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Geissele 6 ARC in service with SOCCOM, some hands on comments.
- Thread starter ut755ln
- Start date
After watching the SOTAR video gauge testing the Geissele bolt carrier and going over the construction of it, I ordered one as well. Oddly enough, its built to tighter tolerances than my JP bolt carrier, and worked better with the JP bolt as well.
For the price (about $120 with promos/on sale if you can find them in stock), the value in that bolt carrier is a steal. Oddly enough, its also one of the lowest priced items Geissele sells.
Just don’t attach your can like they did in their pictures, currently 40 yards is the record for launching one down range.
The two I had gauged worse than Sionics, LMT, and KAC carriers I had on hand.
Sample size is everything. Chad is far from gospel.
In my case, it works pretty well, but yes you’re right sample size is everything.
I’ve been on the receiving end of garbage lately from CMC, Proof, Seekins, and Superlative arms so I was happy that the Geissele Bolt Carrier worked very well.
The fact that it worked with my JP bolt and standard gas rings while the JP full mass carrier didn’t, sold me.
Adding to my previous comment, I’ve yet to see anyone who gauges or tests parts as extensively as Chad from SOTAR, while going out of his way not to make blanket recommendations for brands.
If you feel there’s someone who is more unbiased or tests components in a better way, I’m all ears.
His work doesn’t need to be treated as “gospel” to acknowledge the fact that it’s rare to find anyone else who does anything like it, or even remotely close, without being a paid shill.
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I wonder if Magpul will make a mag? Or make a follower that could be swapped out of a.223/20 round mag?I’m fine overpaying for something, but not the magazine body, spring, feed lip geometry R&D, follower R&D, AND cool guy points
Or make a 3D print off the net?
FWIW, I gauged one 2 weeks ago and all of the specs were tight and efficient. Literally the lowest allowed value in the Colt TDP. Very very efficient. I use actual pin gauges.
It wasn’t perfect though. One of the gas key bolts broke loose easily at 20 inch pounds. The other gas key bolt was perfect. Geissele was willing to take the whole thing back and send me a new one. I specifically asked for a new Geissele gas key but they wouldn’t send me the key.
I elected to not send it back and to install a new BCM key that gauges perfectly and install it using OCKS bolts and golfball staking. Yes, I ensured the surface was true. Yes, I used loctite 620 on the surface. Yes, I also used red on the screws. Yes, I torqued to spec. Yes, I made sure the gas key path was clear, lol.
Lancer 300 BO mags with the metal lips feed 6 ARC rounds just fine.
At least for me in the last 300 rounds or so.
At least for me in the last 300 rounds or so.
So far I have used ASC 6.5 grendel mags, Duramag 6.5 grendel mags, and ASC 6mm arc mags.
Functionally there has been no difference from any of them. Physically, the 6 arc ASC mag has a different colored follower, and a minor profile change to the feed lips and other minor parts of the mag, including the angle of the feed lips.
I just don't see why they need this. Oh let me back up...they have to spend the budget money or they lose it. Who knows, they probably got a budget increase for this. A budget increase I might add that will never be decreased. It's stupid money. Most small arms engagements are fought from 300-500 meters, anything beyond that will be cleaned up with DMRs, sniper rifles, mortars and artillery. 5.56 is sufficient up to 500 meters especially with a 77gr projectile. I don't think Ukraine or Russia are crying about the insufficiency of their small arms ammunition. With war on the horizon it's a bad time for retooling. I just think that money would be better spent elsewhere.
I wish Geissele would have went with a Ridgeline Defense upper/ rail/ barrel interface for better mitigating POI shift when used hard or using a bipod. Also beefing up their Mlok handguard dimensions in some areas and also adding a Cobalt Kinetic’s VLTOR A5 buffer to the rifle.
Bro you sound like a total fudd.
I like 6 ARC and also 6 Max to extend the range, flatter shooting and have more lethality, for me, mainly from 0-600 yds. But until it becomes adopted across our armed services as the standard rifle cartridge, I will continue to use this 77gr match ammo when shooting out to 600 yds.
