Sidearms & Scatterguns First pistol ever, which one??

[stello1001]

Hello all,

So I practically suck shooting with a handgun. My brother has a 9mm Taurus, probably not a very good one (I really don't know). When I shoot with it, my hits are everywhere and anywhere, usually never on the center of the target tho. I've never been good with handguns in general but give me a rifle and it's a totally different story. I'm starting to get the idea that having a sidearm may or may not come in handy but would be nice to still have for when I go hunting (south Texas has smugglers and illegals). An injured hog situation may also call for having a handgun handy. Anyhow, any suggestions for a first handgun? I went in to a local gunshop and liked how a glock felt as I gripped it as well as a 1911. The guy behind the counter also recommended I handle a Sig. I did but didn't feel the gun fitting me as good as the prior two.

 

[brianf]

If the glock felt nice get that one.
Legendary reliability
Spare parts all over
Upgrades and mods all over
Resale is very good
Hi cap mags
My first was a sig 220 .45 loved it then and still love it, but they do handle a little different

1911 are wonderful but as a first pistol that you beat to piss, get a glock or sig

Also, try and take a class. You can learn a rifle but proper pistol is best with instruction.

 

[stello1001]

My concern with the glock is no safety. Sometimes, we go hunting as a family and the ladies like to get involved with target practice once we're back at camp.

 

[Precision Underground]

Whatever you get dry fire dry fire dry fire. It will clean your shooting up instantly. Dry fire on the range before every mag you shoot and you will see how much you are moving the gun in anticipation of the recoil.

 

[XLR308]

I'm pretty partial to both you listed.
All I own now is Glocks and a 1911 and one 22lr that is a 22/45 Lite that has the same grip and similar ergos to a 1911.
The G17C I had was always a very accurate pistol and ran pretty damn well with anything I Fed it just sold all my 9mm and condensed to only 45acp for simplicity.
If you like the Glock then I would check out the Springfield XD also.

 

[Precision Underground]

HK VP9. Pick one up and you will buy it.

 

[spaniel]

Nobody can tell you which handgun to buy. Fit is pretty personal. If it doesn't feel good in your hand and point naturally, you probably won't shoot it worth a damn.

I love 1911s but would not recommend for your first pistol.

The no-safety thing concerned me when I was new to pistols as well. Glocks actually have multiple safeties, which are automatically disengaged when you actually pull the trigger. If the gun is in a proper holster and proper trigger discipline is exercised, they are perfectly safe. If inexperienced or unexpected gun users are around a loaded handgun should not be loose with depending on a manual safety being your "safety".

9mm is a good choice for your first foray into pistols as well. You may come to love others but it's a comfortable starting point.

 

[strikeeagle1]

Learn to accurately shoot a .22, they are easy to handle and inexpensive to practice a lot! THEN, move on to larger calibers.

 

[SLG]

.22 for sure. It is really the best way to learn. And if you never learn, then you still have a .22 for finishing shots on game.

I would get a revolver, as you are learning how to shoot, not how to manipulate a specific gun. Learn how to manipulate a gun when you figure out which gun is best for you. A 4" K frame sized .22 is probably best, but it will be a bit big and heavy for field use down the road. I like a 6" K frame for learning to shoot (if you are a normal sized adult), and then a light J frame for .22 field use. Some don't like the idea of having to buy another .22. I do.

Lots of other choices too, of course. A used Ruger MKII, even a S&W M&P .22 will work well. Just less classy.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I dearly love my SIG's. P226 is grand !

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

When I first started shooting pistol I also got a used Dillon square deal for a great price. It’s just now starting to pay for itself but it allowed me thousands of cheap ammo to hone my pistol skills. Uspsa is also a super fun competition environment to work on pistol skills.

Glocks have a huge following if they fit you, the m&p 2.0 5 inch model fit me and my needs though for a low price point.

 

[Barryd]

I have a Glock 17 (9mm) and a Colt 1911 (45ACP). I like both and each shoot well. If I had to pick one based on my experience it would be the Colt.

