Fired brass fits in chamber - still bump?

[HerCoStarNTheBeaverPictur]

I have some once fired lapua brass from some factory ammo. I tried to measure headspace using it but it all chambers without any sizing done. I used the wheeler method of removing firing pin and ejector and bolt drops under its own weight.

So my question is, should I still bump the shoulders back a couple thou or just reload as is?

 

[pabrousseau]

Just reload.

 

[tsu45]

If you feel you got the whole neck, which sounds like you did if getting a free fall bolt drop, would just load and shoot.

 

[CheapBasterd]

OP. Are you asking if you should just simply reload without running the brass through the any type of sizer at all?

Watching as I have this same question. I have some once fired factory Hornady brass and some new virgin once fired Peterson brass that all chamber just fine (same method no ejector) bolt drops free.

Does a bullet easily pass or fall through the neck of your fired brass?

 

[GIXXER2000]

I had a chance to talk with Peterson brass guys at Shot Show and they recommended only bump the shoulder when the brass gets hard to chamber. This puts less stress in the brass the leads to case head separation. For me on my 375CT brass I went from 5 firings to my current brass that is on its 7th firing and shows no signs of case head separation hell looks almost new. On my magnum and CT brass I anneal every firing and my small stuff every other firing.

 

[CheapBasterd]

I had a chance to talk with Peterson brass guys at Shot Show and they recommended only bump the shoulder when the brass gets hard to chamber. This puts less stress in the brass the leads to case head separation. For me on my 375CT brass I went from 5 firings to my current brass that is on its 7th firing and shows no signs of case head separation hell looks almost new. On my magnum and CT brass I anneal every firing and my small stuff every other firing.

So you just size the necks until it gets hard to chamber and then bump then bump the shoulder?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Always bump it back atleast .002...preferably 3-4 thou. Unless you want clickers , rounds that won't chamber as soon as it gets dirty or stuck cases when it rains.

It's asking for issues otherwise. Brass is a consumable that will last a very long time if you care for it properly. You will most likely loose it before you get split necks or loose primer pockets if you are reloading correctly.

Or don't and I guarantee you will run into one of those issues , probally at the worst time. You can either listen to people who learned the hard way or learn it yourself.

 

[HerCoStarNTheBeaverPictur]

OP. Are you asking if you should just simply reload without running the brass through the any type of sizer at all?

Watching as I have this same question. I have some once fired factory Hornady brass and some new virgin once fired Peterson brass that all chamber just fine (same method no ejector) bolt drops free.

Does a bullet easily pass or fall through the neck of your fired brass?

No, I still plan to size the necks because I think they are a bit loose. I also measured to the lands and the bolt was dropping under its own weight as well which really mind f’d me until I realized that the bullet was able to slide into the necks with little resistance.

Once I sized the neck, I was able to get an accurate measurement to the lands.

 

[GIXXER2000]

Yes that's correct. So like on my 6.5cm or 6cm I only bump about every 3rd firing. Now the 338lm or 300NM its ends up being every other firing and on the 375ct it after the 4th firing that case just never seems to grow much.
As for clicker's or cases getting stuck I have only run into that on the 338lm and it turned out to be a slightly to large resizing die. Sent it back to Redding the replaced issue gone.
Every one reloads differently you just need to find what works for you.

 

[memilanuk]

I recently did something where I took 25 pieces of brass, out of a lot of 400, and have been running them through repeatedly just to see how they held up before I committed to prepping the rest. Normally... I'd fire them once, take a case headspace measurement, using a headspace comparator of some sort, set the die to bump them back a couple thou, and call it good. I don't think I ever had one that was fired where the bolt still closed freely with a stripped bolt, but I did find that that headspace number crept a little as the cases got a few more firings on them and were more fully fire-formed to the chamber. So my suggestion would be to size them as minimally as possible for a couple firings before you lock down the setting on that sizing die - if the bolt closes easily, you're still good.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

All depends upon if you're about groups, or your first requirement is it has to operate & go bang. Groups are one thing, but in today's world (as always) going bang is king with me.

 

[HerCoStarNTheBeaverPictur]

FWIW, my new brass measures .004 smaller than the fired

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

If the stripped bolt falls free, then just set up your sizing die as far down as you can that doesn't lengthen or shorten the case at shoulder.

