GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

[weber61]

I am looking into making my first custom .308 order. I am torn between the two GAP rifles: Gap Crusader and GAP hospitaller.

I know many of the members have one or both of these rifles. I would like to hear your opinions, list of strengths and differences in performance of each rifle.

FYI... My intended use is 85% target shooting, 0 - 1000yds, and 15% hunting, 0 -800yds.

 

[hyena74]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

my vote is the crusader. i just got one a week or two ago, and i can find no fault with the barreled action...its perfect and smooth as silk.

i think the raceways are a little tighter on the crusader and the accuracy guarantee is a little better than the hospitaller to boot.

the only thing i would do if i had it to do over is upgrade the stock to something with an adjustable cheek piece.

and also go with a timney trigger. the tuned xmark breaks nice, but i just dont like the feel of the smooth and thin shoe.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

I have both in .308. They're both very, very, good. I would give a [very] slight edge to the Defiance Templar action in the Crusader vs. the Surgeon 591. Same for the Crusader's McMillan A5 stock vs. the Manners T4. These observations are primarily just my personal preference for the "feel" of the Crusader.

IMO, the main difference between the two for your intended purpose would hinge on how often you plan on shooting out to 1000 yd. The 24" barrel of the Hospitaller is giving me 50 to 75 fps greater velocity than the Crusader with several different flavors of ammunition. That extra MV will buy you a little better wind resistance if you plan on shooting in competitions out to 1000 yd. I have been using the Hospitaller primarily in LR F-T/R comps at 1000 yd, and the Crusader in Midrange matches at 600 yd, and I have done very well with both. If I could only have one of the two, I guess I'd probably have to go with the Crusader, but only by the smallest of margins. Again, mostly just a "feel" issue.

Bottom line, you won't go wrong with either one. Once you get behind one and see how incredibly stable they feel and how well they shoot, it's really just ridiculous. Only problem is, after that you won't want to shoot anything else, and you'll have to have more GAPs. Ask me how I know (LOL).

Edit: I should mention that I recently received a custom GAP order, which is really identical to a Crusader, except with a longer barrel. I had the Jewell trigger installed on this one, and IMO, it's worth the coin.

 

[Just Jim]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

Count me in as another Crusader driver. It's just superb in every way, but it is heavier than I would care to hunt with.

As Greg said, these Gap rifles will pretty much ruin you for future satisfaction with any factory product.

Cheers... Jim

 

[ropegun]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

I had the pleasure of shooting another student's Hospitaller next to my Crusader in a recent Rifles Only course. I must first state that you will almost certainly do well with either model.

To compare the details:
- Both rifles were chambered in .308
- My Crusader has the standard 22" or 23" barrel, the Hospitaller was 25-ish inches long. As a result, the Hospitaller had a slightly higher muzzle velocity and required less elevation to 1000 yards.
- Crusader has the stock Remy trigger. Hospitaller had a Jewell trigger.
- Crusader w/Harris bipod. Hospitaller w/Atlas.
- Crusader w/Nightforce scope, Hospitaller w/Schmidt.
- Crusader w/Templar action, Hospitaller w/Surgeon.

Both guns shot lights out accurate under the hands of a few students and one instructor (an ex-Army Ranger Sniper team leader). During reasonably calm and/or consistent breeze conditions we were able to obtain sub-MOA groups on steel out to 1000 yards with FGMM 175, FGMM 168, and Corbon 155 Scenar. By the way, we were shooting in density altitudes of 6000 to 7000 feet. This is why the FGMM 168 was uber accurate in my gun at 1000 yards.

The two main differences between the guns were trigger and action. IMO the Jewell trigger feels more crisp than the Remy. The trigger itself is a little narrower, and I like its feel. I also think it's a little easier to make precise shots with the Jewell, however when we did our parts with the breaking the shot (per Jacob's instruction in a RO course), it did not matter which rifle we were behind. FWIW, the GA Precision people do not recommend a Jewell trigger in potentially dirty conditions. I will let more experienced shooters comment here.

IMO both the Templar and Surgeon actions are top notch. IMO the Surgeon feels a bit less "sloppy" when cycling a round. Both actions lock round tightly into the chamber. Our ex-Ranger instructor easily shot both our rifles well under 1/4 MOA groups at 100 yards. We students were dog doo by comparison, as we generally were in the 3/8 to 1/2 MOA range when our heads weren't firmly planted up our backsides. Which means some of our groups were <<ahem>> not so stellar.

Again, you won't go wrong with either model. I just took delivery of my second Crusader, this time in 6.5 Creedmoor. I was struggling with the same choice as you, however a Crusader came up on the GAP website for sale and I pounced.