 

[bigdaddydmd]

If you don't go with a .22 as a trainer I would recommend a 9mm. Cheap to shoot, not a lot of recoil, and a ton of manufacturers out there. Handguns are like shoes. They all serve the same purpose, but each maker fits the person differently and it is very subjective. Some dudes swear by Rocky boots but I like Danners. I don't like how Glocks point even though they are reliable and the "gold standard" for everyday use and carry. HK fit me like a glove, but I shoot my Beretta the best. Takes some trial and error until you find what works best for YOU!. Stick with a big name manufacturer like Glock, HK, SIG, Berretta, S&W, etc and its hard to go wrong. Finger banging a bunch of different guns at the shop will give you an idea, but you really don't know how they point and shoot for you until you get rounds downrange so having friends with pistols or a shop where you can rent before you buy is always beneficial.

 

[.30kal]

Glock 19.

 

[lht645]

If you want a safety try a Smith and Wesson M&P in what ever caliber you prefer but if pigs are on the menu maybe 45 or 40 Cal.

I also have a gen 5 Glock 19 which is a nice shooter, replaced my service G-22 which I shot until the armoror told me to let it rest 50k-75k rounds with zero problems

 

[spaniel]

Revolvers and semi autos are different beasts. The grip is even different. I do NOT recommend a revolver as an entry weapon if what you are really after is a semi auto. I like both but they are different and should be treated so.

I see nothing wrong with 22s, but I also see no reason to go with a 22 if a 9mm is an appropriate entry for you and you are OK with the ammo cost. My opinion didn't used to be as strong but with the quality downturn 22 ammo has taken I have fatigued on the FTF with bulk ammo...at least with 9mm you are already familiarizing yourself with reasonable self defense ammo...

 

[davsco]

hit a range that rents a good variety of handguns and try them all. that said, you really can't go wrong with a glock. very reasonably priced, super reliable, tons of aftermarket parts and accessories (holsters, mags, sights, trigger mods). if you want to spend a lot more, check out sti 2011's (double stack 1911's), very widely used in uspsa and 3 gun. 1911 great ergo's, sweet triggers, they're machines.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I dearly love my SIG's. P226 is grand !

Also, if you are looking for a low recoil, right fitting, sweet shooter, a Browning High Power is really nice. Only downside is the magazine/trigger disconnect. It can be bypassed, but you don't really want to modify it like that for a carry/personal defense sidearm. Also, it is single action only (they may have made DA/SA newer versions....).

I have never fondled one, but i hear the CZ 75's are very nice. If I weren't so heavily invested in Sigs, I'd buy a 75, just to try it out.

 

[SLG]

I have never fondled one, but i hear the CZ 75's are very nice. If I weren't so heavily invested in Sigs, I'd buy a 75, just to try it out.

And you would be wasting your time, as no finer gun than the 226/229 exists.

 

[Precision Underground]

If you don't go with a .22 as a trainer I would recommend a 9mm. Cheap to shoot, not a lot of recoil, and a ton of manufacturers out there. Handguns are like shoes. They all serve the same purpose, but each maker fits the person differently and it is very subjective. Some dudes swear by Rocky boots but I like Danners. I don't like how Glocks point even though they are reliable and the "gold standard" for everyday use and carry. HK fit me like a glove, but I shoot my Beretta the best. Takes some trial and error until you find what works best for YOU!. Stick with a big name manufacturer like Glock, HK, SIG, Berretta, S&W, etc and its hard to go wrong. Finger banging a bunch of different guns at the shop will give you an idea, but you really don't know how they point and shoot for you until you get rounds downrange so having friends with pistols or a shop where you can rent before you buy is always beneficial.

I agree. I have a .45 and a 9 and I never shoot the 45. 9 holds more rounds and is way more fun to shoot. Gun snobs will make fun but I have a Canik Elite that is the best handgun I have shot. It was barely under $350 and I would choose it over the glocks, CZs, and Sigs I have shot.

 

[Threadcutter308]

And you would be wasting your time, as no finer gun than the 226/229 exists.

Yeah, with my Sigs, I do find my wallet slamming shut when it comes to possibly buying anything else. Kind of an odd predicament for me to find myself in.

Do you have specific experience with CZ 75 series ? If so, please share..

 

[W54/XM-388]

I would suggest that you will probably be more accurate with a 1911 than with a Glock.
However a Glock is pretty simple, pull trigger goes bang that's about it.

A 1911 is fine piece of complex machinery that you need to spend a lot more time learning the ins and outs of it in order to be fully competent to use it to defend your life in a high stress sudden situation.

