Thanks for your input Nick. I've seen you post quite a bit of good information in many different threads. It seems you're a gas gun guy. I hope to get some more useful information here about that platform. I'm here to learn.
Getting LaRue OBR 5.56 to group
- Thread starter bluto77
- Start date
maybe..... but also happens to be the most accurate rifle that I've ever owned... ever. I like cherry Kool-Aid on hot summer days. all process of elimination to figure out what's going on with my brother's rifle.
About those factory supplied test targets....The gun is not locked down. Second, the guys at Larue are not spending any time trying to get the best group. They fire those targets to make sure the gun is under 1" at 100 yds and that is all. In the beginning they shot nice groups but they certainly don't do that anymore. What you see on that test target is not a good example of what the rifle is capable of. Most of the time the rifle will do much better than that.
The only thing I can think of is your cheek weld. I have never used a RISR like you have but that scope looks to be pretty high. Can you get a good cheek weld? Are you coming off the rifle after each shot?
Last thing would be the ammo. You have some federal stuff now, hopefully that will solve your problems. Sometimes a rifle just doesn't do so well with a particular brand of ammo.
Personally, I think you have a rifle issue. Call the guys up over there. That's what they are there for. I don't think it matters one bit that you are not the original owner. You bought their product. If you tell them what is happening and are courteous I think they will treat you right.
j
The only thing I can think of is your cheek weld. I have never used a RISR like you have but that scope looks to be pretty high. Can you get a good cheek weld? Are you coming off the rifle after each shot?
Last thing would be the ammo. You have some federal stuff now, hopefully that will solve your problems. Sometimes a rifle just doesn't do so well with a particular brand of ammo.
Personally, I think you have a rifle issue. Call the guys up over there. That's what they are there for. I don't think it matters one bit that you are not the original owner. You bought their product. If you tell them what is happening and are courteous I think they will treat you right.
j
If having a raised optic mount made a rifle accurate then people would still be throwing their optics on their carry handles.
"Supposedly it is trying to eliminate any possible scope mount issues by just fusing the entire mount right into the upper making 100% reliable while also producing proper cheek weld."
Really? There's no way by raising your glass that high up in the air that you're getting a proper cheek weld unless you've got the face of a horse, and you still have rings which means it's not technically one solid fused piece.
I guess that's not 100% the point I was trying to make so sorry.... other than getting the mount 100% rock solid.. that's it...
BTW, and I'm not saying this to be cocky, but what is the picture of your avatar?
knows better than to disagree with _Nick_, "hides behind JF rilfe"
BTW, and I'm not saying this to be cocky, but what is the picture of your avatar?
knows better than to disagree with _Nick_, "hides behind JF rilfe"
It's the Freemont Bridge Troll. I find it appropriate given the many opinions of me...
ahhh,,, nice..
what do you think of my new and improved signature! what do you think? LOL
what do you think of my new and improved signature! what do you think? LOL
lol... what is funny is I agree is about 95% of the crap you say, but god damn man.... its like you go out of your way to disagree with people!! LOL, good stuff tho.... and then once you find a person which has another point of view than you,,,, for the love of god you don't drop it do you! LOL! hahaha, i'd hate to be your wife,,,, sheessshh. Good stuff man.
if someone's got to be the freemont bridge troll, then it might as well be you. I should almost check out your activity just to see how much you disagree with people... Good stuff man, keep up the good wor,,,,,,,, errrrrr disagreements!
if someone's got to be the freemont bridge troll, then it might as well be you. I should almost check out your activity just to see how much you disagree with people... Good stuff man, keep up the good wor,,,,,,,, errrrrr disagreements!
Maybe I don't get it. But swap the trigger scope whatever method you were using to shoot. Put 5 rounds in each mag of each flavor you have as many targets down range. Shoot a group into each target. Don't follow the shots or adjust your scope. If you don't have a group gun broker.
This way your scope won't be off more than 1/4 moa if the mounts worth anything. And bits quick efficient and less emotionally painful.
Loctite/paint pen/regularly check your gear. A gun falling off your belt is unacceptable
This way your scope won't be off more than 1/4 moa if the mounts worth anything. And bits quick efficient and less emotionally painful.
Loctite/paint pen/regularly check your gear. A gun falling off your belt is unacceptable
Where are you getting that information? Your location says Central Texas, so do you work there or know someone who does? I have no doubt they would take care of me if I called. Just curious about the groups they send with the gun.
I can back up what he said. I do know a former test shooter for larue. He said he only went for groups under 1" but nothing like he or the rifle could do. He said when it was time to test rifles, there were to many to spend time trying for perfect grouping. That rifles completed in batches and all had to be shot quickly and shipped out.
if LT doesnt have an accuracy mount thats really amaturish. considering that i have yet to see an OBR consistantly group what their test targets shows indicates that when testing, they either have the best shooters on earth shooting test groups or that they are using an accuracy mount.
still waiting for an OBR to complete the 5 shot challange shooting better than their test taret or outshoot a DMPS bullbarrel with a trigger job
still waiting for an OBR to complete the 5 shot challange shooting better than their test taret or outshoot a DMPS bullbarrel with a trigger job
Well then stay tuned brother! Pretty sure I will get this one to shoot the 6 group avg at .921 or better. (hopefully...)
Also, please keep in mind this is not a thread about people's opinions on LaRue. Please do not turn this one into the embarrassment of a thread that the "larue to make their own barrels" thread turned into.
