Form 1 supressors mass denial.

[Maxduty]

Update on Diversified Machine Products

It has been some time since my last article on this issue and I know many people have continued to watch for updates, both here and across the various forums that have been discussing this issue on…

blog.princelaw.com

Looks like just having the parts is illegal possession of an unregistered silencer now.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I never purchased anything from Diversified Machine. However, if I did, I would have destroyed the parts as outlined by the ATF (crushing, shredding, melting). If I were to submit a Form 1 and make a silencer after approval by the ATF, I would not have used parts purchased from Diversified Machine because those parts would have been destroyed prior to submitting the Form 1. If I purchased anything from Diversified Machine I would let my attorney make all public statements on my behalf.

Maybe resubmit your disapproved Form 1? I suspect the blanket denial was made in error.

 

[brazz04]

There's a long thread on the DM stuff. Not great, hoping they dont come after every manufacturer that makes parts.

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-by-diversified-machine.7108851/#post-9988703

 

[FuhQ]

I saw something about this on the GOA's instagram account. I don't think it's just the DM products... I think they're just denying ALL Form 1 cans now, from the way it sounded. If so, that is REALLY overstepping their damn boundaries with refusing to approve a law-abiding citizens' 2A rights. It's time to abolish the ATF and completely repeal the NFA and the Hughes Amendment. It's beyond time, but now they're outright denying citizen's their rights? Who TF do they think they are???

 

[phlegethon]

I had intended to build a silencer using a quietbore kit, but it was denied today with the explanation that the parts I was starting with already constitute a suppressor. And I don’t think they asked what parts I was starting with. Seems like they don’t allow form 1 suppressors at the moment.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I had intended to build a silencer using a quietbore kit, but it was denied today with the explanation that the parts I was starting with already constitute a suppressor. And I don’t think they asked what parts I was starting with. Seems like they don’t allow form 1 suppressors at the moment.

This is troublesome. Either they consider a threaded pipe a suppressor, or anything resembling the cups, even without holes. Either is a gross overstep.

 

[Renegade]

In the dozen or so F1s I have done, not once did I tell them what parts or raw materials I had or did not have.

 

[phlegethon]

There are some posts about this on the NFA subreddit. It appears to be a policy shift that hasn’t been announced or explained and will not doubt end up in litigation. But it does sound like all form 1s for suppressors are being denied now.

 

[M4orturnate]

How many rights are we going to allow to be taken? At what point do we say no? The federal government is nothing but a burden to the tax payer. Has the government or its entities improved your life ever? In any way?

 

[Hoyter87]

Both of my pending form 1 builds received the same disapproval reason that pretty much says, if you even have the parts you are now in violation of federal law. Received disapproval overnight.

 

[Bryan W M]

Ok so if you submit a form 1 and they state you have illegal parts how long till they show up at your door?
How many more years till we are only allowed one kid? One gas powered vehicle?

 

[phlegethon]

How many rights are we going to allow to be taken? At what point do we say no? The federal government is nothing but a burden to the tax payer. Has the government or its entities improved your life ever? In any way?

Well, yeah, the federal government has done countless things to improve my life, from creating and funding the system that allowed for my education to creating and maintaining the highways, overseeing commercial aviation, the postal service until the recent sabotage, preventing foreign invasion, funding large parts of the healthcare system…so yeah this is a bad move by ATF but I really don’t want to live in Somalia either.

 

[M4orturnate]

Well, yeah, the federal government has done countless things to improve my life, from creating and funding the system that allowed for my education to creating and maintaining the highways, overseeing commercial aviation, the postal service until the recent sabotage, preventing foreign invasion, funding large parts of the healthcare system…so yeah this is a bad move by ATF but I really don’t want to live in Somalia either.

All at a cost much higher than if done privately. The government is the reason all the things you listed cost as much as they do. Invasion? From who? Evrn without a standing army i highly doubt it.