I have 2,500 rounds of Blackhills 77 so I feel you. Having said that, the 5.56 sucks in performance compared to the 6 ARC and the Hornady factory 6 ARC ammo is half the cost of the Blackhills.
One of the big SOF budgets was just reduced by 30% and they're expecting another 20% reduction of the remainder this year.
Ukraine and Russia are absolutely crying about the insufficiency of their small arms ammo.
You are completely ignorant.
Why would Geissele willingly include a competitor's proprietary buffer system, while they have their own buffer parts that they are specifically known for?
The correct reply was “go buy all three rifles and kitbash them if you think so”
I think he missed the point of buying a pre-built rifle.
If you want brand a's proprietary upper and handguard (which looks like a DD knockoff as it is), along with brand b's proprietary buffer system, why would you be looking at brand c's pre-built rifle in the first place?
Yea what do special operators who put in a capabilities gap...whose lives are at stake with this very equipment know.? How many mortars does a seal platoon carry? How often do they operate outside of artillery or CAS support? Or the 500 other scenarios that prove you have zero fucking idea what your talking about.
You should post less. Way less.
I may be speaking out of place of ignorance here but the 6 arc makes a lot of sense for sof guys. The 6 arc has probably the highest performance/weight ratio available. It make more sense than large frames in most cases imo. The ability to carry more ammo is probably one of the most important things to those guys due to logistics.
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So you're the guy who scours the interwebs searching high and low for opportunities to release your wrath on plebs who don't measure up to your vast knowledge of every single topic. I dare say you don't let any slip by you. Calm down Mr. and stop attaching your ego to every thread like it's life or death. I'm not attacking you personally. You are misconstruing what I said and conflating two totally different scenarios. Tell me, what's the average engagement for "special operators"? It's well under 300 meters, closer to 25. How often do you see a platoon or over size element of "special operators" duking it out on the open plains with the Taliban at over 600 meters? No, the majority of the time it's a squad and they're attached to Army or Marines and most of the time they will have designated marksmen, SPR's and snipers with them. If they're attached to army or marines they will have mortars and much bigger balls for that matter. If they had such a need for this then why do most choose the mk18 for the majority of their work? Hey, if a few guys want it or need it for a few scenarios here and there then give them whatever they need but all this retooling with new rifles and ammo for the entire military because big army thinks every war will be fought in Afghanistan is ridiculous. We don't need it and can't afford it. The country is broke and on the verge of war, war in Europe. What we need is more, much more of what we know works. Most guys love the 77gr SMK. They're satisfied with that. Make as much of that as possible. We don't need a new bullet for every problem. That's what I'm getting at and like I said it's my OPINION. I can post as much as I like...what are you some kind of communist or something?
At least someone can give their opinion without being emotionally involved.
I thought that's what this site was here for, to bounce ideas off each other and learn from one another. I guess some people don't get that. 
You're a real winner bud. I bet you do get a boner every time you feel the need to release your anger into the interwebs. Your toxicity is showing.
Wtf are you talking about? Sof guys have never been attached to any army or marine elements? Ok bro.
Is this like a verbal recon by fire? You just say a bunch of random shit to prompt corrections so you can try to figure out what really happens? Why not just say you don't know, if you don't know? And then ask people why and what, and then when they tell you, instead of arguing, just say....thanks, and go on about your day? Would that be so bad?
Are you...or have you ever been....in a SOF unit as a qualified member? (Not a support guy)
Guess you never heard of SOF guys being attached to the Marines in the battle of Fallujah. It's done all the time and the other way around Marines being attached to SOF. I think it's you who don't have a clue but it's ok if you want to come to your boyfriends rescue. I'm done with this conversation. It's pointless and I have better things to do. You guys can have fun lip boxing each other.
What if a SOF guy with 23 years of experience in SOF explained to you how it worked? Would you accept that as reality?