 

[SS-8541-dono]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

i vote hospitaller , it cost more but you are getting a better product and i know everyone is going to bitch and moan that better is my own opinion and not fact but the hospitaller is a larger up front investment but well worth it to upgrade over the crusader and if you ever have to sell it you will more coin for the hospitaller no question. as for shooting and accuracy there is nothing the crusader can do that the hospitaller couldnt do better

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i vote hospitaller , it cost more but you are getting a better product and i know everyone is going to bitch and moan that better is my own opinion and not fact but the hospitaller is a larger up front investment but well worth it to upgrade over the crusader and if you ever have to sell it you will more coin for the hospitaller no question. <span style="color: #FF0000">as for shooting and accuracy there is nothing the crusader can do that the hospitaller couldnt do better</span> </div></div>

I have both, I've put thousands of rounds through them, and my impression is a little different. They are both so good and so close, it's anyone's call. As you noted, the Hospitaller is more expensive up front. I doubt however, that its resale value is going to be that much higher relative to the initial investment that the Crusader. Regardless of the price, neither is markedly superior to the other, and ultimately, a preference one way or the other will likely come down to what the individual shooter likes, not any measurable difference in quality of the rifles. You simply can't go wrong with either one.

 

[Roddd]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

I love my Crusader, haven't shot the Hospitaller. If I had to do it over, I'd go with a slightly longer barrel on the Crusader and an adjustable cheek piece. A muzzle break would help with spotting impacts and follow up shots (if that's a concern). I think either way, you'll be very happy.

 

[hyena74]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

a couple other things to consider...the crusaders bolt handle is swept back and more comfortable to me, whereas the hospitaller is more strait.

the crusader as a m-16 style extractor, which i like better than the hospitaller's remington style extractor.

the crusader is stainless and the hopsitaller is chromoly...so i would venture to say the crusader is more weather resistant.

as far as which is stronger and more wear resistant, i cant find out for sure. i would guess the chromoly is harder in the surgeon action. surgeon says its 38-40rc.

i cant find the rc rating on defiances web site, but did find stiller action that is 416r (same as the defiance) and it said it was 41rc...so guess its a wash.

 

[weber61]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

i really appreciate everyone's thougths so far. thanks for taking th time to give your input.

I have shot the crusader before and love it. i have also shot a Surgeon action before, although in a different caliber. While I did prefer the smoothness of the Surgeon, the Rem style extractor is not what I am looking for(Just not a fan). Add into that the Crmo vs stainless material diferences and I think i am leaning toward the crusader with 24" barrel and adjustalbe cheek A5.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

If you look in the GAP videos thread, I detail them pretty well and that could help you make your decision.

 

[SS-8541-dono]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

i cant believe evryones on this m16 extractor bandwagon? i have tens of thousands of rounds throught remington 700's both when i was in the military and since as well as through my surgeon action and in all these years and well over 100,000 rounds i have never had 1 single failure to extract or eject becuase of the remington extractor, hell i have even beaten my bolt back before with a hammer and the remington extractor pulled the case. so why the m16 extractor?

 

[SS-8541-dono]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i vote hospitaller , it cost more but you are getting a better product and i know everyone is going to bitch and moan that better is my own opinion and not fact but the hospitaller is a larger up front investment but well worth it to upgrade over the crusader and if you ever have to sell it you will more coin for the hospitaller no question. <span style="color: #FF0000">as for shooting and accuracy there is nothing the crusader can do that the hospitaller couldnt do better</span> </div></div>

I have both, I've put thousands of rounds through them, and my impression is a little different. They are both so good and so close, it's anyone's call. As you noted, the Hospitaller is more expensive up front. I doubt however, that its resale value is going to be that much higher relative to the initial investment that the Crusader. Regardless of the price, neither is markedly superior to the other, and ultimately, a preference one way or the other will likely come down to what the individual shooter likes, not any measurable difference in quality of the rifles. You simply can't go wrong with either one. </div></div>

if george called you up and told you he would build you one for free which one would you tell him you wanted?

 

[weber61]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyler Kemp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you look in the GAP videos thread, I detail them pretty well and that could help you make your decision.</div></div>
i have seen the videos. to be honest it your video that made me consider the hospitaller at all. you are doing a great job showing the GAP products. now i just need to shoot nearly as well as you

 

[weber61]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i cant believe evryones on this m16 extractor bandwagon? i have tens of thousands of rounds throught remington 700's both when i was in the military and since as well as through my surgeon action and in all these years and well over 100,000 rounds i have never had 1 single failure to extract or eject becuase of the remington extractor, hell i have even beaten my bolt back before with a hammer and the remington extractor pulled the case. so why the m16 extractor?</div></div>
I can only speak for myself.It is just preference. I have thousands of rounds on the remington extracters without issue. But for the cash spent on a custom gun, I want to try something new, stronger.

