Could owners of Nightforce, Vortex Viper PST/Razor and Bushnell Elite Tactical please give your opinions on the glass. With the new Bushnell Elite Tacticals coming out and about the same price as an NSX I am wondering if they would be worth the money or what I should go for to get the clearest glass at all ranges of magnification? I talked to Bushnell and the rep said the glass on all the Legend and Elite series scopes all use the same glass.
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Rifle Scopes Glass clarity
- Thread starter shoootingaz
- Start date
I looked thru this guys NF last year while at the range, he had it on 10x cuz he wanted to simulate a sniper rifle scope from years ago, I had just been shooting my 6mm or 308 which both have 6-24 Burris Signatures set @24X, I was not impressed by his NF in the least, kept my opinions to myself and went back to my shooting. My opinion of his NF was it looked hazy.
I have a nightforce 8-32x56 benchrest that is as clear as any of my other high quality glass. It has served me well for the past six years! I just bought a vortex and honestly I am very impressed with it. The clarity is as good or better than any of the other high quality scopes I have. I appreciate the warranty vortex offers but I hope I never have to use it. I will put the new vortex through a season or two before I purchase another to see if any issues arise. Never looked through the bushnell.
I've seen 3 different Nightforce NXS 5.5-22 scopes and owned one myself for almost two years. Two were older standard speed turrets, one was newer with the high speed turrets. All had fairly good clarity until you got into the higher magnification ranges (18x+) where it drops off and gets hazy. One negative is lots of Chromatic Aberration in all 3 scopes. Loved everything else about the scope though. Turrets were nearly perfect in my opinion, beefy yet didn't make a ton of noise when turning.
I also owned a Bushnell Elite Tactical 4200 3-12x which had good quality glass which did not degrade at higher powers. However it is difficult to compare with NF as it had much lower top end magnification. It still had a fair amount of CA but less than NF.
Although many say glass clarity is subjective, I just think lots of people have less than optimal eyesight. One of my friends would look thru my Leupold, NF and my Premier scopes and honestly not notice much of a difference. I couldn't believe it, I thought he had to be joking. Although all three are great scopes, optically there are some big diffences to me. It wasn't until later I found out he has really bad eyesight. After finding out we would look at the same image and he could not pick up the same level of details. I guess that is why he bought a Millett LRS-1 5-25x. For him it is simply not being able to discern the differences so higher quality glass didn't matter. What looked acceptable to him at 25x with the Millett made me nauseous and want to puke. On the flip side pairing good eyesight with top end glass is just amazing, except rough on the wallet. I guess that is why some get hooked on S&B and Hendsolt and never go back.
I would find it helpful if people listed their vision scores and age when reviewing scopes so the reader may be able to get some sense how the eyesite of the reviewer compares to their own. But alas that info is probably too personal
A scope has many important aspects which I would like to find out about from the reviewer, however if they have bad eyesight I would need to take their opinions of scope clarity with a grain of salt.
I also owned a Bushnell Elite Tactical 4200 3-12x which had good quality glass which did not degrade at higher powers. However it is difficult to compare with NF as it had much lower top end magnification. It still had a fair amount of CA but less than NF.
Although many say glass clarity is subjective, I just think lots of people have less than optimal eyesight. One of my friends would look thru my Leupold, NF and my Premier scopes and honestly not notice much of a difference. I couldn't believe it, I thought he had to be joking. Although all three are great scopes, optically there are some big diffences to me. It wasn't until later I found out he has really bad eyesight. After finding out we would look at the same image and he could not pick up the same level of details. I guess that is why he bought a Millett LRS-1 5-25x. For him it is simply not being able to discern the differences so higher quality glass didn't matter. What looked acceptable to him at 25x with the Millett made me nauseous and want to puke. On the flip side pairing good eyesight with top end glass is just amazing, except rough on the wallet. I guess that is why some get hooked on S&B and Hendsolt and never go back.
I would find it helpful if people listed their vision scores and age when reviewing scopes so the reader may be able to get some sense how the eyesite of the reviewer compares to their own. But alas that info is probably too personal
A scope has many important aspects which I would like to find out about from the reviewer, however if they have bad eyesight I would need to take their opinions of scope clarity with a grain of salt.
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I looked through a lot of glass before I bought my Bushy. I looked through a number of Nightforce's, USOptics, Vortex and Leupolds.
I went with the G2DMR because of the glass clarity, FFP, reticle, beefy knobs and solid construction. The glass in my opinion was just as good as the USO's and NF's and better than the others. But the bushy was half the price for me compared to the FFP NF's and USO's..