Also, please keep in mind this is not a thread about people's opinions on LaRue. Please do not turn this one into the embarrassment of a thread that the "larue to make their own barrels" thread turned into.
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I cant speak for others, but i find it a waste of time and ammo to run a test like that. I know what my obrs will shoot and i am satisfied with that. I have a few groups i could post that were from load development if you need to see them. I assure you they are all well below the test targets i received.
As for the lack of obr representation let me offer this...the snipershide forum is not exactly a friendly place to the larue fanboy. I feel confident that the fanboy types would be the most likely participant for the challenge.
To the op, i live in close proximity to the shop, and i have heard their testing. I have spoken with employees and inquired about how they shoot groups. I know those guns are not shot out of any type of vise. I brought my obr over to the shop one day for them to adjust, so i can attest to their willingnezs to help customers. They will help you. All you have to do is pick up the phone if it comes to that.
bluto, drop by Academy on your way to the range and pick up a box of every flavor of .223 that they have. I had a RRA target upper that didn't care for Fed GMM, but did shoot quite well with a particular Prvi load. Of course, reloading is your best bet for wringing the last bit of accuracy from your gun, but I bet if you try a bunch of different factory loads you'll come across one that the gun likes.
Edit: ss355 I had already typed this before seeing your post. We're on the same page.
In all honesty, I am a little concerned about not being the original owner. I've had other LaRue products including a PredatAR 7.62, and I never needed customer service, but they seemed to be Johnny-on-the-spot about everything. Hopefully this is just an ammo issue. I've only tried ONE quality ammo, and it was Black Hills Match 77gr 5.56. I went back and looked at how that same ammo shot out of my Colt CRP-18, and I was getting 1.5 MOA groups with that rifle. The same rifle that I got a .9 MOA avg out of when doing the 6 group 100 yard challenge using the Black Hills Match 77gr .223. The Colt is Wylde chambered, and now that I've realized the OBR is actually Wylde chambered (and also based on some good advice received in this thread), I'm going to run a bunch of different .223 through it. I have the LaRue recommended FGMM 77gr .223 on the way, and if it won't produce better groups with that, then I'll start considering making the call. I also have FGMM 69gr, Hornady 75gr BTHP, Copper Creek 60gr, and I could load some Hornady 75gr AMAX. I have all of the reloading equipment and components, but I've never actually loaded a round, so i'm not sure how reliable the results would be from shooting it.
I'm also very tempted to get a Geissele SSA-E and replace the two-stage Geissele Combat Trigger. I know that sounds ridiculous, but the SSA-E feels better to me for target shooting.
At this point in my target shooting experience, all I do is shoot for small groups. It's a growing obsession. I don't see the 6 group 100 yard challenge as a waste of time. It helps me assess my skill level and is good practice shooting under some kind of pressure. In the future I would like to compete in different things though. "Tactical" comps as well as F class comps. It's all a helluva lot of fun to me.
In all honesty, I am a little concerned about not being the original owner. I've had other LaRue products including a PredatAR 7.62, and I never needed customer service, but they seemed to be Johnny-on-the-spot about everything. Hopefully this is just an ammo issue. I've only tried ONE quality ammo, and it was Black Hills Match 77gr 5.56. I went back and looked at how that same ammo shot out of my Colt CRP-18, and I was getting 1.5 MOA groups with that rifle. The same rifle that I got a .9 MOA avg out of when doing the 6 group 100 yard challenge using the Black Hills Match 77gr .223. The Colt is Wylde chambered, and now that I've realized the OBR is actually Wylde chambered (and also based on some good advice received in this thread), I'm going to run a bunch of different .223 through it. I have the LaRue recommended FGMM 77gr .223 on the way, and if it won't produce better groups with that, then I'll start considering making the call. I also have FGMM 69gr, Hornady 75gr BTHP, Copper Creek 60gr, and I could load some Hornady 75gr AMAX. I have all of the reloading equipment and components, but I've never actually loaded a round, so i'm not sure how reliable the results would be from shooting it.
I'm also very tempted to get a Geissele SSA-E and replace the two-stage Geissele Combat Trigger. I know that sounds ridiculous, but the SSA-E feels better to me for target shooting.
At this point in my target shooting experience, all I do is shoot for small groups. It's a growing obsession. I don't see the 6 group 100 yard challenge as a waste of time. It helps me assess my skill level and is good practice shooting under some kind of pressure. In the future I would like to compete in different things though. "Tactical" comps as well as F class comps. It's all a helluva lot of fun to me.
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Bluto,
Dont take my comments the wrong way. I think there is a time and place for that kind of stuff and for me it involves a brick of 22lr. Ammo is just too precious right now. If i am shooting anything else it is long range to work on wind calls, which i think is the real art of shooting at distance.
I hope the ammo is your problem. I have a stealth in 556 and load the m855 62 grain bullets for it. Anyone will attest to the marginal quality of those projectiles. With a 5x leupy it will shoot right at 1.5 moa at 100 yds. The idea that a quality match bullet would shoot that poorly in an obr makes me think otherwise. Please let us know how your tests go.
J
Dont take my comments the wrong way. I think there is a time and place for that kind of stuff and for me it involves a brick of 22lr. Ammo is just too precious right now. If i am shooting anything else it is long range to work on wind calls, which i think is the real art of shooting at distance.
