Finest Sniper Rifle of WWII?

[steve123]

As a side note I've had very weird things happen with a old Lawton 375CT with the Lost River bore using the old Hooker tactical 350gr solids.

Very rare that thing would shoot less than 1" groups at 100Y. I was pissed and was going to send the rifle back, hadn't even shot it farther than 100Y in 150 rounds of doing load development (expensive at $1.72 a bullet) Last ditch effort, and for the heck of it, I tried 400Y since I had some ammo left, got two back to back 2.5" 5 shot groups at 400Y, Uh what's up with that???
Later on I did a 7" group at 2050Y for 3 shots with it and had other smallish groups at other ELR distances?????!!!!!!!!!! The guy shooting with me the same day I shot the 7" group couldn't hit that same plate after many rounds with his 50 cal Windrunner using the 750 Amax, he claimed it was a 1" rifle at 100Y. There are some why's and oddities that might never be explained???????? I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't experienced this myself. Believe me I don't want to be looked on as a fool but at the same time I have to tell the truth at risk to any good reputation I might have.

Oddly my rifle wouldn't shoot the 350SMK worth a darn, like 4" groups at 100Y so the rifling stats weren't normal.

Years later I ran across a guy having the same phenomenon here on the Hide with the same type of rifle and bullets so it wasn't just me.

Or there's the opposite. Tried some 105rdf's in my 6mmBR, did some sub 1" 3 shot groups at 300Y during load work. Once in a while there would be a large flyer which would make me scratch my head. Tried them at 900 and 1100Y and there was """HUGE""" vertical, like 3-4 feet of it. I have a 8 twist barrel and shoot at 6500ft so they should have been stable????

 

[Hairy Biker]

Here is the simple to understand explanation of "compensation" as it occurs in the rear locking SMLE action. For you guys brought up only knowing front locking Mauser type actions, you will not have come across some of this stuff. As flagged previously, the Commonwealth Rifle Clubs did a lot of work to make SMLEs accurate and there is many a story of rifles being stripped back and rebuilt between each Saturday shoot.

The introduction of the 308 killed all this and made the 303 and converted military actions obsolete.

------

Lower velocity bullets left with the muzzle axis higher than when the velocity was higher. Which caused mid-range(500 to 600 yards) accuracy to be not very good. But long range (700- 1000 yards) accuracy was better than at either short- or mid-range. Proper tests showed the best SMLE's could produce 30- to 50-shot groups of about 20 inches at 1000 yards. At 500 yards, the same rifle-ammo combination would produce groups about the same size; twice as big in MOA.

Muzzle velocity versus vertical shot hole location tests were done with SMLE's which shows lower muzzle velocities put holes higher in the group than lower muzzle velocities. Which explains why at 1000 yards, the two average trajectories (higher velocity and lower
velocity) merged and the resultant group was (is) smaller in MOA than at 500 yards. 1000-yard test groups showed both higher and lower muzzle velocity shots were about equally distributed within the vertical spread of the group. Vertical spread for shots fired at the
same velocity are typically caused by very small differences in each bullet's in-flight ballistic coefficient.

When a Mauser action rifle was used, groups at 1000 yards were 30 to 40 inches; equal to the drop difference (vertical shot stringing) at that range their ammo produced with its 100 fps or so muzzle velocity spread. At 500 yards, the drop difference is about 10 inches for this ammo and is about what the best rifle-ammo combination could produce.

To get better accuracy at shorter ranges, these competitors would use rifles based on a Mauser 98 action. These front-locking action rifles didn't exhibit any compensation; positive nor negative. Accuracy got worse as range increased and was (and still is) very proportional to muzzle velocity spread. At short and mid-ranges, they shot more accurate than the SMLE. Grouping at 500 to 600 yards was typically about 10 inches with the Mauser action rifles but much larger with the SMLEs. Beyond 600 yards, they always used the SMLE. High power long range competitors from the USA using Mauser 98 action rifles chambered for the .303 learned at matches in Great Britain their super accuraterifles using smokeless powder handloads they developed at home were less accurate with the issued Cordite loaded ammo in SMLEs at the
longer ranges.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

A LE that prints 2” at 100 yards isn’t going to print 2” at 500, but instead of printing 10” at 500 it might print 7” because the accuracy doesn’t degrade to the level you would expect.

