poor trigger manipulation.

Bipod is too high.


And that is just from pitchers. A quality precision rifle class would be well worth the price.

Nice looking rifle by the way...

</div></div>

So a higher chair, necessitating more forward lean, would be an advantage? Interesting. Is the idea that leaning more into the rifle helps put more body weight on it to stabilize it further for aim and against recoil?

The high scope position is unavoidable for me. When I run it even 1/2 inch lower, my cheekbone hits the cheekpiece before I can get my eye in alignment with the scope. This has always been an issue for me with AR type rifles.

There is no spacer on the pistol grip - or at least not anything I have added. The rifle is factory stock in that area.

The bipod remark is interesting, because we had it lower before these photos were taken, and both me and my friend's shooting improved when we raised it one click. Both of us noticed that it easier to tuck in and get a good scope picture and weld with the rifle. I think this is somewhat dependent upon the body dimensions of the shooter.

I am finding this whole topic of positioning VERY interesting.

I will be checking out that clip of Frank, but have to run out to the protection of a nearby mall parking garage, as there is a really intense series of storms with tornadoes approaching us, expected to arrive within 1/2 hour or so.

Jim G

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I am finding this whole topic of positioning VERY interesting.

Jim G </div></div>

Jim,
You need to spend some more qaulity time with your wife.

Or reloading, is that factory ammo I see on the bench?

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Jim,
You need to spend some more qaulity time with your wife.

Or reloading, is that factory ammo I see on the bench? </div></div>

There is a reason that that (rarely seen on MY shooting bench) factory ammo is there on this day: I was tutoring a friend on shooting (he is even less experienced than I am on precision rifle shooting), and I figured using up my 25 rounds per hour production rate hand loads would be a waste on a newbie shooter.

Jim G

p.s. my wife agrees with you on the other thing. We are sitting at a Panera restaurant, waiting for the storms to pass, and she forgot to bring any books, so I am the entertainment by default, and she wants attention now!

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

I just played Frank's video (Panera has GOOD wi-fi!). Nice. He does a good job of explaining why the forward "aggressive" posture is needed.

Jim G

 

[BOL556]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Shooting position looks fine. Just curious if you have the bipos locked in place. I found while shooting my FN SPR that if the bipods were locked tight my shoots were all over the place. Loosened the pods and everything is going where it should go.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

The bipod is not tightened down too much. It enables fairly easy tilt with just enough friction that it holds its position without requiring lots of attention.

Forward pressure is enough to take out the slack, and not much more. Even with the carpet there to prevent major skidding, the carpet sample itself slides on the concrete if too much pressure is applied. Good training for control of that bipod pressure!

Jim G

 

[JuniperEyes]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hang-fire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A few things I see...

Chair is too low causing you to sit up too straight for a gas gun on a bipod.

Scope mounts are too high causing poor cheek weld.

That spacer on the pistol grip causes your hand to be positioned too far away from the trigger and results in poor trigger manipulation.

Bipod is too high.


And that is just from pitchers. A quality precision rifle class would be well worth the price.

Nice looking rifle by the way...

</div></div>

So a higher chair, necessitating more forward lean, would be an advantage? Interesting. Is the idea that leaning more into the rifle helps put more body weight on it to stabilize it further for aim and against recoil?

The high scope position is unavoidable for me. When I run it even 1/2 inch lower, my cheekbone hits the cheekpiece before I can get my eye in alignment with the scope. This has always been an issue for me with AR type rifles.

There is no spacer on the pistol grip - or at least not anything I have added. The rifle is factory stock in that area.

The bipod remark is interesting, because we had it lower before these photos were taken, and both me and my friend's shooting improved when we raised it one click. Both of us noticed that it easier to tuck in and get a good scope picture and weld with the rifle. I think this is somewhat dependent upon the body dimensions of the shooter.

I am finding this whole topic of positioning VERY interesting.