I hope the ammo is your problem. I have a stealth in 556 and load the m855 62 grain bullets for it. Anyone will attest to the marginal quality of those projectiles. With a 5x leupy it will shoot right at 1.5 moa at 100 yds. The idea that a quality match bullet would shoot that poorly in an obr makes me think otherwise. Please let us know how your tests go.
J
I agree totally with this guy.
In the past I would fiddle with problem barrels, not anymore.
Send it back. If Larue says it's fine then sell it to some Larue Fantard for big $$$$$$ on ARFcom with a clear conscience...if Larue fixes it and it shoots tight then you are good to go...WIN WIN....
I hear ya. I just haven't run enough different ammo through it to go calling the manufacturer. I'd feel pretty stupid when they asked me,
Larue - "What all have you done with the rifle...?"
Me - "I tried one brand of match grade ammo...and not the kind you recommend for the rifle..."
If it doesn't shoot after me trying these different types, then I'll call them. I still have a bad-ass Colt that can shoot sub MOA, so I can always use the leftover ammo on it.
As far as shooting groups are concerned, I'd rather be doing it at longer distances too. I haven't been paying much attention to my gas gun and have been to my .308 and .243 bolt guns. I'd rather be starting my day at the range at 300 yards and moving up from there, but I haven't done the qualification at my gun club to use the 600 - 1000 range yet. And I haven't done the qualification because I haven't been shooting my own hand loads yet, which I haven't loaded yet because, blah, blah... I saw this LaRue pop up in the firearms section, and I always wanted to get another one, so I figured I'd get this one and sell the Colt. Then it wouldn't shoot, so now I'm paying too much attention to it. But woe is me...I'm still spending time at the range shooting rifles so it's not like it sucks! I'm not taking anyone's comments the wrong way. No worries. Everyone plays with their toys differently!
Larue - "What all have you done with the rifle...?"
Me - "I tried one brand of match grade ammo...and not the kind you recommend for the rifle..."
If it doesn't shoot after me trying these different types, then I'll call them. I still have a bad-ass Colt that can shoot sub MOA, so I can always use the leftover ammo on it.
As far as shooting groups are concerned, I'd rather be doing it at longer distances too. I haven't been paying much attention to my gas gun and have been to my .308 and .243 bolt guns. I'd rather be starting my day at the range at 300 yards and moving up from there, but I haven't done the qualification at my gun club to use the 600 - 1000 range yet. And I haven't done the qualification because I haven't been shooting my own hand loads yet, which I haven't loaded yet because, blah, blah... I saw this LaRue pop up in the firearms section, and I always wanted to get another one, so I figured I'd get this one and sell the Colt. Then it wouldn't shoot, so now I'm paying too much attention to it. But woe is me...I'm still spending time at the range shooting rifles so it's not like it sucks! I'm not taking anyone's comments the wrong way. No worries. Everyone plays with their toys differently!
Make some 24gr varget loads with 69s or 77s if it doesn't group below 1.5 with those stick a fork in it.
I have the AMAX 75's, Varget, Fed small rifle primers, and once fired Winchester and Black Hills brass. I'm going to just nut up and load some rounds. Never done it before.
I didn't realize there were primers that were specifically for AR's. I thought that's what the small rifle primers were for.
75AMAX can't be loaded to mag length, the 75 hornady BTHP can.
75 amax 2.45" 24.3varget was what I used for service rifle. I would try 24varget 2.39" as that is more in line with the book data. Or make a spiff charge of 22.5 that is accurate too but slooooooooooooooow.
First step is to make sure you resized your cases properly with full length sizer die, next step is to trim. Then stick your primer in there (your fed primers are perfectly fine), add powder and a bullet. Voila ammo.
you can get primers made to mil spec hardness, they are cci products. You should be fine with any primer other than federal for your loads. Millions of rounds are loaded with winchester and the primer is not at fault when it gets pierced.
Be cautious and careful with your first reloading session. Do not be distracted and ask for help even for what sounds like a silly question.
Be cautious and careful with your first reloading session. Do not be distracted and ask for help even for what sounds like a silly question.
CCI #41 primers are mil spec primers and made for the AR 15 family because of the possibility of slam fires due to it's floating firing pin. That is all I use in my AR's. CCI # 34's mil spec large rifle primers primers for semi auto with floating firing pins like the M1A, MAS49/56 family and the Garands. Federal primers as noted have soft primers and I would not use them in the afore mentioned rifles. I have personally witness a M1A taken apart because the shooter was using non mil spec primers. It is not a common occurrence but it does happen so why take the chance. Just my two cents.
I've used thousands of cci#400 regular small rifle primers in my AR-15's without a single problem. The key, as with any primer, is to make sure they are seated just below flush.
sooooooo looking forward to your results with the scope swap results with the larue.
sooooooo looking forward to your results with the scope swap results with the larue.
My extensive tests that were planned for Saturday will now be delayed until next Saturday, or possibly one evening next week. NONE of the ammo I ordered got here today. Looks like I'll be spending some quality time with my bolt rifles tomorrow. I'm going to load some rounds for at least one of them tonight.
Reloading question not related to this thread:
For my .243 I have 115 DTAC's from Copper Creek (it's a 7.5 twist). The guy I bought the rifle from told me he had some pressure issues using the same cartridge from Copper Creek, and he's pretty sure it was due to the OAL. He told me to run the OAL gauge and make sure the Copper Creek rounds weren't too long. If they are too long, can I put the loaded round into my press and seat the bullet just a little bit deeper to shorten the OAL?