This makes zero sense. If its shoots 2" at 100 then the dispersion that makes it 10" at 500 has already happened. Thats not accuracy degradation, thats just staying constant.

For instance if I draw two straight lines at a 5 degree angle to each other, it will measure about .7" at 8" out and will have to measure 1.4" at 16". Thats not dispersion or degradation, and the only way it could measure less than 1.4" at 16" is if my lines bent. You're saying that bullets fired from a Lee Enfield will disperse but somehow tighten back up at distance.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

This should explain the concept better:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/positive-compensation.3890281/

And no, it certainly aint limited to rear locking actions, thats nonsense.. Its kinda hard to grasp if ya never seen it before, but its certainly a real thing. If barrels and stocks were perfectly rigid and there was no movement/vibrations when firing, then correct this phenomenon would not occur.

It aint breaking any laws of nature.. physics still applies. Hence there is only one specific range where it'll compensate best at.

With that said, I definitely disagree the No 4 is the most accurate WW2 sniper, whether 100 or 1000 yd. IMO a Finn M39 or 1903 will shoot better,

 

[Hairy Biker]

With that said, I definitely disagree the No 4 is the most accurate WW2 sniper, whether 100 or 1000 yd. IMO a Finn M39 or 1903 will shoot better,

Two words that make the difference between the M39 or '03 and a No4 with scopes on - cheek weld.

 

[Ledzep]

The '03 Unertl and 03a4 really aren't that bad if you ask me. The K98 ZF39 and 91/30 PU set ups are a bit out there. The No.4(t) are more comfy but it's not a make or break IMO.

 

[perttime]

That's a fair consideration and Simo's track record speaks for itself. But I personally would not consider a rifle indistinguishable from the default infantryman's arm to be a true "sniper rifle" regardless of who used it and how.

Being a Simo fan, I must concede that Simo probably didn't use the greatest sniper rifle. It was a perfect match of man and rifle for the particular conditions, though. I believe his reasons for not using a scoped rifle were perfectly valid there and then.

 

[dino67]

Gale McMillan comments on the Lee Enfield Rifle

From: Gale McMillan Newsgroups: rec.guns Subject: Re: Lee Enfield Accuracy Date: 31 Jan 1996 21:49:13 -0500 Bruce D. Hood wrote: # In the July 1993 issue of the American Rifleman,C.E. Harris # shot several different samples of ammunition through a No.1 mk111 # a No.4mk1, and another...

www.thehighroad.org

 

[Sooter76]

With that said, I definitely disagree the No 4 is the most accurate WW2 sniper, whether 100 or 1000 yd. IMO a Finn M39 or 1903 will shoot better,

That’s an interesting comparison. I’m a big fan of the M39 and when you consider that the minimum requirements for the (T) was 2 MOA i think they would be on par but to say the M39 is better I think would be a matter of comparing individual rifles.

 

[Sooter76]

The '03 Unertl and 03a4 really aren't that bad if you ask me. The K98 ZF39 and 91/30 PU set ups are a bit out there. The No.4(t) are more comfy but it's not a make or break IMO.

It’s not that they’re bad it’s just there were better, or at least more sophisticated and better built, sniper rifles in use.

 

[Sooter76]

Being a Simo fan, I must concede that Simo probably didn't use the greatest sniper rifle. It was a perfect match of man and rifle for the particular conditions, though. I believe his reasons for not using a scoped rifle were perfectly valid there and then.

I also think it says a lot about the range he was shooting from. This isn’t a knock on him, but I’m not sure you can call him a sniper in the sense of what we generally think of.

 

[Sooter76]

This should explain the concept better:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/positive-compensation.3890281/

Thank you for that...

 

[natdscott]

I also think it says a lot about the range he was shooting from. This isn’t a knock on him, but I’m not sure you can call him a sniper in the sense of what we generally think of.

Have you spent much time around someone who is really good with irons?

In a high contrast environment like winter in Finland?

Betchya we can get hits a helluva lot further than most people think. Certainly further than most of those rifle's sights were properly regulated.