Then check with stripped bolt on next firing. Once you have resistance in the stripped bolt, then set die up to bump shoulders to your desired amount.

Basically, you just want to get the body and neck sized currently. You can also test fire a couple with no shoulder bump and make sure you don't end up with a clicker. You probably won't, but it's possible. If you do get a clicker, then just bump .001 or so since you're still a bit short on the case currently.

 

[CheapBasterd]

Take this with a grain of salt because I was just trying to figure out my reference fitments as well. I probably did this shit all wrong but heres what I did.

My once fired brass still dropped the bolt freely.
I added a piece of tape on the back which added .002 to the length and that did not let the bolt drop freely.
I took the tape off and I set my die so that it would not bump the shoulder of this fired brass but would size the neck. I'm thinking on the next firing it will exceed where it is now and my die is setup to where it will bump the shoulder back to what did let the bolt drop free.

 

[tsu45]

Always bump it back atleast .002...preferably 3-4 thou. Unless you want clickers , rounds that won't chamber as soon as it gets dirty or stuck cases when it rains.

It's asking for issues otherwise. Brass is a consumable that will last a very long time if you care for it properly. You will most likely loose it before you get split necks or loose primer pockets if you are reloading correctly.

Or don't and I guarantee you will run into one of those issues , probally at the worst time. You can either listen to people who learned the hard way or learn it yourself.

It’s the first firing, he doesn’t even know where his headspace is yet.

To your point about brass lasting, continually bumping the shoulder excessively to his barrels headspace will probably kill it faster than anything.

I bump to .002 under actual barrel headspace. With quality brass, rarely does it actually fireform all the way to actual barrel headspace on the first go. Usually on the second. Then set shoulder bump once and forget it for either the life of that barrel or lot of brass, whichever comes first.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

It’s the first firing, he doesn’t even know where his headspace is yet.

To your point about brass lasting, continually bumping the shoulder excessively to his barrels headspace will probably kill it faster than anything.

I bump to .002 under actual barrel headspace. With quality brass, rarely does it actually fireform all the way to actual barrel headspace on the first go. Usually on the second. Then set shoulder bump once and forget it for either the life of that barrel or lot of brass, whichever comes first.

His first firing is the reference point. Headspace does not matter.

Its more nuanced than that.

EXCESSIVELY bumping the shoulder back will result in more brass growth which will eventually result in a case head seperation but you need to bump more than .010 a shitload of firings with shitty brass for this to happen. .002 is fine for brest, fclass and guys who never shoot in bad conditions , get their brass or gun dirty or need to fire in excess of 200 rounds between firings. In field shooting, its recipe for disaster and could run an expensive trip.

I see minimal growth at .004 bump, I trim every firings and all its doing is cleaning up the chamfer.

I no longer have issues with brass not chambering, in fact i got about 200pc of lapua 6.5cm from a match 2 years ago that every 5th round wouldnt chamber, I will get around to pulling it down eventually but thats where i learned this lesson the hard way. Shooting in a monsoon with a dirty gun.

People take the .002 from the flcass talking heads becuase thats where the reloading craze of the last 5-6 years came from. We dont shoot their sport so we need to approach it from a different direction. We can learn a ton from them but need to adapt to our game.

Results speak for themselves. Sub 4 SD Sub 20 ES ammo that chambers everytime in every condition with zero clickers and holds waterline out to about 1450yds over the last 5,000+ rounds. Same, repeatable process everytime and still using the same brass from 2 years ago, now on the 5th and soon to be 6th barrel. Now if I could only shoot as good as my ammo is capable of, we would be on to something.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

If the stripped bolt falls free, then just set up your sizing die as far down as you can that doesn't lengthen or shorten the case at shoulder.

Then check with stripped bolt on next firing. Once you have resistance in the stripped bolt, then set die up to bump shoulders to your desired amount.

Basically, you just want to get the body and neck sized currently. You can also test fire a couple with no shoulder bump and make sure you don't end up with a clicker. You probably won't, but it's possible. If you do get a clicker, then just bump .001 or so since you're still a bit short on the case currently.

This is what I was going to say. I've got a bunch of 1x fired 6cm brass I've bought from others that are all short of my chamber by about 5 thou. So, I just played with my bushing die to get it to size the neck all the way down without bumping the shoulder. That way you set your neck the way you want and get the body sized but don't needlessly bump your brass back.

