PRS Talk Fixing PRS classes, New Class: Spec Class

[Crabcore]

There has been a lot of talk lately about the class structure in PRS as well as rules changes. I have been thinking a lot about this and wanted to put forth my ideas for what I would change. I am a middle of the pack shooter, but have been shooting competitions for the last 5 or so years, including a handful of 2 day matches. I am never in any danger of winning a match, but just enjoy getting out and shooting. I imagine most people at matches are similar; not out there to hunt a trophy, but just enjoy themselves and test their skills.

Here is my proposal.

First, I would get rid of all classes aside from Open. No one shoots Tactical; it can just go away. Production class is, as it currently stands is a big joke. The participation is not all that high, and the price tag discourages new shooters from trying it. If this is a class designed to bring people into the sport, it is failing spectacularly. When it is cheaper to shoot open than the "cost-controlled" class, I think the people running the PRS need to sharpen their pencils.

I like the idea of a cost controlled class, and also an affordable class as well. I also like a lot of ideas people have floated about weight and caliber limits. I don't expect a spec class to ever materialize, but I think it would be actually good for our sport.

Here is what I would have for an entry level "Spec Class"

the rifle would be a Savage 110 Tactical
Savage 110 Tactical

This rifle is 700 dollars or less at local stores like Cabela's. It comes in several colors, is available in right or left handed models, takes AICS mags, has a 20 MOA rail, and threaded muzzle. And also has spacers to adjust length of pull and cheek comb height. Trigger would be left stock.

caliber: 6.5 creedmoor. This is a readily available cartridge with good match ammo. It can also be shot in open if people want to move up.

Bipod: Harris 6-9 BRMS

bags: Armageddon Gear Schmedium gamechanger. or maybe regular gamechanger. This is a piece of gear which people will use if they shoot open too. I don't like people buying ancillary equipment which won't grow with them.

Scope: something like a Vortex diamondback tactical, or Athlon Ares BTR. Something around 400 bucks, usable turret, and decent magnification that doesn't break the bank. The PRS could/should get someone to be the "official scope of PRS spec class" or something similar. that would need to get hashed out behind closed doors and probably some money would change hands.

Rings: Vortex Precision matched rings. These are around 100 dollars. New people should not need to buy or feel they need to buy 400 mounts.

Ammo: factory or handloads. I think factory ammo can get expensive, and basic reloading setups can be had for a few hundred dollars. There is not a need to penalize people who already reload, or who want to learn. If those same people shoot open someday it is a good skill to have. By using a lower end factory rifle, it is unlikely the ammo will be able to give someone too much extra advantage. That is my hope anyway.

magazines: Magpul AICS 10 round mags.

Muzzle device: This is one area I would leave a little more open. I am biased to allowing suppressors, but that also opens it up for brakes. My current thought is allow a suppressor or brake, but limit the brakes to 3 ports or less and without tuning holes or weights.

Ballistic calculator: I use an iPhone and basic Kestrel. It would be hard to ban or limit the use of something like the Kestrel, so unfortunately this is one expensive accessory which would be allowed. Atmospheric data is needed to safely engage targets at long distances.


things not allowed:
aftermarket barrels: if you burn out the barrel on this buy a new rifle or re-barrel and shoot open.
spotting scopes
tripods
any other bags besides the gamechanger
binoculars
slings (other than for carrying the rifle between stages)

Part of what makes the current production class so expensive, is the amount of accessories people need or think they need. If that was all banned from the get-go it will even the playing field. If everyone is limited to the same "toolbox" to solve the stages, it should eliminate so much of the money race.

This would also give new shooters, or even experienced shooters and exact list of what they need to buy. When someone says "what rifle should I get to start shooting matches?" they can be pointed to the list. This lowers the barrier to entry, and also the anxiety of attending a match where you will shoot against guys with $10,000 rigs. By creating an exact spec, it also creates a class with a weight limit. No one should be bolting on any weights, plates, or whatever else gets invented this year.

looking at this list we come out with a very reasonable entry point
rifle: 700
scope: 400
rings: 100
bipod: 120
bag: 100
muzzle brake: 0 to 150 (obv a can is a lot more)
extra mag: 40 (not on sale)

This whole list comes out to $1610 dollars. That is a lot easier sell to people than $5,000 for a "production class" rifle which doesn't include rings, or a bipod, bags, or anything else.

I hope I'm not the only person thinking along these lines.

 

[sachsmart]

Good starting point. As someone looking into shooting my First match in a couple of months & already 3k plus in, I completely support such an initiative

 

[Crabcore]

In a perfect world, you should be able to go to your local gun shop, buy the rifle, and then go to the PRS website and buy a "spec class kit" with the rest of the gear in it. That would make it so easy for everyone. If they offered that at a discount with a membership, their numbers would probably go up too.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I shoot tactical but with the new gap and other rifles production is just stupid.

 

[7mmMato]

Unique idea.

 

[Newbie2020]

Agree 100%. But I would open the rifle up to include Rem 700 BDL, Tikka CTR, Ruger American, etc factory stock hunting rifles.

I like the spec idea but that kind of also defeats the purpose in that it excludes tons of shooters who don’t already own that rifle.

The rest is spot on imho

 

[kindabitey]

Why not allowing spotting scope/ binos and tripod?

 

[Crabcore]

Why not allowing spotting scope/ binos and tripod?

Those are all expensive items which create a competitive advantage for people with deeper pockets. Eliminating them levels the playing field and keeps the cost down. If there was one guy with a RRS tripod and Swarovski Spotting scope looking at trace, he would have an advantage and anyone else trying to compete would need to buy those things as well. I know that the cost of some of these peripheral items keeps people from coming out. No one wants to show up and feel "less than".

