First Shot Always High and Right

[Realbear]

I have an Ruger Precision .22LR and ever since I got it the first shot is "always" high and right 1" - 1.5" at 50 yards. Then the remainder of the group is just fine. If I stop to load in a new mag (less than a minute) no problems. But if I stop long enough to reload 2 or 3 mags (5 or more minutes) then the next one is high and right. I have started just shooting the first one into the dirt bank and then beginning. I am mainly using CCI Standard Velocity .22LR but other ammunition does the same. I am using a Vortex Diamondback Tacticle scope and set the parallax each time I am out to the range.
Any thoughts on why this happens?

 

[Mr. Z]

Google search “snipers hide cold bore shift”. You will find all the answers you need. The short answer is dial for the difference on the first shot when the barrel is cold, then return to zero for all shots following, until you let your barrel completely cool again. At which point you need to dial on the difference again. It is completely normal and we all deal with it.

 

[Mr. Z]

Or just send one outside the area your trying to group in, then shoot your group.

 

[Shawn1492]

No such thing as cold bore shift. Your shouldering the rifle different. Or pulling the stock into your shoulder different. Or different check weld.

 

[Mr. Z]

It is completely normal and we all deal with it.

Or we act like it doesn’t exist. Believe what you want.

 

[ZY100]

Do a search on bedding with aluminum tape. I dont have one (RPR 22) and have not done it, it but a bud did to his Ruger and it cut out some of the fliers...

And some about here... https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/ruger-precision-rimfire-mods.6921968/ post #7.

ZY

 

[TACC]

Have a different shooter shoot the rifle. See if they have the same issue.

This is what I was wondering about also. I agree with it being something the shooter is doing.

At 50 yards and inch and 1/2 point change is a lot.

 

[Shooter_X]

Google search “snipers hide cold bore shift”. You will find all the answers you need. The short answer is dial for the difference on the first shot when the barrel is cold, then return to zero for all shots following, until you let your barrel completely cool again. At which point you need to dial on the difference again. It is completely normal and we all deal with it.

It's not completely normal, and " we all" do not deal with it.
The other misconception is that it can be corrected on a rimfire rifle by dialing in for the cold bore shot.
Sorry but this is wrong too. The cold bore shot in a .22 affected by the anomaly can go any which way and rarely, hits the same place twice. There are instances where 22's at 25 yards exhibit this and can shoot out of the target by as much as an inch or more.....this is at a mere 25 yards. You can imagine how far out that is at 50.

This makes a 22 completely useless for hunting or any survival situation. I have said this before and I will say it here for the first time.
If your gun flings the first shot from a cold bore , any which way, then your gun is not accurate. The first shot must count.
It is the most important shot from that gun. Hands down.

There are many many guns that benchrest shooters claim are accurate guns. Most , if not all of the benchrest guys will tell you that they have to warm their guns up before shooting for record. Guns like this are completely useless to me. You couldn't give me a gun that exhibits the cold bore flier syndrome. They are worthless pieces of shit fit for using as a tomato stake.
There is nothing worse and you cannot own a worse gun than a gun that exhibits this anomaly.

The benchrest guys will say, " Oh who cares I warm my gun up anyway and im only shooting target."
Fine and dandy. Lets hope you never have to use it in a situation where you only get one shot where you have to be silent and wait on that shot for hours or even days.

I could give two shits what shots 2 , 3, 4, and 5 do or if they make a 1/4 inch grouping.
Shot number 1, is the shot that counts the most.

This is a problem in the .22 rimfire industry, and it has been a problem for a very long time.

T.S.

 

[Mr. Z]

I’ll concede on rimfire. Haven’t been playing that game long enough to know every variable. Then again with the inconsistency in ammo you can’t. Good batch/bad batch, lot number sorting, tuner settings, yuck. The last thing I’ll say here is that the centerfire rifles I shoot for groups (3) all exhibit minor cold bore shift. Hunting rifles are zeroed for a single shot (with a cold bore), and when it is accounted for in one of many ballistic calculators it works.