 

[tsu45]

His first firing is the reference point. Headspace does not matter.

Its more nuanced than that.

EXCESSIVELY bumping the shoulder back will result in more brass growth which will eventually result in a case head seperation but you need to bump more than .010 a shitload of firings with shitty brass for this to happen. .002 is fine for brest, fclass and guys who never shoot in bad conditions , get their brass or gun dirty or need to fire in excess of 200 rounds between firings. In field shooting, its recipe for disaster and could run an expensive trip.

I see minimal growth at .004 bump, I trim every firings and all its doing is cleaning up the chamfer.

I no longer have issues with brass not chambering, in fact i got about 200pc of lapua 6.5cm from a match 2 years ago that every 5th round wouldnt chamber, I will get around to pulling it down eventually but thats where i learned this lesson the hard way. Shooting in a monsoon with a dirty gun.

People take the .002 from the flcass talking heads becuase thats where the reloading craze of the last 5-6 years came from. We dont shoot their sport so we need to approach it from a different direction. We can learn a ton from them but need to adapt to our game.

Results speak for themselves. Sub 4 SD Sub 20 ES ammo that chambers everytime in every condition with zero clickers and holds waterline out to about 1450yds over the last 5,000+ rounds. Same, repeatable process everytime and still using the same brass from 2 years ago, now on the 5th and soon to be 6th barrel. Now if I could only shoot as good as my ammo is capable of, we would be on to something.

His first firing is not the reference point as his shoulder did not fireform to the chamber fully. He has no idea how far his unsized brass shoulder is short from the chamber headspace at this point. Could still be .001 off or .010 off.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

His first firing is not the reference point as his shoulder did not fireform to the chamber fully. He has no idea how far his unsized brass shoulder is short from the chamber headspace at this point. Could still be .001 off or .010 off.

Not fireformed? You are splitting hairs now no way its going to be off by 10 tho after first firing unless he has a completely fucked up chamber. SAAMI spec chamber with virgin lapua from SAAMI factory ammo.

Guys take virgin lapua brass , win 1 day matches then turn around and place at 2 day matches with once fired.

How many firings is enough to satisfy you? 2, 3, 5., 10?

 

[tsu45]

Not fireformed? You are splitting hairs now no way its going to be off by 10 tho after first firing unless he has a completely fucked up chamber. SAAMI spec chamber with virgin lapua from SAAMI factory ammo.

Guys take virgin lapua brass , win 1 day matches then turn around and place at 2 day matches with once fired.

How many firings is enough to satisfy you? 2, 3, 5., 10?

As stated previously, usually happens on the 2nd for me but it’s not a hard rule. He’ll know it’s fully formed when if fails the wheeler drop test he’s already added to his skill set and process. That’s the method I use as well as it’s a definitive indicator, no need to designate an arbitrary number of firings.

You do whatever works for you. Blindly bumping the shoulder back .004 with no regard for how far the fired shoulder is already setback isn’t something I would do or recommend.

 

[CheapBasterd]

Not fireformed? You are splitting hairs now no way its going to be off by 10 tho after first firing unless he has a completely fucked up chamber. SAAMI spec chamber with virgin lapua from SAAMI factory ammo.

Guys take virgin lapua brass , win 1 day matches then turn around and place at 2 day matches with once fired.

How many firings is enough to satisfy you? 2, 3, 5., 10?

and then what do they do with the brass when it no longer chambers?
They take measurements from that and then bump back down, right? Thats what the OP (myself included) are trying to measure from. Brass that doesnt chamber and work away from it as little as possible.

Not trying to be argumentative here. Genuinely curious. I do see your method makes sense as well.
Full length resize once that brass no longer chambers which might be after 3x or 4x. Which reduces the amount of times you work the brass.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

As stated previously, usually happens on the 2nd for me but it’s not a hard rule. He’ll know it’s fully formed when if fails the wheeler drop test he’s already added to his skill set and process. That’s the method I use as well as it’s a definitive indicator, no need to designate an arbitrary number of firings.

You do whatever works for you. Blindly bumping the shoulder back .004 with no regard for how far the fired shoulder is already setback isn’t something I would do or recommend.

