German student Diren Dede killed in 'castle doctrine' case

[KentuckyWindage]

Keyword "was".

Have you ever watched "cops" when they have a sting going on? Selling meth in the city, the police (undercover) offer it for sale, they verbally coax the tweakers into buying, then slam their face into the pavement and charge them with felony drug possession as soon as they hand over the cash. I fail to see the difference between this Montana boy and the police. (other than the obvious, thief is dead, arrested tweaker is convicted of possession, fined then paroled to be popped later for the same thing and fined again). What say ye?

 

[Slapchop]

This guy is a murderer plain and simple. A retarded one at that. He was so excited at the prospect of taking a life that he couldn't keep his mouth shut. Fuck him, he's no better than the alleged thief he killed. When I used to work midnights, often times we would get calls of a burglary in progress with the perp still inside the residence. A good amount of those jobs were nothing more than some drunken buffoon stumbling into the wrong house or garage.

His intent was clearly there, he's got an uphill battle and hopefully he goes to prison. What some of you that are cheering for this guy fail to realize is that, it's guys like him that are going to make things tougher for everyone in the long run.

Now on the flip side, if more shit like that happened to people who venture in places (homes) where they're not wanted/invited, I'm sure we'd see a dramatic decrease in the amount of burglary and property related crimes nationwide.

 

[Darkside-Six]

The real issue here is that this fucker just wanted to shoot someone. He bragged to the hair stylist that he wanted to shoot them and then he baited them. He thought that he could hide behind castle doctrine. He could have went out there with a bat and beat the shit out if the kid and been a whole lot better off and just as effective.

 

[KentuckyWindage]

The real issue here is that this fucker just wanted to shoot someone. He bragged to the hair stylist that he wanted to shoot them and then he baited them.

Truth. I don't cheer for montana boy. I enjoy arguing the similarities between evils.

 

[pawprint2]

A descendent of Nazis is dictating to the American justice system what should and should not be legal? These are gun grabbers, socialists, half the country was part of the Soviet block for 50 years-but they know best? Are you kidding!!! These guys love making guns for sale in the US, but they don't allow their own people FREE ownership, I don't believe they execute criminals at all in Germany. Maybe they had enough executions in the 1940's to last for a while, but nonetheless, gun grabbers, anti-American scum, will use any excuse to harm us, let there be no doubt. We should be demanding that germans stop being "cowboys" when bring up their children, maybe if this father had instilled a better sense of right and wrong into his son, this situation would never have happened.

 

[Dogtown]

Holy shit, where's the ignore button?!

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

A descendent of Nazis is dictating to the American justice system what should and should not be legal? These are gun grabbers, socialists, half the country was part of the Soviet block for 50 years-but they know best? Are you kidding!!! These guys love making guns for sale in the US, but they don't allow their own people FREE ownership, I don't believe they execute criminals at all in Germany. Maybe they had enough executions in the 1940's to last for a while, but nonetheless, gun grabbers, anti-American scum, will use any excuse to harm us, let there be no doubt. We should be demanding that germans stop being "cowboys" when bring up their children, maybe if this father had instilled a better sense of right and wrong into his son, this situation would never have happened.

Except the dead guy is Turkish:

"The son of a family of Turkish immigrants to Germany, Diren was attending Big Sky High School in Missoula, Montana, for one year as part of an exchange program."

But go ahead with the Nazi rant, people love being reminded of what some of their grandparents and great-grandparents did... hey, anyone here inherit an "I shot the Bonus Army marchers" t-shirt or medal?

Other than misguided Nazi jabs, I agree (as in my first post) that foreigners have no business telling us how to run our domestic policy. If you read the news, China's state media are FREQUENTLY telling the US it needs to ban guns.

 

[KentuckyWindage]

A descendent of Nazis is dictating to the American justice system what should and should not be legal? These are gun grabbers, socialists, half the country was part of the Soviet block for 50 years-but they know best? Are you kidding!!! These guys love making guns for sale in the US, but they don't allow their own people FREE ownership, I don't believe they execute criminals at all in Germany. Maybe they had enough executions in the 1940's to last for a while, but nonetheless, gun grabbers, anti-American scum, will use any excuse to harm us, let there be no doubt. We should be demanding that germans stop being "cowboys" when bring up their children, maybe if this father had instilled a better sense of right and wrong into his son, this situation would never have happened.