 

[phlegethon]

All at a cost much higher than if done privately. The government is the reason all the things you listed cost as much as they do. Invasion? From who? Evrn without a standing army i highly doubt it.

Yep, totally, that’s why so many other countries have completely privatized their governments.

 

[Maxduty]

So, Im guessing that every machine/fabrication shop that has tubing and solid round is now in violation of federal law? Metal suppliers now need ffls and transfer fees for buying metal stock? Too broad of a rule to be effective.

 

[phlegethon]

Quietbore immediately canceled and refunded my order on request, for whatever that’s worth.

 

[AMGtuned]

This is a mess. Been following it for a couple days on form1. There has been a decent amount of input there; enough to deduce that the disapproval is not limited to DM customers. Or ANY solvent companies customers for that matter. People who haven't even ordered raw material have received this.

QB is one of the key players here, IMO. When they got pinched, they made a policy change.

QB sold solvent traps: when they got in bed with the feds, their inventory alone gave them enough to go after all of F1 market. The parts, types, shapes, locations, uses, etc., all sold under one roof. Then, they required an approved F1 for purchase; effectively luring their customer base into VOLUNTARILY admitting what the parts would be used for. Bingo. There's your intent.

They got out of the hot seat, by helping toss all of the F1 world into the fire. No doubt it has helped set precedent for the garbage were seeing now.

It also pisses the crown off, when they don't have full control. Like an evil step-parent. Lots of records and such involved with F4; not as much with F1

 

[ToddM]

While I don't agree with NFA period, I doubt any of us do. This isn't surprising to me, and the ATF hints at it in the denial that everyone is getting. Unlike say an 80% frame, where a firearm technically is only one single part, you can have all of the other parts but until that 1 part (say a frame) passes a threshold you don't have a firearm, any part used for a supressor is considered the supressor.

With these supressor kits/solvent tanks, I've yet to see a single kit that requires the user to machine or modify every part of it. So just having to drill a hole in a couple parts isn't "manufacturing". Go apply for a machinist job and put on your resume that your only skill is drilling a hole, see if you get hired. Once companies started providing full kits and marketing them as form 1 solutions, where only some parts needed modification it was only a matter of time.

We keep seeing it, some in the industry want to keep pushing the boundaries, pistol "braces", binary triggers, bump stocks, "solvent tanks" etc. As with any exploited loophole, exploit it too much and someone tightens the loop. Manufacturers make tons of $ doing it, think how many pistol braces have been sold the last few years, and if the ATF clamps down on them, the manufacturers don't care they made their $.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I guess I can't buy oil filters for my truck anymore because someone, somewhere punched a hole in theirs...

Crock of shit.
Go after the people that refuse to fill out and pay for the form 1.

 

[hlee]

I guess I can't buy oil filters for my truck anymore because someone, somewhere punched a hole in theirs...

Crock of shit.
Go after the people that refuse to fill out and pay for the form 1.

Easier to go after the ones that do fill out the forms…

 

[Longshot231]

 

[Hoyter87]

What I have a real problem with is I can have a roll of duct tape and a water bottle and look at them and say "I could build a suppressor out of these parts." Am I now committing a felon? By their legal definition my intent is to take these parts and build a suppressor. Just like any form 1 kit on the market. They're making it illegal to think.

Frankly, the fact that there are not more folks out there making a bigger deal out of this is surprising to me. If you own a form 1 can that means they're going to, at the minimum, make you swap it over to a form 4 and wait. Meanwhile, your once legal muffler now makes you a felon that can serve 10 years.

Don't even get me going what this is going to do to pistol braces, form 1 SBR, etc. If there is a slippery slope we are headed to bottom and apparently not many give a fuck.

 

[hlee]

What I have a real problem with is I can have a roll of duct tape and a water bottle and look at them and say "I could build a suppressor out of these parts." Am I now committing a felon? By their legal definition my intent is to take these parts and build a suppressor. Just like any form 1 kit on the market. They're making it illegal to think.