 

[MacM11]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

I vote Hospitaller. Why?---cause I have one on order.

 

[terrygood]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

Gap will make what ever you want. Dont get hung up on the barrel length trigger or stock. Gap is custom, so get exactly what you want. The stock, color, action, trigger.

I have them all and shoot them all. I prefer the Surgeon action, Jewel trigger, badger M4 BM, McMillan a-5 adj, 22 barrel.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i vote hospitaller , it cost more but you are getting a better product and i know everyone is going to bitch and moan that better is my own opinion and not fact but the hospitaller is a larger up front investment but well worth it to upgrade over the crusader and if you ever have to sell it you will more coin for the hospitaller no question. <span style="color: #FF0000">as for shooting and accuracy there is nothing the crusader can do that the hospitaller couldnt do better</span> </div></div>

I have both, I've put thousands of rounds through them, and my impression is a little different. They are both so good and so close, it's anyone's call. As you noted, the Hospitaller is more expensive up front. I doubt however, that its resale value is going to be that much higher relative to the initial investment that the Crusader. Regardless of the price, neither is markedly superior to the other, and ultimately, a preference one way or the other will likely come down to what the individual shooter likes, not any measurable difference in quality of the rifles. You simply can't go wrong with either one. </div></div>

if george called you up and told you he would build you one for free which one would you tell him you wanted? </div></div>

A Crusader without question. Not that I think that is likely to happen anytime soon (LOL). Seriously, I'm not trying to stir the pot or step on anyone's toes, but as I stated earlier, to me they're so close it comes down to very small differences and personal preference. The OP asked people's opinions on the two and I happen to have both, so I posted what I think.

I am fortunate that the difference in price between the two doesn't matter. I recently received a new GAP that is essentially a Crusader with a 28" pipe and my original Crusader is scheduled to arrive back from GAP tomorrow (rebarrel). Costwise, I could have gone with whatever I wanted. I chose the Crusader platform for the recent build just because I prefer it by a very small margin over the Hospitaller, the differences being ergonomics, etc., rather than accuracy or durability, as I mentioned above. I can certainly appreciate that someone else could go the other way. However, both of those rifles shoot so well, I seriously doubt that most shooters could ever substantiate the claim that one was better than the other with hard data. With either one, the shooter is going to be the limiting factor, which in my opinion is exactly where you want things to be.

As far as any issues for the Hospitaller extractor as mentioned above, all I can say is that I've never had any issues or noticed a difference with either. The extractor would not be a good reason to choose one over the other IMO.

 

[Gregch44]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i cant believe evryones on this m16 extractor bandwagon? i have tens of thousands of rounds throught remington 700's both when i was in the military and since as well as through my surgeon action and in all these years and well over 100,000 rounds i have never had 1 single failure to extract or eject becuase of the remington extractor, hell i have even beaten my bolt back before with a hammer and the remington extractor pulled the case. so why the m16 extractor? </div></div>

I recently had my Hospitaller re-barreled to 7SAUM at GAP, and bought a new magnum face bolt from Surgeon. Surgeon's magnum bolt comes with the M16/Sako extractor. Does Surgeon believe that it is stronger/better as well? It was not an upgrade, just the way they build them.

 

[Wade]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gregch44</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i cant believe evryones on this m16 extractor bandwagon? i have tens of thousands of rounds throught remington 700's both when i was in the military and since as well as through my surgeon action and in all these years and well over 100,000 rounds i have never had 1 single failure to extract or eject becuase of the remington extractor, hell i have even beaten my bolt back before with a hammer and the remington extractor pulled the case. so why the m16 extractor? </div></div>

I recently had my Hospitaller re-barreled to 7SAUM at GAP, and bought a new magnum face bolt from Surgeon. Surgeon's magnum bolt comes with the M16/Sako extractor. Does Surgeon believe that it is stronger/better as well? It was not an upgrade, just the way they build them. </div></div>

Surgeon's experience is that non-riveted remington style extractors as in 308 and 223 size as the most reliable extractor style used in any of the clones. The machining required to install these is slightly more involved. We do use m16 style extractors on our 591 and 1086 magnum rather than the riveted remington style. Both work well if properly installed.