It's not really that crazy when you think obama is our president!

 

[pawprint2]

Except the dead guy is Turkish:

"The son of a family of Turkish immigrants to Germany, Diren was attending Big Sky High School in Missoula, Montana, for one year as part of an exchange program."

But go ahead with the Nazi rant, people love being reminded of what some of their grandparents and great-grandparents did... hey, anyone here inherit an "I shot the Bonus Army marchers" t-shirt or medal?

Other than misguided Nazi jabs, I agree (as in my first post) that foreigners have no business telling us how to run our domestic policy. If you read the news, China's state media are FREQUENTLY telling the US it needs to ban guns.

Allow me to fix any problem with my original statement: Maybe the boys father, Turkish, german, or an alien from Mars, should have spent more time teaching his son right from wrong. We, American's have a history that makes us American's! To compare the shootings (as bad as they were) in the bonus march, to the killing of millions upon millions in death camps, is, well, just mindless! For the most part, I do love being reminded what generations of American's did, mistakes, yes of course they made some, however; the good so far out weights the bad, it is nothing but sour grapes to knock our forefathers contributions to the world. It is wise to understand the history of other countries, as their history has an influence on their actions today, to think otherwise is a fools path.

 

[softcock]

Some get prosecuted & some called hero

Intruder shot by 12-year-old girl, police call her a hero - National Crime | Examiner.com
-

 

[1time]

German student Diren Dede killed in 'castle doctrine' case

Some get prosecuted & some called hero

Intruder shot by 12-year-old girl, police call her a hero - National Crime | Examiner.com
-

You are comparing a 12 year old girl hiding in a bathroom while and intruder kicks in the door to a grown man baiting a thief, then goes outside, flanks him an open fire after bragging that he was going to bait and shoot said thief?

 

[FS1]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.survivalism/aBgChh9Z-5o

This happened a few years ago. The marine was white the robbers were black. There was not a negative word out of anyone on this, just as it should be.

These scumbags got an education on concealed carry and the dangers of upsetting a bad ass retired Marines dinner. He could have have let them leave without incident, but he gave them what they deserved. And no one that I can remember ever tried to say he was wrong. Because he was not wrong. The case we are talking about is a very different situation.

People are not against justice, but murder is not justice.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Ill pass on the shovel, I have a john deer tractor.

 

[BPaulk]

The Deer was feeding the Kid was stealing. From another one of your posts how did a thief become a victim.

Neither did the deer.

 

[1time]

When the premeditated murder was carried out.

 

[BPaulk]

Bad choices make for bad consequences for both the Baiter and the thief. I really hate thief's If you have ever been robed we have at our Cleaners or stolen from like the baiter had sometimes people get enough. This is bad for both parties the thief made a choice to steal. I feel bad for both but really bad for the man protecting is property.

 

[FS1]

The article said it was unclear what the kid was doing. He was likely a thief but that is not known yet. I will let the courts decide. If he is found not guilty or not charged like a previous poster noted with a link to a similar case. Well then I will live with that decision whether I agree or not. He had his day in court.

When I was growing up we had a kid in the neighborhood who was a sleep walker. They found him at different places all over the neighborhood. Sleeping in peoples yards, on their patio chairs and even in cars. He never knew how he got there.

As good moral men don't we have a responsibility to think before we shoot. I know it is not always possible, but in this case it was.

 

[1time]

I hate a thief as much as the next guy. I have had my home burglarized when I was younger and my vehicles broken into several times. When I caught two guys breaking into my shed I detained them until the police arrived. I did not go outside and start shooting. He was not robbed. There was no force or threat of force. He committed murder. The punishment does not fit the crime.