The 1x fired brass I have ( though not fired in my chamber, it's from factory ammo and a SPR chamber), was anywhere from (with #375 , not a 400) 1.555 - 1.560. My fully formed fired brass measures 1.563 I believe though I'm not in front of my info. So, that's an .008" difference. I could see a .010" difference being possible also

 

[John Glidewell]

This subject again? Watch the sizing brass video. I think this video should be a sticky post.

Videos | wheeleraccuracy

www.wheeleraccuracy.com

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Always bump it back atleast .002...preferably 3-4 thou. Unless you want clickers , rounds that won't chamber as soon as it gets dirty or stuck cases when it rains.

It's asking for issues otherwise. Brass is a consumable that will last a very long time if you care for it properly. You will most likely loose it before you get split necks or loose primer pockets if you are reloading correctly.

Or don't and I guarantee you will run into one of those issues , probally at the worst time. You can either listen to people who learned the hard way or learn it yourself.

Yes that's correct. So like on my 6.5cm or 6cm I only bump about every 3rd firing. Now the 338lm or 300NM its ends up being every other firing and on the 375ct it after the 4th firing that case just never seems to grow much.
As for clicker's or cases getting stuck I have only run into that on the 338lm and it turned out to be a slightly to large resizing die. Sent it back to Redding the replaced issue gone.
Every one reloads differently you just need to find what works for you.

If the stripped bolt falls free, then just set up your sizing die as far down as you can that doesn't lengthen or shorten the case at shoulder.

Then check with stripped bolt on next firing. Once you have resistance in the stripped bolt, then set die up to bump shoulders to your desired amount.

Basically, you just want to get the body and neck sized currently. You can also test fire a couple with no shoulder bump and make sure you don't end up with a clicker. You probably won't, but it's possible. If you do get a clicker, then just bump .001 or so since you're still a bit short on the case currently.

What does it mean to get "a clicker?"

 

[John Glidewell]

What does it mean to get "a clicker?"

There is a video on this in link above. Should be another sticky.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

and then what do they do with the brass when it no longer chambers?
They take measurements from that and then bump back down, right? Thats what the OP (myself included) are trying to measure from. Brass that doesnt chamber and work away from it as little as possible.

Not trying to be argumentative here. Genuinely curious. I do see your method makes sense as well.
Full length resize once that brass no longer chambers which might be after 3x or 4x. Which reduces the amount of times you work the brass.

You're talking to someone who doesn't actually understand the nuances. A couple years ago he was citing ES because ELR shooters were incorrectly using the metric. Not long ago he incorrectly interpreted Mark Gordon's research into jump. And now he's confusing clickers and headspace issues.

Clickers happen when the body of the case has expanded too much. This comes from either not F/L sizing each time, F/L die not sizing down enough, or brass/chamber fit incorrect. The last reason still means the die isn't sizing the body down enough, but it happened because of something like we saw/see with PRC saami chamber and brass specs. The saami min chamber spec was too small for the saami max case width. So reamer makers and such started making reamers at saami max spec to alleviate the issue. Remember, F/L resizing can be done without pushing the shoulder back. Shoulder setback is not an inherent requirement of F/L sizing.

Headspace issues come from either too much or too little headspace. Meaning the brass is either too long or too short from base to shoulder. If brass is too short, it will either start expanding/stretching length ways in the web which will eventually result in a case head separation. Or it can be so short that the firing pin pushes the round forward instead of actually igniting the primer.

Too much headspace doesn't allow the bolt to close freely. This almost never shows up as a clicker. Long brass wants to extract, so it usually doesn't cause a stop that requires the extraction cam to be engage. If you're already around or over max pressure, the short headspace can start causing some brass expansion issues and such.



He's also completely wrong about the "F class and Benchrest" comment in regards to how much to set your shoulders back. There's nothing inherently different with how a bolt action works in F Class and PRS. If your stripped bolt falls free with gravity with only .001 shoulder setback, it's not going to have issues extracting unless there's something wrong with the brass itself.

What's also pretty funny is that F Class shooters are frequently running higher pressures than PRS. So they would actually have more issues with minimum shoulder setback if it was actually a real thing.


