God I Suck.

[Idaho Savage]

*Preface: I came out of lurking recently because I'm a relatively new, totally self-taught rifle shooter. I've killed elk and deer with a 30-06 I bought out of the newspaper and never really caught the bug until lately. Now I'm devoted.

So I've been reading about proper technique. A lot. And watching youtube videos. A lot. And asking knowledgeable people stupid questions. A lot.

And then going shooting.

Here's my question: As you transition from know-nothing to sound shooter, is it possible to actually get worse in the process? This weekend I took my Savage 11 LR Hunter in .300 WM with Vortex Viper HD out for a quick session. I stuck to 100 yards, as I am concentrated on real basic fundamentals right now--breathing, trigger squeeze, cheek weld, etc. Now keep in mind that it was windy as hell--gusts of 30mph, etc. and I'd try to shoot between gusts when it would die down to 5-10mph. Wind was at my back, too.

Net result? I'm shooting 3" to 4" groups at 100 yards, prone, bipod, factory ammo (still working on sling separately, but not this time). 3"- 4" groups? I was pretty frustrated but I'm also old enough to know when you're working on something new and get frustrated, you're better off hanging it up for the day, so I left after only 20 rounds. Still, I shot 1.5" groups only a week ago, and shot 4" groups at 200 yards that same day.

WTF?

Thanks in advance. Just trying to snail along but setbacks always drive a guy crazy. I'm thinking it had to do with my focus, meaning on one shot I might have been more focused on trigger pull than the next, when I'd be really concentrated on cheek weld. Nothing is automatic yet, I know that. Would wind, alone, really account for that much inconsistency at only 100 yards with such a rifle?

 

[NorthWinds]

I've been shooting a few years too, but just starting to get into the long range stuff recently. My personal experience, limited as it is, says a lack of consistency. On a good day I can shoot about .8 MOA at 100 yards, and on a bad day I'm 2+. I think it's just from not shooting enough rounds to be consistent. But maybe that's just me. Try some dry firing, I've caught a couple problems that way. Good luck

 

[Km22]

300 win mag is a very tough round to begin learning on. My 300 win mag without a break kicks harder than my braked .338 Lapua. Also, what kind of ammunition are you using? If you haven't already, be sure to use MATCH ammunition.

 

[Idaho Savage]

300 win mag is a very tough round to begin learning on. My 300 win mag without a break kicks harder than my braked .338 Lapua. Also, what kind of ammunition are you using? If you haven't already, be sure to use MATCH ammunition.

It's got a brake on it, so it's not too bad at all in the recoil department.

I'm shooting Fusion 180. Local shop is ma and pa and very low in selection. Are there some online sources for MATCH ammo? Any specific recs you'd point me to? Thanks for the help.
[MENTION=83746]NorthWinds[/MENTION]: Yeah, I know. I need to get more time in behind the trigger. I do some dry firing which has answered a few questions, for sure. It's the adjustments to those recognized problems I don't always know. For instance, I noted that my trigger pull causes the rifle to move just slightly left. What do I do? Don't know. Tired sqeezing more "towards me" which helped, but you get the picture.

I'm thinking of taking one of those expensive classes, but I really don't have the scrilla. All my buddies are mostly self taught with tons of experience. Doesn't mean they can teach proper technique, though. I need to get out with my coworker who was a Recon sniper....he could probably help me.

 

[Km22]

You definitely want match ammunition to see how accurate (or inaccurate) you're shooting. Federal Premium Gold Medal Match (190gr) and Black Hills (190gr) are usually regarded as the best of the shelf ones. I've also had very good results with CorBon 190gr. When in stock, Southwest Ammunition has a very good 220gr offering. I believe Midway USA had some FP GMM in stock. It's definitely more expensive, but worth the cost for you to test it.

 

[NorthWinds]

Could be your trigger finger touching the stock, there should be space between your trigger finger and the stock. It could also be you torquing the rifle if you put your thumb over the back like most hunters do, I saw a huge improvement when I kept my thumb straight along the grip. More trigger time... Don't we all need that?! might try some different ammo. High quality hunting ammo will produce about MOA groups in my experience, your rifle may just hate that load.
But only change one thing at a time. I'm just spitballing here to try and help you brainstorm. Cheers.

 

[glassbeaver]

4" is a pretty big spread. Make sure your rings and base are torqued down properly. As mentioned earlier, use quality ammo. Makes a world of difference.

 

[VJJPunisher]

yes it's possible to get worse as you learn a new skill.....er a new skill correctly. When you go about conciously trying to fix this or that all at once after years of doing something a different way, or wrong way, its almost a sure thing that it will appear that you did better before with your old techniques. This is not a bad thing. Perhaps attempt to focus on one aspect of your shot plan on a particular outing, and so on building on as you've mastered each subtle aspect to a complex series of events leading to the break of the trigger. You're on the right path to enlightenment, identify your faults.

 

[VJJPunisher]

I mean uhhh what? I just had an outer body experience

 

[Joe L]

When I first started shooting a bolt gun with a scope, the biggest problem I had was adjusting the parallax on the scope correctly. Groups shrunk as I learned to adjust the scope and become consistent behind the gun. I shot a lot of Fusion 180 and it worked well in my rifle.

