Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

[BeEzLeBoSs]

I've got a neighbor in the the military I was talking to the other day and we got onto the subject of home defense and the 5.56, because I have a bushmaster AR-15. And I had said I wanted some hollow points or something that would at least move slower than a 55g fmj because I don't wanna hit another neighbor through a wall, due to penetration. He suggested filing down the tip making it flat a little bit. He claims it will greatly reduce speed and really increase stopping power but it's only good for semi close quarters. Sounds like it would work to me honestly, I was just curious to see if anyone had tried this or had experience with it maybe? And also if it would effect the rifle in anyway, cycling or anything, bc the bullet is now shorter and flat. He suggested maybe an 1/8" of the top or a lil less.

Thanks to anyone who knows anything about this! Lol

 

[Ledzep]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

You'll have slightly (negligible) higher muzzle velocity (same powder charge, less bullet mass), but it will shed energy quicker (not by enough that it will make much of a difference within 200yd). Probably won't be as accurate-- non-issue for within your house.

It will likely expand and/or fragment easier once it hits something solid, though.

Not likely to affect the rifle at all. Be warned, if you file away too much, you run the risk of shooting the lead/steel out of the copper jacket and leaving the jacket in the barrel. I think that would take an extreme case of filing away, but it's possible.

Personal opinion, too much effort for too little gain. Buy frangibles or light-weight jacketed hollow points.

 

[jd111404]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I dont know about that but I used to cast .223 bullets for reloading out of lead. I used the mold for tumble lubing and coated them with liquid alox which prevented the lead from melting in the barrel and then you put a brass gas check on the end of the bullet.

They were great for cheap reloads and I had a lot of fun making them. I wold just visit my tire shop for lead weights

I would assume the soft lead bullet would penetrate a lot less than jacketed.

I know this does not answer your question but it made me think about casting some again for a home defense application.

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

12 ga.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I would just cross drill the bullet. You can do it with a Vice Grip and a drill press.

Then spray them with Teflon.

 

[BeEzLeBoSs]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Where would I find either one of those? I can't even find standard hollow points.

 

[BeEzLeBoSs]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I could manage to do that as I have access to a drill press but good would that do? Where would you cross drill the bullet and why coating in Teflon. Sounds like that would not be good for a chrome lined bore and chamber.

 

[Conrad101st]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Buy varmint rounds. They basically explode on contact. Energy dump with minimal penetration.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

file down just the tip, just to see how it feels

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">file down just the tip, just to see how it feels </div></div>

Just the tip, just for a bit?

 

[B.Morgan]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Dangit!.....I took to much off. Now what do I do?

 

[CanSniper]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I would shy away from bullet modifications for saftey reasons. Could cause feeding problems. If a jacket were to catch a feed ramp and peel down preventing the bolt from fully moving into battery the end result could be catastrophic! there is already bullets designed to prevent over penetration.

 

[Rnd1]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

For anything used in home defense you should always purchase an off the shelf product. If you ever have to shoot someone there will probably be a lawyer wanting to sue you for what you had to do.

If what you loaded into your weapon was homemade (or even a standard reload) you will most likely be cast as evil, cruel, and twisted for using a customized, murderously effective design that caused excessive pain and suffering to the poor soul that you purposely set out to kill.

If you use something that a company has developed for home defense you are in the clear as far as what you used to stop an aggressor.

It's not worth the added risk to come up with your own "Man Stopper".

 

[fastman]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Really people...A lawyer would have a field-day with you if you were to alter a round even with good intentions. If your concern is with over penetration, use frangible rounds: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/363053/...rfire-box-of-50
Not to up-set any keyboard commandos but the Net is dangerous enough without silly advice like this.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BeEzLeBoSs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could manage to do that as I have access to a drill press but good would that do? Where would you cross drill the bullet and why coating in Teflon. Sounds like that would not be good for a chrome lined bore and chamber. </div></div>

Drilling the bore and chamber is optional; I'd start with just the bullet and see how that goes.

 

[BDHershey]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I think you give the 55gr FMJ too much credit.

It has been shown to penetrate less through barriers such as drywall and wall studs then standard defensive hollow point loads from pistols or buckshot form a shotgun.

The 55gr FMJ has a tendency to tumble and fragment when striking a target. This fragmentation is what can cause a catastrophic wound in soft tissue and limit penetration through barriers.

 

[mrhog]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 12 ga. </div></div>
^ what he said

 

[Militarybuilt]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 12 ga. </div></div>

Best answer yet.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Soft point for meat, bonded for glass, HPBT match for paper/steel

Home Defense

Shotgun = 2.75" low brass shells with #7.5 to #6 shot, High brass max, same shot.

