For hunting: faster and lighter or slower and heavier?

[Jayjay1]

Hey guys,
for a more deep penetration, same caliber, same barrel, would it be better to use a lighter and faster bullet, or to use a heavier and slower bullet?

Because of inertia, I would guess a heavier but slower bullet would penetrate deeper, but what do I know.

 

[brianf]

What ever your rifle shoots best

I don’t thinkElk know it was a 165 Barnes or a 220 partition

If your worried about trajectory that’s one thing but “killing” power…no diff

any centerfire rifle using any “normal” weight bullet puts game on the ground….minus dangerous game bear etc

 

[Fig]

That's been the thinking for 300 or so years. However, there is only a pass through. You don't get more killing power for the force at which the bullet hits the tree behind the game.

I've seen a ton of whitetails killed DRT with a 5.56 not bonded/solids, so really it depends on what you're killing.

 

[MtnCreek]

Bullet construction > weight.

 

[DIBBS]

Proper shot placement at reasonable distance = Meat in the freezer. As long as you are using a properly constructed, not frangible bullet, within reason bullet weight doesn't matter.

 

[Maggot]

Proper shot placement at reasonable distance = Meat in the freezer. As long as you are using a properly constructed, not frangible bullet, within reason bullet weight doesn't matter.

That was my thought. Hit the heart its usually game over.

 

[HousePlant]

I lean towards faster because it is a contributor to accuracy, especially in lessening wind influence.

Also, I like copper/monolithic bullets like Barnes TTSX. Inherently accurate poly-tip design, no icky lead, and I can use lighter grain bullets.

 

[E. Bryant]

Bullet construction > weight.

Shot placement > all

 

[HousePlant]

Shot placement > all

Headshots from 600 yards > all

 

[Franko]

I suggest you check out https://www.ballisticstudies.com/index. He covers a lot of ground but is more focused on long range hunting.

In a nutshell, slower, heavier, and softer for controlled fragmentation and deep penetration.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Shot placement is what matters especially. After that come calibre (and case length/charge), velocity, and energy. Bullet type matters based on where you intend to place the shot and the kind of critter it is.

You can kill an elephant with a .30-30 given perfect shot placement, but you might be trampled to death in the process. Plenty of animals have been taken by soft lead .44-40 in the past but you're not gonna use that on a lion or a bison if you want to be successful.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Depends on how good of a hunter you are.... When you get really good you can bow hunt.

 

[10ring'r]

Me, I go with shot placement and knock-down power/ability. Unless, you like to shoot at extreme distances (over 500yds), I don't, so, then go lighter and flatter. Mac

 

[frank320]

1) pick the bullet that gives you the best and most consistent groups for the entire range you plan on hunting
2) if both shoot equally well, pick the heavier for caliber bullet

 

[diggler1833]

I pick bullets that 1) shoot well, and then 2) are designed to operate in the velocity range that encompasses the distances ill be hunting at, and then 3) are designed to work on the weight class of the animal I'll be hunting.

No real need to think it past that, but for *deeper penetration* as the OP is inquiring about, I suggest that it is hard to out perform all copper projectiles...grain for grain. Then there are the arguments regarding expansion, bullet length etc... This could go on for pages.

There are literally a half dozen viable choices these days for just about every cartridge and game animal.

 

[eca7891]

I guess my first questions would be:

What are you hunting?
What area are you hunting? ( be there bears in dem ther woods)
Are you using a smaller caliber for what you are hunting?
What’s your experience level?

 

[judgedelta]

I think it was the African PH and gunwriter, Robert Ruark, that coined the phrase, "Use enough gun".

 

[hlee]

“There is no replacement for displacement...”

Then again, “speed kills...”

Bullet construction trumps weight, though you need the right bullet for the speed. A heavy and slow bullet won’t open up if it is too “heavily constructed.” But, a light and fast bullet will blow apart if too “lightly constructed.” “Penciling through” is just as problematic as catastrophic fragmentation on impact.