Frankly, the fact that there are not more folks out there making a bigger deal out of this is surprising to me. If you own a form 1 can that means they're going to, at the minimum, make you swap it over to a form 4 and wait. Meanwhile, your once legal muffler now makes you a felon that can serve 10 years.

Don't even get me going what this is going to do to pistol braces, form 1 SBR, etc. If there is a slippery slope we are headed to bottom and apparently not many give a fuck.

Based on previous videos from the guy posted above (Washington Gun Law), approved Form1 cans are approved. This sounds like a "great reset." Deny everything and start over. I mean, where on the Form 1 do you state the materials from which you are making the can? I can't Form 4 pipe and caps from Lowes. And, while I don't have the machinery to mill parts from raw stock, there are people that do. If one were going to cut the parts from raw billets of metal, a Form 1 IS the appropriate form. And, and, Quiet Bore was requiring Form 1 approvals before shipping kits, so one doesn't even need to be in possession of any materials to make a can before getting approval. I foresee a lot of litigation and then a "walk back," though it will take a few years... Maybe a new congress can slap the taste out of the ATF's mouth, but I doubt it.

 

[Longshot231]

Based on previous videos from the guy posted above (Washington Gun Law), approved Form1 cans are approved. This sounds like a "great reset." Deny everything and start over. I mean, where on the Form 1 do you state the materials from which you are making the can? I can't Form 4 pipe and caps from Lowes. And, while I don't have the machinery to mill parts from raw stock, there are people that do. If one were going to cut the parts from raw billets of metal, a Form 1 IS the appropriate form. And, and, Quiet Bore was requiring Form 1 approvals before shipping kits, so one doesn't even need to be in possession of any materials to make a can before getting approval. I foresee a lot of litigation and then a "walk back," though it will take a few years... Maybe a new congress can slap the taste out of the ATF's mouth, but I doubt it.

I was going to say exactly what you just said. I didn't because I wanted to see if anyone else had the same observation that I did.

On the Form 1, all you put down is the model designation & serial number, caliber and length of the suppressor. You could do the same thing with a sweet potato.

So how do they know what parts you have to begin with.

A machinist could start with a bar of round stock and start from scratch on his form 1 can.

 

[powdahound76]

Its all part of the plan.

Careful the man who just wanted to be left alone.

 

[Mike Casselton]

You want the gov to go after Americans that don’t bend the knee and bow to tyrants. That’s a fucked up thing to say.

Don't read into what I wrote.

 

[Gasgun]

You want the gov to go after Americans that don’t bend the knee and bow to tyrants. That’s a fucked up thing to say.

Gun owners really are our own worst enemy.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Asking for approval is really just a formality and good faith gesture.

Like asking a kid, "Do you mind if I date your mother?"

 

[rlsmith1]

Are SBR Form 1's being disapproved as well then?

 

[stefan73]

Are SBR Form 1's being disapproved as well then?

Good question! What happens if I have a mill and a lathe and make my own suppressor not using a solvent trap?

 

[AMGtuned]

I have read that the instructions on the form will change; and users will have to submit a plan of action/schematic

 

[rlsmith1]

Good question! What happens if I have a mill and a lathe and make my own suppressor not using a solvent trap?

You can't exercise your right as an American citizen

 

[stefan73]

I have read that the instructions on the form will change; and users will have to submit a plan of action/schematic

Well, that's some pinko commie crap to exercise a right.

 

[rlsmith1]

Well, that's some pinko commie crap to exercise a right.

Yep, finally getting to the point even the thick headed (not saying you are) have to realize rights are being denied. Nevermind the whole right delayed and denied bit...

