General Question

phillip61

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My custom 308 is 20 years old. I can shoot it around .75"MOA consistently. I don't know if this is all the gun will do or if that is all I can do, but I have fun shooting either way. I currently shoot out to 600yds with 168gr. I would really like something that will shoot out to 1000yds +. I found a gunsmith here in town that says he will build me a 300win mag. for my gun + $1100. The new build will have a HS precision stock, Kreiger stainless barrel with muzzle brake., gun works trigger and he guarantees it to shoot .5" or better.

Does this sound like a deal anyone here would make?
 
That .308 will shoot to 1000 yds, don't need a 300 win mag to do that. It may not be the best 1000 yard gun but it will do it, may need to reload to bring in your groupings a little bit or find some factory ammo that shoots better in it.

As far as the gun smith work I don't really know on that. You can buy 300 win mags close to that price that can shoot .5 MOA, but that is not a guarantee, it could be a piece of junk.

Also, a win mag is a long action, I would think a lot of work would have to be done with the chamber and bolt. I'm not an expert on this but I would think that work and what you mentioned above would cost quite a bit more than 1100. I could be wrong maybe some one else has some advice.
 
General Question

Why would you trade a rifle that shoots for a rifle that you don't need.... And give cash on top of it?

Besides, accuracy guarantees are nothing but marketing. Don't fall for the tourist traps.
 
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^^^^ that.

Also, it's a fair bet that the rifle will always out-shoot the shooter. I may be wrong here, but if I could rely on a .75" group/hold i'd be pretty happy.

1000 with a .308win? Absolutely. A local guy I know loves the 155 berger hybrids out that far. And a 175smk will do it too.
 
I agree with these guys. Stick to your current gun. It'll work fine out to 1000 yards. If you really want a wind cheating cartridge that you can push a little past 1K, look into the short action 6mm and 6.5mm's. Then you can rebarrel your current rifle (through a reputable smith) to that cartridge.
 
Why would you trade a rifle that shoots for a rifle that you don't need.... And give cash on top of it?

Besides, accuracy guarantees are nothing but marketing. Don't fall for the tourist traps.


Thanks Graham. Your response leads me to another question. My rifle has a 1:12 twist which I understand shoots the 168 really well. It is also my understanding that the 168 becomes unstable after 800yds or so. Can I shoot the lighter or heavier bullets to 1000 with the same gun or will the 168's do it. I need all the clarification on this I can stand.

Again, thanks for your response. I wasn't really wanting to get rid of my rifle, I've had it for awhile and have just gotten kind of use to it. She may not be the prettiest or shoot the farthest, but shes mine. I would just like to know what kind of long range potential I can get out of her.
 
Thanks Graham. Your response leads me to another question. My rifle has a 1:12 twist which I understand shoots the 168 really well. It is also my understanding that the 168 becomes unstable after 800yds or so. Can I shoot the lighter or heavier bullets to 1000 with the same gun or will the 168's do it. I need all the clarification on this I can stand.

Again, thanks for your response. I wasn't really wanting to get rid of my rifle, I've had it for awhile and have just gotten kind of use to it. She may not be the prettiest or shoot the farthest, but shes mine. I would just like to know what kind of long range potential I can get out of her.
All 168s do not become unstable at 800 yards. The 168SMK, at standard .308 velocities, can go subsonic at that distance depending on environmental conditions, and that particular bullet does not transition well due to the design of its boat-tail. And my 12-twist Lothar Walther barrel shoots 180VLDs very well at 2740fps. It depends on the barrel. You need velocity and BC to stay supersonic at distance. Try different bullets before you go switching rifles.
 
I have run the numbers on JBM while working on load development, 168SMK's will hit @ 1000yards and be supersonic. SMK's, from what I have heard and seen in my developments, can go wonky at trans sonic speeds, but if your rifle can handle and shoot it, you should be able to hit 1k.

1/12 twist in theory wont fire a 175gr with any reliable accuracy, but, mine does it just fine and Im not forced to sling them at insane velocities and pressures. However my rifle shoots shotgun patterns with 155 and 147gr loads, cant seem to get lighter lead to fly straight, testing another 155 load today though. Its a get general info and see what your experiences turn out to be kind of thing. Rifles are like women, same mother/manufacturer, different temperaments and "looks" entirely.
 