 

[ZG47A]

Here is the simple to understand explanation of "compensation" as it occurs in the rear locking SMLE action. For you guys brought up only knowing front locking Mauser type actions, you will not have come across some of this stuff. As flagged previously, the Commonwealth Rifle Clubs did a lot of work to make SMLEs accurate and there is many a story of rifles being stripped back and rebuilt between each Saturday shoot.

The introduction of the 308 killed all this and made the 303 and converted military actions obsolete.

------

Lower velocity bullets left with the muzzle axis higher than when the velocity was higher. Which caused mid-range(500 to 600 yards) accuracy to be not very good. But long range (700- 1000 yards) accuracy was better than at either short- or mid-range. Proper tests showed the best SMLE's could produce 30- to 50-shot groups of about 20 inches at 1000 yards. At 500 yards, the same rifle-ammo combination would produce groups about the same size; twice as big in MOA.

Muzzle velocity versus vertical shot hole location tests were done with SMLE's which shows lower muzzle velocities put holes higher in the group than lower muzzle velocities. Which explains why at 1000 yards, the two average trajectories (higher velocity and lower
velocity) merged and the resultant group was (is) smaller in MOA than at 500 yards. 1000-yard test groups showed both higher and lower muzzle velocity shots were about equally distributed within the vertical spread of the group. Vertical spread for shots fired at the
same velocity are typically caused by very small differences in each bullet's in-flight ballistic coefficient.

When a Mauser action rifle was used, groups at 1000 yards were 30 to 40 inches; equal to the drop difference (vertical shot stringing) at that range their ammo produced with its 100 fps or so muzzle velocity spread. At 500 yards, the drop difference is about 10 inches for this ammo and is about what the best rifle-ammo combination could produce.

To get better accuracy at shorter ranges, these competitors would use rifles based on a Mauser 98 action. These front-locking action rifles didn't exhibit any compensation; positive nor negative. Accuracy got worse as range increased and was (and still is) very proportional to muzzle velocity spread. At short and mid-ranges, they shot more accurate than the SMLE. Grouping at 500 to 600 yards was typically about 10 inches with the Mauser action rifles but much larger with the SMLEs. Beyond 600 yards, they always used the SMLE. High power long range competitors from the USA using Mauser 98 action rifles chambered for the .303 learned at matches in Great Britain their super accuraterifles using smokeless powder handloads they developed at home were less accurate with the issued Cordite loaded ammo in SMLEs at the
longer ranges.

I have done very little shooting with Lee Enfields and have never used one at our local NZNRA Range BUT:

1. I have friends who hunt with Lee rifles and occasionally swap their 7.62 target rifles for Lee Enfield target rifles.

2. The compensation occurs with Long Tom (Long Lee Enfield or LLE) rifles, SMLE No. 1 Mk III rifles and Charger Loading Lee Enfield (CLLE) rifles, etc. The latter were LLEs issued to Yeomanry (part-time) units and which had been converted via fitting of a charger bridge and substitution of later model and/or converted magazines that would feed Mk VII ammunition. The famous film from the Somme shows a Scottish NCO with a CLLE rifle.

3. Compensation, according to my recollection of many conversations, is not a significant factor when using a No. 4 actioned riflE, due to its stiffer construction.

 

[Sooter76]

Have you spent much time around someone who is really good with irons?

In a high contrast environment like winter in Finland?

Betchya we can get hits a helluva lot further than most people think. Certainly further than most of those rifle's sights were properly regulated.

I have, and that isn't a comment on his skill or ability. Simo won a bunch of shooting competitions with his service rifle so he was obviously a great marksman. But one of the two reasons he stated for not using a scope was that he didn't want to have to raise his head up to what a scope would require (which really isn't much). I've never seen anything that specifically stated the ranges he was shooting at, but based on that comment from him and the amount of forest coverage in Finland, especially at the time, I think it's safe to assume that he was shooting from closer ranges than we would immediately assume.

 

[sandwarrior]

Gale McMillan comments on the Lee Enfield Rifle

From: Gale McMillan Newsgroups: rec.guns Subject: Re: Lee Enfield Accuracy Date: 31 Jan 1996 21:49:13 -0500 Bruce D. Hood wrote: # In the July 1993 issue of the American Rifleman,C.E. Harris # shot several different samples of ammunition through a No.1 mk111 # a No.4mk1, and another...

www.thehighroad.org

The "overstabilization" that Gale alludes to and another poster on the forum that that link takes you to, explains it better.