My bullet of choice for game is the Barnes tsx or ttsx. I can’t tell you they open like the pretty x’s you see in the marketing material because I’ve never found one. I’m not a proponent of the school of thought that says “the perfect bullet dumps all of its energy and is found under the skin on the far site of the animal,” mostly because that scenario is much too close to “the bullet didn’t have enough energy to reach the vitals.“ And, exit wounds leak much more readily than entrance wounds. It is rapid exsanguination and/or destruction of a vital part of the CNS that kills, not kinetic energy, or temporary wound channels, or hydrostatic shock, or stopping power.

The above notwithstanding, the last several deer that I have taken, were taken with a 6.5 Grendel. That’s a 123 grain eld-m moving at a blistering 2550 FPS. A light weight, “match“ bullet, moving slowly. The deer didn’t seem to notice.

 

[Holliday]

“500 yards= extreme distance” Amazing how perspective changes. After opening day here in Wyoming on the prairie, hunting Antelope 500+ is not uncommon for me. In Maine where I grew up, 300 yards would be bragging rights.

For me, it’s BC, velocity and terminal ballistics. In my 280 Ackley I shoot 168 Berger VLD- Hunting bullets. That seems to be the best balance of weight and wind resistance, which is a huge factor here in WY. That said I am running a 20” barrel due to using a can. So I lose a little velocity there but it’s worth it for a more reasonably length package.

 

[HitEmHard]

I have kills of almost all North American game, with a 30-06 and 150gr Remington PSP. Don't overthink it! Most of your lost game won't be from the $8 a round ammo, but from the shot you didn't practice for. Find what shoots reasonably well and shoot it a lot!

 

[JJMoody]

Of course, hit em where it’ll kill em. In my areas, shots seem to either be 10 yds or 1000. On my current 28 nosler I have two hunting loads. I run 143hammer hunters at a mild 3500fps and 180 Berger vld-h at 3200. Keep my zero at 300 yds with the 143s and use just over 400 for my max point blank range on this load. Don’t really think about it, just point and shoot. This load kinda gets squirrelly after 700 yds and I switch over to the 180s. They do a bit better at distance.

 

[KnowNothing256]

OP, you asked about penetration, and it doesn’t seem like you’ve gotten a lot of responses speaking directly to your question.

Monolithics have the best reputation for penetration, I’d say; specifically, @hlee’s experience is typical, that penetration is commonly a 100% through-shot with a nice exit wound and blood trail to follow. However, they have to impact faster to expand, ~2000 FPS minimum, and they’re lighter so they slow down faster. This means that their effective terminal range is usually shorter.

If you’re talking classic lead expanding bullets, heavier is typically better as long as it has sufficient speed upon impact. It’s honestly the same story as the monolithics, it’s just that you rarely have a lot of monolithic options because they get too long quickly as you add weight, so there’s usually only a single “big game” weight class for any given caliber.

 

[BullGear]

Depends on where you're hunting. Heavy thick woods, I'd go with slow and heavier bullet. Open terrain, I'd be likely to hunt with a faster, lighter bullet. However, it also depends on what you're hunting.

 

[Jgunner]

Ill be in the faster/lighter camp. Bergers have been killing it for me. Knocked down elk faster with a cm than a close up 300wm. Both good shots.

 

[Jayjay1]

OP, you asked about penetration, and it doesn’t seem like you’ve gotten a lot of responses speaking directly to your question.

Therefore, that you "know nothing", you actually gave a pretty good answer to my question.

Yes, I have asked for a deeper penetration in relation to weight and speed of the bullet.
That was a general question.

And you have smelled the direction my question was turned to, shooting through if possible to get a blood-trail to follow the animal if needed.

I´m from Europe, Germany exactly, and hunting over here is very ethical.
To honour the life you are taking, it is your duty to kill with as less pain for the animal as possible.
"It should lie in the bang.", is one saying.
But because this doesn´t always work, you wait for 5 minutes, to give the animal time to rest, lay down in the "wound-bed", and then you follow with the dog in our often dense forests here.
It can be, that the animal only makes 50yds. into the bushes and you are almost unable to find it, especially wild hogs.

I know that things are different in the USA, that´s why I didn´t make a detailed question.
And of course shot placement is king, and it is also important to know the animal, distance, area, etc..
Just, that wasn´t my question.
But I think I got my answer, so thanks to all of you for joining in and share your experiences and opinions.


Signal "Opening the hunt" as a welcome to other hunters, as a shoutout to all of you.
Weidmannsheil!