If you want to be a bit classier than a Glock, get a H&K VP9

 

[flyer]

Glock is easy to recommend, the safety issue is not an issue unless you like to dump it in to a loaded purse with a round in the chamber or you use a weird retention holster that gets your finger close to the trigger when you unlock.

1911 can be great too, just don't get a cheapo with a cast frame. You want a forging and if not a nice custom out of the box, a good foundation.

 

[RNWRKNP]

Glooooooooock 43 and 17. Love’m. 43 in a CYA and 17 in a Safariland? 4” Kimber Raptor 1911 is probably my favorite but for a no shit fur fly’n scuffle in shity conditions......Glock.

 

[Strykervet]

I'm not a pistolero either. But I carry daily. Either a 340PD in the pocket or that and a Glock 27 in a VM2 Milt Sparks holster.

So I'd say Glock, it's a good tool and it's not too expensive. It works when you want it to, it's simple and reliable. You'll need a good holster for it, like flyer said, you can't drop it in a bag or some shit like that. Make sure to get a good gun belt (a GUN belt!) and that VM2 holster is about the best you can get, you won't be sorry with it. I've had other carry rigs but after I started using this one it's all I use and all I've used in probably ten years.

 

[Gooldylocks]

Nobody can tell you which handgun to buy. Fit is pretty personal. If it doesn't feel good in your hand and point naturally, you probably won't shoot it worth a damn.

Disagree. Anyone can learn to shoot any pistol effectively. Just takes practice and, as mentioned above, lots and lots of dryfire.

 

[AK4900PA]

Hard to beat the M&P9 M2.0 for the money with the rebates going on. I just picked one up with a threaded barrel and suppressor height sights for $405 after rebate.

 

[Gooldylocks]

So I can add something helpful here rather than just sound negative like I was above:

Any of the polymer guns would be fine. I have owned a couple glocks, an M&P 2.0, shot the Q5, PPQ, 320, XDm... All are acceptable. Of the bunch I liked my 2.0, though a 320 or Q5/PPQ would probably be close seconds.

Personally I like the CZ P09. Very affordable, 19 round magazines, adjustable grip size, probably the beat value for a USPSA production pistol if you decide to go that way, and great CZ reliability. If you are looking at compacts the P07 is also a favorite.

Metal guns are the absolute jam, however I totally get not wanting to lug one around from a weight standpoint. But if you are open to the idea a CZ SP-01 could be pretty dope.

 

[Dirty8404]

My first pistol was a 1911.

I love Sigs, P229 is my favorite. The base model railed guns are the way to go, upgrade parts as you see fit.

I’d highly recommend a Glock 19 as a first pistol over anything else. You want night sights. It’s the Colt 6920 of the pistol world.

 

[brianf]

forgot to add about having others around and a manual safety.
saftey or not it is training the shooter, and being aware of new shooters.
if the new shooter is not taught to put the safety on, then the safety is useless etc.
if there are new shooters i never even take a shot i wind up watching everybody else.

rifles i always train..shooter ready...spotter ready..."click" off goes the safety. if me the spotter doesnt say anything the safety is on.

 

[Mr_Happyface]

Glock 19.

This. As far as handguns go (and I've shot a lot of them) this is in my opinion one of the best made.

 

[Mooncake]

If you're only going to buy one handgun (good luck with that) make sure you shoot a HK VP9 before you do. I'll bet you a dollar that you buy it.

 

[Gooldylocks]

Also, if you are looking for a low recoil, right fitting, sweet shooter, a Browning High Power is really nice. Only downside is the magazine/trigger disconnect. It can be bypassed, but you don't really want to modify it like that for a carry/personal defense sidearm. Also, it is single action only (they may have made DA/SA newer versions....).

I have never fondled one, but i hear the CZ 75's are very nice. If I weren't so heavily invested in Sigs, I'd buy a 75, just to try it out.

I am not trying to call you out specifically, but I have never understood the fascination with the Browning Hi Power. It is dated, not that comfortable, and ancient in appearance compared to the other options on the market. If you want a high capacity steel frame 9mm there are much better choices available. In DA/SA guns the CZs, Tanfos, or dare I say it those terrible Sigs, in SAO guns you have options from all three of those as well as 2011s, Para framed guns (Rock Island, Para, Remington, MAC, etc), Wilson X9... I just don't get it personally.