So many of us here have believed, that any movement of the bullet off center means it took a direct angular change. Most think this without ever taking into consideration that the gyroscopic force (bullet rotation) is a pretty strong one. It wants to stay on the course the barrel sent it. So, it has a tendency to rotate around that axis when an outside force pushes it. That doesn't mean outside forces don't have their way. They always do. But, often times to a lesser degree than we think.

Rotation slows at about 10% of the rate velocity slows. So, while getting weaker, it gets proportionally higher to velocity. The end-game is that the rotational energy the bullet still has wants to settle at the center of the axis it was fired from. It will move from outside forces as stated above. At given distances, it may rotate around the axis closer to the original POA, or in other distances it may rotate farther away from the POA. This is where compensation comes in. If you could "tune" the barrel like a tuning fork and limit it to a one-directional "fling", the barrel would always be at a high point when a given weight and bearing surface bullet left the barrel at a given (or very close to) a given speed.

We compensate by load charges, powder types, primer type,s point support under barrels and barrel weights. We have learned that with better tolerances of today's bullets that overstabilizing isn't as bad as what we all thought it was. Understabilizing means that the bullet might possibly go radically unstable (never recover rotational stability) before it reaches our intended target. ALL bullets will eventually do this if you try to get them to fly forever. But, it's really hard to measure a bullets flight characteristics when it's that far out.

 

[sandwarrior]

I have, and that isn't a comment on his skill or ability. Simo won a bunch of shooting competitions with his service rifle so he was obviously a great marksman. But one of the two reasons he stated for not using a scope was that he didn't want to have to raise his head up to what a scope would require (which really isn't much). I've never seen anything that specifically stated the ranges he was shooting at, but based on that comment from him and the amount of forest coverage in Finland, especially at the time, I think it's safe to assume that he was shooting from closer ranges than we would immediately assume.

I too would call Simo Haya a sniper in every sense of the word. He used every skill taught to new snipers today. Which meant that he used extreme amounts of concealment, cover, adapted shooting positions and even tactics to suit the situation. The 200+ submachinegun kills shows that. He got all those kills in around a three month period. They knew he was there as soon as he came onto that battlefield. It took a lot of deaths before they put a bullet into his face three months later.

And yes, the choice to not use a scope was for not raising his head and as much as possible, not giving his scope the chance to give him away as it might reflect sunlight.

 

[Nodakplowboy]

And yes, the choice to not use a scope was for not raising his head and as much as possible, not giving his scope the chance to give him away as it might reflect sunlight.

Not to mention one's breath will fog up a cold scope in a heartbeat.

 

[perttime]

Not to mention one's breath will fog up a cold scope in a heartbeat.

And open sights were what he was intimately familiar with.
I, too, believe he didn't break any long distance kill records. He just used concealment, marksmanship, etc. to do a job: kill or wound as many on the other side as possible.

Back to fine rifles?

 

[towerofpower93]

Regarding the aerodynamic stability discussion, I found this document covering various 5.56 projectiles researched by Army Research Lab very interesting a few years back.

Aerodynamic and Flight Dynamic Characteristics of 5.56-mm Ammunition: M855

TL;DR: bullets leave the muzzle with a bunch of coning force, they can settle down as the RPMs drop, and then become unstable again as the rotational velocity degrades.

Doesn't cover the Lee Enfield or .303 ammo, but I think there might be some parallels to be drawn.

Interesting discussion so far on this as well as the overall question posited by the article in the OP.

 

[Hairy Biker]

Taking it a step sideways from the original question, you have to remember that British Army doctrine was to create beaten zones at long range through the use of rapid fire to break up opposing formations. (Machine guns being considered too modern) Hence the long range sights on the early Lee Enfields. If you can get 30 men shooting 10 rounds rapid at a known distance target, that will disrupt a lot of planned formations.

Read the first hand accounts from the German side of their attacks at the Mons canals in 1914. Cows would suddenly stand up on two legs then fall over at long distances from the British lines. I'll try and find the book.

 

[natdscott]

I'll try and find the book.

Please do, and let me know. Sounds interesting.

