I don't think the form 4 wait vs form 1 wait was really tied to anything other than with the form 1 it was possible to efile. That was the main speed factor and my reason for doing it. Now that form 4 efile is open, and hopefully working soon enough, I don't see as much appeal in the form 1 game.
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Form 1 supressors mass denial.
- Thread starter Maxduty
- Start date
If I recall, those previously approved with a Form1 to build were told they didn’t need to turn over/destroy their cans . Let’s see how far this goes, Cotton.
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In response to you inquiry reference ID: XXXXXX, Permit number XXXXX
Q; Pictures of the parts that you will use to make the silencer (the pictures should be clear and allow the identification of the parts photographed),
A: I have not sourced the materials yet, because items that could be converted (in line filters, etc.) are commonly available.
Q; A description of the processes you will use to assemble or fabricate the silencer,
A: Probably drill a 6mm hole through a yet to be purchased filtration system and add a 1/2-24 threaded adapter if one is not already on the filter (these usually come this way, see NAPA, AutoZone, et al.)
Q; The product, model, or kit name, if any, of each device and/or part that you will use to make the silencer, and
A:TBD
Q: The source from which the parts were obtained, i.e., the name of the store, website, etc.
A: NAPA, AutoZone, ebay. Haven't decided until I get approval
Q; Pictures of the parts that you will use to make the silencer (the pictures should be clear and allow the identification of the parts photographed),
A: I have not sourced the materials yet, because items that could be converted (in line filters, etc.) are commonly available.
Q; A description of the processes you will use to assemble or fabricate the silencer,
A: Probably drill a 6mm hole through a yet to be purchased filtration system and add a 1/2-24 threaded adapter if one is not already on the filter (these usually come this way, see NAPA, AutoZone, et al.)
Q; The product, model, or kit name, if any, of each device and/or part that you will use to make the silencer, and
A:TBD
Q: The source from which the parts were obtained, i.e., the name of the store, website, etc.
A: NAPA, AutoZone, ebay. Haven't decided until I get approval
They do seem to have created quite the catch 22.
On one hand, the ATF is saying that anything intended to make a suppressor IS a suppressor, and possession of an unregistered suppressor is a felony.
On the other hand, they are requiring descriptions and pictures of the materials being used to make the suppressor, in order to approve them.
Is a schematic of a suppressor also a suppressor? How about a STL file used to 3D print a suppressor. Is that a suppressor? A picture? Is a picture of a suppressor a suppressor? A carefully worded description? Is a description of a suppressor a suppressor? Does the computer used to create the STL file that is used to 3D print a suppressor also become a suppressor?
On one hand, the ATF is saying that anything intended to make a suppressor IS a suppressor, and possession of an unregistered suppressor is a felony.
On the other hand, they are requiring descriptions and pictures of the materials being used to make the suppressor, in order to approve them.
Is a schematic of a suppressor also a suppressor? How about a STL file used to 3D print a suppressor. Is that a suppressor? A picture? Is a picture of a suppressor a suppressor? A carefully worded description? Is a description of a suppressor a suppressor? Does the computer used to create the STL file that is used to 3D print a suppressor also become a suppressor?
Maybe the companies making suppressors lobbied for this. Think about the financial loss if 25% of the market switched to form1s. Follow the money
ATF Form 1 Update: Take Action Now! - American Suppressor Association
Contact Your Legislators.Take Action Now! WASHINGTON, D.C. – On February 28th, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) summarily denied 847 Form 1 applications to make a suppressor because they believed the applicants were using solvent trap kits. On March 3rd, ATF notified...
americansuppressorassociation.com
DoneATF Form 1 Update: Take Action Now! - American Suppressor Association
Contact Your Legislators.Take Action Now! WASHINGTON, D.C. – On February 28th, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) summarily denied 847 Form 1 applications to make a suppressor because they believed the applicants were using solvent trap kits. On March 3rd, ATF notified...
The crazy thing about all of this is that at no time during the NFA hearings of 1934 did they ever discuss suppressors. I printed out the hearings transcripts to read through and highlight. Nothing about suppressors. The whole NFA legal premise is a presumption of guilt and criminal activity by normal citizens, not criminals. They explicitly and repeatedly emphasized that the NFA was not for actual criminals, because they would of course not be following any laws anyway. It was preposterous because the main claim to why they needed the NFA was organized criminal activity caused by Prohibition, even though Prohibition had just been repealed the year prior.
Rifles weren’t in the original NFA draft, which was compiled by...wait for it, Attorney General Homer Stille Cummings, who was head of the DNC that campaigned hard for FDR in 1932, then was rewarded politically with US AG. His reasoning was faulty from an intellectual and Constitutional standard in every respect. You can’t have US law that is based on a presumption of criminal conduct for the people exercising inalienable rights recognized by the Bill of Rights, but they did it.
