Ghost-Gun Company Raided by Federal Agents
- Thread starter Animal357
- Start date
Which would fit right in with Giffords group not getting their way last week
Do you guys think they picked him just because?
No, because in the story the guy from ghost guns basically said fuck you to Gifgord and that she was infringing on his and Americans rights.
Boom here comes the ATF.
I won't link the story because it's from a liberal rag,but if you DuckDuck search it you'll see it's THE ONLY STORY
They should be careful who's door they go kicking in......
Anyway, I asked a few pages back: did P80 have a how to video posted on their site/IG/FB? No different than the recent C&D and hassling directed towards solvent trap companies. Sell your parts, fine. Sell your parts, ALL the parts, with a finishing jig, and some photos or videos of the "how-to" part, BOOM: constructive intent.
Anyway, I asked a few pages back: did P80 have a how to video posted on their site/IG/FB? No different than the recent C&D and hassling directed towards solvent trap companies. Sell your parts, fine. Sell your parts, ALL the parts, with a finishing jig, and some photos or videos of the "how-to" part, BOOM: constructive intent.
My final thoughts on this subject:
1. The ATF reasonably believes that P80 violated the intent and spirit of the GCA and Brady Act with their build kits. It is critical to understand that this belief is reasonable (not necessarily true/correct) because the intent and spirit of the law is what matters.
2. That the GCA and Brady Act are contemptible is irrelevant concerning the ATFs actions. The problem is that the American People somehow got it into their heads that these laws were a good idea, now the Executive Branch is bound to uphold them.
3. @CrabsandFootball 's point is, if I may be so forward as to put in my own words, is that regardless how righteous and honorable one's cause is, if the virtue of courage is not paired with that of prudence then the cause cannot be championed effectively. History is littered with examples of vain martyrdom. He believes the 2A cause would be better served if the company continued to pump 80% frames into the wild instead of being bold with the build kits.
4. I disagree with this point as I don't see how proliferation of unserialized handguns helps the cause, considering that handguns truly are the self defence weapons that many people think the end all and be all of 2A. P80s bold action I reckon will have more consequence.
Crabs also said, quite rightly, that in civil disobedience the first one through the door is bloodied and for the movement to succeed, there must be a wave behind them. I believe at this point there is indeed a wave of people at the ready. The only way however to change people's minds, to strengthen the wave, is through marketing and propaganda. We can have the best ideas in the world but they won't mean shit if we fail at persuasion. That's where I'll be focusing my efforts.
The fact is, whilst so many 2A supporters are out there prepping and stocking up, the Democrats are busy employing the best behavioral psychologists, marketing experts and scientists in the world for the express purpose of convincing our neighbors and communities that it is we who are the idiots.
1. The ATF reasonably believes that P80 violated the intent and spirit of the GCA and Brady Act with their build kits. It is critical to understand that this belief is reasonable (not necessarily true/correct) because the intent and spirit of the law is what matters.
2. That the GCA and Brady Act are contemptible is irrelevant concerning the ATFs actions. The problem is that the American People somehow got it into their heads that these laws were a good idea, now the Executive Branch is bound to uphold them.
3. @CrabsandFootball 's point is, if I may be so forward as to put in my own words, is that regardless how righteous and honorable one's cause is, if the virtue of courage is not paired with that of prudence then the cause cannot be championed effectively. History is littered with examples of vain martyrdom. He believes the 2A cause would be better served if the company continued to pump 80% frames into the wild instead of being bold with the build kits.
4. I disagree with this point as I don't see how proliferation of unserialized handguns helps the cause, considering that handguns truly are the self defence weapons that many people think the end all and be all of 2A. P80s bold action I reckon will have more consequence.
Crabs also said, quite rightly, that in civil disobedience the first one through the door is bloodied and for the movement to succeed, there must be a wave behind them. I believe at this point there is indeed a wave of people at the ready. The only way however to change people's minds, to strengthen the wave, is through marketing and propaganda. We can have the best ideas in the world but they won't mean shit if we fail at persuasion. That's where I'll be focusing my efforts.
