Forster Full Length Sizing Die Question

[snbyiggidy1]

I am new to reloading and am confused at the results I am getting with the Forster sizing die. I am not seeing much change in brass after sizing. Here is some information as of now.

Factory .224 Valkyrie Hornady 88 ELDM ammo unfired measures at zero or -.001 using my Whidden Case Gauge. which as I understand it is right at SAAMI spec.

Same brass once fired reads at +.005-.006 using the same gauge.

After full length sizing same brass it reads + .004-.005 so only 1 to 2 thousandth decrease in shoulder bump if that is correct. This once fired brass is difficult to chamber in the same rifle.

So my questions are these.

1. Shouldn’t I see more of a change in the measurement after sizing?
2. More change should also mean more bump in shoulder length measurement? More like .004-.005?

3. How do you get this die to accomplish this increased sizing reduction if I am understanding this process correctly? As of now it is adjusted in the press as instructed by Forster screwed down to touch shell plate then 1/4 turn more to take all play out of press mechanism. Guess I don’t uhow I can make the die size more than it already is?

4. Is the amount of change in measurement from new to once fired seem correct as far as chamber size? I can’t remember what is considered acceptable when measuring?

I hope this is all clear. Any help would be great.

Thanks in advance for the help.
Scott

 

[spife7980]

What are your actual dimensions? Neck, shoulder and base diameters and the actual shoulder set back.

 

[918v]

Take the expander ball out, size the brass, and see if it’s still hard to chamber.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Is the die screwed down to touch the shell holder? The shoulder gets pushed back at the very last bit of travel. The shoulder will actually grow until you get to this point because you are squeezing the sides of the case but haven't touched the shoulder yet.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

What are your actual dimensions? Neck, shoulder and base diameters and the actual shoulder set back.

View attachment 7220182

I will post these later this morning. Will have to write down what I have. I did measure all that last night but didn’t write it down. Will post a picture similar so you can see

Take the expander ball out, size the brass, and see if it’s still hard to chamber.

I forgot to put that info in original post. I do not have the expander ball decapping rod in the die already. I removed it as I am decapping separately using a universal decap die. So that isn’t a factor at this point.

Is the die screwed down to touch the shell holder? The shoulder gets pushed back at the very last bit of travel. The shoulder will actually grow until you get to this point because you are squeezing the sides of the case but haven't touched the shoulder yet.

Yes that is done. It is screwed down to touch the shell plate then screwed in an extra 1/4 turn as instructed

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I will post these later this morning. Will have to write down what I have. I did measure all that last night but didn’t write it down. Will post a picture similar so you can see



I forgot to put that info in original post. I do not have the expander ball decapping rod in the die already. I removed it as I am decapping separately using a universal decap die. So that isn’t a factor at this point.




Yes that is done. It is screwed down to touch the shell plate then screwed in an extra 1/4 turn as instructed

Different shell holders can make a large difference. You could try a different brand shell holder, or have some one turn the face of yours down .005" or so.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Different shell holders can make a large difference. You could try a different brand shell holder, or have some one turn the face of yours down .005" or so.

Problem there is I am loading on a Forster Coax so not sure I can really do that.
Here are the numbers for my different cases. Hope this is all clear.

 

[918v]

Send it back with several cases and they will take material off the bottom of the die for you.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Send it back with several cases and they will take material off the bottom of the die for you.

Several of my once fired?

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Sent Forster an email. Will call if I don’t get a response soon. Guess I am a little shocked given perceived quality of these does that this is necessary. But I am new to this so maybe this is a common issue with reloading does?

 

[918v]

Several of my once fired?

Yes

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Problem there is I am loading on a Forster Coax so not sure I can really do that.
Here are the numbers for my different cases. Hope this is all clear.

View attachment 7220440

Yeah, that is a problem for sure.

918v said it already, that die needs to go back.

Mistakes or just something as simple as tolerance stacking can happen to anyone.

 

[918v]

Sent Forster an email. Will call if I don’t get a response soon. Guess I am a little shocked given perceived quality of these does that this is necessary. But I am new to this so maybe this is a common issue with reloading does?

It has nothing to do with the quality of the dies. Your chamber is too short.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Yes

Yeah, that is a problem for sure.

918v said it already, that die needs to go back.

Mistakes or just something as simple as tolerance stacking can happen to anyone.