When people experience clickers and think bumping the shoulders further fixes it, it's more than likely they actually got the body of the case sized correctly when they screwed their die down further. They still have a die/chamber mismatch, but have alleviated the issue sizing further down and thusly setting shoulders back more.


In the end, will it hurt you to end up with shoulders set back .004 instead of .001? Almost certainly not. However, understanding what/why is important when other things start happening down the road.

 

[memilanuk]

He also has a comical misunderstanding of the level of cleanliness that F-class guns exist in - at least mine, here on the dry/dusty side of the Cascades. Then again, I'm that a-hole who when everyone else is saying "Cancel the match!", I say "This should be interesting - let's keep going and see who's shit still works".

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Davey like his failed business enterprises is failing at telling the truth. He's just making up a bunch of shit taken out of context.

I mentioned clickers twice and it wasn't even the point of the post. Keep riding that thread into the ground since it's all you have to stand on.

Go ahead and load up with no bump or .001 bump. I'm going to be laughing at you when tour shit doesn't work just like I was laughing at 2 top shooters (including one who lies about rangefinders) have to leave a match after day 1 becuase their ammo was shit due to bad sizing/over pressure in a monsoon.

There is a set of precautions one can take to eliminate ammo issues. Most don't becuase they either haven't experienced it yet or don't understand it. Paying 2k to travel across the country to shoot, ensuring ammo works everytime is important.


And don't give me this fclass and br shit is just as dirty. You got people who don't even clean their brass. You can control every piece of ammo and keep it from touching thr ground. Our shit is more Mudd than brass sometimes depending on venue and weather. Davey should know this, gona be a Mudd fest next week in Texas.

There is a huge difference in the tolerances each equipment sets are designed to operate in. Pretending there aren't is just more ignorance from failed businessman/ 22 trainer/whatever he does.

 

[Evintos]

Take this with a grain of salt because I was just trying to figure out my reference fitments as well. I probably did this shit all wrong but heres what I did.

My once fired brass still dropped the bolt freely.
I added a piece of tape on the back which added .002 to the length and that did not let the bolt drop freely.
I took the tape off and I set my die so that it would not bump the shoulder of this fired brass but would size the neck. I'm thinking on the next firing it will exceed where it is now and my die is setup to where it will bump the shoulder back to what did let the bolt drop free.

If you wanted to set your sizing die using reference measurements, buy actual headspace gauges (go, no go or tape, field). Figure out if your chamber passes Go test and a No Go test (tape on Go gauge = no go). Measure the Go-Gauge (or which ever gauge/combo that your chamber fits) using a comparator. Measure your fired brass. That'll give you an idea as to how far the base to shoulder datum your chamber and brass are.

Set up your die to size the case body down (so you have clearance between the chamber wall) and size the neck, without bumping shoulders back or bump shoulders back, whichever. It all depends on how much clearance you want or need for your purposes (that is still within safe dimensional parameters).

 

[memilanuk]

And don't give me this fclass and br shit is just as dirty. You got people who don't even clean their brass. You can control every piece of ammo and keep it from touching thr ground. Our shit is more Mudd than brass sometimes depending on venue and weather. Davey should know this, gona be a Mudd fest next week in Texas.

Pretty sure I've shot more tactical matches over the years than you have F-class. I've had shit blowing into actions, triggers, barrels in F-class matches - and we kept going. I've also shot tac matches where everything was rainbows and sunshine. You look at the forecast, you prep accordingly, or you stay the fuck home. BR, I can't say. They shoot up on benches, and under covered firing lines way more than I ever have.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Pretty sure I've shot more tactical matches over the years than you have F-class. I've had shit blowing into actions, triggers, barrels in F-class matches - and we kept going. I've also shot tac matches where everything was rainbows and sunshine. You look at the forecast, you prep accordingly, or you stay the fuck home. BR, I can't say. They shoot up on benches, and under covered firing lines way more than I ever have.

Does your brass touch the ground? Fall into Mudd puddles? Get thrown against rocks, car doors and connexs? Land in piles of gravel with sand? End up in huge piles of shit with 12 other guys brass to sort through on a clump of grass?

Not even close to the same. But keep on going, it's entertaining.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

He also has a comical misunderstanding of the level of cleanliness that F-class guns exist in - at least mine, here on the dry/dusty side of the Cascades. Then again, I'm that a-hole who when everyone else is saying "Cancel the match!", I say "This should be interesting - let's keep going and see who's shit still works".