 

[rlsmith1]

I have read that the instructions on the form will change; and users will have to submit a plan of action/schematic

Probably would be wise to give them the schematic of your house too so they know where to come knocking. Save everyone some time

 

[Lawless]

Further, it seems those with approved form 1s from years ago that were built with purchased machined parts will be revoked. The argument is that any purchased part is a suppressor in and of itself and should have been sold on a form 4.

This was posted today as an exchange between QB and the ATF.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Lots of little component makers out there making storage tubes and dividers and end caps.

 

[AMGtuned]

Lots of little component makers out there making storage tubes and dividers and end caps.

Not any more. Lol. I only know of one, with a functional site right now. They've all bowed out, until there is a clear decision released

ETA; I'm not checking any of them, I have machine tools. This has been learned from following the discussion

 

[phlegethon]

Further, it seems those with approved form 1s from years ago that were built with purchased machined parts will be revoked. The argument is that any purchased part is a suppressor in and of itself and should have been sold on a form 4.

This was posted today as an exchange between QB and the ATF.

View attachment 7819285

This is consistent with what I had assumed, which is that the ATF believes that the kits are too close in form and intent to being silencers. in other words they are not 80% lowers, they are like 99% lowers. I suspect that reasoning will hold up in the end, and the kit makers will be a thing of the past.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Not any more. Lol. I only know of one, with a functional site right now. They've all bowed out, until there is a clear decision released

ETA; I'm not checking any of them, I have machine tools. This has been learned from following the discussion

Oh shit you're right. The ones I know of are stuck on error loading page.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I'll bet the next shoe that is about to drop is that the ATF is going to go after QB and all the rest of the F1 "kit" suppliers and make them hand over all their files and run them out of business then start threatening everybody that ever bought anything from them.

 

[wayno1]

Ok so if you submit a form 1 and they state you have illegal parts how long till they show up at your door?
How many more years till we are only allowed one kid? One gas powered vehicle?

Supposedly canada outlawed ice cars already

 

[WindstormSCR]

Further, it seems those with approved form 1s from years ago that were built with purchased machined parts will be revoked. The argument is that any purchased part is a suppressor in and of itself and should have been sold on a form 4.

This was posted today as an exchange between QB and the ATF.

View attachment 7819285

“Since parts are not just parts”

I have no words for this, it goes beyond straining logic and credulity.

 

[hlee]

So, what does this do to end caps and mounts made for factory built suppressors? If an end cap/mount/tube/baffle/etc is a suppressor, are we going to transfer all of these items on Form4s?

 

[KZP]

So, what does this do to end caps and mounts made for factory built suppressors? If an end cap/mount/tube/baffle/etc is a suppressor, are we going to transfer all of these items on Form4s?

 

[Med Beast]

You want the gov to go after Americans that don’t bend the knee and bow to tyrants.Fuck you, ya fuck’n stupid fuck..

You want the gov to go after Americans that don’t bend the knee and bow to tyrants. That’s a fucked up thing to say.

Given, we’re doing our damndest to follow their communist/tyrannical rules, FUCK YES! Fuck you! That’s exactly what we want,

 

[rlsmith1]

Time to use their definitions... “From my cold dead hands” typically applies to firearms.

I read 3 lines of the QB conversation before I had to stop out of frustration that QB would ask and that the ATF give such insane answers

 

[WindstormSCR]

So, what does this do to end caps and mounts made for factory built suppressors? If an end cap/mount/tube/baffle/etc is a suppressor, are we going to transfer all of these items on Form4s?

Thanks for depriving me of another couple hundred $$$ this week before shit goes that dumb

 

[darkfader]

What a crock of shit. The never ending assault on freedom continues.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

why did they all of a sudden decide to go after form1 builds? (rhetorical question, i know the answer is because they can).

its not like they aren't getting their $200 bucks for the stamp. i could at least see the mental gymnastics with braces because they weren't getting their $200 for SBR's anymore.

but seriously this just doesn't pass the smell test for me. maybe my tinfoil is too tight but who was losing money in this? its always about the money