 

[sandwarrior]

And open sights were what he was intimately familiar with.
I, too, believe he didn't break any long distance kill records. He just used concealment, marksmanship, etc. to do a job: kill or wound as many on the other side as possible.

Back to fine rifles?

700 yards was the unofficial longest shot he made. He went into a lot of places they never thought he would be.

Added:

Regarding the aerodynamic stability discussion, I found this document covering various 5.56 projectiles researched by Army Research Lab very interesting a few years back.

Aerodynamic and Flight Dynamic Characteristics of 5.56-mm Ammunition: M855

TL;DR: bullets leave the muzzle with a bunch of coning force, they can settle down as the RPMs drop, and then become unstable again as the rotational velocity degrades.

Doesn't cover the Lee Enfield or .303 ammo, but I think there might be some parallels to be drawn.

Interesting discussion so far on this as well as the overall question posited by the article in the OP.

That is an interesting read regarding the M855. It is a more capable cartridge than a lot of people think. Myself included.

However, reading into the test, to simulate 600m velocities, they fuggered 'em out by math then downloaded the cartridges to match the speed. First for high pressure, they used WC844. That was the stuff they had to pull offline in Viet Nam as it was too dirty. Then they used H4198, which was supposed to be used in place of WC844 (it was the original choice for 5.56x45 NATO) with reduced loads to simulate long shots!

Point being here: "a half a load of powder won't simulate the harmonics in a rifle what a full load will" So, unfortunately, the whole test is a wash. You can't "half-ass" simulate something and call it a valid test.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Whether he broke long range record or not.. he took one of these Russian rounds to the FACE:


What a beast

 

[Hairy Biker]

The book to read as source material for what it is like to receive long range volley fire is:

The advance from Mons 1914 / by Walter Bloem ; translated from the German by G.C. Wynne ; with a foreword by Sir James E. Edmonds.​

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

700 yards was the unofficial longest shot he made. He went into a lot of places they never thought he would be.

Added:


That is an interesting read regarding the M855. It is a more capable cartridge than a lot of people think. Myself included.

M855A1 and M80A1 are pretty cool also, although if the Army wants AP then IDK why they dont just run AP.. regular old black tip is still a more capable round vs body armor than the hot as hell M80A1 without running so much PSI. And I'd wager black tip is more capable against all manner of barriers as well.

Not sure if you've kept up with the 6.8x51 NGSW... lol this program wants our next main service rifle and belt fed to be running 75,000+ psi launching 135gr 6.8mm projos at 3000 fps from a 13" barrel. Stated goal is defeating Lvl 4 armor at 600m. Talk about a step backward, no clue how they arrived at a 13" .270(for the most part) being the best solution for a service rifle LOL.. needless to say I doubt(and hope it don't) that project sees much adoption. Maybe some unintended good will come of it and see use tho, ie historically we got the ACOG and Elcan from the ACR trials, the flat top upper, etc. If they wanna defeat Lvl 4 at distance, break out the .50 or a .338 AP round; building a main line rifle and MG around that goal is ridiculous.

 

[Jscb1b]

Whether he broke long range record or not.. he took one of these Russian rounds to the FACE:


What a beast

My conclusion is FUCK YEAH!!!

 

[Deleted member 10043]

The one that indirectly saved your grandpa's life and thus being responsible for your existence.

 

[Blitzy]

But the real ones to look at, IMHO, are the German 98's and the Russian Nagants. In the hands of very evolved sniper programs. The Germans used sniping on the defensive like noone before or since.

"Sniper on the Eastern Front" is an excellent read for this reason.

 

[sandwarrior]

"Sniper on the Eastern Front" is an excellent read for this reason.

I think more in terms of the Battle of the Bocage. German snipers in the defense of Normandy. They literally held us down to barely moving for the better part of two months.

You can have tanks and other armor, but those need people to help them around obstacles. When you shoot those people from a leadership/key individual mindset, the rest tend not to move forward. The Germans didn't just shoot, they shot known rank and anybody directing people. Then they focused on our machine guns. They protected their panzerfausts that kept our tanks from coming over the hedgerows. They protected their machine gunners who herded our assault forces into infantry traps such as minefields. They also herded our forces whenever possible.

As a planned tactic, they, along with the Russians in Stalingrad, were two of the most successful sniper operations ever.