Yea, pretty entertaining. F Class rifles need to run similar to PRS except for the mag feeding.

The difference is the precision required on target. Not the clearance in the chamber.

 

[orkan]

Two good videos that will help you OP:





Several more that reference this topic on my channel as well. The short answer is, you don't want to be setting shoulder bump on 1x fired cases.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Two good videos that will help you OP:





Several more that reference this topic on my channel as well. The short answer is, you don't want to be setting shoulder bump on 1x fired cases.

Exactly. How else would you get 103% hit percentage on Prarie dogs gerg.

 

[CheapBasterd]

Several more that reference this topic on my channel as well. The short answer is, you don't want to be setting shoulder bump on 1x fired cases.

What about the method that I did by adding tape to a 1x fired piece which added .002 to the length and couldnt close the bolt?
Was it a silly attempt to try and find a workable reference point?

 

[orkan]

What about the method that I did by adding tape to a 1x fired piece which added .002 to the length and couldnt close the bolt?
Was it a silly attempt to try and find a workable reference point?

No attempts are silly really, if you learn something. Quite a lot of smiths that only run go gauges do that tape technique on their go gauge to turn it into a "no go" gauge.

 

[Slides]

What about the method that I did by adding tape to a 1x fired piece which added .002 to the length and couldnt close the bolt?
Was it a silly attempt to try and find a workable reference point?

That's an entirely reasonable way to find where it is.

 

[clcustom1911]

All depends upon if you're about groups, or your first requirement is it has to operate & go bang. Groups are one thing, but in today's world (as always) going bang is king with me.

This x 100. Has to chamber easily and go bang.

I personally FL size everything, every time.

Consistency = repeatability.

 

[6.5SH]

Pretty sure I've shot more tactical matches over the years than you have F-class. I've had shit blowing into actions, triggers, barrels in F-class matches - and we kept going. I've also shot tac matches where everything was rainbows and sunshine. You look at the forecast, you prep accordingly, or you stay the fuck home. BR, I can't say. They shoot up on benches, and under covered firing lines way more than I ever have.

It keeps the sun off you and mostly the rain until the wind blows it at you.

 

[Slides]

I'm a little confused about the mud comments, is there some match rule for PRS where you have to roll each round a certain distance on the ground/stomp on it before immediately loading it into your magazines for a stage?

Surely you are loading your magazines directly from an ammunition box?

Or is there a special rule you cannot clean your you brass to resize or bullet seat between competitions? If you get dirt on it it says with the brass forever?

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

This x 100. Has to chamber easily and go bang.

I personally FL size everything, every time.

Consistency = repeatability.

Yep, prefer my tools to work in all venues & environments to the point I use a S/B die on everything. Brass is cheap. That said, I do understand the gun games many play, but a gun is just a tool to me.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Ok, stupid newbie questions here, but here goes.

The OP is asking about bumping the shoulders back on his once fired brass, when he can still easily close the bolt on it. Several persons have responded that they FL size every time, but that does not necessarily mean you bumped the shoulders back, does it? Isn't that determined by the position of the FL sizing die in the press? Am I missing something here?

Others have posted about distance to the lands, but that is seating depth and not bumping the shoulders back? Again, am I missing something here?

Shouldn't you check the brass in the chamber and bump it back however many thousandths from the chamber rather than from where the shoulder is expanded to when it is once fired? It may not have expanded all the way up against the chamber at the shoulder area, right?

Please go easy with your answers. I am in the early stages of learning here, and a lot of my learning comes from reading here in the Reloading Depot section and asking these sorts of stupid questions when things are not clear to me from just reading.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Ok, stupid newbie questions here, but here goes.

The OP is asking about bumping the shoulders back on his once fired brass, when he can still easily close the bolt on it. Several persons have responded that they FL size every time, but that does not necessarily mean you bumped the shoulders back, does it? Isn't that determined by the position of the FL sizing die in the press? Am I missing something here?

Others have posted about distance to the lands, but that is seating depth and not bumping the shoulders back? Again, am I missing something here?

Shouldn't you check the brass in the chamber and bump it back however many thousandths from the chamber rather than from where the shoulder is expanded to when it is once fired? It may not have expanded all the way up against the chamber at the shoulder area, right?