On my scope, I also had to start with it out at infinity and turn the knob down to the target range and never reverse the direction. If I reversed the direction, the first one or two shots would be enough to move the internals and change the parallax due to slack in the mechanism. Just a thought. (Torque the scope mounts and action screws, too.)

Joe

 

[seanhagerty]

Not sure of your experience level, so I will pick the low hanging fruit.

I would make sure your rifle is capable of smaller groups before you blame your technique. Use a lead sled or other fixed rest to shoot a few groups.

Also, make sure your action screws are torqued to about 40-50in/lbs and that your barrel is free floated.

Do not forget to check to make sure your scope mounts and rings are tight too.

Sean

 

[mrbungle]

i feel your pain, idaho. me and a buddy are new to long distance shooting . at first we really sucked then we thought we were becoming pretty hot shit when we started hitting 400 to 500 yards shots with some consistency. then we went to the range last week with 10+ wind speed and could not hit anything after 150 yards.........blaming everything from the scopes to our form to not being able to figure out our windage. .....we spent the day chasing shots and cussing..

once you think you have it figured out you realize how far you have to go, that is my case any ways.

 

[mrbungle]

oh i might add i just got a decent rifle....so we will see how that goes.

 

[demolitionman]

I'm with the theory of having someone you know is capable of shooting moa.... Put him behind the rifle, if groups are in the fours problem is gun/ammo/scope related. My friend just bought a 700vtr and he was bummed saying it only shoots 2" or bigger at 100. I sat behind it and am pissed (happy for him) because his gun shoots factory loads(cheap shit) into one ragged hole all day long with me behind it. I can't do that with my savage and my best hand loads. Needless to say, after seeing me do that, he gained confidence in his gun, and by 2 boxes he too was shooting .3moa or less!

 

[Xshot]

You're shooting a light weight barrel in .300 Win Mag that will get hot fast. If you're shooting a five shot string and each subsequent shot is wandering further off POA, then you have your answer. Your problem will be further exacerbated if the barrel isn't totally free-floated and the action firmly bedded. Try a series of cold bore shots to see where if you POA and POI are consistent.

 

[Crosshairs6]

As a former USMC Sniper Instructor, I have seem this many times in "grouping drills" at 100 yards. Assuming your rifle is put together correctly, and from what you are stating, It seems to me that as you are squeezing the trigger, you are watching the target and not the crosshairs. You body postion keeps you on target. You must have crystal clear crosshairs when the shot breaks. If not, your groups will be huge.

 

[Idaho Savage]

As a former USMC Sniper Instructor, I have seem this many times in "grouping drills" at 100 yards. Assuming your rifle is put together correctly, and from what you are stating, It seems to me that as you are squeezing the trigger, you are watching the target and not the crosshairs. You body postion keeps you on target. You must have crystal clear crosshairs when the shot breaks. If not, your groups will be huge.

Ah ha! This makes a ton of sense and definitely guilty as charged.

Thanks for all of the input above. I went out and found one box of match grade Federal, too. I'll see how she likes it. I also spoke to my Marine friend who recommend the "dry fire with a quarter on your barrel" trick until that squeeze and cheek weld are rock solid. He actually told me a lot of things to work on.

I am also going to lead sled that thing just to get rid of the "crazy" worry.

Thanks,

IS

 

[Navybowhunter]

I am a NOOB also, and have a post in this forum titled "Accuracy/Form issues". Great people in here. I will say, cause I proved it to myself yesterday, if you can handload, do it. Nothing more accurate.
I tried the Federal GMM's, and had two touching at 100, but a flier that was 1.5" out. Not good enough for me, now....I possibly flinched, but the rifle was dead set in a lead sled, 2 25 lb bags of lead, and sandbags fore and aft.

So, my advice (it is very limited), find a load your rifle loves, and practice with that. Eliminate as much variation as you can, equipment and ammo wise especially. I am also a bow hunter...., and hate when I wound or miss. BUT....., hate it even more if I cannot tell if it is me or my equipment. Same with this game...., VARIATION is the enemy.

Eliminate as much as you can of that, and then we can both say to eachother "I suck", But it was all "me".

R/
Chris

 

[hlee]

Same rifle, same day, same shooter...

Federal Fusion 165gr 308 win.


Hornady Match 168gr BTHP 308 win.


Definitely get some match ammunition before drawing conclusions on how much you suck.

That being said, it is very possible for the results to deteriorate as you unlearn what is comfortable and learn what is correct. Your results should improve (assuming you DO suck and it is not the ammunition) as your form improves.

 

[M40_A1]

If at all possible, get with a local smallbore rifle league. As you learn and practice proper fundamentals (with cheaper .22 ammo, BTW), you will eventually see steady progress (a slow .22 LR with lots of barrel time is surprisingly unforgiving of bad form). Unfortunately, the season just ended, but will resume at the end of the year. Keep it in mind toward the end of the summer.

In the mean time keep practicing the fundamentals, and snap in (dry fire) A LOT (it's free, and especially valuable when your rifle is a heavy recoiling 300WM!). Study flags around town, check weather sites to compare, observe mirage, and start to learn reading wind. By next summer, you'll be off to a great start.