 

[kindabitey]

I'm assuming this would be just for the ones in the "spec class" only?

 

[Crabcore]

I'm assuming this would be just for the ones in the "spec class" only?

Yes, the list of things not allowed would only be for this proposed spec class.

 

[kindabitey]

Yes, the list of things not allowed would only be for this proposed spec class.

So what's to keep them from walking over to their buddy, who is shooting open class, and using his Swaro spotter?
Folks use my Leica binos all the time at matches to get a look at targets prior to shooting a stage.

 

[665.0coupe]

So what's to keep them from walking over to their buddy, who is shooting open class, and using his Swaro spotter?
Folks use my Leica binos all the time at matches to get a look at targets prior to shooting a stage.

Nothing will stop people from looking through other peoples binos/spotters.

I don't like the idea of not letting people use tripods/binos/spotters. I get the whole keep the cost down idea, but you have to be able to see the targets to shoot them. Most of the time it's very hard to see the targets with the naked eye. Are you going to allow the guys in this class to find the targets with their scope before they shoot, or are you going to make them shoot every stage blind? If you let them find them with the scope that is going to add a lot of time for each shooter to find every target and figure out whats going on before they shoot. Obviously shooting blind isn't good for the new guys.

Honestly they need to be pushed the other way. They need to be encouraged to spend as much time as possible on glass watching trace, learning the wind, and figuring out the flow of the stage. That's how they are going to learn and advance in the sport.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I see this both ways. I went from being a teacher, where I made $50K and my wife stayed home and took care of the kids to being a builder where my wife is an integral part of the business. I now make a much better, but still modest for Snipershide, living.

When I was teaching I ran a rifle setup that was sub $2k for everything. I was able to be somewhat competitive with that setup and I would save and get things like binos and tripods as I could. My main expenses were reloading, rebarreling, and travel. The more stuff I bought, the less I could afford to shoot.

After making a career change, the better stuff does provide a small advantage. The biggest advantage was being able to shoot ALOT more. The reality is, no matter how much I can afford to shoot, I am not willing to squander the things I would need to in order to shoot enough to be really competitive. My business and my relationships with my family would suffer. Someday, I might have more time and can attempt to be competitive with less consequences.

We constantly talk about gear and the advantage it provides. The better I get at this, the more I realize that the gear is the last thing that is holding people back. The guys that are the prs greats make a huge commitment to their success both financially and from a time perspective. In order to be as good as they are, most shoot a ton in practice and also shoot a ton of matches. Their major expense is in travel, match fees, and ammo. When you add up the cost of the sport as a whole, a $10k gun/optic setup is the cheap part. That is why guys have it. It makes the experience more enjoyable.

I think you could have one of the top guys run a Savage or an RPR for a season and they would still finish in relatively the same place. If you limited them to only 2k rounds per season for 3 years, you would start to see their ability fall off a little.

We need to understand what it takes to be the best at something competitive on a national level. Very few people have the means and drive to get there. One, without the other, is not good enough
Instead of thinking we all need to be the first to walk the prize table, we should do this for the enjoyment and camaraderie of it. There is nothing wrong with being good at it, or being driven to be good at it, but everyone cannot win every match.

Everytime I see these discussions come up, it bothers me that our society feels so entitled to the feeling of being "a winner" that people refuse to enter until the have "the gear they need to be competitive." As if gear is the most important part of shooting well. What about the experience, or the drive that is needed to be competitive. Why aren't we talking about that?

I understand "it is what it is," and "people will be people." This conversation has been had since I started shooting prs and will likely continue into perpetuity. It is an interesting conversation and I enjoy trying to figure out how to include new people. I just don't personally think the focus on gear is the answer.

If guys can be competitive with Savages and RPRs, maybe the focus should be on training and education, not gear.

 

[JMGlasgow]

You lost me at Savage, no bag other than gamechanger, and Harris.

Savage rifles are garbage. You can't polish that turd enough to make it a good reliable rifle. I've tried.

A gamechanger is not a rear bag, and a TAB Gear or other proper rear bag is around $20-$30.

Let's face it, Harris bipods just suck. They are out of square, made from sheet metal, and break fairly often.

As far as scopes, the Diamondback is basically unusable as far as glass and consistent turrets, and the Athlon Ares BTR lists at $1000.

Barrels wear out. Telling someone to replace their rifle when the barrel burns out is stupid. I can rebarrel a Remington or Savage for less than $400. Limiting it to only 6.5 Creedmoor is also stupid. That barrel lasts roughly 2500 rounds, and some people shoot that in a year.

This is how our local matches are set up for scoring.

This is taken from wycoprl.com

1. All competitors will begin the season “unclassified”. The competitors’ first three scores of the season will be used to classify each competitor. These classifications will carry over to each new season. The class tiers are as follows:
   • “A” Class – Scores greater than 80% of match-winner
   • “B” Class – Scores greater than 55% but less than or equal to 80% of match-winner, two consecutive match results exceeding 80% will result in competitor moving to A-class
   • “C” Class – Scores less than or equal to 55% of match-winner, two consecutive match results exceeding 55% will result in competitor moving to B-class
     You can “class up” but you cannot “class down”. This means that if you initially classify as a “B” shooter based on your first three (3) scores and continue to improve throughout the year, resulting in two (2) consecutive match scores over 80%, you are now permanently an “A” shooter. Certain circumstances may allow a shooter to “class down” and will be handled on a case-by-case basis.
2. WYCO PRL points will be derived from the individual match scores. The top shooter for each match will receive 100 WYCO points, each shooter will receive WYCO points as a percentage of the match winners’ points.
   Example:
   • • Match winner gets 69 out of 81 possible points – Receives 100 WYCO points
     • The next highest shooter gets 67 points – 67 is 97.101% of 69 – 97.101 WYCO points
     • 13th place shooter gets 41 points – 41 is 59.420% of 69 – 59.420 WYCO points

 

[DJL2]

USPSA gets lively participation in both Production and Carry Optic as well as Single Stack, Limited and Open...clearly, there's an effective way to regulate a sport and run multiple divisions. I think it starts with not allowing competitors to show up with whatever the hell they want with no effective difference between divisions other than the supposed cost on the one hand, and caliber on the other.