 

[ArmyJerry]

At 17 I would not refer to the guy as a kid, I was already done with basic and AIT at 17, so was my oldest son, this guy was a adult and should have known better than to break into someones garage.

 

[pawprint2]

I guess we'll never know, as the burglar was a "minor", how many crimes he had committed in the past, not just in the US, but in Germany. The German govt should take a big piece of the responsibility, as they sent ( on the exchange program) this criminal to our shores. We (America) did not make him a criminal, he came that way.

 

[Mister Ridge]

Have any of the stories indicated the presence of conclusive proof or reasonable suspicion that the deceased actually intended to steal anything from the garage?

 

[pawprint2]

Turkish immigrants into Germany are extremely likely to be or become criminals, so much so that Germany is importing Turkish police!!! Yes, they are going to import Turkish police to deal with the overwhelming problem of crime being committed by Turkish immigrants. By sending this particular Turkish immigrant( to Germany) to study in the US, may have been kicking the can down the road. The Germans can't deal with it, so they import Turkish cops, when that doesn't work they send them to the US? Who knows, as the records of a "minor" won't be made public.

 

[Pat M]

??? so,,, what is buying drugs from an undercover cop / drunk driving check points

 

[Slapchop]

??? so,,, what is buying drugs from an undercover cop / drunk driving check points

A bit of a stretch to draw parallels between DUI/DWI checkpoints and the case being discussed here no? Some of you guys just can't help yourselves lol

 

[softcock]

You are comparing a 12 year old girl hiding in a bathroom while and intruder kicks in the door to a grown man baiting a thief, then goes outside, flanks him an open fire after bragging that he was going to bait and shoot said thief?

-

AHhhh. but maybe the states prosecutor was laying down on the job and they have a common theme . Maybe the family in premeditated fashion . Took the 12 year old minor and repeatedly drilled the child with firearms instruction and the use of dealing out deadly force . Then, Recklessly abandoning there minor child alone in the home in an attempt to bait a home intruder to break-in with false knowledge that nothing was to stand in getting what he was after than a helpless child alone . The family Knowing the whole time the child was a remorseless killing machine in waiting ???
.

 

[1time]

-

AHhhh. but maybe the states prosecutor was laying down on the job and they have a common theme . Maybe the family in premeditated fashion . Took the 12 year old minor and repeatedly drilled the child with firearms instruction and the use of dealing out deadly force . Then, Recklessly abandoning there minor child alone in the home in an attempt to bait a home intruder to break-in with false knowledge that nothing was to stand in getting what he was after than a helpless child alone . The family Knowing the whole time the child was a remorseless killing machine in waiting ???
.

That could have happened. But if it did they either didn't tell their hair stylist or their stylist is a lot more trustworthy.

 

[KentuckyWindage]

Have you ever watched "cops" when they have a sting going on? Selling meth in the city, the police (undercover) offer it for sale, they verbally coax the tweakers into buying, then slam their face into the pavement and charge them with felony drug possession as soon as they hand over the cash. I fail to see the difference between this Montana boy and the police. (other than the obvious, thief is dead, arrested tweaker is convicted of possession, fined then paroled to be popped later for the same thing and fined again). What say ye?

??? so,,, what is buying drugs from an undercover cop / drunk driving check points

A bit of a stretch to draw parallels between DUI/DWI checkpoints and the case being discussed here no? Some of you guys just can't help yourselves lol

Baiting slapcop. We are talking about baiting here.

 

[Slapchop]

How is having a check point, baiting? No one baits, compels or coerces anyone to drive drunk. You decide to do it on your own. At a checkpoint, you're just getting caught. And 2, I don't remember anyone being executed as a result of a DUI/DWI check point.

 

[bigsky23]

Sleepwalkers don't shop in garages with flashlights at night.

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net...355_783344061676993_2014230310133371537_n.png

 

[KentuckyWindage]

How is having a check point, baiting? No one baits, compels or coerces anyone to drive drunk. You decide to do it on your own. At a checkpoint, you're just getting caught. And 2, I don't remember anyone being executed as a result of a DUI/DWI check point.