Question regarding calipers: What is the proper way to use them in order to get a solid measurement? Last night I was trying to measure the once fired brass from the .243 so I could start resizing it. I'm using the Hornady Lock n Load bushings that attach to the calipers to do so. I'm sure it was clamped down (the bushing) tight to the "traveling end" of the caliper. However, my measurements on the same case would vary by +/- .003. How can I make it more precise? I'm using calipers from Cabela's. Is it a quality issue or an operator issue?
Reloading question not related to this thread:
For my .243 I have 115 DTAC's from Copper Creek (it's a 7.5 twist). The guy I bought the rifle from told me he had some pressure issues using the same cartridge from Copper Creek, and he's pretty sure it was due to the OAL. He told me to run the OAL gauge and make sure the Copper Creek rounds weren't too long. If they are too long, can I put the loaded round into my press and seat the bullet just a little bit deeper to shorten the OAL?
Question regarding calipers: What is the proper way to use them in order to get a solid measurement? Last night I was trying to measure the once fired brass from the .243 so I could start resizing it. I'm using the Hornady Lock n Load bushings that attach to the calipers to do so. I'm sure it was clamped down (the bushing) tight to the "traveling end" of the caliper. However, my measurements on the same case would vary by +/- .003. How can I make it more precise? I'm using calipers from Cabela's. Is it a quality issue or an operator issue?
You can re-seat a loaded round deeper just as long as it is NOT crimped and you have good neck tension.
I think you mean hornady headspace gauge on your calipers and not hornady LNL bushings (bushings are used for dies in your press so they are fast/easy to get in and out)..... Anyway, when measuring fired brass (or any brass really) in the hornady headspace gauge, the trick is to lightly spin the brass while in the headspace insert like this while applying closing pressure on the calipers. With practice it will come really easy. Just make sure you don't over do it or you can wear out your headspace insert. It is hard to show in this pic, but I'm lightly spinning the brass with my two fingers. Once you get a consistent reading, you stop spinning the brass:
I think you mean hornady headspace gauge on your calipers and not hornady LNL bushings (bushings are used for dies in your press so they are fast/easy to get in and out)..... Anyway, when measuring fired brass (or any brass really) in the hornady headspace gauge, the trick is to lightly spin the brass while in the headspace insert like this while applying closing pressure on the calipers. With practice it will come really easy. Just make sure you don't over do it or you can wear out your headspace insert. It is hard to show in this pic, but I'm lightly spinning the brass with my two fingers. Once you get a consistent reading, you stop spinning the brass:
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So had my friend whose M1A was destroyed. He was avery neticulous reloader and inspected every round he reloaded for proper seating depth, oal weighed every powder drop etc. etc. As I said it doesn't happen to often but it only has to happen 0nce to trash a 2K M1A National Match. I am sure it happens otherwise why would CCI sell the # 41 and 34 primers clearly matked For Semi Automatic rifles. I also had used CCI 400 for many years but not after I saw the M1A get trashed. After the incident he said "I hsve never seen that happen before".
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I know guys with literally combined 100's of thousands of rounds down range on semi-auto platforms who have only used regular large/small rifle and BR primers and never had a slam fire as a result. And you want to explain to us how a slam fire from a "soft primer" would destroy an M1A? So you're buddy's the first person I've heard having anything but a "mil spec" primer cause a slam fire and the first person I've ever heard of having an M1A destroyed as a result. I call bullshit...
Please start another thread for that discussion and\or argument that it may turn into since nick has about as much tact as a door kicking unit!!! (see the jargon I've learned on snipershide....prolly didn't say It right, but you get the point)
I've been lurking here for a long time and have learned an awful lot about precision shooting from this community. Bluto77, I've shot thousands of rounds through my OBR556, and it simply does not group well with Black Hills ammo for some reason. I've tried 69 and 77 grain 5.56 as well as 77 grain .223, and all seem to group around 2 MOA. I've had outstanding results (5-shot groups consistently sub-MOA @ 100 yards) with FGMM 69 and 77 grain, as well as Hornady TAP 75 grain .223. The new Norma .223 ammunition is also very accurate.
I guarantee that the issue is the ammo, not you.
I guarantee that the issue is the ammo, not you.
I had three issues when went from bolt gun to gas gun the first time and they were, bipod, trigger control, and ammo, in that order. First off I couldn't get a Harris to load b/c for some reason I just can't get the things to keep from slipping out. That's more of a personal problem, so I threw my Atlas on it and my vertical dispersion tightened up and I could stay on target. I was still displeased with throwing rounds left and right and wondered what I was doing wrong. It took me a bit to realize that while my follow-through was fine, I wasn't finishing flat, and was rocking my finger side to side. I hadn't noticed it in dry-fire before b/c it was well hidden by the low mag 10X NF and thick crosshairs. I concluded that it was occurring b/c the pistol grip was narrow and the LOP short with the carbine stock such that my hand was rotated too far CCW (RH). Now I actually build my position such that my palm is rotated kind of under the stock. It feels somewhat awkward. While I was used to the wide flat trigger shoe on my bolt gun, the narrow, contoured AR shoe didn't give me any indication that I was rolling my finger. I still do it occasionally, and I have to dry-fire with a target to check correct trigger control. Next I switched to SW 77gr and the rifle shoots lights out. The groups I've shot since look like sub .25" clover leafs with 1-2 rounds opening them up to about .5-.75 MOA, consistently.