The fact is, whilst so many 2A supporters are out there prepping and stocking up, the Democrats are busy employing the best behavioral psychologists, marketing experts and scientists in the world for the express purpose of convincing our neighbors and communities that it is we who are the idiots.
OK, so someone was raided and the P80 kits (note the plural). How many kits were seized? That TFB logo is covering some important info. And who was the individual? There are a lot of unanswered questions. If it was Joe Blow who bought two kits, OK, this is a worry. BUt the flip side if that person bought a hundred kits, and is running a business in selling the kits and helping the new owner make their gun, I can see why the ATF is interested.
It seems pretty clear that they are accusing them of selling unserialized firearms with the belief being that the kit is now a firearm rather than not a firearm. Seems like a bullshit leap to me, but you are putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable. The question is why do we have a system under which an agency can determine something is a firearm without an act of congress.
Hi,
This situation really is not as complex as it is being made to be.
1. IF you are in a business in which you had to get written documentation from the ATF to sell abc product the you most definitely are in a business that cannot deviate from what you said you were selling. (Doesn't matter IF said business should even need such permission. We all agree it should not but real world says otherwise or nobody would be abiding by magazine restrictions in how many States??)
2. All the Shall Not Be Infringed rebuttals to the ATF are ABSOLUTELY VALID but that is not the answer until we start posting up NFA items without stamps to go with them. Until then..like it or not...YOU/ME have allowed the ATF and .Gov to long ago infringe.
3. Those that say the "kit" does not change firearm definition vs non firearm definition and the intention of the seller/buyer...
a. While in black and white that is absolutely correct.
b. Show me a company that will ship you a 9" AR upper and an AR lower in same shipment.
b1. There is a reason they do not even risk that BS.....
We can discuss reversing the overreaching .Gov
We can discuss reversing all the infringements that are already being abound to every single day by ALL of us.
But those should not be done in a way that brings more resistance to us, it should be done in a way to increase our base.
As I have mentioned before..we are our own worst enemy. The firearms industry is absolutely maple syrup slow on any expansion of its' base. Large portion of the industry feel that firearm ownership is like the modern day fox hunting club...only the selected.
We talk shit about women, gays, lesbians, blacks, Sikhs, etc etc when it comes to firearm ownership and usage.
When maybe, just maybe we should be welcoming and assisting those. Because bottom line is numbers are numbers. Stop focusing on changing minds from the top and start focusing on changing support base from the bottom.
Sincerely,
Theis
This situation really is not as complex as it is being made to be.
1. IF you are in a business in which you had to get written documentation from the ATF to sell abc product the you most definitely are in a business that cannot deviate from what you said you were selling. (Doesn't matter IF said business should even need such permission. We all agree it should not but real world says otherwise or nobody would be abiding by magazine restrictions in how many States??)
2. All the Shall Not Be Infringed rebuttals to the ATF are ABSOLUTELY VALID but that is not the answer until we start posting up NFA items without stamps to go with them. Until then..like it or not...YOU/ME have allowed the ATF and .Gov to long ago infringe.
3. Those that say the "kit" does not change firearm definition vs non firearm definition and the intention of the seller/buyer...
a. While in black and white that is absolutely correct.
b. Show me a company that will ship you a 9" AR upper and an AR lower in same shipment.
b1. There is a reason they do not even risk that BS.....
We can discuss reversing the overreaching .Gov
We can discuss reversing all the infringements that are already being abound to every single day by ALL of us.
But those should not be done in a way that brings more resistance to us, it should be done in a way to increase our base.
As I have mentioned before..we are our own worst enemy. The firearms industry is absolutely maple syrup slow on any expansion of its' base. Large portion of the industry feel that firearm ownership is like the modern day fox hunting club...only the selected.
We talk shit about women, gays, lesbians, blacks, Sikhs, etc etc when it comes to firearm ownership and usage.