Hand gun = Speer Gold Dot

Rifle = Iffy do to over penetration

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

good idea, discharging a 5.56 inside a building without ear pro, good way to go deaf quickly and permanently. use a good old 12 guage and don't customize your ammo, it looks way better in court and you'll be able to hear the prosecutors questions.
cheers.

 

[doc awesome]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">good idea, discharging a 5.56 inside a building without ear pro, good way to go deaf quickly and permanently. use a good old 12 guage and don't customize your ammo, it looks way better in court and you'll be able to hear the prosecutors questions.
cheers. </div></div>

12ga and .223 both have ~155db sound levels. Either one will damage your ear drums but still better than being dead.

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

Also, any bullet suitable for killing someone will go through drywall pretty easily. However, .223/5.56 have been shown to penetrate less drywall and fragment immediately upon hitting it. This is because it is moving so fast and a light bullet, heavier slower moving bullets, ie handgun rounds and 12ga, will blow through drywall like nothing.

 

[Hellbender]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

It's unsafe as most FMJ bullets are open BASE (ie the lead core is visible from the bottom of the bullet).

If you file off the tip, the lead core can squirt out the front and leave a brass jacket stuck in the barrel.

The next round may be a big surprise!

Always wear eye protection, as you may need it with this ammo mod!

 

[strat81]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Ammo.AR15.com.

Save the gimmicks for coffee time at the gun shop. Filing down the tip will not "greatly reduce speed". Get a chrono and check. Filing down the tip may cause feeding problems. There's also the potential liability issue with modified ammo.

If you are extremely concerned about overpenetration, as mentioned, use a frangible bullet or varmint bullet. Remember that these may not penetrate 12" in gelatin. If you want an easy, OTC solution towards that end, buy some Hornady V-Max.

Otherwise, there are plenty of other serviceable solutions, some better than others, including solid copper projectiles, heavy OTMs, softpoints marketed towards hunting, and even M193.

Just remember that anything strong enough to penetrate 12" in gelatin will sail through quite a bit of typical residential building material. That includes pistol ammo too.

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rnd1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For anything used in home defense you should always purchase an off the shelf product. If you ever have to shoot someone there will probably be a lawyer wanting to sue you for what you had to do.

If what you loaded into your weapon was homemade (or even a standard reload) you will most likely be cast as evil, cruel, and twisted for using a customized, murderously effective design that caused excessive pain and suffering to the poor soul that you purposely set out to kill.

If you use something that a company has developed for home defense you are in the clear as far as what you used to stop an aggressor.

It's not worth the added risk to come up with your own "Man Stopper".
</div></div>


Cite me one case where reloaded or modified ammunition has proven to been the cause for conviction in a self defense case.

Let me save you some time...not one case exists. Just like shooting someone in self defense with a Class 3 firearm or with a suppressor attached. Not an issue if you are allowed to legally own them in your state. A legal shoot is legal - period.

If a D.A. wants your butt they're going to come after you regardless. If your attorney is worth anything they can and will nullify any irrelevant B.S. like bullet, firearm or accessory choice.

More internet propagation of B.S.

 

[scotharr]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrhog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 12 ga. </div></div>
^ what he said </div></div>

What they all said. There are many reasons why a 12Ga is better than an AR.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BeEzLeBoSs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where would I find either one of those? I can't even find standard hollow points. </div></div>

Have you been to a gun store? thats where they are sold.

 

[pwc001]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mavrick10_2000</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rnd1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For anything used in home defense you should always purchase an off the shelf product. If you ever have to shoot someone there will probably be a lawyer wanting to sue you for what you had to do.

If what you loaded into your weapon was homemade (or even a standard reload) you will most likely be cast as evil, cruel, and twisted for using a customized, murderously effective design that caused excessive pain and suffering to the poor soul that you purposely set out to kill.

If you use something that a company has developed for home defense you are in the clear as far as what you used to stop an aggressor.

It's not worth the added risk to come up with your own "Man Stopper".
</div></div>


Cite me one case where reloaded or modified ammunition has proven to been the cause for conviction in a self defense case.

Let me save you some time...not one case exists. Just like shooting someone in self defense with a Class 3 firearm or with a suppressor attached. Not an issue if you are allowed to legally own them in your state. A legal shoot is legal - period.

If a D.A. wants your butt they're going to come after you regardless. If your attorney is worth anything they can and will nullify any irrelevant B.S. like bullet, firearm or accessory choice.