 

[Idaho Savage]

If at all possible, get with a local smallbore rifle league. As you learn and practice proper fundamentals (with cheaper .22 ammo, BTW), you will eventually see steady progress (a slow .22 LR with lots of barrel time is surprisingly unforgiving of bad form). Unfortunately, the season just ended, but will resume at the end of the year. Keep it in mind toward the end of the summer.

In the mean time keep practicing the fundamentals, and snap in (dry fire) A LOT (it's free, and especially valuable when your rifle is a heavy recoiling 300WM!). Study flags around town, check weather sites to compare, observe mirage, and start to learn reading wind. By next summer, you'll be off to a great start.

First of all, as NavyBowHunter pointed out, this place is awesome and I am appreciative of all the posts here. You guys are super friendly and definitely already helping me along.

Post above is funny, simply because tonight I decided to dial it down. I took the 10-22 out the canyon and simply concentrated on cheek weld, trigger work and flinching. I kept my eye glued on the front iron sight (no scope on it right now due to night predator attacks on ranch--long story) and had a great time simply shooting at cans. I didn't really care if I hit them; more that my cheek stayed glued to the rifle with no flinching and a 2-second follow through. It felt great, and I was shooting quite well at 40 yards. There are no small bore leagues here but it's easy enough to shoot one where I live.

So then, being the OCD type, I promptly came home and ordered a bull barrel and stock upgrade for the 10-22 from Midway. Nothing to fancy, but enough to make that gun feel more like my .300 than it does now. Also bought a few snap caps to dry fire with the .300.

Thanks again...I'll keep this thread updated.

 

[Dallas4rceMarine]

Welcome to the long range shooting community! while it can be frustrating it is also very rewarding when your hard work pays off and you start getting those 1k yard shots and further! you have already got some very good advice so there isn't much for me to add except to re-emphasize a few key things already mentioned. the best and cheapest way to get familiar with your rifle is dry firing. if your a prone shooter go outside and lay in the prone get comfortable and practice your cheek weld, grip, looking at a crisp crosshair, slow steady trigger squeeze, and then bolt manipulation. you should be able to work the bolt without coming off of the rifle. what are you using under the butt stock to lift it up when shooting? a good shooting bag, sand sock, your fist, or a baseball hat can all be used and will help minimize some of your movement when taking your shot. trying match ammo while the rifle is in a bench rest or with a known 1moa shooter is also a good test. if you have any good gunsmiths near you you can ask them to true your action for you. should be less than $100 and actually does make a difference.

 

[AZ.noob]

So then, being the OCD type, I promptly came home and ordered a bull barrel and stock upgrade for the 10-22 from Midway. Nothing to fancy, but enough to make that gun feel more like my .300 than it does now.

GOOD call
I'm a relatively new to precision shooting, maybe a ~little bit~ further along, but always working to learn and improve. I find that training with a 10/22 is time very well spent, as all the same principles apply.

If the wind is calm, I shoot rimfire at 100 yards. It forces you to focus and apply sound fundamentals, and do it consistently. Just fyi... on my 10/22 combo, I dial 6 minutes (+/-) elevation from a 50 yard zero to get POA/POI @ 100. Lots of variables of course, but should get you in the ballpark or at least on paper.

 

[seanh]

nice follow up on that group.

Just wanted to add this. If you're having to push the cross-hairs to the target, it could be the source of a problem. Some time during the firing sequence, the body will naturally relax, causing a flying shot. The solution is to naturally be pointing at the target. When you think you're lined up, relax and close your eyes for a few seconds...when you open them you should be on target- if not then you modify your position.


Can you get worse before you get better...absolutely. As mentioned, you're trying to unlearn habits or simply learn muscle memory. It's frustrating but it will all come together much more consistently...just takes time.

Also, consider this--we all have off days. When you have one- forget accuracy days. Just break-out the .22 or airgun and have some plinking fun.

 

[Idaho Savage]

nice follow up on that group.

Just wanted to add this. If you're having to push the cross-hairs to the target, it could be the source of a problem. Some time during the firing sequence, the body will naturally relax, causing a flying shot. The solution is to naturally be pointing at the target. When you think you're lined up, relax and close your eyes for a few seconds...when you open them you should be on target- if not then you modify your position.


Can you get worse before you get better...absolutely. As mentioned, you're trying to unlearn habits or simply learn muscle memory. It's frustrating but it will all come together much more consistently...just takes time.

Also, consider this--we all have off days. When you have one- forget accuracy days. Just break-out the .22 or airgun and have some plinking fun.

I'm on "staycation" this week and am going to go out with a led sled, a box of Federal Premium and a box of HSM. I'll try to shoot some pics. Then I'm off into the hills to go zip a gobbler with the bow....hopefully.

 

[Gillettehunter]

One othe request ion is have you cleaned your rifle? I have a hunting rifle that holds under 1/2min for the first 10-12 shots after cleaning. Then the groups start to open up. Try cleaning it good and get all of the copper out. See if it helps. You also mentioned it was windy on the last day out. Was your rest solid or was there any movement from the wind. That again can be a problem. Horizontal differences could be wind. Good luck. Bruce

 

[seanh]

Bow shooting the gobbler...now that sounds like fun. Would you use a hooter shooter at the bow range and consider yourself a good shot if you used one? The led sled is no different. Ditch the led sled and sell it to some other new shooter and take the funds to invest in parts or reloading supplies.