 

[TriggerJerk!]

Therefore, that you "know nothing", you actually gave a pretty good answer to my question.

Yes, I have asked for a deeper penetration in relation to weight and speed of the bullet.
That was a general question.

And you have smelled the direction my question was turned to, shooting through if possible to get a blood-trail to follow the animal if needed.

I´m from Europe, Germany exactly, and hunting over here is very ethical.
To honour the life you are taking, it is your duty to kill with as less pain for the animal as possible.
"It should lie in the bang.", is one saying.
But because this doesn´t always work, you wait for 5 minutes, to give the animal time to rest, lay down in the "wound-bed", and then you follow with the dog in our often dense forests here.
It can be, that the animal only makes 50yds. into the bushes and you are almost unable to find it, especially wild hogs.

I know that things are different in the USA, that´s why I didn´t make a detailed question.
And of course shot placement is king, and it is also important to know the animal, distance, area, etc..
Just, that wasn´t my question.
But I think I got my answer, so thanks to all of you for joining in and share your experiences and opinions.


Signal "Opening the hunt" as a welcome to other hunters, as a shoutout to all of you.

Some of your fellow countrymen published an interesting paper in 2014 comparing bullet type and wound channel using CT imagery that might interest you:

Gremse F, Krone O, Thamm M, Kiessling F, Tolba RH, Rieger S, et al. (2014) Performance of Lead-Free versus Lead-Based Hunting Ammunition in Ballistic Soap. PLoS ONE 9(7): e102015. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0102015

Dr Carl Gremse is a wildlife biologist, hunter, and a really nice guy. He works in Germany and can be found via web search if you want to read more of his research on this topic. PM me if you have trouble finding him.

Col/Dr. Martin Fackler, MD (US Army, Ret.) wrote several foundational reports and papers on terminal ballistics and forensics. He is a great guy (reviewed one of my papers), and dispelled a lot of faulty beliefs with his forensic work. PM me if you have trouble finding these.

Penetration of vital organs kills. So to achieve lethality the projectile must carry sufficient energy to reach the intended vial areas at the distances used (whether a single rifle projectile or multiple shotshell projectiles). Terminal behavior of bullet type and design must be known for the animal and distance. Finally placement matters, so know your quarry.

The newer monolithic rifle bullets (Barnes TTX, Hornady GMX, etc) typically have deeper penetration than their frangible competitors, with expansion limited by velocity at impact. Remember, Pb cores can transfer Pb to the carcass, so know your bullet and trim the meat as needed (you can find a lot of information on this topic, but quality varies and bias is common).

There are a few websites that evaluate bullet performance in gelatin and game, so I suggest you do a bit of web searching for your selected bullet options.

Know your abilities, with your rifle and bullet through practice.

Good hunting!

 

[Jayjay1]

Good hunting!

Chapeau!
What a pleasure to read, thank you, Weidmannsheil!

 

[HogsLife]

I lean towards faster. Velocity and Bullet weight determine ft/lbs of energy on target but not equally. Velocity makes more of a difference in energy that your bullet weight does. Velocity enables you to take advantage of your BC and Sectional Density for penetration.

But even over bullet weight, I’d be looking at bullet construction and how it’s designed to perform terminally. Mass retention etc. A light, high velocity properly expanding bullet that retains its mass will do more damage than a heavier jacketed bullet that loses most of its mass on impact and doesn’t penetrate properly.

pretty hard to beat solids or hunting applications. Badlands Bulldozers, PVA Cayugas, Hammer Hunters will all Make happen. Barnes LRX, TTSX’s do a good job terminally as well imo

 

[armorpl8chikn]

It seems we never learn.
This exact subject led to me posting two outrageous kills in..2012? 2013?

Here is a fact.
Energy by itself doesn't kill.......quickly.
Entry wounds bleed much better when they have an exit.
Shot placement is king. If it is good, "penciling through" won't matter.



Penciling through.........

 

[armorpl8chikn]

 

[Jack's Dad]

That was my thought. Hit the heart its usually game over.

Sweet pun!

 

[E. Bryant]

I think this conversation is far more interesting when we are talking about situations where the cartridge is marginal for the task - pistol hunting, actual big game, etc.