Please go easy with your answers. I am in the early stages of learning here, and a lot of my learning comes from reading here in the Reloading Depot section and asking these sorts of stupid questions when things are not clear to me from just reading.

Thats a great question not dumb at all.

I'm sure not everyone does it the same but if it was me, I would take the once fired and hit it with the comparitor. Even if it chambered in the gun, I still want there to be plenty of clearance. Most people only sample check so you really dont know unless you test every piece of brass.

If I knew every piece chambered i would still bump it atleast .002. This ensures chambering with a dirty chamber.

People are worried about excessive brass growth. This is easy to measure for as you trim. Usually the first 2-3 firings will see the most material taken off. If you are still having to take in excess of .003-.005 of brass length off every firing, you can probably back the bump down to find a happy medium for chambering 100% and not destroying the brass. With my method of a ,004 or so bump the henderson is only taking off .002-003 and most of that is really just cleaning up the previous chamfer/trim.

Guys above will say I am bumping way too much but you will know through measuring and reading the brass. When you are 10x+ firings in and seeing no signs of CHS or web thinning, you know its working. Its not black or white, its grey.

Its a system. Does your loaded ammo shoot well, chamber easy, extract easy, seeing no negative signs on the brass, no issues with sizing, ect ect ect.

There are different philosophies here and depending on the type of shooting you are doing in different environments and field conditions; can all dictate what approach you take.

We tend to loose brass (or atleast I do) at a rate of about 5% per match. Assuming that you expect to get 20 firings max before you loose it. Reality is you will run into loss issues way before that and your brass batch will get small enough you just throw it out and start over.

 

[orkan]

Several persons have responded that they FL size every time, but that does not necessarily mean you bumped the shoulders back, does it?

Correct. You can (and should) FL size every time, but you set the die up a bit higher to not touch the shoulder until the case has been fully formed to the chamber.

The process goes like this:

1) Fire the case.
2) Measure headspace using headspace comparator.
3) Remove fire control from bolt. (kleinendorst tool)

Kleinendorst Bolt Disassembly Tool Remington 700

The Kleinendorst Bolt Disassembly Tool enables the operator to easily disassemble a firearm bolt for routine cleaning and other maintenance. The tool...

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4) Remove spring loaded ejector. (if applicable)

SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL SINCLAIR REMINGTON EJECTOR SPRING TOOL | Brownells

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(these seem to be perpetually out of stock)
5) Use universal decapper, and remove primer from case. (always get primers out of the way to eliminate false positives)
6) Test fit in rifle to ensure the stripped bolt falls.
7) Setup die so that it sizes the case, but does NOT bump shoulder at all. You want it close, but not too close, so the case is fully resized.
a. When you size the case, the case will grow in length, often including the headspace as well as OAL.
b. Wipe all lube off case before next step.
8) After sizing, test fitment in rifle again, to ensure full effortless bolt drop with resized case.

If it is still effortless on bolt handle drop, then you're good to load them up.

If you watch the videos I linked above in full, you'll have a much better understanding.


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[HerCoStarNTheBeaverPictur]

OP here, I appreciate all the insight and knowledge shared. I did measure all my fired brass (only 40 pieces) because I was hoping to find one long enough to get my headspace measured with. They were all fairly consistent.

I have decided to bump the shoulders .001 from my smallest case just to get them all consistent for my reloads. Not only will that make them all consistent, it will give me at least .002 from my chamber shoulder (some assuming going on here).

Since I’m a new reloader, I think this makes the most sense for me and will hopefully remove any potential unexplained problems (related to case size/headspace) when I’m shooting my ladder and recording velocity and checking for pressure signs.

 

[Evintos]

Ok, stupid newbie questions here, but here goes.

The OP is asking about bumping the shoulders back on his once fired brass, when he can still easily close the bolt on it. Several persons have responded that they FL size every time, but that does not necessarily mean you bumped the shoulders back, does it? That is correct. Isn't that determined by the position of the FL sizing die in the press? Yes. Am I missing something here? No


Others have posted about distance to the lands, but that is seating depth and not bumping the shoulders back? Correct Again, am I missing something here? You are not missing anything.