Switch out your lowers to see if there is a positional problem with the OBR lower and you, and switch out your optic/mount. If switching your lower and optic doesn't change anything you've probably removed shooter error, and know that it is an ammo or rifle problem.
Switch out your lowers to see if there is a positional problem with the OBR lower and you, and switch out your optic/mount. If switching your lower and optic doesn't change anything you've probably removed shooter error, and know that it is an ammo or rifle problem.
I usually don't respond to personal attacks form those who are so blind that they will not see. However here is a quote direct from the CCI web site.
Military-style semi-auto rifles seldom have firing pin retraction springs. If care is not used in assembling ammunition, a “slam-fire” can occur before the bolt locks. The military arsenals accomplish this using different techniques and components—including different primer sensitivity specifications—from their commercial counterparts. CCI makes rifle primers for commercial sale that matches military sensitivity specs that reduce the chance of a slam-fire when other factors go out of control*. If you’re reloading for a military semi-auto, look to CCI Military primers.
*Effective slam-fire prevention requires more than special primers. Headspace, chamber condition, firing pin shape and protrusion, bolt velocity, cartridge case condition, and other factors can affect slam-fire potential. Also an article from Fulton Armory.
Slam Fires, Mags & SLEDs; Clint speaks out!
by Clint McKee
In my humble opinion, all self loading, gas operated, mag fed/clip fed rifles should be mag fed or clip fed, as appropriate. Sometimes, it's just so simple.
Why, you ask? Because they were designed to be fed that way!
Gas guns are self loading rifles. Thus, bolt velocities on opening & closing had to be determined. It takes a great deal more energy to strip a cartridge from a clip/mag than when they are hand fed. Try this at home, without live ammo of course. You will notice a significant increase in bolt velocity when letting the bolt "fly home" without a clip/mag, than when loading from same. If too fast, predetonation could occur. If too slow, the bolt may not close. So a balance is designed, in the best case. (The development of the box magazine Garand and then the M14 was delayed as stripping the top cartridge from a fully loaded magazine slowed the bolt too much! Not until John Garand's magazine design for the T31 was adopted, with its single lip arrangement, was the problem solved. --Walt Kuleck)
When we remove the clip/magazine, we change everything! After all, the rifle was designed to feed from a clip/magazine. Bolt velocity on opening & closing changes very significantly--more or less, depending on the rifle design discussed.
I really hate the "it's been that way for a bazillion years" argument. People play golf in thunderstorms all the time. Almost no one gets hurt. But, we've all heard about that cruel lightning strike, if we listen to the news. Is it rare? YES. That's why golfers keep playing in thunderstorms!
But it kills more people than you would think, each & every year.
The M1 Garand, M14/M1A, M1 Carbine & M16/AR15 all have a free floating firing pin. They all dent the primer on loading.
From left to right, an unfired primer, a dimpled primer, and a fired primer.
Indeed, the original Garand firing pin was redesigned to reduce slam fire by lightening the firing pin, even when fed as designed, by a clip. The M14 firing pin was blessed with that design wisdom. But then along came the M16 & it had a similiar problem, also when fed as designed, via magazine (see "Slam Fire, a parable"). It was fixed, again, by reducing the weight of the firing pin.
Use a magazine when loading a rifle designed for a magazine, or a clip when using a rifle designed for an en-bloc clip!
The advice of some experienced shooters when single loading without a clip/mag, calls for easing the op rod about half way or more forward before "lettin' her fly home". Good advice, as bolt velocity will closely replicate that found if loaded via a clip, in a Garand.
These opinions on how to load a Garand without a clip are sage advice. But they know a lot more than most, & most will screw up, & may get hit by lightning!
Further, get your hand out of the way when loading a live round. If any part of your hand is opposing the op rod, & it slam fires, forget about the neurosurgery/pianist career. Your hand will be opened up in the most ugly & horrible fashion possible.
Just my opinion.
--Clint McKee
PS: The story of the M16 firing pin, the .223's primer hardness, et.al., can be found in Stevens & Ezell's "The Black Rifle.". See Slam Fire, the M16 Story.
PS: Here's a true story from a rec.gunner who learned about slam fires the hard way!
"MAS-49/56 with load #06089702 shot 5 single rounds to test, first time to shoot reloads through the MAS49. Cases all looked OK. 2 round loads, rifle double fired, two more rounds, same result. Took rifle apart and dried excess lube from the bolt/carrier/firing pin, as I had liberally lubricated them, and reassembled rifle. loaded two more rounds. Fired normally and cycled action properly. Put three rounds in mag, first round fired as soon as the bolt slammed home, and the next two rounds fired as well. Then took crappy old Syrian ammo (50 rounds) and fired it all w/out mishap ('cept for Syrian hangfires). I chambered a Syrian round in the MAS-49 and then removed it and inspected the primer . There is indeed a small indentation in the primer (see graphic above; ed.); that seems to be enough to sometimes set off the reload primers, and not to bother the military primer. After this put the MAS-49/56 in the case!
"Observations afterwards:
I need to get the CCI hard military LR primers for the MAS-49. I need to doublecheck primer seating depth..."
