Forster NM .308 die too tight

[KR1]

I just bought a new set of dies: Forster Ultra Die Set FL & Micrometer Seater 308 National Match.

I went to full resize some federal ball load brass today and the casing will only fit 1/2 way into the die....tried a few with the same outcome. I tried a new Lapau brass, and while it's tight, it did fit.

Anyone else had this issue? And if so what would you suggest as "remedy".

Note: The stick is a new AI AE MKlll....only the 1 box of federal ball through it.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

[buffybuster]

What kind of case lube are you using?

 

[turbo54]

Either your lubrication is inadequate, or the die is poorly polished.

First thing to do is thoroughly clean out the die and properly lubricate the cases.

If that doesn't fix the issue, send the die back to Forster.

A friend bought the Forster Ultra set for his 7mm-08 and had a very similar issue, which ended up being inadequate polishing of the die.

 

[KR1]

The die is in fact marked .308, lube is Lyman's Quick Slick.
The portion of the case that makes it into the case is left with definite abrasion marks....perhaps lack of polishing is the issue.
I'll try cleaning with brake cleaner, lubing and running one in again. If not I guess I'll try to return it to the retailer for exchange.

 

[KR1]

I'll get whatever lube those that know suggest.

I use Dillon spray lube. If Lyman is similar, you'll need to shake the bottle good before spraying and let the cases sit a few minutes before sizing. IMHO, it's probably a combination of new die and so-so lube. Do you have any other lube to try? How about some mink oil?

 

[ksthomas]

Try Imperial (Redding) sizing die wax for lube. If there's anything remotely close to a lube problem, this will cure it. If it's still fighting you with Imperial, I'd be inclined to look at it as a probably die problem. Might also wish to consider that Federal brass does tend to run on the soft side, and this may be an issue.

 

[427Cobra]

The abrasion marks your seeing maybe where the brass has sneered off, so clean your die with a strong copper remover bore solvent

 

[KR1]

 

[KR1]

Clean it this way even though it's a brand new die?

The abrasion marks your seeing maybe where the brass has sneered off, so clean your die with a strong copper remover bore solvent

 

[rjacobs]

I would call Forster before you start messing with the die.

The NM size doe is definitely tighter than the standard die, but still shouldnt be causing these issues.

 

[KR1]

I loaded some cases, shot them and attempted to run them through this die...same deal. It gets tight, tight, tight before 1/2 way in.

 

[opeagle]

I use that same set and other than lube issues I created have never had a problem like yours.

I also use Dillon spray lube. Like the others said, follow the directions and it should be fine. If not try another set of dies with the same brass.

 

[HAZORD]

Do you have a Wilson or other brand of case gage? If you do, insert your once fired brass and observe how far they go into the gage. With a fairly tight chamber, the fired ones will still go almost entirely into the gage. If your fired stuff is protruding 1/8th inch to 3/8 inch then your cases are getting blown out from a large chamber or other reasons. Always good to check what you are going to reload, with a gage. If it did protrude 3/8 from the gage, you would have a hard time getting it into a sizing die.

 

[Deadshot2]

I use the same die and recall that the first couple of cases were extremely tight. Be sure and clean the die well. Not just a "squirt of Brake-Kleen" or the like, give it a good scrub. A 50 cal bore brush works great for the body portion to make sure there's no carbon or copper particles stuck to the surface.

Give the inside of the die a good "lube job". If a spray like the Dillon, RCBS, Lyman, or Hornady sprays, make sure that it dries before you try to size a case. The carrier base of these lubes can actually make them sticky until it evaporates.

Also important. If you don't want scuffing and scratching, make sure the cases are CLEAN. If you don't want to polish first in corn-cob or ss pins, then at least give them a bath in some Simple Green or Dawn, rinsing carefully and drying before proceeding.

Some dies just aren't polished as well as we all would like. Simple cure is to get a "Bore Mop" for a larger caliber. The base of a .308 case is about .470" so anything in that range should work. Smear it with some Flitz, chuck the threaded end in a Drill, and polish to a mirror finish. You won't be changing the dimensions more than a few microns, just knocking off the sharp edges from the reaming and earlier polishing (with a larger grit size).

Imperial Wax or Hornady Unique are the better lubes for tough sizing jobs. Lee's pretty good too. The spray's rely too much on luck and don't always lube the full surface of the case.

 

[JB02]

You need to disassemble the die and clean it out with some brake cleaner or other similar solvent. Lube up your cases with Redding Imperial Sizing wax. If that doesn't work, send the die back to Forster.

Forster National Match dies are tight. If you're using Lapua brass shot out of a factory chamber then it will be a tight fit.

 

[KR1]

Chamber is an ai ae mklll. I cleaned it last night and lubed with quick slick (all I have on hand). I'm going to take it over to a friends reloading table today as it's built sturdier than mine.
If it won't go with better lube and a lot of direct pressure is it advisable to attempt multiple times in a jacking manner? ~threw the jokesters a bone there~

 

[KR1]

A lot of good information there, thanks a ton.