Awesome thanks for the help and info. I hope to hear from them soon. So I guess I was right that there was an issue. I kept thinking something is wrong with the die but then kept thinking no I am new to this I must be missing something.

 

[_Raining]

Is this a bolt gun or a semi auto?

 

[snbyiggidy1]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the dies. Your chamber is too short.

chamber is too short? Help me understand this better please. If factory ammo is SAAMI spec and measures as such in my Whidden gauge. What is the acceptable amount of change in shoulder after being fired? It looks like my brass changed about 6 thousandths which I was under the understanding that was good. Meaning a tight or well cut chamber? That if it changed too much that was an indication the chamber was too big? Shouldn’t the sizing die take brass back to SAAMI ? Which it doesn’t change the shoulder measurement at all almost like it doesn’t make contact with the shoulder at all. Again just trying to understand but I don’t see how that translates to too small of a chamber? Hoping to learn.

 

[padom]

I still havent seen the correct info from you and measurements. All your virgin info means nothing and those measurements you posted mean nothing when it comes to sizing bras properly. See how @spife7980 case headspace numbers measure 1.453? Thats his fired case headspace for that specific rifle using that specific brass. That number never changes. Thats the number he uses to setup his FL sizing die to properly bump the shoulder back.

Do you have a case comparator??? Take your 1x Hornady brass, deprime it, clean it then measure the case headspace with a Hornady case comparator or similar type of tool. If that measurement is say 1.453 then write that down. That is your fired case headspace for that rifles chamber with that brass.

Now, screw your Forster FL sizing die into the press with the shell plate at its raised position and screw the die down till it touches the shell holder then back off 1/2 turn.

Now put some lube on that piece of brass. Not OneShot. Use my favorite, Imperial Sizing Wax, Unique or a proper Lanolin mix. Now size that case and measure the case headspace again. If it still measures 1.453" or probably a little longer from stretch, screw the die down another 1/4 turn and size again. Rinse and repeat till that case measures 1.453 - .002 for a bolt gun so 1.451" is what you keep sizing and screwing the die down till your case headspace measures that. For a semi auto take .003-.005 off. Once your case is sizing your brass to that number lock that die down. Your done, it never changes.

What your new cases, or factory ammo brass measure mean NOTHING. You only care about case headspace of brass fired in YOUR chamber.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Is this a bolt gun or a semi auto?

Semi auto. AR platform.

 

[padom]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the dies. Your chamber is too short.

How have you determined this with the information and numbers he has posted??? None of the numbers he posted are his case headspace measurement.....

 

[padom]

Semi auto. AR platform.

Good, so tell us exactly what tool your using to measure "Case Headspace" (which you have not given us that correct measurement yet, then subtract .003" for a precision AR15 or .005" for a plinker...

 

[918v]

How have you determined this with the information and numbers he has posted??? None of the numbers he posted are his case headspace measurement.....

His measured amount of bump

 

[padom]

His measured amount of bump

I still dont follow.... Whats the base number (Case headspace) of that 1x brass before he "bumped" anything???? You need that number to base all sizing info and die setup off of... Just like @spife7980 posted above...

 

[918v]

chamber is too short? Help me understand this better please. If factory ammo is SAAMI spec and measures as such in my Whidden gauge. What is the acceptable amount of change in shoulder after being fired? It looks like my brass changed about 6 thousandths which I was under the understanding that was good. Meaning a tight or well cut chamber? That if it changed too much that was an indication the chamber was too big? Shouldn’t the sizing die take brass back to SAAMI ? Which it doesn’t change the shoulder measurement at all almost like it doesn’t make contact with the shoulder at all. Again just trying to understand but I don’t see how that translates to too small of a chamber? Hoping to learn.

Because Forster philosophy is to bump less. Redding philosophy is to bump more. Factory ammo varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, lot to lot, and you can’t rely on what you measure.

Bottom line is your die isn’t bumping the shoulder enough.

 

[918v]

I still dont follow.... Whats the base number (Case headspace) of that 1x brass before he "bumped" anything???? You need that number to base all sizing info and die setup off of... Just like @spife7980 posted above...

In his first post he stated he is bumping .001” with the die set to cam over. He also said his bolt closes hard. That tells me he is at zero clearance so the die needs to be made to bump more.