BTW my vision is corrected to 20/16, so slightly better than 20/20 with my glasses.
I went with the G2DMR because of the glass clarity, FFP, reticle, beefy knobs and solid construction. The glass in my opinion was just as good as the USO's and NF's and better than the others. But the bushy was half the price for me compared to the FFP NF's and USO's..
BTW my vision is corrected to 20/16, so slightly better than 20/20 with my glasses.
Threads like this show just how subjective glass quality can be. Just look at the differences of opinion on NF glass in any NF thread you find. The problem with doing objective research on optics is that everybody's eyes are different. We each see things differently and we each put an emphasis on different aspects of image quality. For some, bright = good glass, no matter how poor the resolution. For others, resolution = good glass, no matter how hazy or washed out the image. Others believe high contrast = good glass. Just because one aspect can be objectively shown to be better in Scope A vs Scope B doesn't mean that your particular eye will notice the difference. There's just no substitute for looking through the scopes yourself.
Owning the Razor HD and having checked the new Viper PST on several occasions I dare say that the glass itself is not worth the price difference between the two. If you don´t absolutely require the ruggedness of the Razor 35mm build, the Viper is a great buy.
Thanks for the opinion guys. I do have 20/20 vision. Looking through a <$500 scope I can see its dull and not as detailed as the ones around a thousand plus in price. But, when looking through the more expensive ones they look pretty much the same to me but that is also looking at them in the store, not at the top end of the power and not out in the daylight where I would be shooting 99% of the time. All three of these companies have outstanding rep and warranty. With Bushnell warranty slightly better because you can shoot with it for up to a year to make up your mind if you don't like it. I need to find a Bushnell to look through. I can't find anywhere local that has the Elite Tac version in stock.
Boy, it it as others have said, purely subjective to the user. I have NF, the HDMR, and the PST. I would put them 1-2-3 in that order. I have two NF, one FFP the other second. I have also heard(but I haven't seen for myself) the new 30 power FFP bushy is nice, and now that they have the 10mil turn and zero stop I'll have to try one, they will be under 2k where the F1 now is pushing 2500, the F1 is only 15x, if you wait for the NF Beast 5x25 it might be another 6 months and in the 3500 range. So now you're in the german glass price range! You probably need to get your eyes on a few and make your own decision. Let us know where you end up.
I have a Mark4, Viper PST and have looked through a NF NXS. All were SFP, 50mm, and on same zoom.
The sharpness of the glass of the NF was apparent to me - it was hands down better. I think the Mark4 and PST were roughly the same as far as sharpness goes, with possibly the PST looking better due to the reticle.
The laser etched reticle of the PST and the NF were better than the Mark4 as far as helping with precision of the reticle and overal appearence.
As for ruggedness (IN MY OPINION), it goes: NF, Mark4, PST
Out of the 3, NF is better, but not (IN MY OPINION) $1,000 better than my Mark4 or PST.
Unfortunatly, I have no first hand experience with the Bushnell Elite....
The sharpness of the glass of the NF was apparent to me - it was hands down better. I think the Mark4 and PST were roughly the same as far as sharpness goes, with possibly the PST looking better due to the reticle.
The laser etched reticle of the PST and the NF were better than the Mark4 as far as helping with precision of the reticle and overal appearence.
As for ruggedness (IN MY OPINION), it goes: NF, Mark4, PST
Out of the 3, NF is better, but not (IN MY OPINION) $1,000 better than my Mark4 or PST.
Unfortunatly, I have no first hand experience with the Bushnell Elite....
We really need someone to take pictures behind these scopes looking at a resolution target, at long range, on high power, for a better comparison.
I have an Elite Tactical Bushy, but it is only 12x -- how do the glass and coatings do at 21x, 24x, and 30x as I have not had a chance to look through those models?
I have an Elite Tactical Bushy, but it is only 12x -- how do the glass and coatings do at 21x, 24x, and 30x as I have not had a chance to look through those models?
Here us a copy of the 1951 chart. http://www.takinami.com/yoshihiko/photo/lens_test/USAF.pdf as stated, clarity is very subjective, unless you have test equipment that reads resolution it is up to the shooter to make their own assessment. The chart makes it a little easier, the scope that allows you to make out the smallest line pair has the better resolution.
Here is an example of one I set up in a park, this is through my Weaver 3-15x50, now my camera skills are not so great, but you get the jist.