USPSA production, for example, isn't about how much you spend (and some people spend a LOT)....it's about the features of your pistol and your gear. How it operates, how much it weighs, how many rounds in the magazine, what sights are on it, what gear you can use and how its allowed to be setup...basically, those things that define the weapons effective performance envelope. You can spend a ton of money on a Production gun or you can (sorry for the IDPA crossover here) be like Dave Sevigny and smoke the entire field with a stock Glock 19.

Single Stack and Production are both relatively accessible to new USPSA shooters or shooters on a budget not because of formal cost limits on the gear, but because of the effective performance limits on the gear that you can shoot (regardless of what it costs).

 

[Lowlight]

PRS rifle and handguns have nothing in common

Consider the costs, Production Class in the PRS is a $5000 rifle

 

[Crabcore]

One thing I don't think I conveyed well enough, is that this would be a class for people who are either just getting into the sport, or guys who want to go shoot a match and have a good time without breaking the bank. Open class will still be there for the guys who want to be ultra competitive. If you approach this class with the mindset of how best to game it, you are coming at it from the wrong direction.

I really like the idea of looking at what other hobbies and sports do to retain and build their numbers. My inspiration for this idea came from the world of RC truck racing. We had a local track with a few fast guys and ran the normal truck classes. The cost of entry kept going up and it was more difficult to get people started. And we are talking only about $1000 for a decent truck here.
Traxxas comes out with this junky truck, but it was cheap, and it was fun. It cost $200 ready to go. They created a spec class out of it. You ran the truck from the box, period. Within 3 months, track participation was up about 400% and 3/4 of people at the track were running this cheap spec class truck. A lot of these guys then went on to buy fancier race trucks for the other divisions.

That is my goal with this. Have a low barrier to entry, and have it be fun. Some people will stay in the class and enjoy themselves, some will start in the class and then move up as they get more competitive/serious.

There is no way to completely spec a class and make everyone happy, but I think this can be a good starting point for a conversation.

 

[Lowlight]

You cannot put a dollar value on a product or production class, or any class,

Dollar values are a minimum not a maximum, the Production class is suffering because of this fact,

The balance with a precision rifle is different from a handgun because of things like wind.

Wind resistance can be directly attributed to caliber and speed of the bullet shot, in handgun shooting there is no wind component, where I put my finger is where the bullet goes, (if I do my part) that is not precision rifle shooting.

the only way to balance the equation and put it in the shooters' hands better than 75% is to match the system exactly, we are not doing that, we have open guns shooting alongside limited ones. It's a run what you brung event.

So really you can't have a production class, unless it's purpose build and stated that, X is production, you can't have a production class that let's you spec a rifle or use parts where the costs are adjusted for the moment. A 20" production gun cannot compete alongside a 26" production gun in a different caliber unless you say, everything is closed and must be specified.

 

[Matt15598]

I am a fairly new shooter in this sport having only done it for three years. When I bought my first rifle it was not up to the task. The first thing I did was to put it in a chassis. Thus immediately taking me out of production div. It might be a better idea to put a cost cap on the entire setup. Like say 2500. That includes everything. Then you could make the competitors keep a list of what the used and have have printouts of the cost off dealer website for proof. They then could use whatever they want, say a caldwell bipod vs an atlas to put the extra money in to a better optic.

 

[Lowlight]

No,

You don't spec the rifle, that is stupid, you do Open or Limited

Rifles have to be rebarreled, new triggers, stocks as noted, etc, if you want to do Classes for rifles you have to spec it completely or not at all

My past discussions are

Open : 24LBS Limit, not other restrictions

Limited: 19LBS Limit, 26" barrel, Factory Ammo

That is it, anything else needs more filtering otherwise you run into the BUTTS, but this gun but this gun

The only real limiting factor we have is factory ammo, factory ammo limits calibers, limits speeds, etc,

Factory ammo, given the same shooter is really what balances these differences, especially smaller differences like barrel length. Factory ammo out of the same length barrel will be within tolerances, include a hand load to that equation and you can change the numbers significantly. Or at least, as a determining factor.

Many production rifles, especially those not commonly used today are well under gunned for a typical competition. You'll never get a shooter off the street with a Mossberg in 308 to compete against a GAP Production gun in 6GT. Prior to Prime making 6GT it would not be in Production class because no factory ammo. That is really the only way to make it appear fair(er),

The grow the sport crowd want to talk about people coming off the street,

Nobody off the street is competitive especially today without a mentor. 15 years you could have walked off the street with a 308, not today. So you need a path, you need to be realistic about it. The gun is a lie, trying to be fair by saying you can run in Production is bullshit today because Production is what they say at any given moment. See Finale

So the classes as noted in the other threads are fix to balance the scales, you recognize the imbalance and you fix it by making shooter divisions so the poorly equipped shooters can stand out in their own pond. C Class or something

 

[M4guru]

"The PRS Production Division was created to encourage growth to our shooting community from outside our ranks by allowing shooters the opportunity to compete in PRS events without being disadvantaged due to custom equipment."