I will be checking out that clip of Frank, but have to run out to the protection of a nearby mall parking garage, as there is a really intense series of storms with tornadoes approaching us, expected to arrive within 1/2 hour or so.

Jim G</div></div>


Cool

Have fun and be safe

Glenn

 

[vinsonr]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Jim, I think the main issue we face on those benches is the inability to square up to the rifle. Having to have your offhand shoulder way out forward in order to rest the elbow on the bench throws everything else off. The benches force you to shoot in the pocket as there is not enough room in any other position to rest your elbows. Like I said, I'm going to start shooting prone out there and just ordered a mat to use for that purpose.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Vinson: I have a mat, so maybe I should try that next.

Jim G

 

[512BPG]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Best of the West! my "local" long range range now. Lotta snipershide folks out there?

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 512BPG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Best of the West! my "local" long range range now. Lotta snipershide folks out there? </div></div>

I don't know. We don't wear Snipershide badges!

Jim G

 

[OneShotJim]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Thanks for sharing. That's a very helpful video!

 

[512BPG]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 512BPG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Best of the West! my "local" long range range now. Lotta snipershide folks out there? </div></div>

I don't know. We don't wear Snipershide badges!

Jim G </div></div>

why not!? it should be hanging right next to your CHL Badge!

 

[Apex Motorsports]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Personally I actually try NOT to shoot from a bench. But your body position from the top could benefit from your torso being clocked about an hour CCW. But I would suggest positional shooting practice. Practice shooting from prone, keeping your body in line with the recoil of the rifle etc. Also getting into a good sitting and standing position. Both supported and unsupported.

Hope this helps.

 

[vinsonr]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 512BPG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Best of the West! my "local" long range range now. Lotta snipershide folks out there? </div></div>

Jim, you and I make at least 3. I was thinking about how there needs to be some long range matches out there. Would you guys be interested in doing some small competition type stuff such as 'shooting golf' where you count up your misses? It would just be a specific course of fire and you shoot until you hit for each target. The guy with the lowest score wins.

 

[vinsonr]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 512BPG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Best of the West! my "local" long range range now. Lotta snipershide folks out there? </div></div>

I don't know. We don't wear Snipershide badges!

Jim G </div></div>

I actually have one of them, I'll wear it next time and see if anyone asks about it.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 512BPG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Best of the West! my "local" long range range now. Lotta snipershide folks out there? </div></div>

Jim, you and I make at least 3. I was thinking about how there needs to be some long range matches out there. Would you guys be interested in doing some small competition type stuff such as 'shooting golf' where you count up your misses? It would just be a specific course of fire and you shoot until you hit for each target. The guy with the lowest score wins. </div></div>

I would be interested! However, remember that there are a veyr limited number of targets at anything beyond 100 yards - typically only 4 or so, and we would be sharign the rnage with all other shooters that happen to be there. That range gets really busy on weekends, and on weekdays, most of us work. We'd need one person strictly to monitor any other shotoers and let our shooter know when they are NOT shooting. Of course, that could add another interesting element to the competition: you have to be ready to shoot, wait for our "monitor" to say "the target is yours to shoot", and aim and fire before anyone else resumes shooting!

A much easier scenario to manage would be shooting the "dot drill" at 100 yards (there are plenty of shooting positions and targets at 100 yards). The winner would be the one with the fewest misses for his entire sheet of dots. The dots are, I believe, one half inch in diameter, so the skill required is FAR from trivial when you are firing even a rifle capable of 1/2 MOA.