I and many other students of US firearms history have scoured the NFA proceedings looking for the reasoning as to why suppressors were included in 1934 and have all come up blank. It would be very easy to delete that portion of the NFA, as well as the SBS and SBR garbage.
His name and existence is a curse on our Nation that should be reviled whenever the NFA topic comes up. If I had a time machine....
Rifles weren’t in the original NFA draft, which was compiled by...wait for it, Attorney General Homer Stille Cummings, who was head of the DNC that campaigned hard for FDR in 1932, then was rewarded politically with US AG. His reasoning was faulty from an intellectual and Constitutional standard in every respect. You can’t have US law that is based on a presumption of criminal conduct for the people exercising inalienable rights recognized by the Bill of Rights, but they did it.
I and many other students of US firearms history have scoured the NFA proceedings looking for the reasoning as to why suppressors were included in 1934 and have all come up blank. It would be very easy to delete that portion of the NFA, as well as the SBS and SBR garbage.
His name and existence is a curse on our Nation that should be reviled whenever the NFA topic comes up. If I had a time machine....
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I wonder if we're doing this wrong? Maybe the real answer is to flood them with exactly what they want. AFTER they set the goal-posts - if they do. They can only delay so long before the legal system sees what they're doing, and takes the other side. They cannot deny through delay, eventually we will win that one. It sucks in the mean time, I understand. (SEE ABOVE POSTS, as they illustrate the current status of wait times...)
I propose the following solution: Anyone wanting a kit simply pays an extra fee toward the SOT tax and compliance costs of the kit manufacturer. The kit makers are all form 4 manufacturers now anyway, folks. The kits are all form 4 approved, manufactured, and sent via the same channels already in use.
I see potential, and the ability to finger the ATF hard. So what? You bastards set the rules, now deal with the mass compliance.
What, this is worse than the current situation? Anyone believe it gets reversed in court faster than this compliance would? In the end, their goal of keeping these kits out of the citizens hands is foiled, and this step becomes nothing more than a giant waste of time and elitist defeatism. Compliance like this is infuriating, but it just makes me smile inside to do it their way, form 4 and all, then smile at them while they have to approve them.
The time sucks. I know. No one likes to wait. But for the sake of reality and discussion, is there anything else that would reverse this faster than just doing it their way? I don't think so, and apart from civil disobedience, or outright uprising, nothing's going to change without far more drastic and/or more delayed measures...
As mentioned above, the ATF exists in a state of assuming guilt. How hard is it to prove guilt when the entire industry just does what you say has to be done? To paint with that brush the entire industry that remains law abiding, responsible, character driven individuals? I know it's easy to laugh at this, but this is what the others side does. They think, scheme, and look down the road, knowing the real victories are ones that win in the long term.
The time may well come when it's a bridge too far. When that day comes, the ATF will be long ignored, and irrelevant to the players... and the goal posts won't exist to get in the way.
I propose the following solution: Anyone wanting a kit simply pays an extra fee toward the SOT tax and compliance costs of the kit manufacturer. The kit makers are all form 4 manufacturers now anyway, folks. The kits are all form 4 approved, manufactured, and sent via the same channels already in use.
I see potential, and the ability to finger the ATF hard. So what? You bastards set the rules, now deal with the mass compliance.
What, this is worse than the current situation? Anyone believe it gets reversed in court faster than this compliance would? In the end, their goal of keeping these kits out of the citizens hands is foiled, and this step becomes nothing more than a giant waste of time and elitist defeatism. Compliance like this is infuriating, but it just makes me smile inside to do it their way, form 4 and all, then smile at them while they have to approve them.
The time sucks. I know. No one likes to wait. But for the sake of reality and discussion, is there anything else that would reverse this faster than just doing it their way? I don't think so, and apart from civil disobedience, or outright uprising, nothing's going to change without far more drastic and/or more delayed measures...
As mentioned above, the ATF exists in a state of assuming guilt. How hard is it to prove guilt when the entire industry just does what you say has to be done? To paint with that brush the entire industry that remains law abiding, responsible, character driven individuals? I know it's easy to laugh at this, but this is what the others side does. They think, scheme, and look down the road, knowing the real victories are ones that win in the long term.
The time may well come when it's a bridge too far. When that day comes, the ATF will be long ignored, and irrelevant to the players... and the goal posts won't exist to get in the way.
Hopefully, soon the answer will be NEVER...
This is the first huge step to gutting the NFA. If these get passed, and if the bumpstock case going to the Supreme Court is a win for us (it's poised to be, and looking like it will be a slam-dunk), that will be HUGE steps forward in reigning-in the ATF and their arbitrary and unconstitutional "redefinitions" of previously legal things.
ATF, Probably: "Remember folks, just saying the word suppressor, is a suppressor."
I predict it will be months before someone, who responded with information, will get an approval. It's going to require someone to sit down and look over the info that is sent in by the applicant and decide if that person is “compliant”.
My worthless senator didn’t sign.