BTW...if you're using the sled, it's not YOU that is doing the work and you have no right to post any pic of any target shot through such device. The only people that should use a sled are the handicapped.

 

[Khavic]

One thing to also consider is making sure your target stand is secure. If your target is pitching back and forth in the wind that will have a huge effect.

Something that helped me a lot was having someone else load my magazine and put a couple empty brass in. Dry firing is great, but you'll learn a lot about your flinch, stock weld and trigger pull when your mind does not already know that there will be no recoil.

 

[Idaho Savage]

And I'm back....no gobblers as we missed the rut for sure but we managed to kill a couple bottles of Wild Turkey, slept under the Nothern Idaho stars every night and most importantly, totally unplugged from work for four marvelous days.

My 10-22 is now done, with a "Tacticool' stock that I stained and finished and a bull barrel. It is FUN now....really excited to spend some time with it. Also got some snap caps for the 300 and I've been doing the "dime on the barrel" game for a few nights.
[MENTION=57479]seanh[/MENTION] The only reason I want to use a led sled with match grade ammo is to a) make sure the rifle is shooting well on it's own b) to identify the best ammo and c) to sight in the rifle's new scope on the sled. Basically to eliminate as many variables as I can before continuing to tackle the variables the shooter brings to the table. Cool?

 

[hlee]

Read this thread before dropping money on a lead sled...

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/s4-sniper%92s-hide%AE-equipment/189349-lead-sled-yes-no.html

 

[chopper duke]

As a former USMC Sniper Instructor, I have seem this many times in "grouping drills" at 100 yards. Assuming your rifle is put together correctly, and from what you are stating, It seems to me that as you are squeezing the trigger, you are watching the target and not the crosshairs. You body postion keeps you on target. You must have crystal clear crosshairs when the shot breaks. If not, your groups will be huge.

I sucked when I started. Still suck, but what can you do. But yeah, this is great advice and one I wish I had learned early on. Would have saved a small fortune in ammo costs.

 

[majvret]

I know it sounds like stating the obvious, but be sure and re-check all screws and mounts. I have seen one scope mount screw be loose just enough to cause inconsistencies, same with stock screws. Also seen scopes that were suppose to be very good have things wrong internally that took a lot of ammo wasted to figure it out. Same with bad rifles and ammo. Have you had another known good shooter try it? It might not be you, but then again it could be and more training, better ammo and more shooting can fix that.

 

[BGE541]

Definitely get some match ammunition before drawing conclusions on how much you suck.

When reading this is brought up a point I felt like sharing FWIW. Being new to the Long Range game can be an amazing experience. I know right now you are working on a rifle/load issue but that being said, Confidence is Key. Im not saying you arent confident or what not but I believe the mental side of shooting can make or break you before you EVER touch that rifle. Sometimes groups/shots ect arent as good as we would like but it is important to do what you are doing and seek the answer without questioning yourself. Not saying we all couldnt improve in someway(s).

For instance if I get the chance and am at range/match/training I will always TRY to have make my last shot (or dial it in until its a keeper) so that when I pack up the rifle I am confident in the rifles ability and my ability to operate it. When it comes down to it and you have to make a shot, being a hunter you know that for the most part it is just you, the rifle and the target... No SH to pull up for tips, nothing else. So equip yourself properly, make corrections to your gear (as you are) and enjoy it!

BGE

 

[Idaho Savage]

Hi Guys--been a while as I have been busy with life. Switched jobs from Smith Optics to running sales for a young brand that I've been behind since it's inception: Merino Wool Hunting Clothes. So that's all good. But maybe what's better is that thanks to this thread and others on this board, a ton of practice and admittedly some coin, I finally had terrific--dare I say flawless round at the range yesterday while trying the 11th brand of match grade ammo with my 300 Win Mag. The result was 1/3 inch groups in the black at 100 yards consistently, shooting prone.

A few notes to close this out and to help people who reference this thread:

Intention: To become effective enough to shoot consistent groups at 500 yards for hunting. No matches, etc. for me, just total confidence in the field. I had to start by stacking rounds at 100 yards and that's what I've achieved so far.

Rifle: Stock Savage 300 Win Mag Long Range Hunter.
Optics: Vortex 6-24X50 FFP Viper PST
Accessories:
1. Harris Bipod with "swivel" allowing rifle to stay level off camber. Note about this: I started with a different brand and had very, very frustrating results. My friend insisted that I get a real Harris and though I didn't want to pony up, questioning how much difference it could make, it was seriously NIGHT AND DAY in immediate results. Ultimately, this was half the equation.
2. Per the thread about Sling Shooting and at the urging of some veteran posters here, I got a shooting sling. Specifically, I opted for the TAB Gear sling. These are very well built and seemed to be the missing piece in really making me consistent.
3. Homemade cheek piece via pipe insulation and digi-cam duct tape. No matter what you use to get there, creating a custom-fit cheek weld helped my body positioning become more consistent.

