Force gauge almost maxing out.

[Halfnutz]

Not sure what's causing this.

I just started annealing with an Annealeez and using 750 tempilaq inside the case neck to set the timing.
Removed the expander from Hornady Custom Grade 6.5 CM dies, so I am only sizing the neck down and bumping the shoulder. Then run them over a 21st Century Mandrel die (tin coated).
Checked the necks with a .262 pin and the pin is stopping at the shoulder and case neck junction. A .261pin drops straight through. .263 pin is snug and takes a bit of pressure to start.
Tried seating a few bullets and they start at about 30-40lbs on the gage. Then it takes all they way up to 150+ to seat all the way.
Trimmed case length is 1.910.
140gr Bullet length is 1.340
COAL is 2.820.
I have the boat tail past the neck slightly.
Tried this on both Hornady and Nosler brass. With and without powder and am having the same issue.

I haven't found a bushing die for 6.5CM in stock.

 

[AllenOne1]

Are you sure your mandrel is set to go all the way through the neck portion of the case, it almost sounds like it is stopping short and leaving an area of the neck that is not expanded to the correct diameter.

 

[918v]

When u anneal an oxide forms on the neck and interferes with bullet seating. You have to use dry lube on the inside of the neck to return to normal seating pressure.

 

[Halfnutz]

Are you sure your mandrel is set to go all the way through the neck portion of the case, it almost sounds like it is stopping short and leaving an area of the neck that is not expanded to the correct diameter.

Double.checked it. The 21st century die has a window and I am almost all the way up the mandrel.

 

[Halfnutz]

When u anneal an oxide forms on the neck and interferes with bullet seating. You have to use dry lube on the inside of the neck to return to normal seating pressure.

Tried that too. No love with imperial dry neck lube.

The inner donut is there for sure. I can push the .262 pin through but it takes some extra pressure.

 

[918v]

That means you’re not getting enough lube in the neck

 

[Halfnutz]

That means you’re not getting enough lube in the neck

You mean with the mandrel?

I'm not sure about this. My concern is either the size die is doing it or worst case the neck is collapsing slightly at the shoulder junction.

I will try applying lube deeper inside the case neck with a q-tip.

 

[Tokay444]

Donut.

 

[918v]

No no no

You don’t use a q-tip for this. You can use the ceramic media or dunk the neck in the graphite and tap the neck on a hard surface to get the excess out. Then you run the mandrel through, then back into the graphite before seating the bullet.

 

[918v]

Donut.

I don’t think so. There is always going to be a tight spot at the neck/shoulder junction due to the way brass flows through the sizing die.

 

[Halfnutz]

I don’t think so. There is always going to be a tight spot at the neck/shoulder junction due to the way brass flows through the sizing die.

I won't discount this at this point. It does feel like a donut but internally not the dreaded external donut.

I'll be back home soon and will try your suggestion.

 

[AllenOne1]

What size mandrel are you pushing through the neck? I have been assuming it is a .262

 

[Halfnutz]

I have seen posts where seating pressure is up to 60lbs, and often around 30 or even less.
Maxing out the gage seems ridiculous.

 

[Feesh]

Did you chamfer well after trimming?

 

[Halfnutz]

What size mandrel are you pushing through the neck? I have been assuming it is a .262

I can honestly say I have not measured it. But I will.
I bought the only 6.5 tin coated that 21st Century sells. I didn't know what to expect for spring back so I didn't get into the custom sizes to start.

I just received a Sinclair for .30 cal but haven't tried it yet. I haven't ordered a seater for .308 (.308 or 300WM) yet. I wanted to see how this first 6.5 went.

 

[Halfnutz]

Did you chamfer well after trimming?

Yes. Inside and out. The bullet aligns and will "hold" position when putting it in the Wilson seater.

 

[Halfnutz]

No no no

You don’t use a q-tip for this. You can use the ceramic media or dunk the neck in the graphite and tap the neck on a hard surface to get the excess out. Then you run the mandrel through, then back into the graphite before seating the bullet.

Slightly better. Still hitting 140 to fully seat.

 

[Halfnutz]

What size mandrel are you pushing through the neck? I have been assuming it is a .262

.262-.2625, with calipers.

 

[Halfnutz]

Bullet starts to seat at about 20-25lbs. Best is about 110lbs to fully seat.
I pull the handle down slowly in about 10 lb increments and watch for movement/contact with the seating stem to the seater body.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Not sure what's causing this.