"(Continued later...) Back on August 8th, I posted regarding my mishaps with inadvertant full auto fire with my handloads in a MAS49/56 rifle. Since that time I have ordered the CCI military hardness primers (5 thousand of them) and found a brick of them at a gunshow while waiting for them to arrive. The brick box of the primers was plain white, with the words '1000 M-34 Primer for 7.62 Cartridge' on the top, and the parent company, Blount, listed on the back. Nowhere does it say CCI. The individual boxes inside are labeled similarly, with the lot number on the front rather than the back. I loaded my Norma brass (50 rounds) and as test, some newly purchased Remington brass. Also, I had 10 rounds of ammo loaded with commercial Winchester primers checked for proper depth. This time I was in a hollow, in the hills of southern Ohio, away from people. The 10 rounds of commercially primed ammo acted as before, with 1 slam fire, and 3 double fires (never more than 2 rounds in the mag at a time). Needless to say, the rounds with the CCI milspec primers worked without a hitch. Over 70 rounds, with no slam fires, no malfunctions of any type."
--Paul Pelfrey
See, we told you so! --Clint & Walt
PPPS: Here's another true story, this from a c-r-ffl-lister:
One of my friends was a careless reloader. He did not set his dies for his M1A with the Wilson case headspace die and he seldom fully resized the brass. The problem magnified itself when a ctg. was loaded with excessive headspace and the bolt did not close all the way. The rifle was a Springfield M1A and it would allow the firing pin to fire the cartridge out of battery. This is a very dangerous condition and the resulting shot was spectacular. The round fired and the case was withdrawn from the chamber before the pressure curve was down to safe levels. The entire head of the cartridge was blown off, blowing his BOONIE HAT 35 feet in the air and destroying the 20 shot magazine. The club's rules do not allow shooters or spectators to be on the range without eye protection. This man's eyes were saved by the shooting glasses but he looked as if he had the chicken pox.
He had to have small pieces of brass removed from his face and he would probably won the LA. state championship if he would not have had this happen. Springfield Armory gave him a new receiver but could do nothing for the flinchitis he got from this incident.
I too, have seen disasterous results from careless shooting and reloading practices. Whenever I get a new M1-M1A-M14 in the shop, I put a primed case into the chamber and see how much the bolt may be opened and still fire the primer. If it is too much, the rifle should be sent to the factory for repairs.
Most people don't think about the rear of the receiver (receiver bridge, ed.) blocking the firing pin when the rifle is out of battery. We all should inspect and test our M1-M1A rifles for this defect.
--Doug Bowser
And yet another rec.gunner chimes in:
Clint,
Well, after my first offhand match I found out how to make a Garand slam fire by single loading. I then read your articles and proceeded to buy a SLED for both myself and my wife. Well, we finally got a chance to go Mariotsville this weekend and guess what, no slamfires! I fired over 40 rounds through my Garand and didn't have a single one!
Again, kudos to you and Walt for the outstanding site and all of the educational material you put in it! Maybe we'll see about getting an M1A from you if we can find a good Springfield receiver at a reasonable price, as we don't make THAT much! HA!
Anyway, again THANKS!
--Brian Hall
A few M1A receivers from bing photos.
URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/SlamFire/media/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/Slamfires/DSCN1945TestReceivers.jpg.html]
If you don't believe it that's your problem. I'll say no more.
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Personal attack? Lol... I haven't even begun to attack you sunshine. First you're NOT supposed to top load a semi-auto which the in first story he's clearly doing and even having a "mil spec" hardened primer could still have a slam fire as a result, but I'm sure you knew that right. The next is discussing a french semi-auto which isn't even remotely related to an AR-15 and could barely relate itself to an M1A. Another one of your stories the damaged M1A was not the result of just a slide fire but of the entire cartridge being faulty that couldn't even battery. That idiot also was again top loading a semi. So again explain to us "blind" folk exactly how just a slam fire could destroy an M1A?
I started a new thread so you guys could discuss the slam fires. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...mall-rifle-primer-slam-fires.html#post2597970 I am respectfully asking that you not derail my thread with arguing/bickering/etc.
I look forward to reading more information about the original topic of the thread. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
I look forward to reading more information about the original topic of the thread. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
so bluto, have you done anything yet with your OBR to get it ready for testing? like swapping out the scope already type stuff? too bad about waiting another week & your ammo not coming in yet... I'm really looking forward to you getting your new OBR rifle back on track.
Just make sure you keep track of that fired factory ammo out of which rifle so you know what the shoulder bump is going to be when it is time to re-size it.
Just make sure you keep track of that fired factory ammo out of which rifle so you know what the shoulder bump is going to be when it is time to re-size it.
Looks like the LaRue was having an ammo problem. 1.06 AVG with .223 ammo instead of 5.56!!!
I had exactly 30 rounds of Black Hills Match 77gr .223 left, so I used them to shoot the 6 group 100 yard challenge with the LaRue OBR 5.56. The only thing I had shot through the LaRue previously was the Black Hills OTM 77gr 5.56. Thank you to those that suggested trying .223 ammo. I can't wait to see how much smaller the groups get next week when I have the FGMM 77gr and FGMM 69 gr. All I did was change the ammo today. I left the scope mounted right where it was. I did have another one on standby in case I saw no improvement at all on the first couple of groups, in which case I was going to swap out the scope to see if the last 4 groups would improve, but I didn't have to do that. I was sub MOA right off the bat! I ended up with a 6 group avg of 1.06. SO F'N CLOSE!!! Had it not been for the human error caused flyer in group 3 that opened up that one to 1.633, the average would've easily been sub MOA. When I get the FGMM next week I'm still going to shoot 3 groups with the same scope/mount with each bullet weight, and then I'll change the scope and move the mount so that it is directly over the top of the action and see if that helps even more. And once I get some handloads going, I fully expect this rifle to get to .75 MOA or lower.