If I were made of money I wouldn't probably own or shoot anything but 2011s in various flavors. They are the most adaptable gun made, IMO

 

[SLG]

The Hi power is a classic, and it performs very well. Just benefits from a little care, like the 1911.

As far as STI's...if your interest is a fun gun, great, but if you want a proven hard use performer, then a gun that has a long service record is the way to go. The Hi power is not my choice for that, but it was getting it done long before the 2011's were being fixed up.

I know some of you like the STI's and you are welcome to your likes. The bigger point is that no STI has ever successfully passed a rigorous duty test. I prefer to carry guns that are designed for the job. It sounds like that is what the OP wants to get to, but since he needs to learn to shoot first, nothing beats a .22

 

[Luke]

It's hard to go wrong with any $500+ modern handgun. Get whichever one feels best to you, and if you have a range nearby that offers rentals it may be worth the $50 or whatever to shoot the ones that top your list, and help you firm up that decision.

I'll probably get boo'd out of the room for saying it, but I would not recommend a 1911 unless you just have to have one. They are great handguns, don't get me wrong, but they can (not always, but sometimes) be finicky to get running right. I had a brand new Springfield 1911A1 that had a variety of functional problems, no matter what ammo I ran through it, and even after a "tune" up by a qualified shop. On the other hand, a Springfield XD .45 and Glock 19 I have owned have never had a single malfunction even after thousands of rounds and not being cleaned regularly. They just work.

I'll chime in and say that my current favorite handgun is the Glock 19. They're not pretty or fancy, but for me anyway it's the perfect size - not too small, not too big, it has a large magazine capacity, I can shoot it accurately, it has never malfunctioned for me, and there are a million aftermarket parts for it. It's basically the AR-15 of the handgun world.

 

[Gooldylocks]

The Hi power is a classic, and it performs very well. Just benefits from a little care, like the 1911.

As far as STI's...if your interest is a fun gun, great, but if you want a proven hard use performer, then a gun that has a long service record is the way to go. The Hi power is not my choice for that, but it was getting it done long before the 2011's were being fixed up.

I know some of you like the STI's and you are welcome to your likes. The bigger point is that no STI has ever successfully passed a rigorous duty test. I prefer to carry guns that are designed for the job. It sounds like that is what the OP wants to get to, but since he needs to learn to shoot first, nothing beats a .22

I would never own an STI. I would however own 2011s. STI simply put doesn't make good stuff in my experience. And as far as I'm aware, no custom 2011s have ever been put to such a test, not that they would necessarily need to be. We aren't talking about going to war with the thing. Just carrying it as an EDC, or while hunting, or even as a police officer, with a small amount of maintenance they will run with anything else out there and shoot nicer to boot.

I have seen every single gun mentioned in this thread have issues. The Glocks that everyone loves and fawns over, the Sigs that have their obnoxious fanboys, the 2011s, the CZs and Tanfos... They all will fail. Proper maintenance (that isn't just cleaning, but recoil springs, hammer springs, extractors, ejectors, mag springs.. the whole nine yards) and good ammunition will prevent issues probably 99% of the time in 99% of modern handguns out there.

I completely agree about a 22 though. Get a MK3, 22/45, Buckmark or something and shoot up several thousand rounds learning how to do it.

 

[Snuby642]

I think some missed the mad hog / bandito protection part.
I would go with a full size, no mention of cc.
They just shoot softer than smaller offerings.

With full power loads should do the protection duties well.
Fun to shoot with down scale range ammo.

Go to any decent range and they will have demo guns,
Buy some ammo , hold / point all that look apealing to you.

Sort out the ones you like the feel of, shoot all of those.
Make a pick of what shot comfortable dont worry if not in the x ring.

Pay for a short instruction session, see if you improve, probably will.
If instructor tries to upsell you, shoot your choice and thiers side by side.
There are viable reasons you may not be able to tell yet, then again, a
salesman sad but occasionally true.
Maybe on a separate day if getting tiered.