When maybe, just maybe we should be welcoming and assisting those. Because bottom line is numbers are numbers. Stop focusing on changing minds from the top and start focusing on changing support base from the bottom.
Sincerely,
Theis
Shit like this really puts me on the fence.
Part of me says they’re not selling firearms because a firearm kit is not a manufactured firearm even if they sell you everything to put it together. The same part of me is also against any sort of infringement of 2A.
In the same regard I also have no issue with background checks because they do help to keep guns out of the wrong hands and I understand that literally any convicted felon or gang banger can acquire one of these kits and build themselves a gun with a drill and some punches.
To me this kind of stuff falls under “common sense gun control” which I am 100% ok with so long as they leave it at this. Unfortunately they won’t and never will, so fuck them.
Part of me says they’re not selling firearms because a firearm kit is not a manufactured firearm even if they sell you everything to put it together. The same part of me is also against any sort of infringement of 2A.
In the same regard I also have no issue with background checks because they do help to keep guns out of the wrong hands and I understand that literally any convicted felon or gang banger can acquire one of these kits and build themselves a gun with a drill and some punches.
To me this kind of stuff falls under “common sense gun control” which I am 100% ok with so long as they leave it at this. Unfortunately they won’t and never will, so fuck them.
im not sure where youve been hanging out....but i can assure you that is not the general consensus....
the only time ive ever seen anyone talk shit about a "minority" group is in regards to the NFAC retards who keep shooting themselves.....and that really has nothing to do with them being black, and more to do with them being communist morons.... who keep shooting themselves
im sure if you look on the internet long enough you can find some Troglodyte who still thinks hes living in the 1930s....
but i really dont think if someone made a post "im a black/gay/sihk who loves guns" that they would receive any shit over it.
So, because we haven’t actually covered anything about the law, I did a bit of digging and found this. Note, this is the actual law, not an interpretation of the law... I have bolded the part most pertinent to the
18 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2012 Edition
Title 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS
Sec. 921 - Definitions
From the U.S. Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov
§921. Definitions
(a) As used in this chapter—
(1) The term “person” and the term “whoever” include any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company.
(2) The term “interstate or foreign commerce” includes commerce between any place in a State and any place outside of that State, or within any possession of the United States (not including the Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia, but such term does not include commerce between places within the same State but through any place outside of that State. The term “State” includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States (not including the Canal Zone).
(3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
What is ultimately at question is “does the BBS kit constitute something that may readily be converted to expel a projectile?”
Congress enacts the law. The executive, of which the ATF is a part, executed the laws. Unfortunately, Congress passes intentionally ambiguous laws that must be interpreted. That falls on the judiciary. But, to get them to do that, we need a trial.
18 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2012 Edition
Title 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS
Sec. 921 - Definitions
From the U.S. Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov
§921. Definitions
(a) As used in this chapter—
(1) The term “person” and the term “whoever” include any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company.
(2) The term “interstate or foreign commerce” includes commerce between any place in a State and any place outside of that State, or within any possession of the United States (not including the Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia, but such term does not include commerce between places within the same State but through any place outside of that State. The term “State” includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States (not including the Canal Zone).
(3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
What is ultimately at question is “does the BBS kit constitute something that may readily be converted to expel a projectile?”
Congress enacts the law. The executive, of which the ATF is a part, executed the laws. Unfortunately, Congress passes intentionally ambiguous laws that must be interpreted. That falls on the judiciary. But, to get them to do that, we need a trial.
Isn't that the point of the kit? To convert with minimal effort a piece of plastic to house the rest of the parts to make a gun? Isn't everything included in the kit too? So someone can order a kit, and without any additional tools or materials have a gun without having a background check? It is a little troubling that someone who would otherwise be prohibited from owning a gun can with an online order have everything they need to get a gun. And they are doing so. TFB yesterday had in their article of two incidences of P80's products used to kill Americans by otherwise prohibited people.
