frustrated, gunsmithing, reloading, OAL hunt in one week. Bolt gun.

[Prebanpaul]

Ok so here is my problem I selected a Weatherby ultralight in 300 win mag as my over all hunting rifle. I have several custom rifles that I reload for and shoot with great accuracy. .224-.38 inch groups on a regular basis. So I know how to reload and how to shoot. (at 100 yards) I have shot out to 1300

So here is my dilemma, I wanted to shoot 210 amax out of the gun and could not get the over all length down far enough to fit in the mag well, with out bulging the case out at the bottom because of a compressed round. I am shooting 78 grains h1000.

I switched to a 180 grain accu-bond and was able to get the round down to a 3.36 with out bulging the case and it barely fits in the box magazine.


My problem with this load is, the 5 inch, yes I said 5 inch group, in which it is shooting at 100 yards is reprehensible. So I sat down and used a Hornady Over all Length gauge and found that if pushed to the lands I was at a 3.62 (there for I would come back to 3.60) This is a huge difference in length.




So I got looking at the box magazine and found that there is a piece of metal that is detented in to place. It almost looks like they used a magnum box and used this piece to shorten it up to a long action. You can see this in the picture below. Has anyone every removed this piece. It would be the only way for me to load it to the length so that it would fit into the magazine. Any reason why this would not work.





The top picture is much more clear. I could not get the bottom one to come out.

Thank you for any help you can give me I am frustrated. To answer the one question most will ask. I am not using one of my more accurate guns because they are heavy as hell. I want to use a light weight gun.

 

[stockdoc]

Just remove that metal piece on the rear of your mag box. I have done the same thing to a couple of win 70 rifles and have had no problems. Just make sure that the bolt will retract enough to pick up a round. If it doesnt you will have to shorten the bolt stop the proper amount as well. Good luck

 

[sib1948]

Just remove that metal piece on the rear of your mag box. I have done the same thing to a couple of win 70 rifles and have had no problems. Just make sure that the bolt will retract enough to pick up a round. If it doesnt you will have to shorten the bolt stop the proper amount as well. Good luck

Haven't dealt with such an issue before, but this sure sounds like it resolves your issues.

 

[Hink]

I've seen a Remington 700 223 that had a similar block at the rear of the magwell. Comparing that box to a standard short action it looked like the block was the only difference.

As long as your bolt travels back far enough to clear that spacer, you shouldn't have any problems.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

never seen a 210 amax. maybe thats your problem! lol

i have also never seen a compressed load compressed enough to bulge a brass case. those two things alone have me questioning your reloading skills. even if you could get a compressed load to mag length that is that compressed you more then likely are going to start blowing shit up, rupturing cases, not be able to open the bolt or probably even close the bolt. pressure would more then likely be through the roof. if you want to shoot the 208 amax, which i assume is what you're talking about, reduce the charge and load it to mag length. that is if the ogive is still out of the case neck at mag length.

 

[Big Dog Steel]

I agree w/ KS...
Part of your original post is not making any sense to me...how long can you load with the accubond in your current magazine set up, and how long would the jump be?? For an internal box magazine it looks really short to me. Why not just single feed the thing with the accurate load?

 

[Hawk45]

Just remove that metal piece on the rear of your mag box. I have done the same thing to a couple of win 70 rifles and have had no problems. Just make sure that the bolt will retract enough to pick up a round. If it doesnt you will have to shorten the bolt stop the proper amount as well. Good luck

This is something commonly done on Tikka rifles as they are all long actions. I'd assume this would work on your rifle as well, but others with Weatherbys may chime in.

 

[djarecke]

My question would also be: "Does seating the bullet out that far really affect accuracy that much?" On my factory Remington, it shot 1/2" whether the bullet was .010" off the lands or .075". If the gun is shooting 5 MOA, I don't know that just seating it out that far will help the accuracy that much. One thing's for sure - I'd single feed some rounds first before chopping up my mag.

 

[shaggyaggie01]

"So I know how to reload"

yes, but do you know anything about developing a load?
picking a charge weight before everything else is a recipe for a kaboom. please step away from the reloading bench for your own safety.

 

[hollowoutadime]

My question would also be: "Does seating the bullet out that far really affect accuracy that much?" On my factory Remington, it shot 1/2" whether the bullet was .010" off the lands or .075". If the gun is shooting 5 MOA, I don't know that just seating it out that far will help the accuracy that much. One thing's for sure - I'd single feed some rounds first before chopping up my mag.

