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Friend asked to take him shooting the next day then goes out drinking without inviting me
- Thread starter ArmedGinger
- Start date
While I will concede that everyone has a preference for how information is conveyed, that is a preference. Saying "I don't" or "I can't" is a cop out. Reloading can be daunting- especially when your whole life the most dangerous thing you could imagine was a gun. No one wants their gun to explode in their face because of their incompetence. Then, you have a reloading manual that is several hundred pages in length.
"I have to read the whole thing?"
"No, it's for reference."
"Oh, ok. So where do I learn."
"In the book."
"You just said it was 'for reference.'"
"Oh for fuck's sake..."
I don't know anyone that learns less well with a mentor that without. But, most people suck at mentoring- this thread is witness to that. And, most people suck at being students. Beyond that, pretty much everyone sucks at honest introspection.
There is a lot going on in reloading. I was fortunate that when I was in grad school, a friend was into shooting and reloading. He took me through the basics and demystified the process. Seeing what he had told me what I needed, I then could experiment to see what I wanted to change/replace/add.
When I hear "I don't learn like that" I translate to "I don't know where to start and need some guidance to a good starting point..."
"I have to read the whole thing?"
"No, it's for reference."
"Oh, ok. So where do I learn."
"In the book."
"You just said it was 'for reference.'"
"Oh for fuck's sake..."
I don't know anyone that learns less well with a mentor that without. But, most people suck at mentoring- this thread is witness to that. And, most people suck at being students. Beyond that, pretty much everyone sucks at honest introspection.
There is a lot going on in reloading. I was fortunate that when I was in grad school, a friend was into shooting and reloading. He took me through the basics and demystified the process. Seeing what he had told me what I needed, I then could experiment to see what I wanted to change/replace/add.
When I hear "I don't learn like that" I translate to "I don't know where to start and need some guidance to a good starting point..."
I’ve taught hundreds of people psychomotor skills of all sorts and certified hundreds of divers from open water to advanced technical diving and rebreathers. I am patient and I’m good at conveying physical concepts verbally so the students can understand. I just don’t like the amount of work and the compensation from such endeavors even when self employed. Teaching is a groveler job. It shouldn’t be that way, but it is.
I also don’t do shit for people expecting anything in return. If you’re ungrateful for my exertions they will be infrequent, but I don’t treat strangers like friends and friends like family for mine own glory.
You got to figure, even in the gun community, there’s just not that many of us who shoot competitively and know what it takes to produce habitual impacts at range and from improvised positions under time constraint. There is probably more knowledge and skill on SH than anywhere else outside (a lot is here) of elite military circles.
I’m not criticizing, and I get that it’s vexing to suffer fools, but it’s important to get as many people shooting as possible.
I also don’t do shit for people expecting anything in return. If you’re ungrateful for my exertions they will be infrequent, but I don’t treat strangers like friends and friends like family for mine own glory.
You got to figure, even in the gun community, there’s just not that many of us who shoot competitively and know what it takes to produce habitual impacts at range and from improvised positions under time constraint. There is probably more knowledge and skill on SH than anywhere else outside (a lot is here) of elite military circles.
I’m not criticizing, and I get that it’s vexing to suffer fools, but it’s important to get as many people shooting as possible.
Well, I guess you think I just threw the book at this guy's feet and told him to read it and fuck off.
I guess you weren't there to see the several hours of hands on mentoring I gave him with my reloading equipment and the chapter by chapter review of the reloading manual showing him which chapters were key to know right away and which ones he could worry about later.
I guess I suck at mentoring. It couldn't be that he's a lazy fuck who thought his time was more valuable than mine.
OBTW, I did teach myself how to reload competently without any mentors. it was kinda easy after having to learn how to run nuclear reactors in the fucking Navy.
Nope, you missed my meaning- at least in part. People that ask favors "don't know what they don't know." "Students" mostly don't know how to learn and WAY undervalue mentorship. Everyone can learn from reading a book. Many/most are too lazy to do so. Having a mentor accelerated learning, but really good mentors are not common. Presenting information in a way that is easy to understand and demonstrating principles plainly such that they are easy to grasp are the easy parts of teaching. You may suck at being a mentor. The guy was probably a lousy student. By your own admission you have little patience. I'd bet there was enough blame to go around. But, ultimately, it is on the student to learn.
My post was mostly directed at lazy students, with a small aside toward less than stellar teachers. And, acknowledgement that poor students often don't know they suck, and neither do poor teachers.
Oh, congrats on the nuclear reactor thing. I'd link to my dissertation, but it's not germane to the conversation.
There's a big gap between writing a paper and stepping up to operate the real thing under stress.
That would be a fitting epitaph for me.
I'm lucky that my son likes to go shooting and takes the time out of his busy life nearly every time I invite him. When he invites me, I do what I can to make time. It's not uncommon for me to go alone and that's OK because it's therapy and solo therapy can be good for the soul.
Most people we know that own guns apparently don't like to shoot them enough to actually go shooting.
It took thorough analysis and design, but it was worth the effort. All of my few remaining friends are real friends.