Ammo: After trying 10 other combos-everything from Nosler to Mil-Spec rounds, my rifle ended up shooting best with Remington Swift A-Frames in 200 Grain. The biggest gap was closed when I started shooting 200 grain or more--this rifle simply doesn't like smaller grain loads.

Most helpful practice and shooting techniques:

1. Repetition! This is obvious but when starting out and especially using a big caliber rifle, you have to train your brain to ignore it's reflexive reaction as well as make the proper technique automatic.
2. Quarters and dry firing. Using snap caps, I spent a lot of time placing quarters on the barrel and dry firing. This really helped.
3. Trigger work. Using the technique above, I concentrated on making my trigger pulls straight and "soft."
4. Breathing. This was most obvious and easiest for me.
5. Focusing on the cross hairs, not the target. As pointed out to me in a post above, I hadn't heard of this. The minute I started including this in my checklist, I noticed serious improvement.
6. Shooting smaller calibers. I built my .22 up to help me practice, and this made a huge difference in training my brain to ignore recoil. I even found that shooting my 30-30 helped as an intermediary and was especially helpful learning to shoot with a shooting sling. Bonus is that I'm infinitely more accurate with that rifle now.
7. Perhaps most important was learning to totally relax. My Recon buddy told me to get to the point where you could literally fall asleep on the cheek rest, your body is so relaxed. This was tough, took a LOT time and counter intuitive to the brain but once you get there, it's a huge help. Then you're just pulling the trigger very slowly and lightly with your relaxed body position doing all the work. The result is like the gun is doing the work because you're totally at rest. The biggest help to achieving this was the .22.

That's about it. I'm not claiming to be an expert nor even "good" marksman by any stretch but I do feel like I finally have the super solid foundation to start stretching my shots out and working with windage, etc. Big thanks to all you guys who helped me out!!!

The rifle:

 

[WildcatHill]

2. Quarters and dry firing. Using snap caps, I spent a lot of time placing quarters on the barrel and dry firing. This really helped.

Thanks for this Savage, going to work on this tonight, never thought or heard that exercise before.

I know well what the original poster and others here are going through - been a shooter and hunter for many years, but when, until recently, you only care about being accurate enough to make your hunting kills (which in New England are rarely over 100yds!), the bad habits reveal themselves to be persistent and aplenty when shooting out to 250+ for the first times.

I remember being shocked that things that kept me to 1-1.5" patterns at 100yds were yielding sometimes 6" patterns at 200yds... yikes, what a wakeup call!

 

[rideHPD]

1. Repetition! This is obvious but when starting out and especially using a big caliber rifle, you have to train your brain to ignore it's reflexive reaction as well as make the proper technique automatic.
2. Quarters and dry firing. Using snap caps, I spent a lot of time placing quarters on the barrel and dry firing. This really helped.
3. Trigger work. Using the technique above, I concentrated on making my trigger pulls straight and "soft."
4. Breathing. This was most obvious and easiest for me.
5. Focusing on the cross hairs, not the target. As pointed out to me in a post above, I hadn't heard of this. The minute I started including this in my checklist, I noticed serious improvement.
6. Shooting smaller calibers. I built my .22 up to help me practice, and this made a huge difference in training my brain to ignore recoil. I even found that shooting my 30-30 helped as an intermediary and was especially helpful learning to shoot with a shooting sling. Bonus is that I'm infinitely more accurate with that rifle now.
7. Perhaps most important was learning to totally relax. My Recon buddy told me to get to the point where you could literally fall asleep on the cheek rest, your body is so relaxed. This was tough, took a LOT time and counter intuitive to the brain but once you get there, it's a huge help. Then you're just pulling the trigger very slowly and lightly with your relaxed body position doing all the work. The result is like the gun is doing the work because you're totally at rest. The biggest help to achieving this was the .22.

I think this is really the best summation to the list of things to focus on when attempting to fix form errors, most importantly relaxation, as you stressed. I had a long running problem where I could not shoot at a particular range, but was able to shoot well at other ranges. The issue arose from the targets being at a low-angle downgrade, which required me to elevate my body, using muscular tension to hold myself up.

I would add another idea I had that helped a lot was to dryfire before shooting, in-between strings while shooting, and AFTER shooting. I would change things about my form after noticing errors, only for them to return at later sessions, despite repetitive dryfire practice. I started dryfiring 20-50x before leaving the range, building and rebuilding my position, then repeating the process when I returned home. This really drove the corrections home and I tended to stray away less and become more consistent.

 

[relentless1]

Look, you do not suck, you just are fighting the same rollerco aster we all do in shooting...the only way you will fail, is if you give up ! That IS failure.
It takes trigger control as well, and this is critical, to be relaxed, compfortale, watch ALL Lowloights vids, and just practice consistany! Do NOT take an f ing ruler with you to worry about your group sizes , just relax and practise being stable , compfortable, site picture pause your breath and sqeeze.The gun going off should almost suprise you...just hold your follow through a couple seconds after gun goes off, let off trigger and release your puase , breath, nd load next round when you are ready. Dont go searching for every shot between shots, just shoot 5 and then check it out.RELAX!
One more help is to use a rear sqeeze bag this got me out to longer ranges quicker Be RELENTLESS!