Laws like this are fine and dandy until you realize it’s only time before you end up on the prohibited list.. does anyone remember that marine who had his guns taken away for protesting outside a mayors house and saying he will defend himself if attacked by antifa? Did he ever get his guns back? Since he is innocent till proven guilty and all, right?
wait.... So let me get this straight. We are upset about a company selling "unfinished" firearms in the mail to avoid an FFL? is that about the just of it? I actually had look up wtf an "80% lower and P80" was. I am no fan of the ATF but this seem completely asinine ? WTF would you want an 80% anything? arent lowers like 65-150$ Lets be honest here, i would venture to guess that the majority of the sales were to folks completely legal in their capacity to purchase a plane old glock or whatever flavor they wanted. What am I missing here? 
I understand that, and so do I. But I would not consider drilling 3 holes with a drill press really making anything. It really seems to me and IDK much about it but they skirted the law to avoid being labeled a manufacture of firearms for financial reasoning. But again wtf do I know im just a dumb ol' plow boy
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Milling out the trigger pocket to correct spec is a lot more involved than drilling the 3 holes for the trigger pins and safety. These 80% lowers are solid aluminum where all the fire control components go and have to milled out to correct tiered depth and width.
im sorry freedom is so "troubling" to you.
does Home depot also "trouble you".....i can walk in, buy $20 of supplies, and make a 12Gauge shotgun using nothing but a hand drill.....hell, i could arm 30 of my homies for what i can buy a P80 pistol for.
fuck i can make a pipe bomb even easier.....hell, i could have 70-80 pipe bombs for what i would pay for a P80
should the ATF raid Home Depot because prohibited people may get their hands on guns?
I'm pretty sure it is illegal for prohibited people to finish their 80% lowers, no matter what kit they came with. I wonder if it being illegal stops them? Thinking no.
For me, the P80 was a way to get a polymer framed handgun with Glock reliability, but with a noticeably different grip angle and feel. I knew nothing about them until a friend showed me his home built P80. Both of us are lawful gun owners and CC permit holders. I've always preferred 1911's, but the P80 frame had a much better feel to me than a factory Glock. I built two of them, I was able to add custom touches during the build rather than buy a Glock and add on parts after the fact. Not to mention the fact that is was fun as hell to build them up. To prepare the frame properly, a lot of time and effort went into polishing surfaces and drilling holes. I just don't see a felon who wants to commit crimes with one of these going through the trouble, when most likely, they can procure a factory handgun by so many other, much easier means. Just my .02¢
And thinking like that is exactly why the 2A has been demoted to barely a second class right, more like a privilege if the government allows it.
Criminals have never had a problem getting guns, in fact in many states criminals can get guns quicker, easier and cheaper than law abiding citizens.
The only people Not getting guns because of these evil laws are the law abiding citizens.
Who would care if "Felons" or "Gang Bangers" carried guns, if the good people were not such weak sheep.
IF everybody knew it was their duty to carry effective arms on them at all times, as in a good pistol openly carried and a military carbine on their back, criminals would find that having a gun gives them no advantage and actually makes people more likely to shoot them.
The problem with "criminals and guns" is the result of disarming the good people.
^^^This^^^
My son and I built a solid body electric guitar using a kit. He threw out most of the internal parts that came with the kit and purchased premium parts. The assembly and finishing of the guitar took many hours if time that alone would probably have paid for a top line Gibson. The end result turned out great and he prefers that axe over all of his other more expensive ones.
I bed and inlet my own rifles and do whatever other work I think needs to be done that doesn’t require a lathe. I install triggers and other upgrade parts in all my toys. I work on my car and truck too. Mostly because I enjoy the fruits of my labors and the process of doing so.
As a kid, I bought a Flintlock rifle kit from Dixie Gun Works and built my own flintlock rifle, including browning the barrel and making a new stock from birds eye maple because I didn’t like the plain one that came in the kit.
I could purchase all of these things outright, but where’s the fun in that?
As I said earlier, the majority of criminals who are prohibited from owning a gun do not care and buy one on the street as soon as they can. While I’m sure there are exceptions, most are not buying kits online that can be traced to them anyway and taking the time to build one at home.