I’ll see myself out.

 

[Shooter_X]

I’ll concede on rimfire. Haven’t been playing that game long enough to know every variable. Then again with the inconsistency in ammo you can’t. Good batch/bad batch, lot number sorting, tuner settings, yuck. The last thing I’ll say here is that the centerfire rifles I shoot for groups (3) all exhibit minor cold bore shift. Hunting rifles are zeroed for a single shot (with a cold bore), and when it is accounted for in one of many ballistic calculators it works.View attachment 7149141
I’ll see myself out.

I meant no offense to you sir. I've studied this for a very long time. I've seen the problem over and over and over, again.
There is an entire thread dedicated to this anomaly in the CZ forum over on Rimfire Feminist Central. Most often they try to attribute it to the not so illusive carbon ring. They will scrub new dimensions into the chamber in attempt to rectify the problem , to no avail.
A carbon ring has 0 to do with the problem. Most 22 rimfire rifles will exhibit this problem because as I said, it IS a huge problem in the rimfire industry that is well known by the manufacturers, that they overlook and do nothing about.

Most people do not even know if they have the problem or not and here is why.
Buy gun, scope gun, ........start shooting gun to zero in.............get gun zeroed in, gun is accurate.
It is not until they start missing things wildly on the first shot that they start to investigate.
Most will chalk it up to an errant load. And many will accept that it is just the way things are for a 22.
Some won't even admit that the problem exists. And then comments like, " I can still hit a squirrel, so no big deal.
But it is a big deal with squirrel hunting. And here is why. There have been too many instances to count where I had to thread a shot between limbs of trees through a window smaller than an inch. Or time a shot on a squirrel moving back and forth in a slight wind, on the tip of ......or at the very end of a limb. These are impressive shots , especially if you have a witness that you're hunting with. " Wow what a shot, how did you do that!" The first thing needed is a gun that does not throw the cold bore shot , any which way.

Here is an example of a target that I shot yesterday. They are shots 1 through 5 at 50 yards from a Vudoo gun that hadn't been fired for about a week. My guns are not kept in air conditioned rooms. Yet the temperature will still be slightly different from inside to outdoors. Not enough to cause condensation.
So the only thing that I did was allow the gun to sit outside for about 5 minutes before shooting this grouping. If you bring a gun from the inside to outdoors and moisture forms on your scope lenses, then that means it is also happening in the bore of the barrel. Which in turn wets the gunk thats in the barrel, which will not dry out nearly as fast as your lenses clear, or your barrel sweat disappears. This will indeed cause a flier. With a 22 , condensation in the bore is a big no no. This is why my guns are kept in a place where they are equalized.

So anyway here's the target. Feel free to call bullshit.

Apologies if you felt that I was flaming you up.
Be well,
T.S.

 

[littlepod]

So is there a solution besides buying a $2500 vudoo? 1.5" at 50 yards is pretty extreme though. My Tikka exhibits a cold bore shift about .5" high at 100 yards, but at 50, that translates to like .2" and at 25 it's negligible. None of these is enough to miss a shot in my matches thankfully.

 

[Stooxie]

So is the suggestion here that an "accurate" gun should exhibit zero difference between that first cold bore shot and the rest? As a hunter I have definitely experienced a lower POI when the gun and ammo are 28 degrees vs 78. Maybe an inch over 100 yards. Much more so with a stone cold suppressor (which also contributes barrel droop). Now, if we're talking left/right (windage), I agree-- and my guns don't shift POI like that. But surely there is some physical difference in the speed of chemical reaction, friction coefficients, bore constriction (no matter how minute), etc.

Or we talking about a completely different phenomenon? I am talking about centerfire rifles, is this just about 22LR?

-Stooxie

 

[Snuby642]

Are you starting with a cold clean bore that has a film of oil ?
Yes it's moving .

My 22 likes to get seasoned with about 20 rounds from that condition.
It's good for about 350-400 rounds from that no cleaning and no problems.
Shift is small on the first couple of cold rounds temprature dependant more so in the cold.