 

[spife7980]

Shouldn’t the sizing die take brass back to SAAMI ?

Only if you are wanting to go all the way back to saami. Doing so will likely overwork your brass more than necessary and lead to shortened brass life.
If you are going to be putting this brass back into your rifle then you really only need to size it as much as necessary to not have an interference fit in your chamber, .001-.002 in a bolt and .003-.004 in a semi is all the shoulder set back from fired to sized that is necessary.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

I still havent seen the correct info from you and measurements. All your virgin info means nothing and those measurements you posted mean nothing when it comes to sizing bras properly. See how @spife7980 case headspace numbers measure 1.453? Thats his fired case headspace for that specific rifle using that specific brass. That number never changes. Thats the number he uses to setup his FL sizing die to properly bump the shoulder back.

Do you have a case comparator??? Take your 1x Hornady brass, deprime it, clean it then measure the case headspace with a Hornady case comparator or similar type of tool. If that measurement is say 1.453 then write that down. That is your fired case headspace for that rifles chamber with that brass.

Now, screw your Forster FL sizing die into the press with the shell plate at its raised position and screw the die down till it touches the shell holder then back off 1/2 turn.

Now put some lube on that piece of brass. Not OneShot. Use my favorite, Imperial Sizing Wax, Unique or a proper Lanolin mix. Now size that case and measure the case headspace again. If it still measures 1.453" or probably a little longer from stretch, screw the die down another 1/4 turn and size again. Rinse and repeat till that case measures 1.453 - .002 for a bolt gun so 1.451" is what you keep sizing and screwing the die down till your case headspace measures that. For a semi auto take .003-.005 off. Once your case is sizing your brass to that number lock that die down. Your done, it never changes.

What your new cases, or factory ammo brass measure mean NOTHING. You only care about case headspace of brass fired in YOUR chamber.

I only included the virgin brass as a comparison in change from new to once fired. I do not have a hornady case comparator. I have a Whidden Case Gauge shown below. That number is included at the bottom of my measurements. As I understand it that is the same as the hornady numbers it just uses a different way of measurement. My headspace is the +.005-.006 number up from the new again only for comparison. I then need to bump that measurement back down .005 for an semi auto which as the measurements show the die does not change that measurement at all. No argument intended but I do believe the numbers I included do show what you are asking. It just shows it in a different way. And that is why I am confused.

 

[padom]

Because Forster philosophy is to bump less. Redding philosophy is to bump more. Factory ammo varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, lot to lot, and you can’t rely on what you measure.

Bottom line is your die isn’t bumping the shoulder enough.

He hasnt posted a base to shoulder measurement yet... How have you determined this? Every number he posted on 1x resized brass on his paper has reduced... Even though none of that is the only important number we are all (or should all be) looking for...


Here is the proper way to measure a 1x, deprimed piece of brass prior to setting up and FL sizing die.





This is the case headspace measurement of a 1x piece of 6.5cm brass shot in my Mega/Bartlein 6.5cm gasser. I have my Forster FL Sizing die set to bump my brass back .003" so all my sized brass measures 1.527"

Done.

 

[padom]

In his first post he stated he is bumping .001” with the die set to cam over. He also said his bolt closes hard. That tells me he is at zero clearance so the die needs to be made to bump more.

While I see what your saying, I take all of that info with a grain of salt. Without a case headspace measurement, then proper die setup based off that measurement, we cant be sure of anything.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Only if you are wanting to go all the way back to saami. Doing so will likely overwork your brass more than necessary and lead to shortened brass life.
If you are going to be putting this brass back into your rifle then you really only need to size it as much as necessary to not have an interference fit in your chamber, .001-.002 in a bolt and .003-.004 in a semi is all the shoulder set back from fired to sized that is necessary.

Perfect thank you. I was really only shooting for -.003-.005 set back. But i wasn’t getting hardly any. Thank you for clarifying the SAAMI statement. I am thinking the need to send it back is the correct answer at this point.