Hodgdon states that 78.0g H1000 is the max load on 208A-Max, 3.42 COAL. So you're at the limit on pressure. As suggested, I'd hand feed a few rounds, then try a different bullet. Here's a link to the Nosler page:
300 Winchester Magnum ? Nosler. I'd try their recommended loads, I know time is short but that should shoot 1.5 MOA or better.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

the more i think about this post the more i think you're gonna hurt yourself or blow your bang stick up. you said bulge at the bottom of the case from load compression....are you talking about the belted mag rim by chance? i seriously want to see a picture of this bulged case from compression if you dont mind.

 

[billyburl2]

Wow, just wow. Tag for later giggles.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Things to try

I'd start like this:

1. You say you have measured the lands at 3.62" - fine, assuming that is with the Noslers? If not, then try it again with the AMAX, it will be different. Also, quit using OAL, that measurement means nothing, use ogive distance, that is more accurate where lands are concerned.

2. Set your bullet depth, such that you are barely touching the lands, like .003 off the lands. The bullets should only have a FAINT mark on it from the lands, when colored over with a sharpie.

3. Load three each, with your powder, each a grain apart. If you have a compressed load, it's probably NOT a good hunting load, here is why. The powder compressed, will over time, and with repeated shots, eventually push the bullets forward, don't care how much crimp, neck tension or whatever you use. Now, you are jamming in the lands, higher pressures, definitely different impacts, not good. Oh, and you might pop a primer or other Bad Thing.

4. One of these loads will exhibit some promise, shoot more 3 shot groups around that, varying ONLY the powder charge, by only a .2 grain amount. If 74 grains works, try 73.6, 73.8, 74.2 and 74.4. Pick the one that works best, discard any showing pressure signs.

5. Don't develop hunting loads as max pressure loads. Not worth the possible issues, pick reliable accurate loads.

6. If you wish, play with seating depth, after you have a good charge weight. What you end up with should be a solid load, with a lot of temperature tolerance. And yes, a change of .003" makes a difference, it is why you end up pushing bullets out to chase eroding lands. If you can't measure and reproduce loads within .001" depth, then work on that, it is important, more so than most guys think.

7. Only after all that, fix your mag to shoot the load you have developed.

8. One after thought, try a box of Federal Premium 300 WM, check length on those. That Nosler looks entirely too short for even factory ammo, Wondering if your chamber is not right, it's not usual for Weatherby's to be short chambered. Most of the time they are long in the throat. While you are at it, shoot a couple groups, see how their stuff works.

9. On the bulged case, sure like to see a picture of that too, before or after fired. If it is bulged after resizing, get a collet die to squeeze the area just above the belt. Bulges for any reason are not acceptable ammo. Bulges from compressed loads are things one should never fire in a rifle, asking for problems.

 

[airmonkey13]

I did this with a 7mag in which the barrel twist could not handle the long ogive of the 168 barnes ttsx. It had a large jump to the lands with the factory mag box. It hit the paper sideways around 4" groupings at 100 yds. Had to go back to factory loads for the hunt. Are you sure that box mag was for a long action? It seems a little short for factory loads.


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[Prebanpaul]

Ok first. Thank you to the people that where a help. Second if you you have never loaded this exact set up don't tell me about a compressed load. With h1000 this compressed load is only the middle of the road. To the ignorant person that said to save your self and step away from the bench....... I will after I get done with reloading over my 50,000 round with 20 different Calibers with out blowing my self up. If you have not duplicated this exact round load work up you would be consider ignorant by the definition to what the hell your talking about.

To the rest of you that where helpful. Thank you so much. I will let you know how the project works out

 

[Prebanpaul]

The bulged case is before being shot. The round would not chamber. It bulged at the bottom. And you had to mic it to see the difference. I do not load hot round so I do not have to worry about blowing anything up

 

[shaggyaggie01]

Lol, so your first indicator that you may have an overly compressed load is a bulging case, from the powder. Ok, I admit I'm a newbie, completely ignorant to all things reloading.