For those in the US, we're usually debating something like the use of a 150gr vs 180gr bullet from a .30-06 for a 125lb whitetail deer at 100 yards, which is a situation that could probably result in a humane kill if the cartridge was loaded with a spitball.

Generally speaking, poking holes into the vitals from the worst foreseeable angle should be the first priority, since the failure to do so is unlikely to result in a humane kill. This generally favors bullets towards the robust and heavy end of the spectrum, but that's highly relative to both the cartridge and the game. Once a hole can be poked to the needed depth, then one can focus on maximizing damage along that path via expansion, fragmentation, tumbling, etc. just so long as we have energy left in the budget and don't fall short of the penetration goal if something goes wrong (like the bullet finds a bone in its path).

BTW, beware of the fallacy that light-and-fast bullets "shoot flatter over long distances". While technically true with regards to elevation over intermediate distances, it doesn't hold up well once we add wind, and we're still going to miss if actual range isn't known. Precision shooters get this, but hunters still seen stuck in the middle of the last century on this topic.

 

[Jigstick]

Penetration isn’t as important as “energy delivered”. I’ll give an example.

I shot a white tail with a 6 Ackley going 4000fps+. Bullet exited out the other side. Deer ran 150yds. Insides didn’t show significant damage.

I shot a white tail with a 6.5x47 going 2800fps. No exit. Lungs and heart looked like ground meat.

Pick the appropriate bullet that will dump the energy into the vitals. Speed isn’t everything.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Oh For Fucks Sake....

 

[HogsLife]

I think this conversation is far more interesting when we are talking about situations where the cartridge is marginal for the task - pistol hunting, actual big game, etc.

For those in the US, we're usually debating something like the use of a 150gr vs 180gr bullet from a .30-06 for a 125lb whitetail deer at 100 yards, which is a situation that could probably result in a humane kill if the cartridge was loaded with a spitball.

Generally speaking, poking holes into the vitals from the worst foreseeable angle should be the first priority, since the failure to do so is unlikely to result in a humane kill. This generally favors bullets towards the robust and heavy end of the spectrum, but that's highly relative to both the cartridge and the game. Once a hole can be poked to the needed depth, then one can focus on maximizing damage along that path via expansion, fragmentation, tumbling, etc. just so long as we have energy left in the budget and don't fall short of the penetration goal if something goes wrong (like the bullet finds a bone in its path).

BTW, beware of the fallacy that light-and-fast bullets "shoot flatter over long distances". While technically true with regards to elevation over intermediate distances, it doesn't hold up well once we add wind, and we're still going to miss if actual range isn't known. Precision shooters get this, but hunters still seen stuck in the middle of the last century on this topic.

Absolutely. You need to find that balance between bullet weight. Velocity and BC That heavy bullet with high BC isn’t gonna perform if you can t get the velocity out of it. Without the velocity, lag time increases and so does your wind deflection In the same breath that high velocity light bullet with lower BC is gonna slow down and drop a lot faster as the distance increases, which in turn increases lag time and your wind deflection.

I run bullets that are on the heavy end of the spectrum for the caliber I’m shooting
7mm/.284 180gn VLD’s but Im pushing them at over 3k. So not “light” bullets but in comparison to the bigger 30cals, they’d be considered light and fast

 

[Jigstick]

Care to elaborate? Do you defy the laws or physics?

I’ve shot numerous white tail with my 300wsm. With 140s screaming fast and exploding on impact. Grape fruit sized entrance holes. Zero exit. Ive shot them with 210s going slow and they blow out the back over penetrating. Speed is only one variable with terminal ballistics.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

(Big long rambling post deleted)

"Energy dump" is horse shit.

I'm just a internet model. Bon Jour.

 

[HogsLife]

Care to elaborate? Do you defy the laws or physics?

I’ve shot numerous white tail with my 300wsm. With 140s screaming fast and exploding on impact. Grape fruit sized entrance holes. Zero exit. Ive shot them with 210s going slow and they blow out the back over penetrating. Speed is only one variable with terminal ballistics.