Also if your chamber / bore is filthy and it is cold out the gunk congeals up .




Part of that is the ammo.

And this is with cci sv.

I belive skinny barrels are worse on the temp thing.
If you dial in your gun at 60 degrees and then drag it out on a 98 degree day
With 22 sv your going to get movement..

If your shift is constant on the first shot thats easy to deal with.
Dial up the shift, before getting on target, shoot once and then return turret to zero.

Imho

 

[JMcBurn]

Why not bed the barrel like they do with ARs with locitite retaining compound?

 

[Shooter_X]

So is the suggestion here that an "accurate" gun should exhibit zero difference between that first cold bore shot and the rest? As a hunter I have definitely experienced a lower POI when the gun and ammo are 28 degrees vs 78. Maybe an inch over 100 yards. Much more so with a stone cold suppressor (which also contributes barrel droop). Now, if we're talking left/right (windage), I agree-- and my guns don't shift POI like that. But surely there is some physical difference in the speed of chemical reaction, friction coefficients, bore constriction (no matter how minute), etc.

Or we talking about a completely different phenomenon? I am talking about centerfire rifles, is this just about 22LR?

-Stooxie

You are describing dense air becoming a factor in this. While it's true that density does factor into POI, it has 0 to do with the cold bore flier problem.

Point number 2 as we discuss this: I will lead you to things that are rarely thought of in the science of inherent accuracy.

I tried to tell them over on Rimfire Feminist Central........but they condemned......you know, because they know it all.
If you prove one of their leaders wrong, all hell breaks loose because they can never be incorrect about anything and if someone points out misleading information.,,,,,look out. Very few, if any of those people have studied this the way I have.

Maybe I'll have better luck here. So here we go.
When you reference inherent accuracy levels while shooting in 28 degree weather, you should be aware that the composition of your entire gun changes. I'd bet you didn't know this. Or maybe you do, considering I went back and red your post again where you reference " constriction."

Every metal component in that gun changes. It's not the same gun as it were in 78 degree weather.
This of course will indeed effect accuracy.
All metal components will contract. This includes the barrels bore. And its chamber.

There are instances with 2 -8 ounce triggers which function fine at 78 degrees. Bring the temperature down to 28 degrees, the gun will either slam fire due to partial engagement, or not engage at all, as the bolt just cams down with 0 engagement. This is caused by metal contracting. ( shrinking) Whatever youd like to call it.

Many years ago , Anschutz had an article about this concerning their Biathlon rifles. Anschutz would increase the bore dimension slightly in those guns for shooting in the extreme conditions you are discussing, in attempt to accurize the gun for extreme cold.
I wish I could find that again, but im afraid its long gone as this has been many years ago.

Other thoughts have risen with the claims that once a shot is fired that it heats the barrel enough to bring it back to normal.
This is NOT the case. It's not even close. Here is why.
Once your barrel reaches 28 degrees, it becomes a heat sink. Fire a shot, and before you can blink your eyes twice that barrel and bore has cooled back down likity split. Just as if a shot was never fired.
With 22's anyway. Centerfire may take slightly longer but the same applies to it.

T.S.

 

[Stooxie]

You are describing dense air becoming a factor in this. While it's true that density does factor into POI, it has 0 to do with the cold bore flier problem.

Point number 2 as we discuss this: I will lead you to things that are rarely thought of in the science of inherent accuracy.

I tried to tell them over on Rimfire Feminist Central........but they condemned......you know, because they know it all.
If you prove one of their leaders wrong, all hell breaks loose because they can never be incorrect about anything and if someone points out misleading information.,,,,,look out. Very few, if any of those people have studied this the way I have.

Maybe I'll have better luck here. So here we go.
When you reference inherent accuracy levels while shooting in 28 degree weather, you should be aware that the composition of your entire gun changes. I'd bet you didn't know this. Or maybe you do, considering I went back and red your post again where you reference " constriction."