Imagine showing up the first time with your stock Rem/Savage/Tikka/Ruger with a PSTII or whatever scope and shooting against this guy IN THE SAME CLASS, and tell me there isn't an equipment advantage:

GAP Production Rifle in 6GT $2500 (He's a dentist so he paid some dude to develop a load for him and crank out 1000 rounds)
Kahles 6-24 $2500 (If the title sponsor can't meet the standards, make the standards meet the title sponsor, right?)
Seekins Rings $150
Mags $300
Atlas CAL Bipod $240
RRS Bipod mount $120
A419 Arca rail $215
A419 Muzzle Brake $160
AG Game Changer $110
RRS TFCT $1400

It is interesting to me to see the focus of discussion always drifting to the gear defining the class, and not accounting for shooter ability. I would think this would be relatively simple and exists in nearly every other sport. You are grouped by historical performance into skill bands.

Imagine if you got put on a pro basketball team because you had the most expensive shoes? Do we punish people who can afford better gear? Do we handicap people that can't? It's an interesting topic, the one thing I'm sure of is the current way isn't a great one.

 

[HousePlant]

PRS Entry Level should:
- Max out at 600 yards with the exception of two opportunities at 800-1000 double points
- Have stages that add up to a maximum of 80 bullets total used
- 30 minute pre-game live range safety briefing and tutorial for beginners using up to another 20 rounds
- Everyone in beginner gets their round speed tested three times and a large bulletin board shows how to setup an app with that info
- Post-event debrief with ROs and any "pros" that want to provide advice for the next event the beginner participates in, talk reloading, etc.
- More stable, specific beginner-oriented shooting positions (i.e., more prone, modified/table prone vs. shooting off a tank trap)
- Stages call for specific shooting rest type (foreend bag only, bipod w/rear bag, bipod with no rear bag, etc.)
- No use of your fucking spotting scope tripod to stabilize your dishonerable game playing ass on barriers
- Requirement that the scope DOES NOT have a tree (that is distracting to a new shooter) - think Nikon FX1000 reticle
- Limited to 6mm Creedmor or 6.5 Creedmor only... no other type of round
- Silencers and muzzle brakes welcome -- max three ports and <$100 for the brake
- Gun cannot cost more than $1,000 (but must have 10 round capacity, adjustable cheak)
- Everyone uses one of three scopes to choose from, none of which cost more than $800 (not made in China)
- Increased time given to each stage
- First three stages RO can provide corrective guidance; after that IMPACT or RE-ENGAGE only
- Facilitated quick meet and greet before the event so newbs aren't wondering around like dumb asses (I fucking hate that about PRS)
- Pros volunteer to set up their top class guns on benches to allow new shooters to compare their gun to a fancy gun (no shooting)

Aside from cost of entry, biggest issue I see with PRS is that it's so difficult for a newb to become "part of the group". Every event I've been to you are operating at such a manufacturing line pace, trying to prepare for the next round, traveling to the next stage, etc., that you barely get to MEET ANYONE. You need to slow it down a bit... give newbs time to process. I know space and time is limited, but there's a way.

 

[Lowlight]

that is process

they never scaled the events to be something real, it was always just guys in the field playing a game as part of their hobby

they never sat down to make this a professional sport when they created the Series, they just installed a cash register.

Those are process issue to correct, how to mentor and walk new attendees through the process,

They own a place like K&M and bring in $50k per "Official Sponsors", host events with 400 people, but what you are saying is you have no clue how to navigate K&M when you show up, you have no clue what a stage is when you show up, you have no clue where to go, what to do,

Imagine you have a place, like a shooting Disneyland with acres of props to use, and not a single video is going out explaining the process. Safety, Staging, Shooting, Stabilizing, Navigating, where to find a mentor, how to practice, which stuff to buy, the first time.

you pay $100 so they can keep your score, anyone can turn a Excel Sheet into an HTML Page, so what do you get, beyond the privilege of seeing your name on a website ?

 

[Rant Durden]

I like the overall idea of a spec class. I do agree with a previous post to allow maybe two or three different rifles-guys can buy a gun from a company they know, allow re-barreling-same length and general profile as stock, and allow handloading- I think folks who haven't done a prs type event, but want try it will be turned off it they can't roll their own.

 

[Lowlight]

Open: rolls your own

What is the issue, nobody says you can't do it, but Handloads in the right hands are a factor, if one guy has hand loads and the other doesn't there is an easily fixed imbalance,

Ammo is a factor, caliber is a factor, otherwise everyone would still have 308, you can't make the entire field open in regards to ammo, it can be a deciding factor between two people.

In Open, there is no restrictions beyond rifle weight, it satisfies every desire

 

[Lowlight]

I fully believe the more I say these things, the more this is absolutely a waste of time,

I honestly think you Johnny come lately's ruined the entire sport, permanently, beyond a handful of events.

Really, I have hit a walk away point, but people try to pull me back, but the walk away is stronger than ever and I blame all you who showed up late to the party with no concept of history or this shooting sport.

It's destine to be a random collection of individuals claiming the same thing over and over, because nobody will agree on anything, each one wants "Their side" to win out, which is what we have today, the Inmates running the Asylum and we wonder why it's fucked up, zero standardization because I need my part, my personality in place.

A Rifles Only Alumni noted this week, none of this was an issue back in the day, why is it now, because too many sides want to claim a win instead of making it simple, it has help someone, not just anyone but someone specific.