 

[padom]

I only included the virgin brass as a comparison in change from new to once fired. I do not have a hornady case comparator. I have a Whidden Case Gauge shown below. That number is included at the bottom of my measurements. As I understand it that is the same as the hornady numbers it just uses a different way of measurement. My headspace is the +.005-.006 number up from the new again only for comparison. I then need to bump that measurement back down .005 for an semi auto which as the measurements show the die does not change that measurement at all. No argument intended but I do believe the numbers I included do show what you are asking. It just shows it in a different way. And that is why I am confused.
View attachment 7220577

I actually dont believe you do but lets take this further. Your numbers across the bottom. -.002, +.002, etc. Whats the base number? +.002 and -.002 what??? Forget all those cases you keep posting. What is the measurement with your gauge of the 1x, deprimed, cleaned, unsized, never ran in a die piece of brass? Lets start there to try and help you.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

While I see what your saying, I take all of that info with a grain of salt. Without a case headspace measurement, then proper die setup based off that measurement, we cant be sure of anything.

Am I not using a headspace gauge? It just doesn’t measure the case length like the hornady. It instead just gives the increase in shoulder length in thousandths? I am confused because I believe I showed my once fired numbers and included the headspace measurement. It just isn’t the longer measurement provided with the hornady.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

The case guage is basically the same as putting a sammie spec case in the comparator and then hitting zero on your calipers.

 

[padom]

Perfect thank you. I was really only shooting for -.003-.005 set back. But i wasn’t getting hardly any. Thank you for clarifying the SAAMI statement. I am thinking the need to send it back is the correct answer at this point.

I have 2 Forster FL 224V and 1 Redding FL Bushing die here. They all size my brass no problem on a Co-Ax, 550 and XL650. While mistakes happen, I havent seen this big of a mistake from Forster on my dies and I have A LOT of Forster FL dies.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

I actually dont believe you do but lets take this further. Your numbers across the bottom. -.002, +.002, etc. Whats the base number? +.002 and -.002 what??? Forget all those cases you keep posting. What is the measurement with your gauge of the 1x, deprimed, cleaned, unsized, never ran in a die piece of brass? Lets start there to try and help you.

+.oo5 again measured with my whidden case guage.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

The guage reads with zero being SAAMI spec. + numbers equal increased size above SAAMI - would be below minimum SAAMI.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

So my headspace is .005 above SAAMI minimum. For my 1st fires cleaned deprimed brass.

 

[padom]

Got it. So your 1x, deprimed and cleaned brass is 0.005+ from 0.00 on the gauge. While I dont like this way to measure case headspace, I follow you.

So, what lube are you lubing your case up with??

And you have your die screwed down touching the shell holder right now?

 

[snbyiggidy1]

I have 2 Forster FL 224V and 1 Redding FL Bushing die here. They all size my brass no problem on a Co-Ax, 550 and XL650. While mistakes happen, I havent seen this big of a mistake from Forster on my dies and I have A LOT of Forster FL dies.

Trust me I am inclined to believe it is me. That’s why I am asking and trying to sort it out.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Got it. So your 1x, deprimed and cleaned brass is 0.005+ from 0.00 on the gauge. While I dont like this way to measure case headspace, I follow you.

So, what lube are you lubing your case up with??

And you have your die screwed down touching the shell holder right now?

Hornady Unique lube. Die is screwed down touching then 1/4 turn further for cam over.

 

[padom]

Hornady Unique lube. Die is screwed down touching then 1/4 turn further for cam over.

Ok, good. Did you continue to turn the die down anymore? What happens if you turn it another 1/4 or half turn? Measurement still doesnt change?

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Ok, good. Did you continue to turn the die down anymore? What happens if you turn it another 1/4 or half turn? Measurement still doesnt change?

I have not tried that. Wasn’t sure how much farther to go. As in how much can over is too much? But I can totally try when I get back home this afternoon.

 

[spife7980]

So what Im seeing is

Hornady:

• neck diameter was .248 new, fired was .254 and sized was .247- that all seems in line.

• Next measurement (what is this number, diameter of the neck base?) was .254 new, .265 fired and .246 sized- whatever it is,it is smaller after sizing than it was fired so it should not present a clearance issue.

• Shoulder diameter was .399 new, .405 fired and .400 sized- that all seems in line.

• Base diameter was .417 new, .418 fired and .418 sized- depending on the quality of your tools and their measuring precision this could be the issue.