Try 175 gr Sierras, 168 Gr Berger, 175 gr Berger, 180 gr Berger, etc. Your .308 will do it if you're capable. You don't need a .300 Win. If you're worried about the the capability of your .308, try it. I'd imagine GAP or one of the other smiths could rebarrel your gun for less than $1100.
 
Before I would comment on the rifle, I'd ask about your optics. Your quest for MOA might be limited by the power of your glass.

What magnification and ocular are you limited to? A 10-50X60 brings the bull awful close, even for the 308.
 
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Before I would comment on the rifle, I'd ask about your optics. Your quest for MOA might be limited by the power of your glass.

What magnification and ocular are you limited to? A 10-50X60 brings the bull awful close, even for the 308.

I have a IOR 3.5X18X50. Heres a pic of the gun and scope.



Heres a pic of my 600yd range



Heres a pic of my last 3 shot group at 600yds.

 
Not to dissuade you from the .300 win mag, but like these ppl are saying, there are a number of projectiles that your 1-12" will spin that will get on out there to 1000 yds.

I've got a .300 win mag and a .308. If I had to keep one, it would be the .308. I would not get rid of the .308 to get a .300 win mag. reason for me is that I just shoot the .308 more. It is more economical in all respects: less blast, less recoil, less component cost.
 
Nice rig, Phillip. But if I must say, that's the loveliest range I've ever seen. Do you service your targets in a rowboat?

we get around to the other side of the lake on four wheelers. It's about a five minute ride to get around there. To me thats part of the fun of shooting there.
 
Scenars like a tight bore. They may work well in a factory rifle, or may not. You've got to try them.

I don't feel too bad derailing the thread from the OP given that his question has been largely addressed. Phillip, please tell me off if not! But...

The above statement puzzles me. Not that a bullet would "like" a set of circumstances more than another, but why. My first guess was a bearing surface issue; the lapua has a shorter bearing surface, so the better gas seal of a tighter bore... etc etc. But then I looked at some measurements, and it appears the Sierra (in 155) has the shortest bearing surface of all the Palma offerings (Litz). So Graham, why do you say the scenar likes tight bores? (aside from the obvious that we all like tight bores;))
 
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pinsandpitons,

The 155 Palma bullets violate several primary rules for bullet design, and their having less than one caliber's worth of bearing surface is the most noteworthy and obvious. Have to understand that 155 grains isn't the "best" weight or design for a 1,000 yard 308 Win bullet, but what the international Palma rules require; the bullets were made to fit within those rules. In order to produce that bullet, Sierra had to make some sacrifices that went against conventional bullet design. At the time of its introduction, many of the Palma shooters were running very tight bores, due to the use of RG ammo at Bisley. The RG stuff had some concentricity issues (among other things) and the tighter bores seemed to help get the best out of them. With the advent of the 155 Palmas, and their reduced bearing surface, those same tight bores gave pretty good results. The concept stuck, and the same line of thought holds true for the newer 155 Palma designs from Berger, Lapua, etc..

I see a lot of guys who assume that since this is what the Palma shooters are using, they must be the best 1,000 yard bullets in a 308. Again, they're not, but they're what the rules require. This is part of what makes Palma so challenging. Given our druthers, most American LR shooters would immediately opt for a heaver bullet and a better BC. Most of the guns built for this game (if the shooter has no intention of shooting an international match where the 155s are required) are set up with faster twists which enable the shooter to use the 185s, 190s, 200s and so on. There, the tight bore is usually dropped, and a conventional .300" bore/.308" groove is used. The 155 Palmas also are best served by one of the various Palma reamers, which usually have a substantially shorter throat, to accommodate that one, particular bullet design. In a standard .308 Win chamber and throat, they may, or may not, work quite so well.

In any case, it's worth doing a little digging to find out the "whys" behind some of the decisions competitive shooters make when setting up their guns, rather than just duplicating what they have if you may not actually need to. As everyone else here has already pointed out, the 175s will work well, as will the various 185s and so on. In a conventionally chambered rifle (as in, a factory chambering job) these may be better choices than the 155s.