You all enjoy the debate, I think I may just pull the SH Cup from the RTC next year and make it standalone event using my 100% of my own rules, make it so everything is unique, every event, every series, will have it's own set of unique qualities. why not

 

[308pirate]

USPSA gets lively participation in both Production and Carry Optic as well as Single Stack, Limited and Open...clearly, there's an effective way to regulate a sport and run multiple divisions. I think it starts with not allowing competitors to show up with whatever the hell they want with no effective difference between divisions other than the supposed cost on the one hand, and caliber on the other.

USPSA production, for example, isn't about how much you spend (and some people spend a LOT)....it's about the features of your pistol and your gear. How it operates, how much it weighs, how many rounds in the magazine, what sights are on it, what gear you can use and how its allowed to be setup...basically, those things that define the weapons effective performance envelope. You can spend a ton of money on a Production gun or you can (sorry for the IDPA crossover here) be like Dave Sevigny and smoke the entire field with a stock Glock 19.

Single Stack and Production are both relatively accessible to new USPSA shooters or shooters on a budget not because of formal cost limits on the gear, but because of the effective performance limits on the gear that you can shoot (regardless of what it costs).

They don't want to hear it

 

[HousePlant]

that is process

they never scaled the events to be something real, it was always just guys in the field playing a game as part of their hobby

they never sat down to make this a professional sport when they created the Series, they just installed a cash register.

Those are process issue to correct, how to mentor and walk new attendees through the process,

They own a place like K&M and bring in $50k per "Official Sponsors", host events with 400 people, but what you are saying is you have no clue how to navigate K&M when you show up, you have no clue what a stage is when you show up, you have no clue where to go, what to do,

Imagine you have a place, like a shooting Disneyland with acres of props to use, and not a single video is going out explaining the process. Safety, Staging, Shooting, Stabilizing, Navigating, where to find a mentor, how to practice, which stuff to buy, the first time.

you pay $100 so they can keep your score, anyone can turn a Excel Sheet into an HTML Page, so what do you get, beyond the privilege of seeing your name on a website ?

Exactly! K&M is a beautiful place to be, though, but even there I felt lost and that initial impression makes it REALLY hard to say to myself in my head "I want to spend a shit ton of money on PRS... and drive 6 hours... and get no sleep in a cabin with someone with a clear medical condition snoring so loud you could hear it 100 feet from outside the building (but I digress)". I'd rather have a much slower paced "challenge" where I can hone my craft, get DOPES, use a few different rifles of mine. So... aka... go when there isn't an event. Haha.

The experience at Cool Acres Sporting Camp in GA for a newb is bloody belittling. I won't even get into it too much (the poor guy), but one guy was so lost because of how poorly it's handled at the onset that me, being my 2nd match ever, noticed he had never actually joined a team... three rounds in. The guy, like me, was an introvert and just wanted to shoot long range. He spent an hour or so standing there with his gun next to him after being told to shoo away from the bench after checking zero... doing nothing but watching confused. He left early and gave me his number and thanked me for helping him... and said he'd never do a PRS match again... "it's nothing like the YouTube videos". Sure, it's his fault he didn't talk to someone but he said he asked a few people and they said to him "I don't know..." walked away.

 

[Lowlight]

Stock Glock + $499

GAP Production Rifle = $7455 as noted above

When one person shows up with a stock Mossberg 6.5 CM with a Vortex Crossfire on it, you tell him to get into the squad with the 6GT next to him

$900 retail

this is what we see in classes all the time, Mossberg, Savage, with Stalker chassis, and AR stocks, this is typical student rifle

 

[Lowlight]

And in a PRS event we only see a handful of these new shooters, so you either have to create an entry system, change target sizes, squads, etc, or you have to understand the breaking down of divisions and classifications means you may only have one or two people in those divisions, which is kinda what they see now and those people are marginalize and ignore most of the time

It's an afterthought as it's too granular too fine a point, a MD will put in extra work for 50 people, they don't want to do it for 2.

 

[Rant Durden]

The other issue is no matter what change you make/ class you create, people are gonna bitch. Hell, if you gave away the aforementioned setup to anyone who wants to compete and gave them ammo to shoot every event AND ammo to practice with folks would still complain.

The sport has grown, but I'm not sure the price of equipment alone is the limiting factor. It isn't easy to learn, you have to take time and make the effort to actually do it. I'm retired LE and I've made numerous efforts to get friends and colleagues involved. I've tried offering the opportunity to use my gear, my bullets, the club I shoot at and even go varmint hunt. No one really expresses the desire or the interest. Maybe it's a SoCal thing, but I see the same guys at our local precision match also at the rimfire match. Same crowd, they're super helpful and a good bunch of dudes.
Not may newbies though.

 

[Lowlight]

Again, process,

the pipeline does not exist, unless an individual takes it upon themselves to add a friend or help a lost soul, there is no process to induct a new shooter into the sport.

Yes the sport has grown but they continue to operate how I did in 2012, you have to adjust.

See if you partnered with people instead of making disgruntled competitors out of everyone you can have resources that help you find clubs, find coaches, find information

 

[Lowlight]

This is a GAP Production Rifle, if I change the scope to a Kahles 6-24x it's legal for Production Class

Now compare two different walking in off the street, one with the Mossberg above the other with this ...

The handgun crowd need to realize we are not shooting 50 yards, we are shooting 1000 yards, where more than one factor comes into play

Those same factors are not in the equation when shooting in a handgun bay

 

[FjallJager]

My 2 Schillingi.