If by freedom you mean your local drug dealers with records should have guns, cause as you say, Freedom
Or the MS-13 illegal immigrant bringing his brand of criminal activity should have unobstructed access to guns...
Or ISIS 'refugee' that is advocating for a global Islamic caliphate and thinks overthrowing the US government is a good start...
Or the sex offender that is eyeballing you family and knows capping you cosplaytriot ass first means easier time having their way with your loved ones...
Glad to see you think standing with those people is more important than the majority of America.
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Safes are not 100% secure. With enough time and determination every gun safe is crack-able. But even the cheapest safe is better than leaving the door wide open and a neon sign pointing to it for thieves to loot. And I think that is what got the ATF's attention. What is the difference between a complete gun and and complete gun kit?
And none of those people have the slightest problem getting guns illegally. Usually cheaper, easier and quicker than law abiding citizens in states with "gun safety" laws.
If you think that some stupid law about please don't have some piece of machinery without a little permission slip from some government stooge, is going to be any kind of a road block to someone who already has decided to totally ignore laws saying please don't murder, rape and kidnap people, then you are one of the sheep who loves the firm hand of tyranny to make them feel safe.
Your ideas are exactly why we have lost so many freedoms.
The government says, please give up your freedom because we promise we'll make you safe....
Then the government takes your right and doesn't protect you, instead dedicating all their time to harassing you and putting the boots to you because you are a soft easy target, while often letting the criminals slide on by. As in look at current NYC, where the Mayor's SS troops spend time busting Jewish weddings and funerals while rapists, robbers and violent criminals are back out on the street just as fast as they can arrive at the police station.
I really don't see what you are trying to argue. Whatever it is, pick a different analogy.
Spend about $30 at your local hardware store for a functioning double barrel quick reload 12ga short barrel shotgun....
AND it takes less intelligence and ability then completing an 80% lower.
What the people were selling was specifically within the letter of the law.
What is this BS about "spirit of the law" when has the ATF or any stupid government agency ever agreed that "spirit of the law" was a valid defense when you are accused of doing something outside the specific letter of the law?
Glad to see that preventing pedophiles, ISIS militants, drug dealers, and illegal immigrants from owning a gun is equal to socialism.
But getting called a socialist from the cosplaytriots is the same as getting called a cuck from the InCels.
Wait a minute, the same people who call anyone with an opposing opinion here a socialist are also the same people calling others cucks... I'm seeing something here...
But getting called a socialist from the cosplaytriots is the same as getting called a cuck from the InCels.
Wait a minute, the same people who call anyone with an opposing opinion here a socialist are also the same people calling others cucks... I'm seeing something here...
Plenty of these cretins have called me a commie, but that doesn't mean that your arguments are well formed or that they are convincing in the least. It is possible that both they are idiots (some of them) and that you can't effectively support or even explain what you are trying to get at.
Yeah, because it would likely be illegal with the whole constructive intent bullshit. You could literally assemble it and break the law on receipt.
Little different when you have non functioning components that have to be finished, first.
You are making the argument for your opponent.
You want the government to protect you from the criminals but they don't. Evidenced by your argument that the government needs to keep weapons away from the criminals. How about we keep the criminals away from society? Also.... An armed society is a polite society.
Here is a good question for the "Shall not be infringed" crowd. What if Maj Hassan, the Ft Hood shooter, demands he has a right to have a gun right now, even with him in prison, would they support him getting a gun? The minute they say he shouldn't ( and he is an Al Qaeda asshole that should be dead by now for his crimes IMHO) then they are are now allowing infringements on Maj Hassan's rights. So which is it? And where is the line? Can illegals who want to subvert or destroy America be allowed to have guns? How about those 'Autonomous Zones' on Seattle and Portland? Fox News is reporting the new one in Portland is stocking up on arms. Should ANTIFA and BLM have arms to resist law enforcement?
The point is as soon as someone says 'Hey, maybe that guy should not have a gun', then infringement has started. And then we can start a discussion on how legal gun owners can enjoy our hobby and keep those that want to harm others from having guns can start.