 

[da hammer]

From a newbie to long range it's amazing how much help there is on this board and especially in this one thread. Thanks Guys!

 

[Danco411]

This is all great advice above but alot of it may be your rifle. I see you were shooting a Savage 111. Did it have the 22" sporter barrel? These barrels are very thin and made for hunting. More than 3 rounds and the barrel heats up so much your POI is way off. I have seen lots of guys decide they want to shoot tiny groups and go to the range with thier hunting guns and pound rounds downrange with their sporter barrels. The barrel gets red hot and they are all over the place. Hunting barrels are for hunting. For target work you need a heavy Varmint and minimum if you want to do 5 or 10 round groups.

So now comes the tough part about this obsession. The endless quest for better kit! )

 

[damoncali]

THe dirty secret is that shooting 1 MOA at 100 yards is not very difficult (from a bench or prone rest). A little trigger control and and afternoon of practice can get you there. I suspect a lot of people who think they are not very good simply don't have rifles that are capable of that kind of accuracy and it's trendy to blame yourself rather than the equipment. It's not uncommon for factory rifles to shoot 2, 3, or even 4 MOA. My old Mini 30 would shoot no better than 8, but there's a whole 'nother thread on that elsewhere. It takes a very nice rifle to shoot a 1/2 MOA group consistently.

Shooting 1/2 MOA groups gets harder. Shooting 1/4 MOA groups takes some serious skill and probably wind flags. None of this will happen with a factory rifle. Most customs will not shoot this well. Check out some benchrest match results. Expensive rifles in ideal conditions are doing well to break a .250 aggregate.

 

[John11-87]

THe dirty secret is that shooting 1 MOA at 100 yards is not very difficult (from a bench or prone rest). A little trigger control and and afternoon of practice can get you there. I suspect a lot of people who think they are not very good simply don't have rifles that are capable of that kind of accuracy and it's trendy to blame yourself rather than the equipment. It's not uncommon for factory rifles to shoot 2, 3, or even 4 MOA. My old Mini 30 would shoot no better than 8, but there's a whole 'nother thread on that elsewhere. It takes a very nice rifle to shoot a 1/2 MOA group.

Shooting 1/2 MOA groups gets harder. Shooting 1/4 MOA groups takes some serious skill and probably wind flags. None of this will happen with a factory rifle. Most customs will not shoot this well. Check out some benchrest match results. Expensive rifles in ideal conditions are doing well to break a .250 aggregate.

Amen to that, Alot of people talk about how good of "group" their rifle shoots, they are normally referring to a 3 shot group they shot 1 time.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Thanks for this Savage, going to work on this tonight, never thought or heard that exercise before.

I know well what the original poster and others here are going through - been a shooter and hunter for many years, but when, until recently, you only care about being accurate enough to make your hunting kills (which in New England are rarely over 100yds!), the bad habits reveal themselves to be persistent and aplenty when shooting out to 250+ for the first times.

I remember being shocked that things that kept me to 1-1.5" patterns at 100yds were yielding sometimes 6" patterns at 200yds... yikes, what a wakeup call!

once yer proficient with this put a cleaning rod sticking out the bore and place a dime/penny on that, takes it to the next level. Best done with a buddy to keep replacing the dime, reference Dime/Washer drills, some wierdo groups have been doing this for years to train "joes"

 

[RanchhandTCR]

Another thing with the 300 WM is you really need to control the recoil too, but it takes time to get comfortable with a new technique but all sound advice.

 

[Coloradocop]

*Preface: I came out of lurking recently because I'm a relatively new, totally self-taught rifle shooter. I've killed elk and deer with a 30-06 I bought out of the newspaper and never really caught the bug until lately. Now I'm devoted.

So I've been reading about proper technique. A lot. And watching youtube videos. A lot. And asking knowledgeable people stupid questions. A lot.

And then going shooting.

Here's my question: As you transition from know-nothing to sound shooter, is it possible to actually get worse in the process? This weekend I took my Savage 11 LR Hunter in .300 WM with Vortex Viper HD out for a quick session. I stuck to 100 yards, as I am concentrated on real basic fundamentals right now--breathing, trigger squeeze, cheek weld, etc. Now keep in mind that it was windy as hell--gusts of 30mph, etc. and I'd try to shoot between gusts when it would die down to 5-10mph. Wind was at my back, too.

Net result? I'm shooting 3" to 4" groups at 100 yards, prone, bipod, factory ammo (still working on sling separately, but not this time). 3"- 4" groups? I was pretty frustrated but I'm also old enough to know when you're working on something new and get frustrated, you're better off hanging it up for the day, so I left after only 20 rounds. Still, I shot 1.5" groups only a week ago, and shot 4" groups at 200 yards that same day.

WTF?

Thanks in advance. Just trying to snail along but setbacks always drive a guy crazy. I'm thinking it had to do with my focus, meaning on one shot I might have been more focused on trigger pull than the next, when I'd be really concentrated on cheek weld. Nothing is automatic yet, I know that. Would wind, alone, really account for that much inconsistency at only 100 yards with such a rifle?