It's a pretty good guess that the ATF will not comply with the request. They want to keep their secret a secret.
Well I in fact didn't have the parts before my form 1 came in. I tried to get one for quiet bore based on my submitted forms but when I found out they wanted to see the form 1 first, I just got a refund and waited until it came in, then I bought stuff from elsewhere to make what I said I was going to make on my form 1. I don't see how they could assume anything and if they aren't assuming they need to have a warrant. A Federal Judge should slap the piss out of them for this stunt and see what they are actually doing. Given the current administration, who knows what will happen.
.....ahh I know:
I just had an SBR go through and no one else has reported any issues with them. It seems limited to suppressors.
WTF. I just got mine back this morning "dis-approved". I said I was purchasing materials from a local metal supply house and would use a mill and a lathe fabricate the parts.
I think the approval rises and falls on "I haven't looked yet, and will when you give me an approval," vs. "this is specifically what I'm going to do."
Or, could be I just got someone reasonable at ATFE.
Its ponderous.
Or, could be I just got someone reasonable at ATFE.
Its ponderous.
A reasonable man wouldn’t work for the ATFE. Cross that one off.
Just read through the attachment. It said that one of RP forms wasn't signed. I submitted this in October. I have called 3 times asking if there was something wrong with the forms. Told them this was my first one I have done on a trust and wanted to make sure. All three times they said everything looks good, its just waiting for sign off. Just got off the phone with them again. Lady said that if I talked to the person answering the phone and didn't get transferred that they have no way of knowing if the forms are good or not as all they can see is the status. Total bummer. Looks like I'll be headed to the shop today to put another in jail. Got to imagine at this point I'll get that back before I'll get a new form 1 back.
Good to know approvals are possible. Congrats.
However, based on the Washington Gun Law videos and alleged "dimple" theory concerns the BATFE had with solvent trap products, that these answers resulted in an approval is interesting. Especially question #2.
Thank you,
MrSmith
Wonder why they didn't reject me when (or before for fuck sakes its only been 5 months) they sent the letter asking for more info? You think if it was one signature missing I could have gotten a call or email saying hey, sign and send in a new RP form. I think at this point they are just fishing for any reason to reject. Hell, the RP forms are in the file from the trust on other form 4 cans on that trust, they have them there.
As Sister Theresa @ St. Francis of Assis told me, "you are bold one, aren't you?"
... And a picture of your dog.
I wonder if a "Made in Texas" lawsuit should be filed now.
That's the whole point. Texas AG will file/fight on your behalf for just making the "request". You don't even have to make anything. It's preemptive lawsuit.
I got the following in an e-mail from QB:
"We've been quiet.
In the last few months the ATF has continually changed the name of the game when it comes to Form 1 products and how companies can operate within that space. Unlike most of these companies, QB has always had a FFL // SOT under the Creative Arms LLC. name. In light of the ATF's recent changes and how form 1s are being approved / denied on a whimsical at best decision making basis we have opted to bring the QB products into the Form 4 market at the same retail price!
What does that mean for you?
If you are looking to order one of our Form 4 products (suppressors) you will need to send us the contact information of your preferred NFA dealer for us to start the Form 3 transfer to them.
Eform 4 Wait times
We have processed over 40 form 4s using the new Eform system since the recent change over, and have seen an average wait time between 73-110 days."
"We've been quiet.
In the last few months the ATF has continually changed the name of the game when it comes to Form 1 products and how companies can operate within that space. Unlike most of these companies, QB has always had a FFL // SOT under the Creative Arms LLC. name. In light of the ATF's recent changes and how form 1s are being approved / denied on a whimsical at best decision making basis we have opted to bring the QB products into the Form 4 market at the same retail price!
What does that mean for you?
If you are looking to order one of our Form 4 products (suppressors) you will need to send us the contact information of your preferred NFA dealer for us to start the Form 3 transfer to them.
Eform 4 Wait times
We have processed over 40 form 4s using the new Eform system since the recent change over, and have seen an average wait time between 73-110 days."
Sure does, because now what they’re making is considered suppressor parts
FWIW my buddy, who got the same mass denial email posted here, repeatedly responded back stating that he hadn’t purchased any parts yet as that would constitute owning an illegal suppressor(s) and that continually asking him to do so only insinuated that the ATF presumed that he had already committed a felony and that asking him to purchase parts prior to an approved form 1 was entrapment. He literally responded like that 3-4 times. His form 1 was approved today without further inquiry.
Anyone who is the slightest bit worried about their well being, or legal status; should contact and retain their very own attorney. Not this guy.
I appreciate his keeping the public updated, but i think folks would be interested in hearing what different attorneys have to say.
I also don't like that, throughout this all, WK's major concern has seemingly always been the folks that DIDN'T follow the proper channels to build an F1.
He needs to take a lesson from those smoker-head lawyers......SHUT THE FUCK UP! No one from the gov wants to help you.