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Luckily as my interest in long range shooting as grown, so has my old man's. I always have a shooting partner if I want one.
Those that want to find a way those that don’t find an excuse!
Indoor 25 yard range 15 mins from home
100 yard range 30 mins from home
600 yard range 1.5 hours from home
1000 yard range now 3 hours from home was 5.5 hours and made it an overnight trip
Same scenario as most of you friends say they want to, but very rarely ever make time to do it.
I have some of the best times by myself doesn’t bother me one bit.
Indoor 25 yard range 15 mins from home
100 yard range 30 mins from home
600 yard range 1.5 hours from home
1000 yard range now 3 hours from home was 5.5 hours and made it an overnight trip
Same scenario as most of you friends say they want to, but very rarely ever make time to do it.
I have some of the best times by myself doesn’t bother me one bit.
Wintertime especially, I’d be nice to have someone hunting with me in case I fall through the ice or something, but I’m only gonna ask so many times before I just go. I’m not gonna beg. I have more fun by myself anyways. Apparently it’s not the talking to yourself you have to worry about.. it’s whrn you start answering back..
A little over four decades ago, I asked a shooting mentor to "show me the ropes" of reloading. He gave me a manual and told to come back when I finished reading it. I read it at least three times before I saw him again. When I did he started asking questions, took me into his shop and began teaching me how to prep brass. It was probably a month or more before I touched a press.
If you're serious, you'll read the manual.
My wife says I'm not an average guy. When I'm interested in something, I read as much as possible about it before diving in. I read instructions...but never ask for directions.
My father reloaded for himself, as well as a number of his friends. I was always excluded from these activities, as it "not a thing for kids to be around" as well as "when you're older then you can learn about it"....
Had an uncle also who reloaded, but he lived so far away that the few times we did see him, there were always other things happening. I knew I needed to reload and got my first press (Lee Turret) and first manual (Lyman 46th, iirc) and just simply went into study mode. I very enthusiastically WANTED to know this stuff, because I (first and foremost) didn't want to explodicate myself. That, and the cost savings (initial thought) were a necessity for me.
It was interesting to learn the development of ballistics and the reloading process, and the reasons for it all. Made it ALL make sense to me. Did it bother me that my own father wouldn't take the time to even share this with me, let alone teach me any of it? Him being the prick that he is today, which is still the same as it was then,,, doesn't surprise me. I've learned decades ago, to not let it bother me, nor let him get me down. I've not seen him since '05.
The point of all this, though... is both personal interest AND individual perseverance. One truly has to WANT to know,,,, and in order to know, one truly has to want to learn. The thing is, is that person aware of the fact that there's something to know? (bit of a 'flip' on the age-old question, eh?)
I know what I don't know, and appreciate the opportunities to learn new/more/deeper things. I don't have the 'best' of equipment. But what I do have is that which I've been able to afford at the time which it was needed. I've had a number of people ask me to teach them to reload, as well as more who've simply said "can you reload ammo for me?" Those folks get answered with "bring your components over, and we'll do it together."
Funny, NONE of those folks have actually shown up yet. For the folks who have been here, and have partaken in the reloading process, and/or the gun maintenance and smithing thing,,, they've been somewhat surprised as to the depth of seriousness that My Lady and myself have attained. Except, they continue their lives with the 'new trucks' or the 'Saturday Nights with the boys' and stuff.
So I'll bring it up again, for the newbies.... are they really aware that there's something else to be known?
...Just a few points to add here:
My father is, and always has been, a 'paper plate hunter'. That being, if he can hit a paper plate at 100 yards, those are "kill shots" and he's good-to-go. I have practiced and competed in F-Class, and he always thought that was a waste of time, ammo, and rifles.
I had the opportunity back in the mid '80s to pick up a HK 91. He told me 'not to bother wasting my time or money with that piece of shit. The 308 is a garbage round that isn't good for anything.
(me being the young and trusting son at the time, listened intently and did as I was told. Ask me if I regret it now.... on so very many different levels.)
So what I'm suggesting to ya'll, is that there are definitely two kinds of people in this world, Tuco. Those whom have an interest in knowing, and those whom aren't interested in knowing that they don't know. I'm ALL FOR supporting those who want to know. I'll do all that I can to nurture and promote that.
Those who don't.... well, I don't bother wasting my time with them. My life is way too precious to purposely hinder myself or hold myself back. I make enough mistakes on my own, I don't have to look for importing them. Points to think about, regarding "broadening interest in our field".
Had an uncle also who reloaded, but he lived so far away that the few times we did see him, there were always other things happening. I knew I needed to reload and got my first press (Lee Turret) and first manual (Lyman 46th, iirc) and just simply went into study mode. I very enthusiastically WANTED to know this stuff, because I (first and foremost) didn't want to explodicate myself. That, and the cost savings (initial thought) were a necessity for me.