Here are a few thoughts I had after reading your post. I hope that some or all of this may help you diagnose your issues:

Is there any chance that your scope isn't mounted tightly? My girlfriend's father had that issue with his rifle recently, and it's a common enough problem. If all of the pieces of your kit aren't interacting properly, you won't get the results you want. In the case I just mentioned, he must have wasted about 100 rounds through his rifle, fighting crappy groups at just 100 yards. I used his rifle for a five shot group while we were out a couple of weeks ago, and it immediately became obvious that there was something wrong with the rig. After putting the torque wrench to it I found that the base screws weren't anywhere near tight enough, nor were the rings... I re-torqued the whole thing for him, now it shoots great. Even on my own rifles I've seen where the "I think it's tight enough" philosophy has caused me to scratch my head and waste ammo for a while in the past.

As for wind, it really isn't a huge factor at 100 yards. At that distance with my target load in my .308 Win (which doesn't buck wind as well as your .300 Win Mag) I'm only looking at 1.7 inches of windage, even with a 30 mph full-value wind (direct crosswind). Even then, if things stay consistent it is still possible to shoot small groups. Honestly though, if the wind gets strong enough (and it has for me on a couple of occasions) it can be a lot more trying to hold small groups, if only because the wind makes it hard for you to maintain a consistent position (I had this issue in 40mph gusting conditions one day, with lots of dust blowing around).

One more thing: be sure you aren't chasing your shots when shooting for group size! I apologize if this sounds entirely obvious, but I've seen it happen repeatedly to newer shooters, so I figure it's worth mentioning. What I mean here is that if you take your first shot aiming for the center of your target, and your shot hits somewhere other than the center of your target (lets just say one inch high and one inch left, for sake of example), you still want to aim for the center of the target on the remaining shots you take during that string. If you don't do this, and instead aim for your previous hit, your group size will open up (presumably by the margin that you were off-from-center to begin with, assuming you broke each shot clean on target). The time to make adjustments for misses is when you're shooting in the practical world... if you're shooting for group size it's great if you can have everything in the bullseye, but that's more a factor of adjusting your zero, and adjusting for conditions. Ultimately, you must aim at the same spot every time you fire if you want to shoot your best possible group.

As for ammo, make sure you're shooting some quality stuff, even if you need to use factory "match" ammo. You won't really know what you and your rifle are capable of if you're shooting ammo that simply isn't capable of performing along with the rest of the system. Federal Gold Medal Match ammo is my usual choice when I'm running factory ammo.

Finally, practice your form at home. Dry firing can tell you quite a bit about how you're releasing the shot in many cases, and might help you diagnose some problems with your form. Nevertheless, flinch can be an issue when live-firing at the range. The .300 Win Mag can be a bit punishing cartridge to shoot, particularly in a light rifle, and recoil anticipation can wreak havoc on your shooting game. It's an insidious problem that you may not even realize you're having, but it can creep up on you after a long range session with a shoulder-bruising rifle.

Finally, and this is important, if you still aren't seeing results, and haven't previously "proven" the rifle, find an experienced and competent shooter and see what they can do with it! Hunting-grade rifles have come a long way over the years, but you want to eliminate the possibility that an equipment problem is causing the large groups, rather than a human problem. So, if things aren't working right, get someone of known shooting ability to try it out. If they shoot a group in the .5's, you can feel competent in your system. If they can't keep it inside of 2 inches, the equipment may be the issue. One of the first things I was taught when I was learning to instruct shooters was to try their gear out if they're having a consistent problem with it. For example: one shooter in an academy class a few years ago was having a consistent double-feed issue with her pistol. For a couple of weeks this shooter struggled as instructors erroneously told her that the problem was caused by "limp wristing" the pistol. Eventually another instructor arrogantly tried the pistol to "prove" this fact to the recruit, and suddenly had the same problem... closer examination led to the conclusion that the extractor was damaged on the pistol. Oops! A simple mechanical problem was being blamed on a novice shooter who wasn't actually at fault for the malfunctions, and a lot of time, effort, and heartache were wasted on that issue!

Anyway, I hope some of that was helpful!

 

[sib1948]

Great thread with many valuable tips and realistic expectations and limitations in shooting groups. Just remember small deviation at 100 yds are magnified at great distance. I doubt you can ever stop learning in this sport. Just when everything falls into to place, age can take it's toll with bad back, knees or trigger finger and worsening vision. Agree a lot is mental and confidence as in most sporting endeavors. Thanks for all the great insight everyone provided. Good and safe shooting!

 

[RanchhandTCR]

I proably shot have explained my self better. No doubt the gun recoils, but I also failed to notice you where shooting it well and then you began to shoot poorly while trying to learn a new technique. What I mean by control the recoil- is I mean to make sure the muzzle jump in what ever which way if it jumps to the left, right it can ruin your shoot, so all Im saying it to be in control of the recoil dont let the recoil control you...

 

[Sinus211]

So many variables here.

Learning a new technique that changes your set pattern is always hard. Give it some time and you'll figure out what's going wrong.