Jim G

 

[512BPG]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 512BPG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Best of the West! my "local" long range range now. Lotta snipershide folks out there? </div></div>

Jim, you and I make at least 3. I was thinking about how there needs to be some long range matches out there. Would you guys be interested in doing some small competition type stuff such as 'shooting golf' where you count up your misses? It would just be a specific course of fire and you shoot until you hit for each target. The guy with the lowest score wins. </div></div>

I would be interested! However, remember that there are a veyr limited number of targets at anything beyond 100 yards - typically only 4 or so, and we would be sharign the rnage with all other shooters that happen to be there. That range gets really busy on weekends, and on weekdays, most of us work. We'd need one person strictly to monitor any other shotoers and let our shooter know when they are NOT shooting. Of course, that could add another interesting element to the competition: you have to be ready to shoot, wait for our "monitor" to say "the target is yours to shoot", and aim and fire before anyone else resumes shooting!

A much easier scenario to manage would be shooting the "dot drill" at 100 yards (there are plenty of shooting positions and targets at 100 yards). The winner would be the one with the fewest misses for his entire sheet of dots. The dots are, I believe, one half inch in diameter, so the skill required is FAR from trivial when you are firing even a rifle capable of 1/2 MOA.

Jim G </div></div>

are you saying we cant take out each target one after another if others are there? damn!

ha.

id be interested in checking something like this out if im around. im newer to long range shooting and im still in the process of getting data and working up a load on my newly barrel chopped lr 308 but im up for shooting/discussing/learning if yall are out there.

what kind of percentage are you guys getting for shots on target out there for 750 and 1000?

 

[protocol]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Oh man... Any less than 99 percent hits and I sidearm my bolt towards the 50 yard benches!

Not really, but it's random. I personally get very frustrated at anything less than 75 percent since it's a known-distance range. Logically, I strive for 100 percent : )

Best of the West has some "fun" winds to play with. Some days it's more predictable and manageable than others (mirage reading if it's available). The tricky part of BotW is that the berm that separates the action pistol range from the 1000 and 750 yard ranges is actually cutting a bit of your wind down out to around 250/300 yards (for 11 o'clock to 7 o'clock winds). I roughly chop 20 percent off of a wind reading and see what that gives me.

I mentioned this to one of the patrons there who is quite knowledgeable on many fronts and he agreed, but didn't seem overly concerned. This is because he gauges wind not only with visual artifacts (flags, grass, etc.) but also with mirage at the crest of the trajectory arc. The trajectory for popular medium-charged 300g .338 LM is well over the berm, and provides the best wind sampling for a majority of the flight time.

It definitely helped me tighten up quite a bit in 15-20 MPH switching winds, with the help of my spotting scope on very high power (75x).

I shoot with the Jim (OP) quite a bit, and I totally agree with the comments about the benches there. They are a bit high, and getting a square position behind the bench is difficult because your legs end up in awkward, muscle-tensioned positions. It can be managed, but it does affect my follow-through if I don't keep in-check. Not using the bipod on those benches is one option because you can get a bit closer to the edge of the bench in the front and achieve a better shoulder-weld.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Jim,

Notice the difference in the shape of the bench that Frank is using in that video. The bench you are on in your pics won't allow you to get that kind of position. I'm not sure what else is available at your range? But shooting prone would certainly allow you to get straight behind the rifle with your shoulders square.

For a while I shot at a range that had benches similar to what you are using. I got a piece of 3/4 plywood, cut to be about 3ft long and 1 ft wide. I used some long C-clamps to attach it to the back of the bench so that the very back of the bench was now 3ft wide. I'll admit, it wasn't super solid (but if you wanted you could make it stiffer). But, it allowed me to square my shoulders to the rifle and have my elbows supported. Just an idea if you are stuck to using those benches.

I prefer to use prone shooting to work on fundamentals. I use the bench and the chairs for supported positional practice - use them like barricades.

In any of the videos you do watch of Jacob and Frank, watch their hand/trigger finger position. They may not talk about it in every video, but they tend to do it right every time.