That isn't baiting, however it is illegal in the is country to stop citizens and check their IDs. Fuck your "in the interest of public safety bullshit."
What is your opinion on the rest of the post?

 

[1TallTx'n]

There is nothing in my garage worth killing someone over. Now if they come into the house, it will be a race to see who gets them first, me, the wife or the dog.

This guy was baited. No, he didn't have to take the bait but he did.

 

[Slapchop]

That isn't baiting, however it is illegal in the is country to stop citizens and check their IDs. Fuck your "in the interest of public safety bullshit."
What is your opinion on the rest of the post?

Actually it's perfectly legal to stop a motorist when he/she is operating a motor vehicle on a public road. You might want to double check your source. As far as my opinion on the case itself. I believe that this guy had the intent to kill someone and took the steps to do so. He is no better than the thief in my opinion.

On the flip side, I firmly believe if more burglars were shot and killed for their troubles, the amount of burglary related crimes would drastically decrease. That being said, personally I wouldn't "bait" my home or set a trap to invite burglars in just so I could shoot them. To echo someone's sentiment earlier, I don't think I would be so quick to kill over property.

This guy isn't doing any of us any favors though, don't be surprised if there is a push to "look into" the castle doctrine as a result of these last couple of cases.

 

[KentuckyWindage]

Actually it's perfectly legal to stop a motorist when he/she is operating a motor vehicle on a public road. You might want to double check your source. As far as my opinion on the case itself. I believe that this guy had the intent to kill someone and took the steps to do so. He is no better than the thief in my opinion.

On the flip side, I firmly believe if more burglars were shot and killed for their troubles, the amount of burglary related crimes would drastically decrease. That being said, personally I wouldn't "bait" my home or set a trap to invite burglars in just so I could shoot them. To echo someone's sentiment earlier, I don't think I would be so quick to kill over property.

This guy isn't doing any of us any favors though, don't be surprised if there is a push to "look into" the castle doctrine as a result of these last couple of cases.

Good, so, baiting is wrong then correct?

 

[Slapchop]

Baiting a home in order to ambush someone and kill them is BOTH wrong and unlawful in my opinion.

ETA:edited as per counsels request.

 

[Graham]

German student Diren Dede killed in 'castle doctrine' case

Good, so, baiting is wrong then correct?

Wrong is a value judgement. Unlawful is more factually correct.

 

[KentuckyWindage]

Wrong is a value judgement. Unlawful is more factually correct.

Good call.

Edit: Thanks for the convo guys, I'm out. Keep it American!

 

[hunterb]

The only stupid thing here to learn from is - Don't be a moron and tell anyone you left bait outside. The answer is always, I heard something, I went to check it out, I was scared shitless, the guy came at me. Boom.

EXACTLY. The guy is going to jail for being stupid and running his mouth, nothing more. KEEP YOUR TRAP SHUT. Loose lips, sink ships, or get your arse thrown in jail for murder.
"I was in fear for my life." "That is all I am saying, now I want a lawyer."

 

[1time]

Baiting is not the problem. The intent to kill them is the sticking issue. If you want to leave things in your yard and sit up all night to catch them, I will come out and arrest everyone you catch.

The problem is he had no intent to catch them. Is intent was to shoot them.

 

[EddieNFL]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.survivalism/aBgChh9Z-5o

This happened a few years ago. The marine was white the robbers were black. There was not a negative word out of anyone on this, just as it should be.

These scumbags got an education on concealed carry and the dangers of upsetting a bad ass retired Marines dinner. He could have have let them leave without incident, but he gave them what they deserved. And no one that I can remember ever tried to say he was wrong. Because he was not wrong. The case we are talking about is a very different situation.

People are not against justice, but murder is not justice.

I remember this case. I believe the article you linked is a little light on facts. The Colonel was taken to a back room and told to get on his knees. He said he was certain they intended to kill him. IIRC he used the opportunity to turn his gunside away from the BGs, draw and, very effectively, fire. The mother of the DOA (who was just turning his life around) was appalled the Colonel wasn't charged. In her words no one should be able to murder someone.