Every metal component in that gun changes. It's not the same gun as it were in 78 degree weather.
This of course will indeed effect accuracy.
All metal components will contract. This includes the barrels bore. And its chamber.

There are instances with 2 -8 ounce triggers which function fine at 78 degrees. Bring the temperature down to 28 degrees, the gun will either slam fire due to partial engagement, or not engage at all, as the bolt just cams down with 0 engagement. This is caused by metal contracting. ( shrinking) Whatever youd like to call it.

Many years ago , Anschutz had an article about this concerning their Biathlon rifles. Anschutz would increase the bore dimension slightly in those guns for shooting in the extreme conditions you are discussing, in attempt to accurize the gun for extreme cold.
I wish I could find that again, but im afraid its long gone as this has been many years ago.

Other thoughts have risen with the claims that once a shot is fired that it heats the barrel enough to bring it back to normal.
This is NOT the case. It's not even close. Here is why.
Once your barrel reaches 28 degrees, it becomes a heat sink. Fire a shot, and before you can blink your eyes twice that barrel and bore has cooled back down likity split. Just as if a shot was never fired.
With 22's anyway. Centerfire may take slightly longer but the same applies to it.

T.S.

Ok, so we're in agreement (although I'll gladly assume you're the expert). Yes, I have experienced everything you describe, including how cold ejected cases will be for just a few centerfire shots.

-Stooxie

 

[Stooxie]

Are you starting with a cold clean bore that has a film of oil ?
Yes it's moving .

My 22 likes to get seasoned with about 20 rounds from that condition.
It's good for about 350-400 rounds from that no cleaning and no problems.
Shift is small on the first couple of cold rounds temprature dependant more so in the cold.

I read that advice on another forum and I stopped cleaning my barrels between range sessions. It was like the clouds of POI chaos finally broke and gave way to teeny tiny groups. Now I'll only clean a barrel when I figure it needs it, like at the end of hunting season, or after a brick of 22LR. Even, then, I know that gun needs to be "reset" with a whole bunch of rounds down range. My experience is that higher quality barrels exhibit less clean vs dirty POI shift (for a number of reasons), but I never expect a known POI from a clean barrel.

-Stooxie

 

[Snuby642]

@Stooxie
I agree a dirty 22 and even a dirty ar will run fine throughout the summer into early fall.
But when that same gun all of a sudden wakes up in 32 degree weather that sludge
will harden and give you a fit.

Dont get caught out on a hunt with that happening.
I have that t shirt, 75- 80 one day 30 ish the next and rounds would not chamber,
Wwwattt? To dirty for the cold, did not know it was a thing since most of my life a
Barrel got cleaned every day it was shot.

Old dog ways.lol

Edit: I guess a match chambered barrel would choke up sooner?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Google search “snipers hide cold bore shift”. You will find all the answers you need. The short answer is dial for the difference on the first shot when the barrel is cold, then return to zero for all shots following, until you let your barrel completely cool again. At which point you need to dial on the difference again. It is completely normal and we all deal with it.

If your rifle has a noticeable and repeatable cold bore shift, unless it’s in some sort of extreme temperature, there’s a problem.

It might be an issue with the barrel’s heat treat, the bedding, etc etc.

With modern rifles, you should not be experiencing a consistent cold bore shift without an environmental explanation or a mechanical deficiency.

 

[Arkansas shooter]

I'm having the same issue. Is it riffle, ammo, or shooter error that's my issue? I'm shooting an RPR 22 at 50yd 5 round group and haven't noticed it with my other

 

[Shooter_X]

I'm having the same issue. Is it riffle, ammo, or shooter error that's my issue? I'm shooting an RPR 22 at 50yd 5 round group and haven't noticed it with my otherView attachment 7159286

This is terrible. You have a real problem on your hands.
That is entirely unacceptable and demonstrates exactly what I've been talking about for years.
That is not shooter or ammo error. Even the lousiest shooter in the world can shoot better than that and would have to be trying to get that far out at 50 yards.
T.S.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I'm having the same issue. Is it riffle, ammo, or shooter error that's my issue? I'm shooting an RPR 22 at 50yd 5 round group and haven't noticed it with my otherView attachment 7159286

I’d be documenting it and sending it back to Ruger.