A little bit of light reading for anyone supporting “common sense gun control”. This site was started by John Lott jr who is the author of several books diving deep into gun violence statistics and showing that gun control everywhere is detrimental to the safety of the populace
crimeresearch.org
Crime Prevention Research Center
Crime Prevention Research Center conducts research on laws regulating the ownership or use of guns, crime, and public safety.
crimeresearch.org
Is Hassan a free man? Now go and read the Federalist Papers and see what the founders said about free men having arms.
Yes BLM and Antifa fags should have arms. Until they commit a crime and are incarcerated they are free men.
Are you saying that the government should take people's rights because they MAY commit a crime?
How about they take your driver's license because you MAY drink and drive?
I wouldn't consider myself part of the "shall not be infringed" crowd. I'd say I try to understand any issue as it comes. But to speak for myself, I agree with the fellow above who says that you should never be taking rights away from people because of what you think they might do, or what their motives might be. I don't think violent criminals should have guns. Most importantly, I think the most important aspect of legislation is to make sure that a law effects only the intended targets, and has no collateral damage. This last point is, I think, the biggest difference between somebody like me, and apparently somebody like you. I don't think you need to break a few eggs and all.
And the flip side is how do you stop those that intend to behave badly? Or have a recorded history of crime (AKA felony convictions)? Where is the line between allowing the good guys to buy a gun and grey market ideas that make it to easy for a bad guy to get guns they shouldn't have? Or those the try to create loopholes to get around existing laws? Or technology outpacing the ability of Congress to keep up? Somewhere there is a line. And we as gun owners can either be a part of the debate and shape laws to fit our views, or go scream 'NO' like the NRA and then cry when a law is passed and we all lose.
I guess that you’re right. It could most easily be read as ‘How to cook a FUDD’. Same technique used to get there and same end result.
People who have a history of violent felony are prohibited by law from finishing an 80% gun, the are prohibited from owning ammunition etc. Are they following these laws? What does that tell you? You can look at where criminals get guns according to DOJ data, and it is rarely legally, but that speaks to their willingness to break the law.
As to how you stop people who intend to behave badly but have not, that is very difficult, insoluble in fact. Since they have the right to buy a gun legally, buying an 80% gun does not make it easier.
You need to go to Japan......
:extract_focal()/https%3A%2F%2Fichef.bbci.co.uk%2Fnews%2F320%2Fcpsprodpb%2F4F02%2Fproduction%2F_93262202_rtr1opt1.jpg)
How Japan Has Almost Eradicated Gun Crime
Japan has one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world. In 2014 there were just six gun deaths, compared to 33,599 in the US. What is the secret?
Although I argue that Japans lack of gun crime has nothing to do with banning guns as shotguns and PCP air guns are plenty lethal.
Of course though the point of that article is not aimed at Japan.
Its conditioning for people here...
"Yeah thats the answer. We can still allow the Second Amendment but it only applies to Shotguns and Air rifles"
Japans gun crime would be at the same level if they allowed weapons ownership without restriction.
Their culture is what determines the lack of gun crime. Their is a homogeneity of thought we do not have.
Should we adopt their culture?
No.
My brother lived in Japan for 7 years. I myself studied Japanese culture long before he went there and was married to a Japanese woman. You are exactly correct. Culture also explains their very high suicide rate despite no guns.
@IrishWind. A lot of what you write reminds me of people going on about gun shows. Sure, only like .3% of crime guns come from gun shows, but they must be destroyed because it seems like they really, really should be a problem. It is that kind of logic that sacrifices the rights of the law abiding for no results at all. Dumb stuff. I don't even like gun shows, the people are generally fucking creepy, but they are not causing the spread of crime in this country.
Oh go fuck yourself with all your feel good bullshit.
So what you're telling me I can't exercise my rights if I desire to build a gun,house,car,airplaine?
Because a person can do a lot of illegal shit when using something not as intended