I looked and looked and decided on a NF NSX , I have a Vortex HS as well, its good but not as good as the NF.
Some sporting stores have this chart on the wall (sportsmans warehouse), if not give your scopes a side-by-side.
Here is an example of one I set up in a park, this is through my Weaver 3-15x50, now my camera skills are not so great, but you get the jist.
I looked and looked and decided on a NF NSX , I have a Vortex HS as well, its good but not as good as the NF.
Some sporting stores have this chart on the wall (sportsmans warehouse), if not give your scopes a side-by-side.
I had this Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24x50 FFP with Illuminated Reticle. For $995, the glass was nice, but the eye relief was too picky for my taste...could never really look through it and see a clear picture edge to edge. Lots of tunneling.
I also had a Nightforce 2.5-10x32...great glass, far better than the above Bushnell, but it was more scope ($$ and weight) than I wanted/needed for shooting coyotes. Sold that and went to a 3-9x Trijicon, in which the glass is just as clear/bright, and it's better suited to hunting (less cluttered reticle, and far lighter in weight).
I'm considering a 4-16x Viper PST for my long range 223 build. Might do the 6-24x for my 308, but I'm thinking I might go with Trijicon's 5-20x50, even though it's SFP.
I had the chance to look through bushy, S&B, kahles, premiere, Steiner, USO, vortex while at KM precision. My eye sight is not the greatest, 20/30 at best and I absolutely saw a difference with the higher end scopes. I run a USO and a bushnell DMR and love em but they do not compare to S&B, premiere or kahles. I was very impressed with the Steiner as well. I was so impressed that ill be selling all my scopes shortly to procure probably a kahles or Steiner.
Agree the only way to know which one is to do a chart test outside at mid-day and dusk, but that being said the rest is subjective. Some eyeboxes bother some people, some people think certain click adjustments are mushy etc. We tend to be very picky at the higher price points. My favorite was the Zeiss Diavari 6-24 as far as glass, but ultimately for what I do I eventually sold it and bought two Mark 4s. Sometimes we get caught up in the Cadillac syndrome, the good thing is there are plenty of choices now, a lot more than when I first started shooting. The other hard part is for the average guy its hard to even see these different scopes at a dealer, most have to special order them.
I know they weren't listed in OP, but I believe the SSHD's deserve a nod in the glass clarity department, especially when you note the price. I own a couple of Razors, but it was very difficult for me to discern a difference in quality/clarity (and I have 20/15 vision [knocks on wood]).
Glass quality is only one consideration. A big one for a riflescope is durability and repeatability of the adjustments. I have seen more high-end glass scopes go down than a supposedly inferior glass NightForce for instance.
So when looking scopes, do some searching around for people reporting mechanical problems or sending them back in for service/refurb. I'll point out that the NightForce NSX series has around a decade of field use at this point and is used by many military units. It is rugged and reliable and the glass is fine for any shooting I've ever done out to 1200 yards in 15X configuration.
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For what its worth I found the turrets on the 10x42 HD to be mushy and they didn't align with the ticks on the turrets. Check this vid out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlhanoWk9bQ
On the other hand the non-HD version which I have now has better turrets.
Adding to the above - went from NF NXS SFP to USO to Razor HD............sold all 3 and miss the NF the most. Of the 3, the Razor HD matched or was too close to the USO to keep, although the clicks and lit mechanism were less than ideal to me. The NXS was very close to the Razor HD.
The NF was overall nearly ideal with excellent knobs, reticle (Np-R1) and overall the lit mechanism was very good.
The eyebox of the NF was a bit 'restrictive' even at lower power compared to the 2 above, with the Razor HD was the easiest to me. The HENy was by far the most forgiving that I have seen for a 3k plus optic and am assuming that the 56mm obj. / design adds to the forgiveness.
Viper PST - I will say that the Most impressive and shocking scope to date for me has been a demo/sample that my buddy got in for his biz. I was shocked at the price and the clarity of the optic. That was a very early release from Vortex and can't specifically remember if it was a SFP or FFP and 'think' it was a 6-24x. For the money it just seemed to be a home run.
In the end, Bushnell's ET and newest designs, SS HD, Vortex and the NXS give probably 80-90% of what persons can use, no matter the budget. Some folks can actually utilize or extract that extra performance from the 3k scopes, others just have the will or the ability to own those monsters. Like the many other posts of this nature, it is the quest to find or determine which is the best budget buy - the scope that outperforms everything up to 2x its price, Cuz we want it all and we want it now.