Shouldn't you check the brass in the chamber and bump it back however many thousandths from the chamber rather than from where the shoulder is expanded to when it is once fired? It may not have expanded all the way up against the chamber at the shoulder area, right? It's not really a matter of should, it's a matter of preference. Think about it this way, virgin brass dimensions chamber perfectly fine with generous clearance and no safety issues. 1st fire expands these dimensions and the sizing you do from here even if you bump shoulders back for whatever number will still likely result in dimensions that are larger than virgin brass. The case growth from your 2nd or successive firings from this dimension still wouldn't be as much as from virgin brass dimensions. This essentially puts you into the area of reliable chambering throughout most if not all conditions.

Multi-firing before bumping shoulders back 0.002" will give you minimal case growth/stretch (and more case volume) but also makes the case more susceptible to chambering issues in adverse conditions or fouled chambers. It depends on your environment and the system and how much clearance you might need or desire.

If you look up some cartridge/chamber specs, some have very little clearance designed in, others have more. So by design, you should err on the side of more clearance if you need reliability with cartridge/chamber designs that have relatively little clearance.

Please go easy with your answers. I am in the early stages of learning here, and a lot of my learning comes from reading here in the Reloading Depot section and asking these sorts of stupid questions when things are not clear to me from just reading. The nature of the internet being what it is, you may get shit from some people, but ask the questions anyways without fear.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Ok, stupid newbie questions here, but here goes.

The OP is asking about bumping the shoulders back on his once fired brass, when he can still easily close the bolt on it. Several persons have responded that they FL size every time, but that does not necessarily mean you bumped the shoulders back, does it? Isn't that determined by the position of the FL sizing die in the press? Am I missing something here?

Others have posted about distance to the lands, but that is seating depth and not bumping the shoulders back? Again, am I missing something here?

Shouldn't you check the brass in the chamber and bump it back however many thousandths from the chamber rather than from where the shoulder is expanded to when it is once fired? It may not have expanded all the way up against the chamber at the shoulder area, right?

Please go easy with your answers. I am in the early stages of learning here, and a lot of my learning comes from reading here in the Reloading Depot section and asking these sorts of stupid questions when things are not clear to me from just reading.

You're g2g. Some will incorrectly associate F/L sizing in tandem with setting the shoulder back. You can do both or you can do each separately. When you hear knowledgeable people adamant that you need to F/L, they are speaking about the body most of the time.

As far as the seating depth side of it, yes and no. Inconsistent shoulder bump will lead to an inconsistent distance from or into the lands (unless you're indexing off the shoulder to measure, but pretty much no one is). Even if you did index off the shoulder, there would be inconsistent case capacity with inconsistent shoulder bump. So, basically, like anything else you want everything consistent.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

@Evintos

What chamber conditions are you describing that would pose chambering issues of brass that still allows a bolt to fall free before firing?

Everyone keeps bring up "environment" and such.....the amount of dirt and debris that would have to get into the chamber to have feeding issues when the bolt falls free prior to firing.....would be quite a ridiculous amount. No matter if you bumped the shoulders or not. You have plenty of room if your bolt falls free with gravity prior to firing. That's quite literally the whole point of stripping the bolt to test the fit. You have plenty of room for any working conditions.

Also, there shouldn't be a "fouled" chamber. That would indicate something performing incorrectly.

 

[Evintos]

@Evintos

What chamber conditions are you describing that would pose chambering issues of brass that still allows a bolt to fall free before firing? Debris on cartridge that doesn't get wiped clean as it should be before feeding into a rifle and the accumulation of said debris in chamber as you feed more of the debris laden brass. Debris either from environment or from someone who doesn't clean their brass.

Everyone keeps bring up "environment" and such.....the amount of dirt and debris that would have to get into the chamber to have feeding issues when the bolt falls free prior to firing.....would be quite a ridiculous amount. No matter if you bumped the shoulders or not. You have plenty of room if your bolt falls free with gravity prior to firing. That's quite literally the whole point of stripping the bolt to test the fit. You have plenty of room for any working conditions.

Also, there shouldn't be a "fouled" chamber. That would indicate something performing incorrectly. Suppressed shooting with certain suppressors and calibers or improperly timed unlocking of gas operated semi-autos.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

You're describing very extreme scenarios and user error.

Completely different conversation. You don't size your brass for negligence or broken rifles.