By the second training session it should be apparent which works for you.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@stello1001 you've come to the wrong place to ask about pistols, so far you've just got opinions from a bunch of rifle guys that happen to own pistols. With the exception of Gooldylocks, he just might be the only real pistol guy on this site. He knows shit. Just for reference, a random sampling of his YT videos:

 

[SLG]

I would never own an STI. I would however own 2011s. STI simply put doesn't make good stuff in my experience. And as far as I'm aware, no custom 2011s have ever been put to such a test, not that they would necessarily need to be. We aren't talking about going to war with the thing. Just carrying it as an EDC, or while hunting, or even as a police officer, with a small amount of maintenance they will run with anything else out there and shoot nicer to boot.

I have seen every single gun mentioned in this thread have issues. The Glocks that everyone loves and fawns over, the Sigs that have their obnoxious fanboys, the 2011s, the CZs and Tanfos... They all will fail. Proper maintenance (that isn't just cleaning, but recoil springs, hammer springs, extractors, ejectors, mag springs.. the whole nine yards) and good ammunition will prevent issues probably 99% of the time in 99% of modern handguns out there.

I completely agree about a 22 though. Get a MK3, 22/45, Buckmark or something and shoot up several thousand rounds learning how to do it.

Obnoxious, check. I'd love to see how you get your points across in real life.

All guns can and do fail, that's not the point.

Actually, custom 2011's have been put to the test, and did miserably. Yet they were still adopted for a very brief period of time, and since they continued to do terribly, they were removed from service. You'll have to do some research if you want to know more.

Also, if you think "...not that they would necessarily need to be. We aren't talking about going to war with the thing. Just carrying it as an EDC, or while hunting, or even as a police officer, with a small amount of maintenance they will run with anything else out there ..." Then it appears that you have no relevant experience with guns that are carried for real.

 

[SLG]

@stello1001 you've come to the wrong place to ask about pistols, so far you've just got opinions from a bunch of rifle guys that happen to own pistols. With the exception of Gooldylocks, he just might be the only real pistol guy on this site. He knows shit. Just for reference, a random sampling of his YT

You obviously don't know much about the membership here. Which is to be expected. Nonetheless, I would not assume the level of knowledge of anyone here.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I completely agree about a 22 though. Get a MK3, 22/45, Buckmark or something and shoot up several thousand rounds learning how to do it.

In the Ruger, I'd recommend a Mark IV over a Mark III unless you get a really good deal on a Mark III, the ease of takedown and cleaning for the Mark IV makes it worth the upgrade.

 

[Gooldylocks]

I'm not being obnoxious, just pointing out the truth. STI =/= all 2011. Yes, they build 2011s. But frankly, they build bad 2011s. People on the pistol side of the house look at STI QC the same as people over here look at Remington or Savage QC. It is legitimately that bad. A Glock is built better than a lot of the STIs I've seen. (Hopefully this will all be changing soon, as they have brought on a bunch of new and excellent people to the company that are gonna try to right the ship).

The only custom 2011s I know of that were adopted were by a single SWAT team down in Texas if I recall correctly, and I don't remember reading anywhere that there were issues with them so much as the officers just didn't like them/they were too expensive. The department hung them up and sold them all years later, and now a bunch of guys are using them as USPSA limited guns.

I have plenty of experience with a very wide variety of handguns, both for gaming and for "real" work. I can tell you though, that the guns that are reliable in competition are gonna still be reliable for real work. Because they get infinitely more rounds through them, and a single malfunction can cost you a match so it is completely unacceptable to have anything but 100% reliability.

 

[Gooldylocks]

In the Ruger, I'd recommend a Mark IV over a Mark III unless you get a really good deal on a Mark III, the ease of takedown and cleaning for the Mark IV makes it worth the upgrade.

Good point, very very true. The MK4 is 10000% times easier to deal with than the older guns. It takes me pulling up youtube and a couple hours every time I want to clean my MKIII

 

[Snuby642]

I don't think a race gun is what the op is looking for.
Standard size protection that shoots well.
nite site availability and a rail for weapons light .

A couple of options for doing the wild hog two step in the dark.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I am not trying to call you out specifically, but I have never understood the fascination with the Browning Hi Power. It is dated, not that comfortable, and ancient in appearance compared to the other options on the market. If you want a high capacity steel frame 9mm there are much better choices available. In DA/SA guns the CZs, Tanfos, or dare I say it those terrible Sigs, in SAO guns you have options from all three of those as well as 2011s, Para framed guns (Rock Island, Para, Remington, MAC, etc), Wilson X9... I just don't get it personally.