 

[towerofpower93]

700 yards was the unofficial longest shot he made. He went into a lot of places they never thought he would be.

Added:


That is an interesting read regarding the M855. It is a more capable cartridge than a lot of people think. Myself included.

However, reading into the test, to simulate 600m velocities, they fuggered 'em out by math then downloaded the cartridges to match the speed. First for high pressure, they used WC844. That was the stuff they had to pull offline in Viet Nam as it was too dirty. Then they used H4198, which was supposed to be used in place of WC844 (it was the original choice for 5.56x45 NATO) with reduced loads to simulate long shots!

Point being here: "a half a load of powder won't simulate the harmonics in a rifle what a full load will" So, unfortunately, the whole test is a wash. You can't "half-ass" simulate something and call it a valid test.

I agree their loading the ammo so as to be able to create the downrange velocities within the building required for photography does make it a skewed test. That said, this seems to be somewhat of a scientific approach which shows what anecdotal accounts claim.

I wonder if any of the Doppler testing done by Hornady, Berger, or other bullet manufacturers has had the precision to see what the exact flight path of the bullet looks like. I have to imagine the precision required for that isn't available, but it would be pretty cool if it was.

 

[Random Guy]

I wonder if any of the Doppler testing done by Hornady, Berger, or other bullet manufacturers has had the precision to see what the exact flight path of the bullet looks like. I have to imagine the precision required for that isn't available, but it would be pretty cool if it was

I think the story of why Hornady invented their much harder ELD bullets with 'Heat Shield" tips - to more or less replace the polymer tipped AMAX bullets for long range shooting, is an interesting read. Its the only example that I am aware of where odd changes in drag were occurring in trajectory mid-flight - being due mainly to increased drag by the plastic tip of a bullet that was melting and thus deforming at Mach 2+...

Heat Shield® Technology - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Never compromise at any distance. Heat Shield® Tip... ONE tip, TWO bullets! Extend your range, and never compromise at any distance. Hornady engineers, using state of the art aeroballistics software, Doppler radar and decades of bullet performance kn...

www.hornady.com

(excerpt)

"IDENTIFYING A PROBLEM – AERODYNAMIC HEATING
While analyzing the radar data on the new bullet, Hornady engineers noticed something right away that was puzzling. In Drag Coefficient versus Mach (Cd vs Mach) graphs, they saw that the new projectile was gaining drag shortly after leaving the barrel, which affected the performance of that bullet for the rest of its flight path. Simply put, the bullet acted like it had one particular BC for the first 100 to 150 yards, then transitioned to a lower BC for the rest of its flight path. Further testing was done with other bullets including BTHP match and A-MAX® bullets. While the BTHP bullets Cd vs Mach charts looked as expected, the A-MAX® bullets were showing the same increase in drag that the prototype hunting bullet did. It was as if the bullet was changing shape in flight.

Further testing was done to confirm suspicions that the polymer tip was the culprit. Aerodynamically efficient, high BC bullets at high velocity were suffering from polymer tips softening and deforming in flight. Further testing proved that it happens to all conventional polymer tipped bullets, regardless of manufacturer. Tipped varmint bullets and conventional low to medium BC (sub .550 G1) bullets are not significantly affected. They simply do not hold a high velocity long enough for the aerodynamic heating to significantly affect their tip."

...interesting study, IMO.

 

[Ledzep]

The doppler systems most are using measure in one axis. From that data some CD vs. velocity curves can be calculated and then used in software (4DOF, for example) to generate a flight path, but I'm not aware of anything outside of DoD facilities that tracks 3 dimensional position/orientation throughout the flight path.

 

[towerofpower93]

The doppler systems most are using measure in one axis. From that data some CD vs. velocity curves can be calculated and then used in software (4DOF, for example) to generate a flight path, but I'm not aware of anything outside of DoD facilities that tracks 3 dimensional position/orientation throughout the flight path.

That's what I'm thinking as well. The level of precision required to see the coning action of a bullet early in flight would be a tall order.

 

[sandwarrior]

The doppler systems most are using measure in one axis. From that data some CD vs. velocity curves can be calculated and then used in software (4DOF, for example) to generate a flight path, but I'm not aware of anything outside of DoD facilities that tracks 3 dimensional position/orientation throughout the flight path.