The fired brass is the same base diameter as the sized brass, aka the die didnt size this area any. Now, you could not be sizing because the die is an improper fit for your brass and chamber.​

This video explains it as well​

​

​

But if they are lower pressure rounds then maybe the brass just hasnt expanded up to chamber size here so its a bit premature to know. Coloring the bass of the case with a sharpie will show whether a sized piece of brass has room in the chamber still or if it is getting wiped away when chambering due to being to large.​

​

• Finally we get to your whidden relative measurements- this should give the same relative reading as the hornady comparator but I like that I can see what the hornady is doing without being hidden down inside of something. But thats a different story that padom is addressing above. New is -.002 your whidden 0, fired is +.005 above and sized is still +.005 above. So that tells me that you are not getting your shoulder pushed back any when sizing. Ideally with the .003 of minimum shoulder set back for the semi autos we would be hoping that our sized brass would come out with a measurement of +.002 from the whidden gauge.

What happens if you screw the die down further into the press? Can you get the shoulder set back anymore to read the desired +.002? Dont worry about cam over or any of that, just screw the die down a bit further into the lock ring and give it a try, the coax has a shit load of leverage and can size more than one would think based on just screwing it down to touch plus 1/4 turn by hand.

 

[padom]

Ok, good. Did you continue to turn the die down anymore? What happens if you turn it another 1/4 or half turn? Measurement still doesnt change?

What happens if you screw the die down further into the press? Can you get the shoulder set back anymore to read the desired +.002? Dont worry about cam over or any of that, just screw the die down a bit further into the lock ring and give it a try, the coax has a shit load of leverage can size more than one would think based on just screwing it down to touch by hand.
[/QUOTE]


Exactly! I think he got right to touching the shell holder/jaws and stopped and is actually really close. Go down a few more turns in 1/4 turn increments and he will have it.

When setting up FL sizing dies, you turn and turn and turn and your case headspace measurement doesnt change, or increases actually because of stretch, BEFORE you get to where the die is actually pushing the shoulder back. Ive seen guys stop here too many times, thinking something is wrong with their die cause they are very close, or just kissed the shell holder. Then when you turn that die to the correct spot that last 1/4 turn, boom, its sized it down just right or too much or you might have to back it off a hair. But they arent big turns once youre there. Keep going and Im sure your die is fine..

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Ok so I tried screwing it down more. Started from my initial against shell plate plus 1/4 turn. Went at 1/4 turn at a time to 1/2 the 3/4. At 3/4 the cam over is ridiculous and I can’t imagine me having to put my weight on the press handle to engage it is ok. And that only got me to .004 from the original .005. So any more thoughts?

 

[spife7980]

Take the expanding ball stem out and try it just to make sure it isnt bottoming out on the case prematurely.
Do the fires cases chamber in the rifle easily? Maybe they just aren’t fully grown? I doubt that but still worth a shot to see. Cover one in black sharpie and chamber it.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Take the expanding ball stem out and try it just to make sure it isnt bottoming out on the case prematurely.
Do the fires cases chamber in the rifle easily? Maybe they just aren’t fully grown? I doubt that but still worth a shot to see. Cover one in black sharpie and chamber it.

Will try the color the case thing. The stem is out already.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Have you reloaded successfully with this press before?

Not that we could tell much by looking at it but I would be interested in a pic of the press with a case in it.

 

[Hondo64d]

I had a 6.5x47 Forster FL die that I had to have shortened before it would adequately size, so it’s not unheard of.

Though not related to your problem, I have also noticed that my Forster dies size the shoulder diameter significantly smaller than my Redding body dies.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Have you reloaded successfully with this press before?

Not that we could tell much by looking at it but I would be interested in a pic of the press with a case in it.

No I have not. This is the first. The press is new and so is the die. And for that matter so am I. I will snap a picture and post soon.

For shits and giggles go another 1/2 in 1/4 increments, for a total of 1 1/4 turns.

I had a to give my FL Forster die another turn or so past where it hit the Coax plate to get a proper neck pushback. This was also per a call with forster.

How much cam over did you have at that point? Mine at 3/4 past touching shell plate is so hard to cam over I am having to put my upper body weight on it to do so. That seems extreme to me and not a good plan. Seems like if it takes that much effort something is wrong. ??

I had a 6.5x47 Forster FL die that I had to have shortened before it would adequately size, so it’s not unheard of.

Though not related to your problem, I have also noticed that my Forster dies size the shoulder diameter significantly smaller than my Redding body dies.

Good to know. I will be calling Forster tomorrow.

 

[snbyiggidy1]

Here are a couple pictures.