There are a few rifle schools in TX. I know it's a big state, but you are a lot closer to them than I am. It might be worth while to attend a class. It really helps to get real time feedback on what you are doing.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

I'm wonderin' how much meaningful feedback is possible here without the OP also posting a picture of his groups. Usually, I watch the shooter for obvious errors in the position; yet, if the shooter is getting the job done who am I to say the position is wrong. But, since the group will have a corollary to the position, and proper analysis of the group will reveal what factors of the position may need to be addressed, I think we might want to see the group before rendering judgement.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

Jim,

When you have a good wifi connection, go back to the main Snipers Hide page (not in the forum). Frank has a Trigger School trailer on there. It's not the full lesson, but it should get you started on your trigger finger position.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think we might want to see the group before rendering judgement. </div></div>

My friend did most of the firing that day since is a newbie, and although I am only one step above a newbie, I agreed to show him what I do know.

I fired only 2 3-shot groups that day as a result. One was about 1/2 inch, and the other was a surprisingly good 0.28 inch.

But, my issue is CONSISTENCY. Sometimes they are great, while other times they run one inch. I am sure it is ME, not the rifle or the ammo.

Jim G

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

But, my issue is CONSISTENCY. Sometimes they are great, while other times they run one inch. I am sure it is ME, not the rifle or the ammo.

</div></div>

Beginning with the fact that the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed, not hitting where aimed, is always about poor sight alignment, bad trigger control, and, unless the rifle is broken, about the shooter not making his relationship with the gun and ground consistent between shots. This assumes of course that the shooter did however properly adjust his sights to counter for the effects of gravity, drag, temp, and wind.

Making the position consistent requires development of motor memory. Yet, just being cognisant of the elements and factors of a steady position can hasten consistency, since consistency can be sensed from a position built from bone and artificial support, where relaxation replaces muscular tension.

Do you know the 3 elements of a steady position? Do you know the 5 factors of a steady position? Without knowledge of these things attempting to get a consistent position from Internet advice or from someone who knows barely more than you do amounts to nothing more than a monkey see monkey do exercise. You might get down the road a little bit with it but you are not likely to reach your destination with so many loose parts breaking you down all the time.

Find a mentor or shooting coach who can help get you off to a good start. Look for someone who actually can show you how to do it, someone who is able to help you with shooter/target analysis.

BTW, your own analysis of what you think you're doing wrong is faulty. Your problems began with your butt to shoulder position being made by first shouldering the rifle and then bringing the head to the stock rather than first bringing the stock to the head and thereafter shouldering the rifle. Complicating things is your stockweld. It should allow for a proper eyepiece/eyeball relationship when the full weight of the head is rested upon the stock. This appears not to be possible however with the adjustments you've made to your equipment. One more thing,for now, ya might want to replace the bipod with a sandbag support as it appears your position is about accommodation of the bipod rather than utilizing bone and artificial support to maintain sight alignment. The height of the position should be determined by your body rather than the adjustment range of the bipod. With a sandbag support, where the non firing hand is between handguards and bags, you will be able to get awesome control over the rifle without considerations demanded when using a bipod. This allows concentration on sight alignment and trigger control without distraction.

 

[Squid284]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

I would keep shoulders at 11 or 12 o'clock to the target. This puts your left elbow almost directly below centerline of the rifle. A shorter magazine (like 5 or 10 shot) helps get in a better position and make the ammo last longer. Try sitting more to the side of the bench more than behind it. It sounds stupid but having your torso and feet solidly locked or planted (like against the stool legs or the bench itself) helps with stability. Those style of chairs might make it difficult to get in a better position. Concrete benches tend to be solid, being lower on the bench tends to be more stable. Depending on your trigger pull... try to use the pad or last third of your finger to squeeze the trigger, not the knuckle joint, less chance of yawing the rifle. My $.02

 

[excess]

Re: Feedback on my shooting position, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Vinson: I have a mat, so maybe I should try that next.

Jim G</div></div>

If they will let you go prone there do it. Forget the bench. Nearly every practical aspect of precision tactical-type rifle shooting is done prone, or kneeling, offhand , etc.

And if you want a good investment, you're not far from Rifles Only. I did their Precision Semi Auto class last year - look for it!