Are you...or have you ever had....your pecker in one hand while you type with the other as a qualified wanker. Your strong hand not your support hand. Yes you have
Am I right? You guys take shit way too serious. Have fun with that.If you were a SOF guy you wouldn't feel the need to correct everyone on the internet at every turn and present your SOF merit badge to every one you can to pump your ego. They don't feel the need to do that. Idc who you are, you can't tell me SOF are never attached to Marines and vise versa.
@Xerum525 I will throw you a bone. Go to YouTube and search the Jedburgh podcast and find the episode with SGM of the Army CSM Mike Weimer and wait for specifically the content where he talks about preparing for large-scale combat operations in the next war. Maybe that will provide you some context why your analogies based in early gwot aren't relevant to future force modernization.
Related but different: Years of constant combat hyper-evolves tactics, doctrine, SOPs, and unit culture. The way we started in GWOT wasn't the way we finished. A force and it's enemy will trade a constant batting back and forth of "measure" / "counter-measure". Evolve to a new "measure", get counter-measure'd, freq-hop again to a new-new measure, they field a new counter-measure. So on, and so forth. Your analogy about 2003 GWOT is irrelevant in a discussion about large-scale combat operations in 2030 - 2040. Everyone knows you don't prepare for the next war by training for the last war. It's foolish to say, "77gr was good enough in 2004 so we'll just stick with it". Our nations best are mentally agile and flexible, unafraid of change, and strive yo thrive in uncomfortable situations. If you're the guy that can't move on and be forward thinking you're going to get left behind.
I too, like the rest of you, am watching our force modernization units and agencies test and experiment with the NGSW, 277 Fury, and 6ARC pushing industry to develop our next generation of capabilities. I see, probably more than the vast majority of you, the issues of actually trying to field a lot of those weapons and munitions. Our budgets are dwindling, the sdzs on our ranges don't support those munitions, and our live fire shoot houses and baffle ranges won't survive the wear and tear of those munitions. Our current tt&ps and standards for combat marksmanship also won't survive the ngsw. We will have to modify our training programs to develop training solutions that match equipment solutions. STRAC allotments take years to update for these new munitions. No shortage of problems. But I am patient and supportive of their efforts because I know that it is required so that we aren't outgunned in the next fight. Some of what you see them working on may never make it to combat. Some of these programs are just one iteration on the evolutionary ladder, not the end result.
Also, you use the word "attached" like a hog uses a wristwatch. What you're trying to describe is SOF - conventional force integration. But SOF doesn't equip itself based on an assumption it's going to have access and primacy of a yet unknown partnered conventional force's weapons some months and years down the road. Your premise is false.
Related but different: Years of constant combat hyper-evolves tactics, doctrine, SOPs, and unit culture. The way we started in GWOT wasn't the way we finished. A force and it's enemy will trade a constant batting back and forth of "measure" / "counter-measure". Evolve to a new "measure", get counter-measure'd, freq-hop again to a new-new measure, they field a new counter-measure. So on, and so forth. Your analogy about 2003 GWOT is irrelevant in a discussion about large-scale combat operations in 2030 - 2040. Everyone knows you don't prepare for the next war by training for the last war. It's foolish to say, "77gr was good enough in 2004 so we'll just stick with it". Our nations best are mentally agile and flexible, unafraid of change, and strive yo thrive in uncomfortable situations. If you're the guy that can't move on and be forward thinking you're going to get left behind.
I too, like the rest of you, am watching our force modernization units and agencies test and experiment with the NGSW, 277 Fury, and 6ARC pushing industry to develop our next generation of capabilities. I see, probably more than the vast majority of you, the issues of actually trying to field a lot of those weapons and munitions. Our budgets are dwindling, the sdzs on our ranges don't support those munitions, and our live fire shoot houses and baffle ranges won't survive the wear and tear of those munitions. Our current tt&ps and standards for combat marksmanship also won't survive the ngsw. We will have to modify our training programs to develop training solutions that match equipment solutions. STRAC allotments take years to update for these new munitions. No shortage of problems. But I am patient and supportive of their efforts because I know that it is required so that we aren't outgunned in the next fight. Some of what you see them working on may never make it to combat. Some of these programs are just one iteration on the evolutionary ladder, not the end result.