Wade

 

[Gregch44]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wade</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gregch44</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i cant believe evryones on this m16 extractor bandwagon? i have tens of thousands of rounds throught remington 700's both when i was in the military and since as well as through my surgeon action and in all these years and well over 100,000 rounds i have never had 1 single failure to extract or eject becuase of the remington extractor, hell i have even beaten my bolt back before with a hammer and the remington extractor pulled the case. so why the m16 extractor? </div></div>

I recently had my Hospitaller re-barreled to 7SAUM at GAP, and bought a new magnum face bolt from Surgeon. Surgeon's magnum bolt comes with the M16/Sako extractor. Does Surgeon believe that it is stronger/better as well? It was not an upgrade, just the way they build them. </div></div>

Surgeon's experience is that non-riveted remington style extractors as in 308 and 223 size as the most reliable extractor style used in any of the clones. The machining required to install these is slightly more involved. We do use m16 style extractors on our 591 and 1086 magnum rather than the riveted remington style. Both work well if properly installed.

Wade </div></div>

Wow, Thank you for the explanation. I personly have no problem with either.

Greg

 

[Cologgi]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

You can't beat a surgeon action. Realistically they are both going to be great shooting guns. After shooting a thousand rounds or so out of my Surgeon, I am defiantly convinced that it is the best action on the market

 

[weber61]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

Wow! great comments and good info flowing here. I am getting more assitance than i hoped. Thanks everyone!

 

[weber61]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

anyone have insight into tolerances of the Templar and surgeon actions? By feel alone, the surgeon feels tighter. I wonder how it would cope with some gritty use.

 

[hyena74]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Weber61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">anyone have insight into tolerances of the Templar and surgeon actions? By feel alone, the surgeon feels tighter. I wonder how it would cope with some gritty use. </div></div>

i thought i read one of george's older posts that the templar was a little tighter...cant remember if he threw out any numbers. i havent heard anything about either not working when gritty.

 

[weber61]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

Great feedback. your guys are making this a tough, but exciting choice. IT seems I really cannot go wrong with either. that is a good place to be!!

 

[hyena74]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Weber61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great feedback. your guys are making this a tough, but exciting choice. IT seems I really cannot go wrong with either. that is a good place to be!! </div></div>

it gets better...now you have to decide if your want a mcmillan or manners stock..and if you should choose the manners you have to decide if you want it with the mini chassis or pillar bedded.

 

[Time Killer]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

What does a crusader usually cost? Curious, because I saw one today at a local gun shop with a NF on it.

 

[Time Killer]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

Nevermind, I looked on their website. Somebody is gonna get a good deal...

 

[ropegun]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Weber61</div><div class="ubbcode-body">anyone have insight into tolerances of the Templar and surgeon actions? By feel alone, the surgeon feels tighter. I wonder how it would cope with some gritty use. </div></div>

i thought i read one of george's older posts that the templar was a little tighter...cant remember if he threw out any numbers. i havent heard anything about either not working when gritty. </div></div>
I talked to GAP people for quite awhile about this issue when I took delivery of my second Crusader. The GAP reps state the Templar action locks up a bit (a very small bit) tighter than the Surgeon action, which I was told is why GAP gives a 3/8" guarantee on the Templar and a 1/2" guarantee on the Surgeon. Nevertheless, the reps stated not very many shooters have the skillsets to exploit the difference.

I saw no accuracy differences in my limited side-by-side shooting of Hospitaller and Crusader, both at shorter (100 yards) and longer (1000 yards) distances. IMO the Surgeon action definitely "wobbles" less in the cycling process -- when the bolt is most of the way to the rear. IMO the Templar action seems to lock up rounds into the chamber with a little more authority.

Both guns/actions are stellar products. I am confident I would be equally happy with either Hospitaller or Crusader. I have two Crusaders because Crusaders were available to purchase, due to other customers (evidently) backing out of their orders. Had Hospitallers been available to buy immediately instead, I would have purchased Hospitallers.

I can personally attest that both guns work well in gritty conditions. The worst grit occurred when I set my Crusader down on a loose dirt berm at Rifles Only in Texas during exercises on a windy day. I had to change mags and I set the gun down on the dirt berm, balanced over the action, without a magazine in the gun.

Doh!!

The Crusader's guts were seriously grungy. I blew as much dirt out of the mag well as possible, swabbed a finger in the mag well and chamber, cycled the bolt a few times, then loaded up and fired.

Yes, I could feel the grit in the action, but I had no cycling, firing, or extraction issues. My accuracy was as good (or maybe as bad) as ever.

I think the best way to solve this problem is....BUY BOTH!

 

[Speeddog]

Re: GAP crusader vs hospitaller?

I've got a .260 hospitaller on order with the Templar action instead of the Surgeon. Ken had no problem with the substitution, nor with some other custom stuff I ordered (including a Manner's T5-A stock). You might even say my build is no longer a hospitaller, given the changes I made.

As someone mentioned above GAP is in the business of custom rifle building; get one the way you want one.

Can't wait to get mine.