I use the same die and recall that the first couple of cases were extremely tight. Be sure and clean the die well. Not just a "squirt of Brake-Kleen" or the like, give it a good scrub. A 50 cal bore brush works great for the body portion to make sure there's no carbon or copper particles stuck to the surface.

Give the inside of the die a good "lube job". If a spray like the Dillon, RCBS, Lyman, or Hornady sprays, make sure that it dries before you try to size a case. The carrier base of these lubes can actually make them sticky until it evaporates.

Also important. If you don't want scuffing and scratching, make sure the cases are CLEAN. If you don't want to polish first in corn-cob or ss pins, then at least give them a bath in some Simple Green or Dawn, rinsing carefully and drying before proceeding.

Some dies just aren't polished as well as we all would like. Simple cure is to get a "Bore Mop" for a larger caliber. The base of a .308 case is about .470" so anything in that range should work. Smear it with some Flitz, chuck the threaded end in a Drill, and polish to a mirror finish. You won't be changing the dimensions more than a few microns, just knocking off the sharp edges from the reaming and earlier polishing (with a larger grit size).

Imperial Wax or Hornady Unique are the better lubes for tough sizing jobs. Lee's pretty good too. The spray's rely too much on luck and don't always lube the full surface of the case.

 

[KR1]

I don't have a case gauge. Would a caliper suffice?
Note, I have new lapua brass that wont fit either.

 

[Rattler56]

Can you FL with another die and then try the Forster ?
The pic you put up would lead me to check the Forster die to see if they polished it
inside.

 

[HAZORD]

The thing about a case gage is that it is cut to the SAMI specs for a complete case profile. You don't get the full picture if you are just using a caliper. The big problem with a caliper, is that the sidewalls of the case are tapered, not parallel. So you need to make measurements at a specific distance from the head. Normally a new unfired case will fall into a case gage all the way. You would need to measure the unfired case at different points along the taper and make the same measurements at the exact same distance from the head on the fired case to determine how much your case has expanded. There are accessories you can get to put on a caliper for measuring how much longer your case became, which you should also use to determine how to set your die in the press so you get about .003 inch or so bump on the shoulder back from the fired shoulder location.

It sounds like you need to scrub your die out first though, and make sure you have some imperial sizing die wax on it for lube. In his book, Zediker advises using the biggest press you have for resizing 308, and to size them twice, rotating the case 90 degrees between the first and second sizing. Federal brass is soft compared to the LC military brass, so it will expand more than the military brass.

 

[former naval person]

I'll bet your chamber is too large...out of spec. JMHO

 

[KR1]

Can you FL with another die and then try the Forster ?
The pic you put up would lead me to check the Forster die to see if they polished it
inside.

It does not appear to be polished. I plan to get an FL (non nat match) next trip to the reloading supply.

Hazord~ Yes, this makes perfect sense. "The thing about a case gage is that it is cut to the SAMI specs for a complete case profile. You don't get the full picture if you are just using a caliper. The big problem with a caliper, is that the sidewalls of the case are tapered, not parallel."

The shoulder on the form fired was knocked from 1.6205 on the unfired federal to 1.6240...change of 0.0035 measured using a Hornandy comparator.

A new lapua case is tough to get in it, and once fired federal impossible thus far.


Formal Naval Person~ Are AE MKlll's known to have loose chambers?

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Chamber is an ai ae mklll. I cleaned it last night and lubed with quick slick (all I have on hand). I'm going to take it over to a friends reloading table today as it's built sturdier than mine.
If it won't go with better lube and a lot of direct pressure is it advisable to attempt multiple times in a jacking manner? ~threw the jokesters a bone there~

That should never be necassary, call Forster!

 

[Mad_Charlie]

View attachment 24552
It does not appear to be polished. I plan to get an FL (non nat match) next trip to the reloading supply.

Hazord~ Yes, this makes perfect sense. "The thing about a case gage is that it is cut to the SAMI specs for a complete case profile. You don't get the full picture if you are just using a caliper. The big problem with a caliper, is that the sidewalls of the case are tapered, not parallel."

The shoulder on the form fired was knocked from 1.6205 on the unfired federal to 1.6240...change of 0.0035 measured using a Hornandy comparator.

A new lapua case is tough to get in it, and once fired federal impossible thus far.
View attachment 24550View attachment 24551

Formal Naval Person~ Are AE MKlll's known to have loose chambers?

I just got out my RCBS X-die, and a 25-30yr old Lyman die to compare to your photo's, both are a lot smoother with a generous radius at the die mouth. They don't give me any problems, and never did.
I notice that your Forster has a "sharp" chamfer at the die mouth and that is where I think most of your problem is coming from, not being able to take comparative measurements, there is no way to know if there is a size problem.

Call Forster, and send them the pic's.

 

[copterdrvr]

My current Forster dies (308 + 223 Ultra) are neck sizing only dies and the whole inside of the die is polished to an almost mirror finish.

I just picked up a set of Lee dies (very inexpensive) for a 6.5 Carcano and they are finished better than what your picture illustrates.