You’re right. Velocity is only one part of the equation, but being you’re speaking on “energy” it’s the factor that makes biggest impact.

velocity x velocity x bullet weight / 450,436

= ft/lbs energy

Run the numbers and you’ll see that velocity changes has a much larger affect on the energy delivered than bullet weight

In the end, shot Placement and bullet selection / terminal performance is going be the deciding factor.

Jacketed Bullets exploding on impact is less a velocity issue and more of a bullet choice / shot Placement issue

 

[Holliday]

I often do a crude necropsy to as a part of a debrief/ AAR on all elements of the hunt and kill.

These are both examples of Antelope kills with my 20 inch suppressed 280AI. Bullets are 168 Berger VLD-Hunting Bullets. Both use stock photos for live shots & the skin.

Example #1 was 250 yards. This buck was a shot was head-on. The animal was moving toward at a good pace during opening day twilight. The animal drop Immediately in it’s tracks. We had snuck into where I knew they were sleeping and started shooting 1/2 hr before sunlight as they began moving around. With suppressed fire we had 3 on the ground in less than 20 mins., two for me, one for him.

Example #2 is a late season doe. Shot was 638 yards, confirmed by range finder, gps tracking and geo tagged photos. The animal reared up and traveled approximately 30 yards, then dropped dead. Though the exit appears far to the rear, no guts were disturbed.

I also have a gps map, current environmentals and ballistic charts that accompany these AARs

 

[WB300]

Shot placement every time. The mafia has proven it for over 100 years. A .22 behind the ear.... lacks speed and energy, but gets to the organ needed for a kill.

 

[Holliday]

The mafia has proven it for over 100 years. A .22 behind the ear....

Personally, I like a chain saw......

 

[hlee]

View attachment 7692784

Core lokt bullets may be “the deadliest mushrooms in the woods” but I’ve been hard pressed to get factory remington ammunition to group worth a tinker’s damn out of my remington 700. And, that’s a rifle with a mountain contour barrel that shoots barnes bullets MOA or better- 5 shot groups. I grew up shooting ammo from those green boxes and there’s a reason that minute of pie plate is the benchmark (and it’s not because that’s the size of the vitals). The ammo just sucks. If it shoots out of your guns, great, but I’ll hand load. That’s more expensive, but worth it to me.

 

[HogsLife]

Core lokt bullets may be “the deadliest mushrooms in the woods” but I’ve been hard pressed to get factory remington ammunition to group worth a tinker’s damn out of my remington 700. And, that’s a rifle with a mountain contour barrel that shoots barnes bullets MOA or better- 5 shot groups. I grew up shooting ammo from those green boxes and there’s a reason that minute of pie plate is the benchmark (and it’s not because that’s the size of the vitals). The ammo just sucks. If it shoots out of your guns, great, but I’ll hand load. That’s more expensive, but worth it to me.

Agreed. They flat out kill. Amd have for a loooong time It’s the accuracy that’s the issue. Im glad to see the solids getting dialed in. Hard to beat the terminal performance of them and
Now we’re starting to see some
Pretty impressive BC’s especially with the Badlands Bulldozer’s.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Maybe I’m crazy, but am I the only one who think some people truly overthink a hunting bullets accuracy acceptability? Do I really need to have a .25-.99 five shot group to hunt a medium to large game in North America? Is there not a vital region on an animal that has been accepted as the impact area for as long as man has used weapons to harvest animals? Is there a deeper seated issue here, where people want to extend the lethal game taking range to push the envelope or is there something else I’m missing.

 

[HogsLife]

Maybe I’m crazy, but am I the only one who think some people truly overthink a hunting bullets accuracy acceptability? Do I really need to have a .25-.99 five shot group to hunt a medium to large game in North America? Is there not a vital region on an animal that has been accepted as the impact area for as long as man has used weapons to harvest animals? Is there a deeper seated issue here, where people want to extend the lethal game taking range to push the envelope or is there something else I’m missing.

let’s not get into the “ethics” of LR hunting. To each their own.

As far as accuract requirements, that’s gonna depends solely on the range you want to be effective at given times ur type / environment of hunting

 

[roostercogburn98]

let’s not get into the “ethics” of LR hunting. To each their own.