The first picture is of the entire target with all 6 groups. Note the 1.06 average. Also note, I accidentally shot 6 rounds into group 4, so I only had 4 rounds for group 6. I don't think this had a significant impact on the overall average, but it unfortunately disqualifies it from Elfster's official 6 group challenge. That's ok though, I'll have some better targets to post in that thread after next weekend! Also note THE DEAD NUTS BULLSEYE IN GROUP 6!!!!
The second picture is of the smallest group.
The third picture is what prompted me to keep the same scope and mount on the rifle. That's a 5 shot group at 50 yards. I had taken the scope off to make sure the mount for the alternative glass was high enough, so I had to put it back on. After putting it on the exact same spot (it's a one piece) I went to the 50 yard line to zero it back in. Those are the only 5 shots I took. However, I use Colt Match 77gr 5.56, which is supposed to be the exact same ammo as the Black Hills OTM 5.56 (has a BH logo on the box and says, "Loaded By Black Hills"). I guess this was a better lot because the results were obviously better. I didn't measure it, but the orange circle sticker is 1". I shot 3 more groups with it, and they averaged 1.29, so better than the BH, but still not good.
The fourth picture is of six groups shot by my buddy and me with my Colt CRP-18 using the Black Hills OTM 5.56 that shot so poorly in the LaRue. The Colt CRP-18 had a six group .978 average (pictured in OP pg 1) using the BH 77gr .223 that the LaRue shot the 1.06 average with today.
I had exactly 30 rounds of Black Hills Match 77gr .223 left, so I used them to shoot the 6 group 100 yard challenge with the LaRue OBR 5.56. The only thing I had shot through the LaRue previously was the Black Hills OTM 77gr 5.56. Thank you to those that suggested trying .223 ammo. I can't wait to see how much smaller the groups get next week when I have the FGMM 77gr and FGMM 69 gr. All I did was change the ammo today. I left the scope mounted right where it was. I did have another one on standby in case I saw no improvement at all on the first couple of groups, in which case I was going to swap out the scope to see if the last 4 groups would improve, but I didn't have to do that. I was sub MOA right off the bat! I ended up with a 6 group avg of 1.06. SO F'N CLOSE!!! Had it not been for the human error caused flyer in group 3 that opened up that one to 1.633, the average would've easily been sub MOA. When I get the FGMM next week I'm still going to shoot 3 groups with the same scope/mount with each bullet weight, and then I'll change the scope and move the mount so that it is directly over the top of the action and see if that helps even more. And once I get some handloads going, I fully expect this rifle to get to .75 MOA or lower.
The first picture is of the entire target with all 6 groups. Note the 1.06 average. Also note, I accidentally shot 6 rounds into group 4, so I only had 4 rounds for group 6. I don't think this had a significant impact on the overall average, but it unfortunately disqualifies it from Elfster's official 6 group challenge. That's ok though, I'll have some better targets to post in that thread after next weekend! Also note THE DEAD NUTS BULLSEYE IN GROUP 6!!!!
The second picture is of the smallest group.
The third picture is what prompted me to keep the same scope and mount on the rifle. That's a 5 shot group at 50 yards. I had taken the scope off to make sure the mount for the alternative glass was high enough, so I had to put it back on. After putting it on the exact same spot (it's a one piece) I went to the 50 yard line to zero it back in. Those are the only 5 shots I took. However, I use Colt Match 77gr 5.56, which is supposed to be the exact same ammo as the Black Hills OTM 5.56 (has a BH logo on the box and says, "Loaded By Black Hills"). I guess this was a better lot because the results were obviously better. I didn't measure it, but the orange circle sticker is 1". I shot 3 more groups with it, and they averaged 1.29, so better than the BH, but still not good.
The fourth picture is of six groups shot by my buddy and me with my Colt CRP-18 using the Black Hills OTM 5.56 that shot so poorly in the LaRue. The Colt CRP-18 had a six group .978 average (pictured in OP pg 1) using the BH 77gr .223 that the LaRue shot the 1.06 average with today.
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That is fantastic info bluto! Nice to see it coming together. Jesus, you just might have a shooter on your hands then if you start reloading for it. Damn that one flier! id still post it on the shootout thread even tho you will not make the boards
id still post it on the shootout thread even tho you will not make the boardsLooks like the LaRue was having an ammo problem.
I had exactly 30 rounds of Black Hills Match 77gr .223 left, so I used them to shoot the 6 group 100 yard challenge with the LaRue OBR 5.56. The only thing I had shot through the LaRue previously was the Black Hills OTM 77gr 5.56. Thank you to those that suggested trying .223 ammo. I can't wait to see how much smaller the groups get next week when I have the FGMM 77gr and FGMM 69 gr. All I did was change the ammo today. I left the scope mounted right where it was. I did have another one on standby in case I saw no improvement at all on the first couple of groups, in which case I was going to swap out the scope to see if the last 4 groups would improve, but I didn't have to do that. I was sub MOA right off the bat! I ended up with a 6 group avg of 1.06. SO F'N CLOSE!!! Had it not been for the human error caused flyer in group 3 that opened up that one to 1.633, the average would've easily been sub MOA. When I get the FGMM next week I'm still going to shoot 3 groups with the same scope/mount with each bullet weight, and then I'll change the scope and move the mount so that it is directly over the top of the action and see if that helps even more. And once I get some handloads going, I fully expect this rifle to get to .75 MOA or lower.