 

[Prebanpaul]

This load work up comes from nosler and shows several compressed loads. 101-102-103. And yes when loading this in a rcbs gold medal match the accubonds when load the factory specs would bulge on the case 2 one thousand, I could not see this but when mic'ed it was there. It was at the bottom right above the belt

 

[SWRichmond]

I had a similar experience with a factory 300WM. Factory max loaded round is 3.340" COL. Lands were at 3.640" with Berger 210 Hunting VLDs (an aftermarket "factory" load, loaded to 3.340"). Groups were 2.5" plus. Well, after jumping 0.300", who could blame them? It seems the lawyers throated the rifle ridiculously long, no doubt to keep pressures lower. Magazine length kept me from effectively loading for the magazine on this rifle.

I can't say if the mag spacer removal thing will work, but I feel your pain and I can tell you that my experience was that getting closer to the lands solved my accuracy problem. How many thousands of an inch of loaded round length will you gain by removing the spacer?

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Paul....bulging a case enough that it won't chamber from compressing a load just doesn't compute. Sorry but it doesn't make any sense. The amount of compression it would take to cause that, if it's possible, would indeed put you in a more the likely serious pressure or maybe as you say...hot charge. You're bulge, if it exists, sounds like a sizing die issue and you may need a collet sizer for your cases.

As to the mag length thing, work up a load that works mag length for your trip and then have the stock Inletted for bottom metal and run mags. You'll probably be able to get up to the lands or close with that.

 

[Prebanpaul]

I have listen to all of the great feed back and conclude some things.

One the box magazine if modified would have given me about 3/8 of an inch longer load length on the round. More than enough to set the bullet out longer. However one very very smart person pointed out to check the bolt throw. I pulled the bolt back to the see if I removed metal clip in the box if it would come back far enough to pick up the round. It does not. So I am heading to the range now with ammo loaded to a proper length to see it I get better accuracy. After my hunt next week this thing is going on gunbroker most likey and I will just have a custom gun built.

I thought about the bottom metal. I cant find anyone that makes it for a weatherby, and I think it has a lot to do with the bolt not coming back very far. I knew I should have stuck with a Remington.

I will let you guys know in about 3 hours how it shot.

 

[billyburl2]

My problem with the bulge is how much neck tension are do you have? And the fact that you never mentioned working up a load, just the fact that you can't get the compressed load to shoot.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

You couldn't have enough neck tension to bulge a case at the web area.

 

[JoshcBoucher]

One of the reasons I'm working up loads with IMR 7828SSC

 

[BlackCloudGunworks]

I agree with the bulged case body being hard to believe. The case is much thinner at the shoulder and would deform there first. Also, the more compressed your load is the more it crushes the powder inside the case. To crush the powder to the point that it bulges the case body is unlikely. There has to be something else going on to bulge a case body to the point of not chambering. Do you have pictures??


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[Long Range 338]

Sounds like its not going to be an issue any longer (if you just use a different rifle) but assuming you could remove the spacer from the magazine that would leave you with a follower that is 3/8 short as well, correct? I'm no smith but that could cause feed issues as well. I am interested in your thread because I have a Win 70 that is long throated and short in the mag that gives me a similar headache. The only thing I got to work was to use a sierra 165 hp gameking that worked because of bullet shape. It wasn't the bullet I wanted to use but it shot well. Maybe it would be an acceptable trade off for you.

 

[BlackCloudGunworks]

It would make sense to me that there would be some thinning around the top of the belt as it gets resized but the belt is still there and it's the thickest part of the case. The powder is the softest and most malleable material in the setup. It crushes into a finer powder as a load is compressed. With h1000 there is a lot of space in a full case that could be occupied by crushing powder. It just sounds hard to believe. I'd like to see pics.

 

[Willys46]

. I pulled the bolt back to the see if I removed metal clip in the box if it would come back far enough to pick up the round. It does not .

On the weatherby the bolt throw can be changed very easily. The slot in the bottom that the bolt stop rides in can be milled out toward the lugs to accommodate a longer bolt throw. I had it done to mine.

Weatherby uses the same bolt for most of the rounds so a quick mill job to extend it you are done.

Weatherby can send you new box mag and follower to make the mag box bigger.

 

[Prebanpaul]

So I will be posting pics of the 300 win mag later, with the buldged cases.

However I had to solve the gun hunting in 3 days for bear hunt problem. So I have a newly acquired AI Mark III in 308. I had some left over 180 accubonds. I thought to my self why the hell not give it a try. So first load work up and this is what I got. Federal gold medal match once fired brass, H4895 43.0 grains, and a large rifle primer federal 210. and the 180 accubond.
.476
- .308
= .168 inch five shot group. I was smiling all the way home.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Nice group. I'm guessing that Weatherby will be a safe queen. Have a good hunt!