I just started annealing with an Annealeez and using 750 tempilaq inside the case neck to set the timing.
Removed the expander from Hornady Custom Grade 6.5 CM dies, so I am only sizing the neck down and bumping the shoulder. Then run them over a 21st Century Mandrel die (tin coated).
Checked the necks with a .262 pin and the pin is stopping at the shoulder and case neck junction. A .261pin drops straight through. .263 pin is snug and takes a bit of pressure to start.
Tried seating a few bullets and they start at about 30-40lbs on the gage. Then it takes all they way up to 150+ to seat all the way.
Trimmed case length is 1.910.
140gr Bullet length is 1.340
COAL is 2.820.
I have the boat tail past the neck slightly.
Tried this on both Hornady and Nosler brass. With and without powder and am having the same issue.

I haven't found a bushing die for 6.5CM in stock.

Your bullet is hitting the doughnut at the shoulder junction causing the heavy seating.
Try a little test, push the mandrel in and out of the neck 3 or 4 times to iron out the doughnut then try seating the bullet.

 

[AllenOne1]

You say you can't find a bushing die (look at Whidden's site). I think you are sizing the neck down too far and then expecting the mandrel to force it back out to the correct size. In my opinion a mandrel can only open you back up a couple of thousands without having issues. Try it with the original sizing ball in it and see what happens. You could also size it with the die, anneal it again and then use the mandrel to finish size it. I think you need to find a bushing die or have your standard die honed out so that you are not sizing down so far.

 

[spife7980]

.262-.2625, with calipers.

And what’s your outside sized vs loaded neck diameter?

I think more lube during the mandrel process would be warranted almost always. I purposefully stand them up and spray lube in the necks from four directions before spraying the sides and shaking and then sizing and expanding. It just works better for everything.


And since then I’ve only had issues with the oxide residue crap. Have you run a brush through the case necks? It made a world of difference for me. Just a cheap nylon brush before seating makes it smoother and easier.

Very well could be a donut if your pin gauges are catching die to that and not plains thickness inconsistencies.

 

[6.5SH]

@ OP if you have one of the inexpensive digital borescopes/endoscopes use it to take a look inside the necks.

 

[AllenOne1]

And what’s your outside sized vs loaded neck diameter?

I think more lube during the mandrel process would be warranted almost always. I purposefully stand them up and spray lube in the necks from four directions before spraying the sides and shaking and then sizing and expanding. It just works better for everything.


And since then I’ve only had issues with the oxide residue crap. Have you run a brush through the case necks? It made a world of difference for me. Just a cheap nylon brush before seating makes it smoother and easier.

Very well could be a donut if your pin gauges are catching die to that and not plains thickness inconsistencies.

I suspect he is collapsing the neck shoulder area slight when he is using the mandrel. More lube and brushing is good advise.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Couple questions.
Actual size of the mandrel?
Actual sizes of the pin guages?
Bushing die? What bushing?
OD of the neck before and after sizing?

 

[Halfnutz]

Thanks for all the input.

I have ran a brush through.
I have dry lubed before the mandrel and before seating.

Via the pin gage there is an obvious internal donut and it shows when seating.

I will start looking for a bushing die so as to not oversize the neck down when bumping the shoulder. The Hornady takes it well under. Probably not conducive to brass life either.

I have 2 6.5CM rifles, the one I'm loading for now is a Nucleus, the other an AR platform. Looks like the Hornady dies will be dedicated to the AR and a seperate set for the Nuke. My goal here was to minimize ES that I have been seeing with the Nucleus loads.
One thing I haven't tried yet is using the Hornady size die with the expander post annealing.

Bushing dies have been out of stock everytime I think to look.

 

[918v]

Slightly better. Still hitting 140 to fully seat.

Bigger mandrel or bigger die. I use a Redding body die, Lee collet neck die, or a Forster with .289” honed neck. Mine seat easy.

 

[Halfnutz]

Found and ordered a Redding Type S die with .290 TiN bushing to try out. Hopefully this gets me on track.

 

[flyright]

When I began using the honed die and mandrel method, my results were great. However, I am beginning to see the internal donut more and more with brass sized this way. I plan to do a couple of control groups of once fired brass using the honed die with expander ball installed and with and without using the mandrel after.