The first picture is of the entire target with all 6 groups. Note the 1.06 average. Also note, I accidentally shot 6 rounds into group 4, so I only had 4 rounds for group 6. I don't think this had a significant impact on the overall average, but it unfortunately disqualifies it from Elfster's official 6 group challenge. That's ok though, I'll have some better targets to post in that thread after next weekend! Also note THE DEAD NUTS BULLSEYE IN GROUP 6!!!!
The second picture is of the smallest group.
The third picture is what prompted me to keep the same scope and mount on the rifle. That's a 5 shot group at 50 yards. I had taken the scope off to make sure the mount for the alternative glass was high enough, so I had to put it back on. After putting it on the exact same spot (it's a one piece) I went to the 50 yard line to zero it back in. Those are the only 5 shots I took. However, I use Colt Match 77gr 5.56, which is supposed to be the exact same ammo as the Black Hills OTM 5.56 (has a BH logo on the box and says, "Loaded By Black Hills"). I guess this was a better lot because the results were obviously better. I didn't measure it, but the orange circle sticker is 1". I shot 3 more groups with it, and they averaged 1.29, so better than the BH, but still not good.
The fourth picture is of six groups shot by my buddy and me with my Colt CRP-18 using the Black Hills OTM 5.56 that shot so poorly in the LaRue. The Colt CRP-18 had a six group .978 average (pictured in OP pg 1) using the BH 77gr .223 that the LaRue shot the 1.06 average with today.
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I'm confident I have a shooter on my hands! I haven't even used the ammo LaRue recommends yet, and based on many of the responses here saying their OBR loves 69 gr or 77gr FGMM, I'm thinking I'm well on my way. Especially once I change the scope mount so that it's only on top of the action, handload to find just the right cartridge, and practice, practice, practice. Keep in mind, I just changed my shooting style quite a bit based on advice received in one of my other threads from well respected members on this board. Mainly, I'm squaring both shoulders up to the target now instead of holding them at a 45 degree angle and putting my offhand on the rail to control recoil. I'm also focusing on putting my core weight into the rifle instead of "muscling it" with my right shoulder, and that's made a huge difference. The flyer in group 3 happened when I didn't really put any weight forward at all because I had a "perfect" line up on the bullseye with the rifle resting on the front and back bags so I didn't want to mess that up, and I just pressed the trigger with it barely against my shoulder. I'm assuming the flyer occurred because I did not effectively control the recoil impulse?
Anyway, I can't wait to get into the top of the leader board on your thread! Also, if it keeps progressing this way, I will have a Colt CRP-18 for sale soon. I'm going to wait until I've tried all of the other ammo in it too and post the pics, but it's a shooter as well.
Anyway, I can't wait to get into the top of the leader board on your thread! Also, if it keeps progressing this way, I will have a Colt CRP-18 for sale soon. I'm going to wait until I've tried all of the other ammo in it too and post the pics, but it's a shooter as well.
Relieved that it was an ammo issue Bluto! You don't see too many rifles that throw 3" groups that aren't f'd up (or a scope for that matter). I don't think I will ever purchase any BH 77 grain OTM for my stealth. Good lord.....
Keep us posted on the FGMM ammo when you shoot it!
j
Keep us posted on the FGMM ammo when you shoot it!
j
Damn right I am!!! And did you see how the same ammo shot in my Colt? Those groups, when I was shooting at least, were nearly .75 MOA bigger than they were when using the Black Hills 77gr .223.
It should be noted, the rifle was throwing 3" groups when my buddy was the shooter!
Everything you just said here sounds 100% spot on and very logical. Sounds like you're on the right track and you have it all figured out. The one thing i found out about rifle accuracy is its not just one thing, it is a collection of many different aspects about your rifle such as using the correct ammo, scope mount, bipod or bag, blah blah blah... It all comes together in the end. Glad it is working out for ya and that rifle will be a laser once you start reloading. Like I've always said about shooting groups at 100yards. It is 40% rifle, 40% shooter, and 20% ammo.... The further out the target the more the shooter % increases and where artform and science come together.
Bluto, I think you're shooting tighter than you're giving yourself credit for.
I'm not sure I'm interpreting your second photo correctly.
To get your group spread you take outside-to-outside distance (of the soot or grease rings) of your farthest shots AND SUBTRACT A BULLET DIAMETER. This gives you the spread between bullet centers.
I'm fairly sure you're going to like how the 69s group. Even better (for 100 and 200 yards) may be flat-base benchrest bullets specifically built for itty-bitty groups from bolt action rifles.
Boat-tails will trump flat-base bullets once you start talking farther ranges and longer time-of-flight affected by wind.
Good shootin', Tex. let us know once you get your Fed 69s.
I'm not sure I'm interpreting your second photo correctly.
To get your group spread you take outside-to-outside distance (of the soot or grease rings) of your farthest shots AND SUBTRACT A BULLET DIAMETER. This gives you the spread between bullet centers.
I'm fairly sure you're going to like how the 69s group. Even better (for 100 and 200 yards) may be flat-base benchrest bullets specifically built for itty-bitty groups from bolt action rifles.
Boat-tails will trump flat-base bullets once you start talking farther ranges and longer time-of-flight affected by wind.
Good shootin', Tex. let us know once you get your Fed 69s.
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