I'm going to guess that your dies missed a step in the finishing process and got shipped before they made it through the final polishing stage. All of the manufacturers are running at max speed to manufacture die sets-as an example, Dillon has at least an 8 week wait for rifle dies due unprecedented demand. I'll bet they'd take them back in a heartbeat to finish them up.

An appropriately sized bore mop (like a 28 or 20 ga. size) slathered up with Flitz and chucked in a strong drill would polish the CRAP out of the die and probably come out smoother than what would come from the factory anyway. Because I like to fiddle with stuff like this, I'd definitely take some of my time to try and rectify this rather than spend the money and lost mail time sending it back to Forster...

 

[Deadshot2]

My current Forster dies (308 + 223 Ultra) are neck sizing only dies and the whole inside of the die is polished to an almost mirror finish.

I just picked up a set of Lee dies (very inexpensive) for a 6.5 Carcano and they are finished better than what your picture illustrates.

I'm going to guess that your dies missed a step in the finishing process and got shipped before they made it through the final polishing stage. All of the manufactures are running at max speed to manufacture die sets-as an example, Dillon has at least an 8 week wait for rifle dies due unprecedented demand. I'll bet they'd take them back in a heartbeat to finish them up.

An appropriately sized bore mop (like a 28 or 20 ga. size) slathered up with Flitz and chucked in a strong drill would polish the CRAP out of the die and probably come out smoother than what would come from the factory anyway. Because I like to fiddle with stuff like this, I'd definitely take some of my time to try and rectify this rather than spend the money and lost mail time sending it back to Forster...

As much as I like to fiddle with stuff myself I think I would send this one back to Forster. The finish is way too rough and may even have some drastic dimensional errors. Looks like it was merely honed but missed out on the "fine stone" and "polish" steps. Frankly, I never saw a Lee die with as rough a finish as the picture showed.

Call Forster and they'll make it right. I placed a "complaint" with them recently over some bushings and not only did I get an e-mail response, but a personal phone call from someone who had direct oversight on the production of the bushings. Forster cares. Give them the problem and you'll be pleased with the results.

 

[KR1]

Thanks to all for the advise. A culmination of better lube, different press (far sturdier bench), and thoroughly scrubbed dies did the trick.

 

[HAZORD]

I don't know if you own reloading dies in any other caliber that you can look into to compare, but I've never seen a die that had machining marks in it like the one you have shown. It definitely missed a step or two, and polishing it on the inside is one of the steps. I'm thinking it didn't get the final internal profile cut and then the finishing polish.

 

[390fe]

I polished my Lee die by running a bit of 0000 steel wool through it - spun with a drill. My sized brass looks like my polished brass now.

 

[Deadshot2]

Thanks to all for the advise. A culmination of better lube, different press (far sturdier bench), and thoroughly scrubbed dies did the trick.

Glad to hear. You're not the only one among us to have run into that problem. I'd still invest some time with some Flitz metal polish and a large "Mop" chucked in a drill to polish out the die. I know that it now "works" but if you polish out some of those hone/machining marks it will work even better.

 

[peaceatwar]

I had to send a die back to Forster and it all happend in about a weeks time. Give them a call and they will take care of you. This is forster we are talking about here not some Chinese scope knock-off company.

 

[KR1]

Forster has yet to reply to my email sent days ago. I'm going with Deadshots advise of polishing it with a mop...now to find one that fits well.

 

[1J04]

From the Forster Catalog:


diamond stoning process that enlarges the inside diameter of the die and will prevent over-sizing of the case neck due to thick neck walls.
You may need this service:
If you use some brands of brass cases, such as Norma or Lapua, which have thicker neck walls.
If you do not intend to outside neck turn case necks that have thickened after repeated firings.
See page 46 for details.

And this is what they say regarding preparing cases for their Dies.

3.3 Prepare the Cases
1. Inspect all cases and dispose of those that are split or
separated.
2. Clean cases.
3. If the case neck walls vary in thickness, turn the outside
neck to a consistent thickness using a Forster Outside
Neck Turner (part numbers OT1010 or HOT100).
4. Chamfer sharp corners of trimmed cases with a Forster
Deburring Tool.
5. Lightly lubricate the case neck, shoulder and body with
Forster High Pressure Lube. Do not over lubricate, as this
may create pressure dents during sizing.
6. Apply a thin coat of dry lubricant to the inside of the case
necks by pushing the cases down over the brushes of a
Forster Case Graphiter.

Lubricate "Neck", "Shoulder", and Body. Neck and Shoulder, really. Is this Neck/Shoulder lubricating process specific just to Forster Dies? I gotta set on the way and I've never done the Lube Neck and Shoulder before. The National Match Dies are suppose to be pretty tight from what I've read. I'd definately still polish the crap outta that Die for sure. Does not appear to have the faintest Mirror Polish that it probably should, right.

 

[Deadshot2]

Forster has yet to reply to my email sent days ago. I'm going with Deadshots advise of polishing it with a mop...now to find one that fits well.

Look at either a 50 cal mop or a .410 gauge shotgun mop. You may have to wrap the .410 ga mop with a patch or two to get it tight enough.