Hornady sells a LOT of bullets to the U.S. Government and therefore does some of the highest level testing on them. That's your DoD connection.

 

[Darayavaus]

Finn M28 - read up on Sino and then check back in.

yes, he used open sights, and about 1/3 of his kills were with an SMG

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Even if all his kills were with SMG, as @sandwarrior said the methods he used were straight up text book sniper. IMO a “sniper” ain’t defined by the weapons he uses, it certainly ain’t gonna stop the dudes getting shot at from saying “oh f*ck we gotta sniper over here!!”..

Pacific theater was a good example where a sniper rifle may not have been the best choice for a “sniper” to use.

 

[pmclaine]

Even if all his kills were with SMG, as @sandwarrior said the methods he used were straight up text book sniper. IMO a “sniper” ain’t defined by the weapons he uses, it certainly ain’t gonna stop the dudes getting shot at from saying “oh f*ck we gotta sniper over here!!”..

Pacific theater was a good example where a sniper rifle may not have been the best choice for a “sniper” to use.

"Sniper" should be used as a force multiplier.

One guy is capable of balling up a unit of much larger size or having greater impact than one man should.

I'd say Simo did that as his ability probably caused the Soviets to employ resources dealing with him that they otherwise would not have had to.

I think Chuck MaWhinney had a contact where just he and his assistant kept a whole NVA Company pinned down and out of a fight.

A sniper can drain resources, supplies, equipment and most importantly moral.

 

[Darayavaus]

I think more in terms of the Battle of the Bocage. German snipers in the defense of Normandy. They literally held us down to barely moving for the better part of two months.

You can have tanks and other armor, but those need people to help them around obstacles. When you shoot those people from a leadership/key individual mindset, the rest tend not to move forward. The Germans didn't just shoot, they shot known rank and anybody directing people. Then they focused on our machine guns. They protected their panzerfausts that kept our tanks from coming over the hedgerows. They protected their machine gunners who herded our assault forces into infantry traps such as minefields. They also herded our forces whenever possible.

As a planned tactic, they, along with the Russians in Stalingrad, were two of the most successful sniper operations ever.

Soviet sniper claims are very dubious and made for propaganda purposes. When you consider the fact that they concealed the extent of even large scale operations - like the objectives and failure of Operation Mars, which was intended to be the larger of the 2 soviet winter offensives in 42/43, and got away with it until 91 when their archives were opened, you can understand why the practice of adding numbers to individual tallies was a common practice under that system. So, I would take many of their claims with a grain of salt.
As far as the nuts and bolts, I have owned custom built copies of the PU and PEM rifles, as well as the LSR, SSR, low turret, G.43, and ZF41 systems with both Hensoldt and Ajack original scopes (the E. European made repros are garbage). I have never owned the british or US sniper rifles or their copies, but I've had a ton of garands, 03s, 03A3s, various enfields, Finnish m39's, an m28, Swedish m96s, m38s, and a m41. Among many other WW2 era rifles.

In my own experiences, the german rifles shot tighter groups than the Soviet ones, with the exception of the G.43 and the zf41, which were pretty bad. But for anyone looking for clarification on what the german snipers were capable of, look at some of the post-war intelligence debriefings that we did with their snipers, talking about their own abilities. Its very interesting reading.

 

[Darayavaus]

and for anyone interested

 

[Sooter76]

In my own experiences, the german rifles shot tighter groups than the Soviet ones, with the exception of the G.43 and the zf41, which were pretty bad. But for anyone looking for clarification on what the german snipers were capable of, look at some of the post-war intelligence debriefings that we did with their snipers, talking about their own abilities. Its very interesting reading.

I think much of that is attributable to the Germans actually having a mature sniper program... Most of the rest of the world had to start from scratch after letting their programs lapse after the end of WWI.

 

[Darayavaus]

I think much of that is attributable to the Germans actually having a mature sniper program... Most of the rest of the world had to start from scratch after letting their programs lapse after the end of WWI.