I moved to Australia in 2010 and started shooting F-Class right away. There were two classes in the Australian Capitol Territory club; F-Open and F-TR. F-TR then (not sure about now) was a 223 with a certain weight bullet and a 308 with a I believe 150 grain bullet. Open had a 13-16 pound limit in weight. I do not remember what the number was. F-TR also had a weight limit.

Australians are friendly (if fairly insulting sort) and I learned the sport, had a good time and made a lot of friends.

"Practical Rifle" matches started in Australia toward the end of my tour at the Embassy in 2012 or 2013. I went and watched one and they were shooting at the same target hill, and in the same pits we were in. They just varied the range, and couldn't shoot off of a F-Class tripod, at least part of what they did was positional.

2021 PRS and NRL is a totally different animal. I haven't shot it in about 3 or 4 years and my interest is really low. Aside from the massive time and financial commitment that both require to be any good, I am not sure I fully understand how it could be fun.

Value of my contribution to this thought process may not be very high.

I'd shoot a club match locally if it was fun, but the idea of 400 other shooters and all that nonsense doesn't interest me.

 

[Sheldon N]

I'm not sure this is something you solve with more rules or creating divisions. I'm not even sure what the exact problem is, except maybe that this sport has a high barrier to entry. I don't think there's any way around that...

Regardless of how much you spend on your gun, you need a fair amount of foundational knowledge about shooting at distance. Most guys dream about someday shooting 1000 yards, but this sport requires that you have the technical knowledge to be competent at it as a prerequisite. Then you have to be willing to drive hours to a match. And be willing to spend $$ on ammo, entry fees, gas - even for a local one-day club match you're going to be in it for at least $150 for the day. And then you have to be willing to be humbled by better shooters and difficult courses of fire, and be the kind of person who wants the challenge of bettering themselves or just enjoys the difficulty to keep coming back.

On the topic of difficulty, I'd argue that this sport is HARD. It's gotten more difficult than where it was 5-10 years ago and shooters have gotten better at this sport. I was recently watching YouTube of some of the big matches from a decade ago and many of the top shooters didn't look as nearly as competent as the shooters of today - the positions built were less stable, there were way more dropped shots, etc. I should note that some of those guys are still active in the sport and are much better shooters today after having played the game for a decade. And there are more and more guys who are sticking around, competing regularly, and getting better. I just looked at an old score results from our 2016 regional finale and I recognize most all those names as guys who still regularly shoot, and they are all MUCH better shooters than they were 5 years ago.

An example of the difficulty these days... we had a match last weekend that is super popular, sells out every month, and has a fair but challenging course of fire (which is part of why it has a good following). A new shooter at this match is likely to shoot 30% of winner. It's no joke - I watched a new shooter, with guidance from an experienced competitor, using a borrowed comp gun setup (MPA/Dasher, the works), hand fed the dope for the targets, still shoot only 30%. And this was someone with legit active duty Mil (SF) experience who is extremely competent with a pistol.

So is this the match directors fault? I don't think so. He made the match that he would want to shoot (he's a top level shooter himself) and everyone here locally loves his match. If he made it easy, scores would go up and people would be bored. We already have one of those matches here locally, it's a way easier course of fire, shorter range, and scores are typically way higher (someone even cleaned the match once). It does draw a higher percentage of new shooters, but it doesn't sell out as regularly as the harder match, despite being almost half the price for the entry fee. There's also a bit of the "blind leading the blind" that takes place there, squads full of new shooters with no experienced guys among them.

IMO - the match director is responsible to make a good match that meets the demand of their local market, and to take care of the shooters that show up. This includes taking care of the newer shooters and help them find a squad with someone who can keep them safe and show them the ropes since these are all self-RO'd matches.

The shooters, especially the experienced shooters, need to be responsible for helping out the new guys as best they can. This is where the rubber meets the road. Be a pied piper and drag people into the sport, help the new guy and make him feel welcome, loan out gear if needed, make sure they are safe. Be a good person to everyone around you. Last month's match I squadded with a guy shooting his first match with a gas gun. He had a very, very difficult day - I think he finished last place with just 15 points on the day. But he had a blast. I loaned him a game changer, cheered him on and gave tips, and let him shoot my leftover ammo at the end of the day. This month he was back again, he tracked me down and was excited to tell me about the new load he worked up for his rifle. And he shot better this month - more points and not in last place.

Leagues don't do any of this. They keep score, they organize a series for those serious competitors, they advertise for manufacturers and they make a profit. IMO they're not the ones that are going to grow the sport and some new division or rule changes isn't going to fix that.

You know what get new shooters involved and keeps people coming back to matches? YOU do.

 

[Davehc130]

Those are all expensive items which create a competitive advantage for people with deeper pockets. Eliminating them levels the playing field and keeps the cost down. If there was one guy with a RRS tripod and Swarovski Spotting scope looking at trace, he would have an advantage and anyone else trying to compete would need to buy those things as well. I know that the cost of some of these peripheral items keeps people from coming out. No one wants to show up and feel "less than".

I would hate to RO that class.....how the heck do you think shooters are going to find the targets without first seeing them in binos...I think you need to rethink banning binos...spotting scope do not give you an advantage over binos...I have both and use binos over a spotting scope...

 

[Crabcore]

I think what is getting lost in this conversation, is that the main reason the middle (25 to 75)% of shooters are at a match is to have fun. Having a class with a set equipment list takes all of the guesswork and stress of figuring out what you need to show up with. No matter what gets picked, someone will not like it, but you gotta start somewhere. For the competitive guys or the aspiring competitive guys, Open class will be there.