The NF was overall nearly ideal with excellent knobs, reticle (Np-R1) and overall the lit mechanism was very good.
The eyebox of the NF was a bit 'restrictive' even at lower power compared to the 2 above, with the Razor HD was the easiest to me. The HENy was by far the most forgiving that I have seen for a 3k plus optic and am assuming that the 56mm obj. / design adds to the forgiveness.
Viper PST - I will say that the Most impressive and shocking scope to date for me has been a demo/sample that my buddy got in for his biz. I was shocked at the price and the clarity of the optic. That was a very early release from Vortex and can't specifically remember if it was a SFP or FFP and 'think' it was a 6-24x. For the money it just seemed to be a home run.
In the end, Bushnell's ET and newest designs, SS HD, Vortex and the NXS give probably 80-90% of what persons can use, no matter the budget. Some folks can actually utilize or extract that extra performance from the 3k scopes, others just have the will or the ability to own those monsters. Like the many other posts of this nature, it is the quest to find or determine which is the best budget buy - the scope that outperforms everything up to 2x its price, Cuz we want it all and we want it now.
I should have a new bushnell 4.5-30 next week or the week after and cant wait to compare to my Razor. All the reviews of the new bushnell says the glass is amazing.
Try shooting in non-optimal conditions, thats when you can really see glass difference. In the day time, most scopes look fine (some are even able to suck during perfect light, but you get what you pay for). The Vortex PST stuff is crystal clear during perfect light as is leupold and im sure many others, but I didnt know how good nightforce was until I got to use it tonight for some low light 1000m shooting. On a 3-15x56 NXS, it looked AMAZING even after the sun went behind the mountains where some of the other guns out with us started to get difficult to see. I have an ATACR on the way, so im really excited to see how that looks at night.
I had several Bushnells and several NF scopes. The low - medium power Bushnells are excellent glass for their purpose. I have one on a hunting gun with DOA and its very nice for its purpose. I compared my Tactical Bushy to NF and slightly preferred NF glass, but overall there is no comparison in overall value IMHO. Turrets, zero stop...that stuff= NF winner.
The issue with looking through a buddys scope at the range, its focused for his eyes. Unless you take time and get it dialed in, it may look like shit.
I took my friends $4K S&B to help him work up a load and compared it to my NF, yes it was nicer. It hurt a little, yep. At 1,000 yards it was both brighter and cripser. Cost twice as much, but it was a solid upgrade in glass. There is not that difference in the NF over Bushnell, but they are cost comparative.
The issue with looking through a buddys scope at the range, its focused for his eyes. Unless you take time and get it dialed in, it may look like shit.
I took my friends $4K S&B to help him work up a load and compared it to my NF, yes it was nicer. It hurt a little, yep. At 1,000 yards it was both brighter and cripser. Cost twice as much, but it was a solid upgrade in glass. There is not that difference in the NF over Bushnell, but they are cost comparative.
It won't be don't let that discourage you. I had the 3-15 EDMR when they came out and still think its a great scope. In my experience and to my eyes you're going to have to go north of $1500 to find better glass. You have a good scope go out and enjoy it.
different eyes see and perceive things different, the best thing you can do is get behind the scope or other optic you are looking at draw your own conclusion. there is a large enough community here that it shouldn't be a impossible task . take other people opinions with a grain of salt, find the best thing that is suited to you and your task.
I looked through the new Nightforce 15-55x Competition Scope right next to my Schmidt Bender PMII 12.5-50x. There was no doubt that the new Nightforce was brighter and clearer when looking at 100yd Benchrest targets in bright daylight. I don't make this observation lightly (pun intended) since it was my Schmidt Bender and a friends new Nightforce!
As said before, glass is very subjective. Here is my experience. I had a first edition viper PST and broke it...My fault but the glass was impressive. Vortex replaced it but the glass in the second was much less than the first. I now shoot a Razor HD. I like the features and the glass. I am trying to decide on a scope for a new Accurate Ordnance 260 so I wanted to compare the same scopes you are considering. Couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity to compare my Razor head to head in low light against NF NSX, Bushnell HDMR, and the 5-20 Supersniper HD. NF dropped out first, HDMR next, and the Razor and SS went several minutes longer and I'd call them a tie. The Razor has the better reticle and zero stop, but I was surprised and impressed with the SSHD. For the price it's hard to beat. Anyway, that's my two cents... About what it's worth.
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