The german program lagged in the 30's. Accepted doctrine was that motorization and rapid advances would make snipers obsolete. the soviets were ahead of them with their sniper program, cranking out huge numbers of snipers who were often sacrificed en masse to cause the maximum number of german casualties, which was absolutely par for soviet tactics back then. Before the wehrmacht recognized the need to reemploy large numbers of snipers, in 1942, individual 'marksmen' would often pick up captured soviet weapons. it was also common for old-inventory scoped gew.98 and 98b rifles with claw mounts and sometimes even double triggers to show up at the front. Early on, before their importance was more universally accepted, many German officers were so contemptuous of snipers that it was accepted protocol for the marksman to remove the telescopic sight and participate in the infantry assault like every other grunt.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I think Chuck MaWhinney had a contact where just he and his assistant kept a whole NVA Company pinned down and out of a fight.

Pretty sure That was Hathcock and his spotter Burke. Though its likely plausible Mawhinney encountered a similar situation..

 

[Darayavaus]

acceptable accuracy for the k98k was "at 100 meters, 3 shots are fired ....the mean point of impact lies in a rectangle of 80x140 mm and all 3 shots are located in a circle of 120mm." fliers were not tolerated and generally disqualified a rifle, causing it to be sent back to the armorer. The best performing rifles were sent on to be modified for optics and the trigger tested and reworked for a 1.5-2.5kg pull.
once mounted with optics, the sniper rifle had to place 3/5 shots in a circle 70mm diameter, 105mm overall with a common center at 100 meters. Failure to pass the test disqualifies the rifle.

 

[pmclaine]

Pretty sure That was Hathcock and his spotter Burke. Though its likely plausible Mawhinney encountered a similar situation..

Ill defer to your recollection. I read it somewhere.

But that is a great use of the sniper.

Its the type of employment that gets overlooked.

I think they were looked on as the bastard child because people not knowing what they were supposed to be doing thought they just dropped people for the joy of putting a notch in the stock.

They can go beyond the tactical level. In overwatch they are the savior or the game changer depending on what they see and do.

 

[sandwarrior]

Even if all his kills were with SMG, as @sandwarrior said the methods he used were straight up text book sniper. IMO a “sniper” ain’t defined by the weapons he uses, it certainly ain’t gonna stop the dudes getting shot at from saying “oh f*ck we gotta sniper over here!!”..

Pacific theater was a good example where a sniper rifle may not have been the best choice for a “sniper” to use.

he had over 505 kills with a sniper rifle. He had some 200+ kills with the SMG.

 

[brianf]

Don’t want to derail but there are a few stories (I can’t remember the damn book) that Russians picked up German Sniper’s books and some had over 700 kills and one had over 1200.
It will now piss me off all night...

 

[Darayavaus]

Don’t want to derail but there are a few stories (I can’t remember the damn book) that Russians picked up German Sniper’s books and some had over 700 kills and one had over 1200.
It will now piss me off all night...

for the Germans, a sniper kill had to be observed, usually by an officer to count toward the official tally. So it is theoretically possible that the true stats ran much higher for a rare few top snipers. The majority of them never would have made it that long. Soviet doctrine was this: once an enemy sniper, or even potential sniper was located, every resource at their disposal was used to eradicate them, including batteries of artillery. So life expectancy was short.

The highest scoring one was Matthäus Hetzenauer, an Austrian sniper in the 3rd Mountain Division on the Eastern Front. he was credited with 345 kills. longest confirmed kill was 1100 metres.

 

[Darayavaus]

Pretty sure That was Hathcock and his spotter Burke. Though its likely plausible Mawhinney encountered a similar situation..

it was. Elephant Valley in '67

 

[pmclaine]

acceptable accuracy for the k98k was "at 100 meters, 3 shots are fired ....the mean point of impact lies in a rectangle of 80x140 mm and all 3 shots are located in a circle of 120mm." fliers were not tolerated and generally disqualified a rifle, causing it to be sent back to the armorer. The best performing rifles were sent on to be modified for optics and the trigger tested and reworked for a 1.5-2.5kg pull.
once mounted with optics, the sniper rifle had to place 3/5 shots in a circle 70mm diameter, 105mm overall with a common center at 100 meters. Failure to pass the test disqualifies the rifle.

So a scoped sniper had an 80 percent of the time just under a 3MOA rifle if I did the conversion right?

Not spectacular by our present standards but good enough.

By "our" I mean a bunch of keyboard hobbyists that shoot off benches.

All right next time Ill just use "my".