 

[Crabcore]

I would hate to RO that class.....how the heck do you think shooters are going to find the targets without first seeing them in binos...I think you need to rethink banning binos...spotting scope do not give you an advantage over binos...I have both and use binos over a spotting scope...

I am on the fence about the binoculars. It is tough because like Frank says, if you put a price limit on it, it defacto becomes the cost. I do agree that binos are a great tool to locate targets before shooting a stage, and obviously knowing where the targets are before shooting is a good thing for safety. I carry a cheap 100 dollar 12x pair of bushnells at matches. They are fine for finding targets but lousy for spotting impacts or seeing trace.

Somewhere there is a line between something to find targets before a stage, and sitting on tripod mounted glass and watching the rest of your squad shoot to figure out the stage. I don't have a solution for this at the moment. At our local matches, we usually let everyone look the the spotting scope to make sure they know where the targets are before the stage starts if they don't have their own glass. this can slow things down, though, and isn't perfect.

I do think a lot of posts about helping people and making the match better on a personal level are correct and this could be improved if people weren't glued to their glass all day and actually talked to people. There are a lot of layers to this topic.

 

[HousePlant]

In the ideal world, every RO would be equipped with (required to bring) a spotting scope for use only to score a shooter's hits/misses and nobody allowed to watch their competitor through glass (except newbs). I see people sitting behind glass the entire round (until it's their turn) having had the advantage of reading wind/mirage, watching bullet traces, planning out their target acquisition, etc. I don't mind showing the targets in a scope before the first shooter shoots, of course. Otherwise I'd never find the targets sometimes, especially after they're all shot up.

On the other hand, disallowing people to use spotting glass could cause sponsors to get annoyed -- they have to sell that shit. And honestly the more glass out there, the more safety. If people are planning out their 1,000 yard shots using that glass... that means it's more likely that bullet will hit a target instead of accidentally clearing the burm (not that that happens ever... but we are talking about bullets here). And frankly most team members with glass are willing to let you look through it enough that you can get the same advantage. I choose not to - except to acquire targets and when I am helping score, which I enjoy doing. I'm very proud of my "IIMMMPAAAACCCCTTT" and "REEEEE-ENGGAAAAAGGE" and "NOOO CAALL"!

 

[Mormegil87]

As @lowlight has addressed multiple times, there is an issue with the division/class set up as it stands now. His solution addresses it, the nuances of his solution could be debated once the framework is accepted. But it won't be, the production division isn't designed to bring in new shooters, it's designed to bring in an addition title sponsor and affiliate sponsors.

Several guys above have mentioned the barrier to entry and being lost when going to that first match. This is where the PRS could take a page from the NRL, @lowlight and the PRN. Start producing semi weekly/monthly/quarterly videos to be posted on the website and social media. Topics like:

Safety do's and don'ts
-So many new shooters don't even know what sky loading looks like.

Gear for your first match

Gear management on a stage

Gear highlights

Stage navigation and breakdowns

Clock management

Match behavior

How to quickly find targets


I believe @Cjwise5 was already doing some of that and I believe at one point he was videoing matches for the PRS, if I'm not mistaken.


There's so many ideas out there for how to's and info for new match shooters. But they won't do it, so I just typed all of that out for nothing.

 

[jinxx4ever]

NRL Hunter

 

[308pirate]

I think what is getting lost in this conversation, is that the main reason the middle (25 to 75)% of shooters are at a match is to have fun.

What is the definition of "having fun" for most of these people?

 

[AManWearingAHat]

As an outsider to the sport, but one who has been interested in it. Is the goal here to adjust the equipment classifications to be more friendly to newer shooters and thus grow the sport? Or even the playing field more within the equipment classification brackets?

From an outside perspective, the cost and the very high bar of technical knowledge to be effective and feel comfortable in the discipline would seem to intimidate a lot of people. By the posts here it seems that many of the members here were around when the sport was new and had a hand in shaping it, and got to similarly struggle and figure it out for years while a new shooters now are facing intimidating and skilled walls of gear and knowledge they have to race to catch up to at a high cost to them if they want to feel competitive. For many, including myself, they may not have the time or funds to dedicate compared to other sports with lower bars to entry.

Have y'all thought about a classifier system similar to the NRA system? Have a unified course of fire that can be scored, with score cut offs for each classification (Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, High Master, or whatever yall come up with), and then have shooters compete within their equipment category and classification similar to F Class? I don't know if this would be tractable in PRS, but I think it could help newer members to feel competitive (and have fun!) more often within their classification.

 

[Crabcore]

As an outsider to the sport, but one who has been interested in it. Is the goal here to adjust the equipment classifications to be more friendly to newer shooters and thus grow the sport? Or even the playing field more within the equipment classification brackets?

The idea behind this is to create a simple place for people to start out, as well s differentiate the equipment brackets.

and then have shooters compete within their equipment category and classification similar to F Class

The issue currently is that some divisions have almost no participation, and the two biggest (open and production) aren't really any different. PRS claims production is supposed to be cost controlled, but it is every bit as expensive as open at this point.

What is the definition of "having fun" for most of these people?

I think this is maybe the question we need to be asking. I proposed an idea for a new class, but maybe I came at it from the wrong direction. I am not even sure there is a simple enough answer to this to be actionable.

 

[308pirate]

I think this is maybe the question we need to be asking.

Yes, that is what needs to be asked and answered. Without understanding what is it that people want, any attempt to "fix" things will be just another failure.

More than a few times the suggestion has been raised here to define a minimum trigger weight to be another layer of safety and every single time the same vocal ones rush in to shout the idea down because "it's too hard to enforce".