 

[pawprint2]

Baiting is a value judgment. Are those that feel "baiting" means, any normal person would become a burglar and thief if they saw certain items in a garage? Would a pretty girl sitting in her garage, alone, be considered bait that would turn a normal man into a rapist? Where does the "bait" begin and end? I contend, in fact I live it, no one else's property is going to turn me into a thief, or a burglar. For those of you thinking that given some "good stuff" sitting in another mans garage would temp you into becoming a criminal, let me help you out. You are already a criminal (where it counts most, in your mind) you just haven't found the right opportunity to act. The "baiting" as it has been called here did not have a magical power over the criminal that was killed, it didn't turn him into a frog, nor did it turn him into a criminal, he came that way.

 

[icu812]

Im glad some asshole didnt kill me as a teenager for tresspassing. Even if the kid was looking for something to walk off with, I really dont think he deserved to be gunned down. Kids make mistakes. To bad this kid wont get a second chance.

 

[drafter]

Well, why doesn't someone start a POLL on this subject, since there's a distinct difference in mind set and opinion.

1 ) The dead MAN got what he deserved? Let the trigger man go , he defended his property and killed a thief, He did NOT create the thief, the young man was already a thief .
2 ) This is nothing shy of bait ( opportunity ) and murder?
3) Of no opinion, I can not pass judgment, I wasn't their.

 

[Graywolf.260]

This happened in the town where I live. Personally I think it's just a tragedy. The kid who was killed obviously made a bad decision. I'm not defending him, but there was quite a bit written about him in the local paper, quotes from his host family, etc. He didn't fit the description of a violent offender, more like a regular kid, well-liked soccer player with a lot of friends. There's clearly no excuse for what he did but if every teenager that made a stupid decision was being shot, the second amendment would be in serious jeopardy. I'd probably be dead and I wager a lot of you guys would have at least been winged.
There are some more pertinent details in the local paper, like there was a second kid with him who ran away when the homeowner came out with the shotgun. The police haven't released any info about the second kid but they have questioned him. It's going to be an important trial that will highlight all the ethical issues that have been discussed in the thread.

 

[FS1]

I remember this case. I believe the article you linked is a little light on facts. The Colonel was taken to a back room and told to get on his knees. He said he was certain they intended to kill him. IIRC he used the opportunity to turn his gunside away from the BGs, draw and, very effectively, fire. The mother of the DOA (who was just turning his life around) was appalled the Colonel wasn't charged. In her words no one should be able to murder someone.

It was not meant as an in depth study just a reference. Of course his momma thinks that. But she should have expected the possibility of his death if her baby was using guns to rob subways.

BTW other than momma it pretty well fell on deaf ears.

 

[EddieNFL]

It was not meant as an in depth study just a reference. Of course his momma thinks that. But she should have expected the possibility of his death if her baby was using guns to rob subways.

BTW other than momma it pretty well fell on deaf ears.

My reply was meant to point out the good Colonel was defending his life, not just property.

 

[FS1]

My reply was meant to point out the good Colonel was defending his life, not just property.

Understood.

 

[Centuriator]

I've read more reports about this incident and something is more than a bit fishy here.

The home owner set a trap, baited it and bragged how he was going to shoot some "kids."

I'd say this was not a good shoot.

 

[EddieNFL]

I'd say this was not a good shoot.

Based on reports it wasn't. I have no sympathy for either side.

 

[FS1]

My reply was meant to point out the good Colonel was defending his life, not just property.

To add to my previous answer. The big difference in the two cases is the subway robbers were armed. I would expect fear of life is pretty much a given in that case.

 

[tt123]

He should followed the 3 S rule.

Good idea! By the time he was finished with sh*tting, showering, and shaving, the German would probably be long gone, and Mr Kaarma wouldn't be facing a murder charge!


I'm not sure where I stand on this case to be truthful, I think people should have the right to defend their homes and property, and Mr Diren had no business being in the garage. It actually reminds me a bit of another case I read about recently: Court releases audio of burglars being murdered by Byron Smith | Mail Online