Also, you use the word "attached" like a hog uses a wristwatch. What you're trying to describe is SOF - conventional force integration. But SOF doesn't equip itself based on an assumption it's going to have access and primacy of a yet unknown partnered conventional force's weapons some months and years down the road. Your premise is false.
You lost an argument and you're being a child about it.Are you...or have you ever had....your pecker in one hand while you type with the other as a qualified wanker. Your strong hand not your support hand. Yes you have
IMO the .277 fury is more of a test bed than a full on replacement. I think it’s way too heavy, abusive on equipment, and recoil is way too high to replace the 556. Maybe the military can incorporate some of the tech from that program but I think it’s a failure tbh. Honestly a 6arc in a platform that can handle 62k psi is probably the perfect compromise between weight, performance and recoil. The Geissele gfr might be able to handle those higher pressures (62k) and I’ll test that out on my two. Regardless the military hasn’t ever been known to be efficient with money in the first place.
I always wondered why the .277 Fury technology didn't get adapted to rounds that would work in the AR15 platform. An 80K PSI 5.56 seems like it could scratch a lot of itches without much more than a stronger bolt. A 6ARC version would be very interesting as well but I am not as sure on how well an upgraded bolt would handle the extra pressure.
I agree. A small frame platform in an intermediate round that handle a slightly higher pressure topping out at 70-75k psi would probably be an ideal solution. I think once you go above 80k psi the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. A large frame at those pressures is just punishing on everyone from the shooter to the gun. The weight doesn’t help either.
My guess is that all that is secondary to armour penetration right now in the development process. They will iterate, even after initial fielding, to improve weight and recoil but nothing matters unless it meets terminal objectives and is reliable. But that's just my guess because I'm not involved in any of that development or testing.
Another thing that taxpayers don't think of in these discussions is mobilizing the industrial base for large scale combat (WWIII). What is it going to take to build, enlist, coerce, encourage a manufacturing base that will sustain years of combat where attrition of munitions and war stock will ultimately win the day? Survival as a nation may depend on how non-DOD, private business and industry choose to join the fight. Bringing those entities into the fold to build an American team of statesmanship may be key to winning. Complaining about the cost of developing a 6mm round that's been on Robert Whitley's website for over a decade is pretty small.
This is all true. Small arms development as a whole is peanuts compared to the whole picture. Just on brand for the government
.I am genuinely curious how all the anti-government, distrust of the establishment ideology will age in WWIII when Amazon assumes the role of negotiator with our existential foe and every Americans' mortgages are force-sold to Chinese banks, and no one has seen coffee in three years and toilet paper assumes the role of the new national currency as a commodity with real valueThis is all true. Small arms development as a whole is peanuts compared to the whole picture. Just on brand for the government
Ok, I'll throw this in to bring the simmer back up to a boil. Are not the 6 ARC and 6 Max identical ballistic-wise? I know there's much discussion prior just in this thread about the strength of the Grendel bolt but the 6 MAX just makes more sense to me with the common bolt. It seems to be the cartridge equivalent to Betamax vs. VHS, hd dvd vs. blu-ray, etc.
I don't have the knowledge nor the inclination to know all about the performance of small arms where my stolen taxes are being sent in eastern Europe. To an old cold war REMF, it looks a lot like WWI with drones and .338 Lapua snipers. It would seem like not a whole lot for Russians to spin up AKs in 6.5 Grendel if they're not happy. Does anyone know if that's been done?
I don't have the knowledge nor the inclination to know all about the performance of small arms where my stolen taxes are being sent in eastern Europe. To an old cold war REMF, it looks a lot like WWI with drones and .338 Lapua snipers. It would seem like not a whole lot for Russians to spin up AKs in 6.5 Grendel if they're not happy. Does anyone know if that's been done?