 

[Cuzz]

Its been my experience that some barrels have the cold bore problem and some dont. A good aftermarket barrel will be less like to have the problem than a factory barrel. Yours doesnt sound like its very bad.

 

[littlepod]

I'm having the same issue. Is it riffle, ammo, or shooter error that's my issue? I'm shooting an RPR 22 at 50yd 5 round group and haven't noticed it with my otherView attachment 7159286

Is that a cold bore, or a cold and clean bore? Though that much shift is still uncalled for. After a very thorough cleaning, my very first shot out of the rifle @ 100 yards is usually about 3" low. To have what looks like 5" to the right @ 50 is just ridiculous.

 

[Shooter_X]

Is that a cold bore, or a cold and clean bore? Though that much shift is still uncalled for. After a very thorough cleaning, my very first shot out of the rifle @ 100 yards is usually about 3" low. To have what looks like 5" to the right @ 50 is just ridiculous.

You would be surprised if you knew how many guns exhibit this problem. It's a problem in the industry.

 

[Mech_eng]

I want to say first of all, centerfire rifles do not typically suffer from this condition in my opinion and experience. I could be wrong here but I think CF bullets have copper jackets to reduce lead fowling in a barrel. In contrast, match type rimfire bullets use a lubricant instead of a copper jacket. Some bullets use a wax based lube and some use more of an “oil” based lube. I have experienced regular first round fliers in a rimfire consistently(yes it’s an Anschutz and not a Vudoo....lol). I’m not saying 100% that it is not a “cold shooter” issue but I seem to see it more often in RF than CF.... There are other “arena’s” in my life when I have dealt with “old lubricant”(back when I used to go “multiple rounds ?) and it caused problems. What I learned is that all is good after you lay down some fresh lube ! Flame on!

 

[RAVAGE88]

This is a very interesting topic and, as a designer/gun builder, I can say I've seen lots of cold bore issues in CF and RF. So much so, that I conducted an extensive experiment on the subject over quite an extended period of time. I don't want to get too technical here or start an endless debate, but what I'll say is, all the platforms I've seen with the issue share a few key mechanical commonalities regardless of price range, etc. There are times that ammo is the source of fliers, but you'll see that regardless of cold bore vs warm bore. Weather conditions or whether the rifle is cold or heat soaked also has no bearing on the issue.

MB

 

[JMcBurn]

This is a very interesting topic and, as a designer/gun builder, I can say I've seen lots of cold bore issues in CF and RF. So much so, that I conducted an extensive experiment on the subject over quite an extended period of time. I don't want to get too technical here or start an endless debate, but what I'll say is, all the platforms I've seen with the issue share a few key mechanical commonalities regardless of price range, etc. There are times that ammo is the source of fliers, but you'll see that regardless of cold bore vs warm bore. Weather conditions or whether the rifle is cold or heat soaked also has no bearing on the issue.

MB

Any specifics on technical aspects? Just interested personally.

 

[vaguru]

This is a very interesting topic and, as a designer/gun builder, I can say I've seen lots of cold bore issues in CF and RF. So much so, that I conducted an extensive experiment on the subject over quite an extended period of time. I don't want to get too technical here or start an endless debate, but what I'll say is, all the platforms I've seen with the issue share a few key mechanical commonalities regardless of price range, etc. There are times that ammo is the source of fliers, but you'll see that regardless of cold bore vs warm bore. Weather conditions or whether the rifle is cold or heat soaked also has no bearing on the issue.

MB

I'm sure many like myself are interested in your findings.

Without going into great detail what were the top reasons you found for this issue?

 

[bobtodrick]

misfire

 

[bobtodrick]

Well if that ain't the kettle calling the pot black.