A friend of mine has experienced the same and has since went back to just using the standard expander ball, skipping the mandrel, and his neck size/seat forces are very consistent now. He believes the donut problem has resolved as well. Just my .03.

 

[918v]

When I began using the honed die and mandrel method, my results were great. However, I am beginning to see the internal donut more and more with brass sized this way. I plan to do a couple of control groups of once fired brass using the honed die with expander ball installed and with and without using the mandrel after.

A friend of mine has experienced the same and has since went back to just using the standard expander ball, skipping the mandrel, and his neck size/seat forces are very consistent now. He believes the donut problem has resolved as well. Just my .03.

Could it be that the expander ball in conjunction with an oversized neck irons out the donut?

I never get donuts but I use my Lee collet neck die and maybe it squishes them out before they have a chance to form.

 

[whatsupdoc]

When I began using the honed die and mandrel method, my results were great. However, I am beginning to see the internal donut more and more with brass sized this way. I plan to do a couple of control groups of once fired brass using the honed die with expander ball installed and with and without using the mandrel after.

A friend of mine has experienced the same and has since went back to just using the standard expander ball, skipping the mandrel, and his neck size/seat forces are very consistent now. He believes the donut problem has resolved as well. Just my .03.

See post 42

Internal Donut on new brass?

I have some new ADG 6.5 PRC brass that has a slight internal donut or raised rim at the bottom of the neck. These were prepped with a turning mandrel, trimmed/chamfered and lubed with HbN prior to loading. Loads fine until the 156gr EOL hits that donut. Anyone run into this? Possible...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Halfnutz]

See post 42

Internal Donut on new brass?

I have some new ADG 6.5 PRC brass that has a slight internal donut or raised rim at the bottom of the neck. These were prepped with a turning mandrel, trimmed/chamfered and lubed with HbN prior to loading. Loads fine until the 156gr EOL hits that donut. Anyone run into this? Possible...

www.snipershide.com

Thanks for that link. I had read most of that thread when it was first started and thought it applied to my situation but hadn't taken the time to find it again yet.

 

[Tokay444]

100% donut.

I don’t think so. There is always going to be a tight spot at the neck/shoulder junction due to the way brass flows through the sizing die.

 

[Steel head]

A tight spot at the neck shoulder junction isn’t normal,
It’s a donut.

Once you get them it always seems you gotta cut them out.

 

[918v]

A tight spot at the neck shoulder junction isn’t normal,
It’s a donut.

Not necessarily. If you invest in sensitive bullet seating equipment you will realize that bullet seating pressure is not uniform from start to finish. It always increases as the bullet shank penetrates the neck/shoulder junction.

 

[trebor244]

No no no

You don’t use a q-tip for this. You can use the ceramic media or dunk the neck in the graphite and tap the neck on a hard surface to get the excess out. Then you run the mandrel through, then back into the graphite before seating the bullet.

You might also want to check the neck wall thickness for consistency. Remember brass flows forward and may produce inconsistent thickness

 

[garey]

https://www.amazon.com/Teslong-Borescope-Side-View-Semi-Rigid-Smartphone/dp/B07TTQF24F/ref=sr_1_17_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=BORESCOPE&qid=1622778999&sr=8-17-spons&psc=1&smid=AFI3X2X3YFS02&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExVTlEUThKSURNOU0mZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAxNTUyODgyOUZQQVM2VVU0SjBOJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA5MzI0NDcyMU1PWjMyRlhMMzZCJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

This is a pretty cheap investment and I like mine about as well as my Gradient Lens borescope. It may or may not help see the issue inside the neck, but it's also a good excuse to have one for bore inspection and other needs for visualization inside tight spots. Handy for verifying actual AR15 gas block hole alignment, etc. (disclaimer: I'm not associated with Teslong in any way)

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

If you have the tools to accurately measure all areas of the case, there should be no questions whats going on.

 

[Halfnutz]

Update. My Redding type S die and .290 bushing showed up and made a huge difference. I am no longer getting the constriction at the base of the neck and seating force extremes are now 40 to 55 lbs on the ones I have tested.

 

[AllenOne1]

Update. My Redding type S die and .290 bushing showed up and made a huge difference. I am no longer getting the constriction at the base of the neck and seating force extremes are now 40 to 55 lbs on the ones I have tested.

Dies make a difference, I went through 3 sizing dies before I got one that sized everything correctly for my chamber. Glad you're able to move forward now and feel good about what is happening.