So if checking trigger weight, something that is objectively verifiable and that is done at every CMP Service Rifle match, is too fucking hard to police in PRS; what are the odds that any rule defining what a "production" (or whatever) rifle is will be enforced?

And if you're not going to enforce something, why the fuck even have a rule?

I could go on but I won't.

 

[Rob01]

Lost me after this BS "No one shoots Tactical; it can just go away."

 

[AManWearingAHat]

The idea behind this is to create a simple place for people to start out, as well s differentiate the equipment brackets.

The issue currently is that some divisions have almost no participation, and the two biggest (open and production) aren't really any different. PRS claims production is supposed to be cost controlled, but it is every bit as expensive as open at this point.


I think this is maybe the question we need to be asking. I proposed an idea for a new class, but maybe I came at it from the wrong direction. I am not even sure there is a simple enough answer to this to be actionable.

Okay I understand the problem a bit better. Here's my opinion as a total outsider to the sport, who knows a bit about mid to long range shooting, but does not compete. Maybe it will be helpful.

In some respects I think you do have to cater to the "swing what you bring" crowd to get participation and member retention members up. I personally am not going to dump thousands of dollars and tens to hundreds of hours into a new shooting discipline that I am not able try in an "off the shelf" configuration and see some success with. In that I mean true off the shelf. I think most interested shooters would be picking up a Savage, Remington 700, Tikka or Bergara rifle they found at Cabelas or Academy, probably pick up a sub 1000 dollar scope and maybe be a reloader if you're lucky. I think the question has to be framed more so in the context of the "shooting public" and what you're average joe blow would do.

I think this is the sort of set up that needs to be capable of your average stage, while still remaining a challenge so there is that desire to come back and be better. Where do draw the lines though is something I don't have a great opinion on because I don't know the discipline well enough. As I have learned from this thread there are some extremely capable "Production" rifles that are available to shooters now.

 

[308pirate]

I personally am not going to dump thousands of dollars and tens to hundreds of hours into a new shooting discipline that I am not able try in an "off the shelf" configuration and see some success with. In that I mean true off the shelf.

Let's roll with that. Define what success looks like.

I think the question has to be framed more so in the context of the "shooting public" and what you're average joe blow would do.

I can tell you exactly what the average joe blow from the shooting public will do: few will even try it and most who do will never come back. I've seen it over the last 22 years in NRA rifle, NSCA sporting clays, and USPSA handgun.

Most shooters have two huge barriers to entry into serious competitive shooting:

• A significant lack of even basic skills (go watch a public range firing line if you don't believe me)
• An ego that can't handle the disconnect between how good they think they're and how bad they really are

You could hand them the most expensive pistol/rifle/shotgun/gear bag in the planet and they would still suck.

 

[AManWearingAHat]

Let's roll with that. Define what success looks like.



I can tell you exactly what the average joe blow from the shooting public will do: few will even try it and most who do will never come back. I've seen it over the last 22 years in NRA rifle, NSCA sporting clays, and USPSA handgun.

Most shooters have two huge barriers to entry into serious competitive shooting:

• A significant lack of even basic skills (go watch a public range firing line if you don't believe me)
• An ego that can't handle the disconnect between how good they think they're and how bad they really are

You could hand them the most expensive pistol/rifle/shotgun/gear bag in the planet and they would still suck.

Sure, so for me my definition of "success" is that I would like to be able to complete the course of fire (or at least feel like I could have if I'd have been more practiced) with the equipment I came with and establish a time or a position among similarly equipped or skilled shooters so I have some sort of metric for improvement. I don't want to show up and be challenged so far beyond my means and feel like the skill ceiling is unobtainable or find the learning curve is just a straight vertical line.

Early on, just knowing I was able to complete a match safely and have fun with it would be a "successful" first outing in my eyes. Continued enjoyment for me would be seeing some improvement as I learned and to have a good group of guys to hang out with at the matches.


As to your second point about the shooting public, I'll defer to your experience but comment that I have had very similar experiences. I suppose there will be no helping someone who is wholly unskilled and unwilling to accept it. Perhaps an annual "beginner" match where new shooters are mentored through a veteran spotter? Just spit balling. I want to see the shooting sports grow and engage with the younger generations. I suspect the growth of PRS has been limited due to the fact that there are only so many facilities capable of hosting a full match with the requisite distances.

 

[SWFShooter]

Sure, so for me my definition of "success" is that I would like to be able to complete the course of fire (or at least feel like I could have if I'd have been more practiced) with the equipment I came with and establish a time or a position among similarly equipped or skilled shooters so I have some sort of metric for improvement. I don't want to show up and be challenged so far beyond my means and feel like the skill ceiling is unobtainable or find the learning curve is just a straight vertical line.

Early on, just knowing I was able to complete a match safely and have fun with it would be a "successful" first outing in my eyes. Continued enjoyment for me would be seeing some improvement as I learned and to have a good group of guys to hang out with at the matches.


As to your second point about the shooting public, I'll defer to your experience but comment that I have had very similar experiences. I suppose there will be no helping someone who is wholly unskilled and unwilling to accept it. Perhaps an annual "beginner" match where new shooters are mentored through a veteran spotter? Just spit balling. I want to see the shooting sports grow and engage with the younger generations. I suspect the growth of PRS has been limited due to the fact that there are only so many facilities capable of hosting a full match with the requisite distances.

Your idea for a beginner match has existed for years. Look up GAP Grind. As far as local matches, typically a new shooter is given a lot of latitude and in most cases a mentor for the match.