It was interesting to learn the development of ballistics and the reloading process, and the reasons for it all. Made it ALL make sense to me. Did it bother me that my own father wouldn't take the time to even share this with me, let alone teach me any of it? Him being the prick that he is today, which is still the same as it was then,,, doesn't surprise me. I've learned decades ago, to not let it bother me, nor let him get me down. I've not seen him since '05.
The point of all this, though... is both personal interest AND individual perseverance. One truly has to WANT to know,,,, and in order to know, one truly has to want to learn. The thing is, is that person aware of the fact that there's something to know? (bit of a 'flip' on the age-old question, eh?)
I know what I don't know, and appreciate the opportunities to learn new/more/deeper things. I don't have the 'best' of equipment. But what I do have is that which I've been able to afford at the time which it was needed. I've had a number of people ask me to teach them to reload, as well as more who've simply said "can you reload ammo for me?" Those folks get answered with "bring your components over, and we'll do it together."
Funny, NONE of those folks have actually shown up yet. For the folks who have been here, and have partaken in the reloading process, and/or the gun maintenance and smithing thing,,, they've been somewhat surprised as to the depth of seriousness that My Lady and myself have attained. Except, they continue their lives with the 'new trucks' or the 'Saturday Nights with the boys' and stuff.
So I'll bring it up again, for the newbies.... are they really aware that there's something else to be known?
...Just a few points to add here:
My father is, and always has been, a 'paper plate hunter'. That being, if he can hit a paper plate at 100 yards, those are "kill shots" and he's good-to-go. I have practiced and competed in F-Class, and he always thought that was a waste of time, ammo, and rifles.
I had the opportunity back in the mid '80s to pick up a HK 91. He told me 'not to bother wasting my time or money with that piece of shit. The 308 is a garbage round that isn't good for anything.
(me being the young and trusting son at the time, listened intently and did as I was told. Ask me if I regret it now.... on so very many different levels.)
So what I'm suggesting to ya'll, is that there are definitely two kinds of people in this world, Tuco. Those whom have an interest in knowing, and those whom aren't interested in knowing that they don't know. I'm ALL FOR supporting those who want to know. I'll do all that I can to nurture and promote that.
Those who don't.... well, I don't bother wasting my time with them. My life is way too precious to purposely hinder myself or hold myself back. I make enough mistakes on my own, I don't have to look for importing them. Points to think about, regarding "broadening interest in our field".
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That sucks. My kid is my hand loading wingman, as I was my father’s. I let him do one operation at a time UI.
Given the fact that almost any newbie with solid equipment, quality components, and a general understanding of load data can produce math grade ammo from the get go, I actually do not blame them for going this route, if a problem arises, answers are at their fingertips within minutes. If crap is in spec<dies, chamber etc.., it'd be rare that problems are encountered till after the 2nd firing of brass.
A number of reasons... It went up so dramatically in value that it drove me nuts. I didn't shoot it in the competition stuff I did, and like I said, when people wanted to shoot it, they almost always wanted to bum my ammo. I realized that I didn't want to supply all those people with ammo, and I rarely shot it.
After I got married, my new wife was really cool about living with my old "early American bachelor" furniture, and never once said she wanted anything better. I knew it was shit furniture, and after a couple of years realizing that my new wife never got a case of the "I want", or "gimme", or "sell your stuff so I can buy.." I knew how fortunate I was. That, realizing that I didn't shoot the rifle much, I was kind of tired of it, I wanted other stuff, and with the money from the M-16 I could buy a couple more rifles, and new furniture to reward a wife who never asked for anything, the M-16 got sold. I did great on the increase in value, and everyone got neat stuff from the sale. Then we moved to a state (generally) that doesn't allow class 3 weapons in any case.
I have no regrets from getting rid of it. I still have the other rifles I got with the money, and I DO use them.
A very long time ago, I bought a Viet-nam bring back Chi-Com AK-47 with a milled receiver, and Chinese characters on the receiver. Back then, ammo for it cost about $1.00 per round (the equal to about $3 per round now). I figured that a $20 bill would last longer if I lit it on fire rather than buying ammo for the AK-47 and running the ammo through it. So I sold it...and did quite well with it. I shudder to think what it would be worth now days... My guess is that a papered Chi-com AK47 like that would be worth $30K now....I sure didn't get $30K for it, but I didn't loose money on selling it.
That has to be the most expensive 7.62x39 ammo ever made. I dont think you could gold plate it and make it worth $3 a round.
It was rare and expensive, then it became cheap as dirt (1000rnd spam can for $99), and now X39 is like all the other ammo...
Thank god I never saw that (x39 being expensive). Cheapest I paid was 79 for 1000 in 1999.
I do remember M14 mags being $120 in 2002ish.
I do remember M14 mags being $120 in 2002ish.
The ammo was only $1 per round, but that was around 1980 so I was just guessing that with inflation, it would have been equal to around $3 per round in today's money. In any case, my point was that lighting a $20 bill on fire would have had the $20 lasting longer than $20 worth of ammo in the magazine of the AK-47 back then.
I get it now, I never knew 762x39 was worth its weight in gold at one time. I would guess you are at least 18 years my senior.
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