 

[Idaho Savage]

Here are a few thoughts I had after reading your post. I hope that some or all of this may help you diagnose your issues:

Is there any chance that your scope isn't mounted tightly? My girlfriend's father had that issue with his rifle recently, and it's a common enough problem. If all of the pieces of your kit aren't interacting properly, you won't get the results you want. In the case I just mentioned, he must have wasted about 100 rounds through his rifle, fighting crappy groups at just 100 yards. I used his rifle for a five shot group while we were out a couple of weeks ago, and it immediately became obvious that there was something wrong with the rig. After putting the torque wrench to it I found that the base screws weren't anywhere near tight enough, nor were the rings... I re-torqued the whole thing for him, now it shoots great. Even on my own rifles I've seen where the "I think it's tight enough" philosophy has caused me to scratch my head and waste ammo for a while in the past.

As for wind, it really isn't a huge factor at 100 yards. At that distance with my target load in my .308 Win (which doesn't buck wind as well as your .300 Win Mag) I'm only looking at 1.7 inches of windage, even with a 30 mph full-value wind (direct crosswind). Even then, if things stay consistent it is still possible to shoot small groups. Honestly though, if the wind gets strong enough (and it has for me on a couple of occasions) it can be a lot more trying to hold small groups, if only because the wind makes it hard for you to maintain a consistent position (I had this issue in 40mph gusting conditions one day, with lots of dust blowing around).

One more thing: be sure you aren't chasing your shots when shooting for group size! I apologize if this sounds entirely obvious, but I've seen it happen repeatedly to newer shooters, so I figure it's worth mentioning. What I mean here is that if you take your first shot aiming for the center of your target, and your shot hits somewhere other than the center of your target (lets just say one inch high and one inch left, for sake of example), you still want to aim for the center of the target on the remaining shots you take during that string. If you don't do this, and instead aim for your previous hit, your group size will open up (presumably by the margin that you were off-from-center to begin with, assuming you broke each shot clean on target). The time to make adjustments for misses is when you're shooting in the practical world... if you're shooting for group size it's great if you can have everything in the bullseye, but that's more a factor of adjusting your zero, and adjusting for conditions. Ultimately, you must aim at the same spot every time you fire if you want to shoot your best possible group.

As for ammo, make sure you're shooting some quality stuff, even if you need to use factory "match" ammo. You won't really know what you and your rifle are capable of if you're shooting ammo that simply isn't capable of performing along with the rest of the system. Federal Gold Medal Match ammo is my usual choice when I'm running factory ammo.

Finally, practice your form at home. Dry firing can tell you quite a bit about how you're releasing the shot in many cases, and might help you diagnose some problems with your form. Nevertheless, flinch can be an issue when live-firing at the range. The .300 Win Mag can be a bit punishing cartridge to shoot, particularly in a light rifle, and recoil anticipation can wreak havoc on your shooting game. It's an insidious problem that you may not even realize you're having, but it can creep up on you after a long range session with a shoulder-bruising rifle.

Finally, and this is important, if you still aren't seeing results, and haven't previously "proven" the rifle, find an experienced and competent shooter and see what they can do with it! Hunting-grade rifles have come a long way over the years, but you want to eliminate the possibility that an equipment problem is causing the large groups, rather than a human problem. So, if things aren't working right, get someone of known shooting ability to try it out. If they shoot a group in the .5's, you can feel competent in your system. If they can't keep it inside of 2 inches, the equipment may be the issue. One of the first things I was taught when I was learning to instruct shooters was to try their gear out if they're having a consistent problem with it. For example: one shooter in an academy class a few years ago was having a consistent double-feed issue with her pistol. For a couple of weeks this shooter struggled as instructors erroneously told her that the problem was caused by "limp wristing" the pistol. Eventually another instructor arrogantly tried the pistol to "prove" this fact to the recruit, and suddenly had the same problem... closer examination led to the conclusion that the extractor was damaged on the pistol. Oops! A simple mechanical problem was being blamed on a novice shooter who wasn't actually at fault for the malfunctions, and a lot of time, effort, and heartache were wasted on that issue!

Anyway, I hope some of that was helpful!

You guys never cease to amaze me. Easily one of the most helpful sites on the internet, at least as far as I know. If anyone needs help where I can actually contribute with authority, i.e. upland hunting, waterfowling, dog training, skiing or avalanche safety, please please please PM me!

Anyhow, all of this stuff is great. I finally found a 180g bullet the rifle seems to like, allowing me to consistently shoot 1MOA groups of three rounds. Yes, to many of your points, I don't claim t shoot 1/2" MOA--but I have shot 1/2" groups. I claim to shoot 1" groups prone now, 2" sitting with bipod. At 300 yards I am now 2.5" groups prone, so I feel like I'm chugging along towards my goal of being an effective hunter at longer distances.

So in short, thanks to you guys, I think I have graduated from "the suck" to "nothing special"!

 

[DanSavage]

When I get zero'd with a intended hunting round I'll make a couple more trips back to the range to study and adjust sights dead on for that cold bore shot. With top quality ammo and a good setup you should be able to nail a dime with your first shot. I've had over 90% hits on wood chucks out to 500 yards with my Savage .308.

 

[DroidSniper]

You need to check out the Sniper 101 video on youtube from TiborasaurusRex - YouTube