If I were made of money I wouldn't probably own or shoot anything but 2011s in various flavors. They are the most adaptable gun made, IMO

No offense taken, it's all opinions here and everyone is entitled to their own. I find my Highpower to be the most comfortable pistol I own. That being said, I am "a rifle guy that has pistols", so Tony's observation below is not incorrect. I am over 60, have sligtly limited mobility and will probably never shoot in a match. Also, with as many other/good choices as there are today, I would likely never consider a Highpower for CC, particularly because of the mag/trigger disconnect. I do have a G17 that would be a much better choice for CC. While I love my P226, it is a lot bigger than the 17, so I would choose the 17 over the 226.

 

[Campguy308]

If you are leaning toward a Glock, I'd consider the 19. If you want a bigger pistol, consider the 34. No need for the 17 IMO. If the lack of a manual safety bothers you, consider a Springfield XD or S&W M&P. Being your first pistol, I'd stick with 9mm.

 

[SLG]

I'm not being obnoxious, just pointing out the truth. STI =/= all 2011. Yes, they build 2011s. But frankly, they build bad 2011s. People on the pistol side of the house look at STI QC the same as people over here look at Remington or Savage QC. It is legitimately that bad. A Glock is built better than a lot of the STIs I've seen. (Hopefully this will all be changing soon, as they have brought on a bunch of new and excellent people to the company that are gonna try to right the ship).

The only custom 2011s I know of that were adopted were by a single SWAT team down in Texas if I recall correctly, and I don't remember reading anywhere that there were issues with them so much as the officers just didn't like them/they were too expensive. The department hung them up and sold them all years later, and now a bunch of guys are using them as USPSA limited guns.

I have plenty of experience with a very wide variety of handguns, both for gaming and for "real" work. I can tell you though, that the guns that are reliable in competition are gonna still be reliable for real work. Because they get infinitely more rounds through them, and a single malfunction can cost you a match so it is completely unacceptable to have anything but 100% reliability.

Obnoxious is what you called people who like Sigs. I can think of some things to call people who think 2011's are duty worthy, but that would be counter productive, That was my point.

I'm not talking about a SWAT team adopting a few guns.

Lots of guys with real experience shoot competition. Most recognize that the two environments are not the same, and round count alone does not tell the tale. Some don't though.

Also, I see plenty of guns malfunction at matches all the time. I guess the other guys out there didn't get the memo about reliability and losing a match.

 

[Snuby642]

Why would anyone cc in hog / "hostile" country while on a hunt?
Or even while in town down there for me?
Open carry 45's seem to rule the day south and or west of San Antonio Tx

 

[ReaperMedic]

Glock 17. Get a proper holster. That is to say, not a nylon carrying case for your waist, but a proper holster with some retention and a way to solidly mount to your belt. Then go get training. Get to where you can hit what you are aiming at. Then check out your local IPSC shoot, the guys and ladies in my AO were super cool, had no issues showing me their guns and gear, and you cant get much better practice than shooting some IPSC.

BTW, I'm a pistol guy that just recently bought a precision rifle.

 

[Gooldylocks]

Obnoxious is what you called people who like Sigs. I can think of some things to call people who think 2011's are duty worthy, but that would be counter productive, That was my point.

I'm not talking about a SWAT team adopting a few guns.

Lots of guys with real experience shoot competition. Most recognize that the two environments are not the same, and round count alone does not tell the tale. Some don't though.

Also, I see plenty of guns malfunction at matches all the time. I guess the other guys out there didn't get the memo about reliability and losing a match.

If you are shooting a gun that regularly has issues, you will not win. Plain and simple, there are no two ways about it.

Round count doesn't tell the whole tale, no, but neither does dunking a gun in a vat of mud water or burying it in sand. Because that isn't real life either. Match guns get banged around, regularly shot upwards of 3 or 400 rounds in a day in the dust and rain and heat and cold. If anything I think that is probably a better metric of real life use for anybody other than the military.

If you have some info about an agency adopting 2011s, I'd love to see it, and see why they failed.

Also "obnoxious Sig fan boys" is kind of a widespread joke/running gag on the internet, that isn't actually calling anyone out as being obnoxious. They are generally defined by their overbearing support, gushing praise, and abusive-relationship-like adoration of all things Sig Sauer haha.