 

[shaggyaggie01]

Let me sum this up, so I understand it.
You start with a compressed load in a new, unfamiliar gun, and don't like the accuracy, so rather than reducing the load, you get another new gun, and without working up to it, you try another compressed load, over published data, and it shoots sub 1/4 moa.
Either you are making things up, leaving information out, or you are just the luckiest sob alive.

 

[Prebanpaul]

No shaggie, I did not start off with a new gun that I was unfamiliar with. I started off with 210 amax and the would not come close to fitting in the magazine box. I got it to shoot the 210 amax, but it was pointless to have a 4 shot bolt gun that was a single shot. I then went too the accubond and in order to get it to fit into the box I had to compress the round. You might have missed the point where I have had several loads, load for the particular gun.

Now to the point of the .308............ It is load longer than OACL which would not make it a compressed round. It is over max from Nosler in which your correct. I consulted with several people and came up with this load. It obviously worked really well. Ohhhhhhh and it shows zero over pressure. Bolt opens fine, primer is fine, no bolt marks rim.

I love how you like to try and point out something negative. You reload right. Wonder if you ever went over COAL. You know that may cause over pressure in your rounds, I hope that you never have done anything out side of the book........ ohhhhhhhhh you know its a very bad thing.

Not lucky, read my signature.

To the gent that state the Weatherby went back into the safe. Nope it went to gun broker.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

There is no such fucking thing as a 210 Amax Paul

 

[shaggyaggie01]

You prove my point. Of course I have gone past the recommended charge, amd obviously experiment with COAL, all the way into the lands.. But you have to start under the max if you don't want to blow anything up. Every gun is different, brass runs different volumes, so many variables beyond control, so taking a load over the max as your starting point is flirting with disaster.

so the answer, apparently, is you are just lucky, despite your clever quotation.

 

[shaggyaggie01]

For all I know, maybe you did work up to these loads.
From your posts, anyone reading this would assume that you did not, and I feel it necessary to point out to anyone reading this that it is not a safe practice to use someone else's loads in your rifle.

fwiw, nice shooting.

 

[shaggyaggie01]

There is no such fucking thing as a 210 Amax Paul

Oh and this. Lol

 

[Prebanpaul]

Shaggy, what do you know about micro biology. I know enough to be classified as "stupid". So let me dumb it down for you. All powder is dead things. Its amazing powders how over time change, why because you can not reproduce the exact same detrition in plants. Hence look at reloading books from the 1940-1980 some of the powder that are used back then are the same as today but what was safe back then is no longer safe today. You base what you start your loads off of by doing what," research", on the internet from some company that does not want to get sued puts out there for you. I do the same thing. Some times I take a little more time and talk to some people and research and research somethings until I find exactly what I am looking for.

Again your playing with disaster when your pushing your AOL more than I am with the powder. 2 grains of powder will never and I mean never cause the pressure to spike more than your bullet, being pushed onto the lands. Unless your loading some pistol powder that is only 2 grains of powder and your doubling it.

Also I my load I am not using a magnum primer.

Again my research allowed me to shoot a 1/5 inch group at 100 yards with no signs of pressure.

If you in the Akron area I shoot every Wednsday like clock work, come on out. We can do some shooting. I also shoot on Monday mornings, and Thursday nights.


210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax210 amax 210 amax


KillSwitch
You just got mined fucked. It was a mistake. We all know they are 208 amax.
210 amax 210 amax 210 amax 210 amax

 

[shaggyaggie01]

Won't make it to Ohio anytime soon. Actually, I do have a degree in Chemical Engineering so I know a bit about the makeup of powder, but that's irrelevant to the discussion.
More power to you if you are ok with developing loads backwards, I still stick to my belief that all loads need to be worked up to. You'll be hard pressed to find a reloader here that doesn't recommend the same. Be safe, and have a nice day.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Paul....thanks but I didn't get "mined" fucked. Details and accuracy matter especially when your posting with issues and problems you're asking for help sorting out. Get your shit straight. For all I know you could be asking about a 210 Berger. Very different animal.

 

[Prebanpaul]

Kill switch I was just messing with you. I shoot a 210 smk in another gun and some times get them mixed up. Problem solved thanks for the help. Gun went to gun broker.