As far as accuract requirements, that’s gonna depends solely on the range you want to be effective at given times ur type / environment of hunting

Oh no, ethics wasn’t my reasoning for the post. I just like to know why people tick the way they do on hunting scenarios. I know to each their own, but for the sake of discussion I suppose.

 

[HogsLife]

Oh no, ethics wasn’t my reasoning for the post. I just like to know why people tick the way they do on hunting scenarios. I know to each their own, but for the sake of discussion I suppose.

everybody has different accuracy expectations and ranges they want to be effective to.

i look at it like this, the more accurate you can make it at the range, while your comfortable, prone and in somewhat controlled environment the better off you’re gonna be in field comditons when things maybe aren’t as comfortable / stable, calm and relaxed. Your environment, size of the game your hunting, and shooter capabilities will dictate accuracy standard and the range at which you can effectively take an animal. That’s gonna vary from shooter to shooter. I see where your coming from tho. You don’t “need” a ..25-.5 MOA rifle to have a good hunting setup.. 1 Moa rifle is plenty good, that extra just affords you a bit more wiggle room.

 

[hlee]

Maybe I’m crazy, but am I the only one who think some people truly overthink a hunting bullets accuracy acceptability? Do I really need to have a .25-.99 five shot group to hunt a medium to large game in North America? Is there not a vital region on an animal that has been accepted as the impact area for as long as man has used weapons to harvest animals? Is there a deeper seated issue here, where people want to extend the lethal game taking range to push the envelope or is there something else I’m missing.

Yes, you are. Increased accuracy means decreased variability and decreased uncertainty.

I’m taking head/neck shots on south Texas white tails out to maybe 200 yards. This is not long range, but the target is small. More accuracy makes everything more better. And, my preference is ”halitosis range” with a bow, but I don’t accept pipe plate accuracy from that range either- even though I’m making body shots. I expect my arrows/fletchings to be beat up after a practice session, unless I’m shooting a single arrow per bullseye.

This is a precision marksmanship forum. You’ll not find enough people to fill a phone booth that would take less accuracy if more is available.

YMMV, but Remington green box ammo shoots like ass out of any rifle I’ve ever used it in. 2-3 moa is sufficient if you are hunting from a blind over bait at a known range, but add just a dash of uncertainty and it all goes out of the window. And, if you paid good money for a guided hunt and eat a tag because of poor accuracy, saving a $20 on buying cheap ammo is going to feel pretty foolish.

At the end of the day, confidence begets confidence. If you KNOW that your gear is up to the task, everything else is easier. Hiking in is less tedious because you know it is worth it. Finding the game is easier because your “perfect shot” didn’t leak just a bit too far left or right and turn into a gut shot. Dressing the game is eaiser because you didn’t rupture the guts. Hiking out is easier because you didn’t waste as much effort on everything prior.

When I’m asked “what ammo for hunting?” my response invariably is “buy a box of everything you can find and buy more of what groups the best out of your rifle. Doesn’t matter how it shoots out of my rifle.“

Shoot what works best in your gun. Don’t worry about anyone else’s guns.

Bullet, cartridge, and caliber debates sell magazines. Good shooting puts meat in the freezer.

 

[hlee]

Fudds be getting thick up in here. If I spend any more time in this thread, I’m going to need to take a shower to wash off the 24 hour campfire...

 

[TriggerJerk!]

Maybe I’m crazy, but am I the only one who think some people truly overthink a hunting bullets accuracy acceptability? Do I really need to have a .25-.99 five shot group to hunt a medium to large game in North America? Is there not a vital region on an animal that has been accepted as the impact area for as long as man has used weapons to harvest animals? Is there a deeper seated issue here, where people want to extend the lethal game taking range to push the envelope or is there something else I’m missing.

Hi. It depends. But I don’t believe you can over think it. I have harvested a lot of animals for research, and in most studies it required DRT without damaging the sample areas (i.e. vital organs). Bullet specification and performance was essential, and different, in each case.

Those studies (and my collaborators) also taught me: 1) every person with a firearm and/or copy of Field & Stream or Guns & Ammo is an “expert”, 2) don’t ever argue with the “experts”, and 3) to listen closely to those same “experts” because their observations often reveal details that can be used or tested.

Finally and most important, most hunters care more about animals and ethics than many will ever know. Give them good data/information and they will put it to good use.