More internet propagation of B.S. </div></div>

I always see people talking about this, but never cite anything. I agree with Mavrick10.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I have not been able to find a case.

However it also does not take a leap of the imagination to see a slick attorney trying to convince the jury that you were huddled in your lair spending your hours coming up with more "deadly" ammunition and dreaming of the day you could "test" it on a poor hapless citizen like his client.

Do what you want, but just about anything can be turned against you when you have a clueless jury (and you can bet they won't be shooters and hunters).

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Weirdest thing I've heard of in quite some time.

Let's not, and say we did.

The rest has already been covered...

 

[BCP]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Never heard of filing down a bullet either but I have heard other weird things from mil guys before. Lots of guys at my old job were ex-mil and some were a bit rattled from their time in the service so I'd take that sort of advice with a grain of salt.

Buy a box of hornady TAP if you're that paranoid about it.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rnd1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For anything used in home defense you should always purchase an off the shelf product. If you ever have to shoot someone there will probably be a lawyer wanting to sue you for what you had to do.

If what you loaded into your weapon was homemade (or even a standard reload) you will most likely be cast as evil, cruel, and twisted for using a customized, murderously effective design that caused excessive pain and suffering to the poor soul that you purposely set out to kill.

If you use something that a company has developed for home defense you are in the clear as far as what you used to stop an aggressor.

It's not worth the added risk to come up with your own "Man Stopper".
</div></div>

Thats an old wives tale started by Masaad Ayoob.

The use of deadly force is either legal or not. Im not advocating using a flamethrower however but either you legally killed someone or you didnt.

With that being said, I would most likely use factory loaded ammo just for reliability sake.

 

[mbp708]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 12 ga. </div></div>

+1

 

[Dirty D]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Get a 300BLK upper for your AR.

 

[jmsvickers]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I know in our briefs prior to entering Iraq they would specifically tell us to not file down the tips of the rounds, needless to say we did try but they were the 62gr green tips and it proved too difficult. I also have heard stories from other Marines doing just this in Africa (Somalia) and Vietnam but never tried it myself. Not to hijack here but it brought back some memories, and I have a question about some rounds we got. They were hollow point 5.56 (and this was in late 2008) anyone know what these rounds were? Everyone tried to get as many as possible and they would be "acquired" from army or other Marines because we thought that they would be more effective on targets but they looked like OTM not true expanding hollow points. Any ideas?

 

[mewillis]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

Glaser?

 

[plant.one]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

some intresting stuff out there on penetration testing with sheetrock. My favorite take on it so far is www.theboxotruth.com

Box O' Truth #1 - testing wall penetration with rifle/handgun/shotgun

Box O' Truth #3 - shotgun testing on sheetrock

Box O' Truth #4 - 308 TAP, 223 frangible, 9mm glaser, and others

Box o Truth #14 - Rifles, shotguns and walls (revisited)


its kind of an interesting read regarding guns and home wall penetration. It would be interesting to have him do a test of wall after penetratoin of 12" of balistic gel - but at least we can get an idea of what some types of rounds do through basic wall type objects.



hth

 

[DP425]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jmsvickers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know in our briefs prior to entering Iraq they would specifically tell us to not file down the tips of the rounds, needless to say we did try but they were the 62gr green tips and it proved too difficult. I also have heard stories from other Marines doing just this in Africa (Somalia) and Vietnam but never tried it myself. Not to hijack here but it brought back some memories, and I have a question about some rounds we got. They were hollow point 5.56 (and this was in late 2008) anyone know what these rounds were? Everyone tried to get as many as possible and they would be "acquired" from army or other Marines because we thought that they would be more effective on targets but they looked like OTM not true expanding hollow points. Any ideas? </div></div>

Mk262 77gr SMK HPBT Match

Pretty sure Mk318 hadn't be introduced yet

 

[DP425]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plant.one</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some intresting stuff out there on penetration testing with sheetrock. My favorite take on it so far is www.theboxotruth.com

Box O' Truth #1 - testing wall penetration with rifle/handgun/shotgun

Box O' Truth #3 - shotgun testing on sheetrock

Box O' Truth #4 - 308 TAP, 223 frangible, 9mm glaser, and others

Box o Truth #14 - Rifles, shotguns and walls (revisited)


its kind of an interesting read regarding guns and home wall penetration. It would be interesting to have him do a test of wall after penetratoin of 12" of balistic gel - but at least we can get an idea of what some types of rounds do through basic wall type objects.



hth

</div></div>


Though not passing through gel first, Horandy does barrier then gel testing on their LE ammo.


http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/

Click on your different rounds, then go down to the box that contains the stats- click on gelatins.

Worth taking note, you can check it out for yourself, but I can tell you this much, the worst performing (least penetration after wallboard) was the Critical Duty 135gr 9mm at 13". The BEST performing .223 (meaning most penetration after wallboard) was the 55gr GMX Barrier at 15". Next best was the 62gr barrier at 12.75". Some are as low as 4". In other words, the 9mm round with the least penetration will go CONSIDERABLY further than the .223 round with the least penetration.

No gel info for shotguns.

This should at least put to bed the idea that .223 is more lethal through walls than standard caliber pistols; that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[plant.one]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

the 223 55g tap round show 7.5" pen through wallboard and 10" through plywood.

leaning against my wall 7½" coming through my arm from a side shot is still in my lungs. 10" gives you the middle of my breastbone.

conversely - from a non side hit 7½" is still enough to get into the boilermaker and 10" gets you almost all the way through.

considering the bare geletin test was 10" that looks like it will still put a BiG hurt on someone on the other side of the wall.

the good part is... the round only gets 10" of penetration... so if your shots are on their mark the wallboard SHOULD take out any excess energy IF it manages to exit the bad guy.

 

[DP425]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I think it's also worth considering we don't know how far from the gel the barrier was set. I would make the assumption it was close as they are testing for purposes of shooting through to hit someone using it as cover/concealment. So, given different location in the room, the penetration may be significantly less as a result of bullet fragmentation, or at least deformation and erratic flight.

But, I haven't see any testing like this anywhere else, so it's still a lot of solid info- better than a box of soaked phone books anyway.

 

[awonder]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

A load of BB shot in a .12 ga works good.

 

[splean]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

It's sounds like a bad idea for all the reasons stated above. Buy yourself a box of varmit rounds. Just my two cents.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I think he watched that stupid Clooney movie the American where they show him spending the time to file his bullets for some stupid reason then builds a sniper rifle from a Ruger Mini 14, no wonder the whole thing was a setup to kill him off he made the worse hired gun in movie history

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

There are rifle rounds made for defensive purposes. Why re-invent the wheel and invite liability? Hornady TAPs come in an "Urban" flavor, its got a HPBT and is a low penetration round. Winchester Rangers are actually a pointed soft point, just like your standard hunting rounds. I know some scoff at the risk of legal issues that may occur in the event you use a handload of modified bullet. Some feel, and it may be true, that their stuff is better than a manufactured bullet. Like pistol ammo, I say stick with what the cops use.

 

[Graham]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Really people...A lawyer would have a field-day with you if you were to alter a round even with good intentions. </div></div>Graham's Rule #1 applies.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However it also does not take a leap of the imagination to see a slick attorney trying to convince the jury that you were huddled in your lair spending your hours coming up with more "deadly" ammunition and dreaming of the day you could "test" it on a poor hapless citizen like his client.

Do what you want, but just about anything can be turned against you when you have a clueless jury (and you can bet they won't be shooters and hunters). </div></div>Is this from experience or is it speculation? The first question for admissibility is always relevance.

And it's the lawyer's job to educate the jury.

Speaking of which:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BeEzLeBoSs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He suggested filing down the tip making it flat a little bit. He claims it will greatly reduce speed and really increase stopping power but it's only good for semi close quarters...He suggested maybe an 1/8" of the top or a lil less.</div></div>Absolute, complete and unadulterated BS. And, while you're at it, you might as well abandon linking the idea of velocity to penetration in a .223.

 

[fdkay]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

To the OP,
Have you ever heard of the internet?

There are plenty of places that sell hollowpoint or plastic tipped ammo there. It is a wonderful place, you can find willing women, zombie supplies and free music.

If you manage to make your way to wally world, they frequently sell 40 round boxes of 45 grain hollowpoint varmint rounds (winchester whitebox).

Other than that, go to wideners online and buy some prvi partizan 75 grain match. 200 rounds for about 90 bucks.

 

[Ammo dog 2311]

Re: Filing down the tip of a .223/5.56?

I am a marine vet and was in Somalia. I was a ammo tech. I was in charge of grade III ammo. That's ammo we were to blow up. When you were leaving country you had to return your ammo to the dump before you left. Any ammo not in original box was grade III no matter how good it looked. I had to count each and every round entering the dump. I never saw an altered A-080 ( 5.56 ) round that I can remember, though I may have missed one but I don't think so.
If I did find one altered in such a way you can bet I would be tearing that ammo tech a third corn hole. Leave the ammo alone. Use a different weapon for CQB if you have one if not then us ammo already designed for CQB.