Rifle Scopes Going from high end to low end scopes...I had no idea what I was taking for granted (open discussion)

[LunaCustomGuns]

So I worked for a high end long rifle manufacturer in sales. While there I was issued a rifle with a great Kahles K624i scope. Working there exposed me to so much more of the shooting sports world, especially long range shooting.

This last weekend was the first time in a long time that I broke out an older, lower end hunting specific scope on top of a plain jane scout style rifle because I did not finish setting up my Bergara HMR in time. It's not a bad little scope, its an older Burris Short Mag 4.5-14, decent glass, nothing wrong with it at all. But now that I have been using such high end scopes for so long, I realized that I took so much for granted that I forgot about. Simple adjustments take so much longer, the clarity at higher magnifications is lacking, light gathering sucks, the edges of the scope have a fish eye effect, the eye box and parallax are unforgiving, among other small things.

But to keep perspective, for 80% of hunters out there, this scope is perfect for their needs, and had I never known any better, I would be perfectly happy with it. I won't say that I am jaded at all because that is too harsh and I don't want to imply that the scope sucks by any means, but man, now I understand better than ever before why it just makes sense to save your money and get the best glass you can get for your needs. Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns with glass but I think with what companies are doing these days, you can get some great scopes for $1000, not every one needs a Kahles, but I think lots of people out there have no idea what they are missing out on by just spending a little bit more money on glass.

What have been your experiences? What epiphany's have you had with glass specifically?

 

[koshkin]

I largely agree with you (I should probably do a proper article on this). I think the sweetspot of practical performance for precision scope right now is in the $1000-$1800 range with scopes like Vortex PST Gen II, Burris XTR II, Athlon Ares and Cronus, Delta Stryker, etc.

Unless you are putting your ass on a line or have money to spend, it is very difficult for me right now to recommend a $3k+ scope for most people. The way my recommendations have been going lately is that if you want the best, get TT. If you want something lighter get the AMG. Otherwise, Athlon Cronus and Delta Stryker are really compelling.

If you want to stay at $1k mark, PST Gen II 3-15x44 punches way above its weight class.

If you want to stay under $1k, SWFA SS 3-15x42 and SS HD 3-9x42 scopes can do most of what most of us need to do with fewer bells and whistles, but very solid optomechanical performance.

Athlon Ares BTR and ETR are somewhat new. I've had the BTR for a while and I am very happy with it. I just received the ETR and once I beat it up some more, I'll form an opinion, but it looks promising.

With hunting scopes, it is the same thing. If you can drop $3k and not blink, get a Leica Magnus. For the rest of us, Razor HD LH in the $600-$900 range is going to knock your socks off.

ILya

 

[LunaCustomGuns]

What are your thoughts on mid range "cross-over" scopes? For example the Delta Stryker gets some great reviews, except one consistent gripe is its low light performance. Do you have a good recommendation for a scope(s) that stradles the line between long range hunting and long range target well?

 

[Covertnoob5]

What are your thoughts on mid range "cross-over" scopes? For example the Delta Stryker gets some great reviews, except one consistent gripe is its low light performance. Do you have a good recommendation for a scope(s) that stradles the line between long range hunting and long range target well?

Amg

 

[spife7980]

Ignorance is bliss.

I find myself getting upset when I have to look through a friends cheap scope like the vortex crossfire or bushnell ar line etc. when I invite them out now that I know there are greener pastures.

 

[LunaCustomGuns]

Ignorance is bliss.

I find myself getting upset when I have to look through a friends cheap scope like the vortex crossfire or bushnell ar line etc. when I invite them out now that I know there are greener pastures.

Exactly what I was experiencing.

 

[patriot07]

Amg

AMG is truly the ultimate crossover scope IMHO

That being said, I'm surprised to hear the comment above about the stryker. I haven't looked through one, but I have owned a cronus, which is similar, and I think the complaint about low light is likely due to the high magnification. I'd like to see someone set it to 20x or 15x or 12x and compare it to another scope in the same price range set at the same magnification and then tell me they don't handle low light well. Just because other scopes don't go past 18x, 20x, 24x, etc. and the cronus/stryker go to 29x/30x does mean they're worse in low light - it just means there are optical limitations at that mag level. JMHO, I'm no expert.

 

[koshkin]

I have both versions of the Stryker and low light performance is quite good on these and quite good for the money. I have had a chance to compare it against a variety of other scopes, for what it is worth.

ILya

 

[hk dave]

My greatest regret was buying my first high end $3K+ scope many years ago. Before that, I was quite happy with a $300 Nikon or Leupold. Couldn't imagine why I'd want more....

Well so much for that.

 

[Andrew1182]

It’s like a bad drug habit.

 

[TanktheFrank]

I've been working my way up, starting with 90's Simmons on deer rifles handed down, to Primary Arms, Entry Level Vortex, and now I'm on my second PST. Razor Gen 2 or S&B PM 2 will be my next, but that's not going to be anytime soon.

I've found at this point that I look down on some of the scopes that I cut my teeth on, on the range and in the woods. With that being said, I dont look down on the owners of said scopes, I just wont stick them on my rifle.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Nobody gives a shit you went from living on the East Side to living under a bridge.

 

[pmclaine]

Scopes are scopes.

I have S&B, Premier, USO, Unertl that cost me lots o' money.

Lately Im finding I really enjoy a simple 3-9X Leupold with capped turrets and a mil dot reticle.

Shooting the simple scope Im looking at bigger targets and going for hits rather than when I shoot the other scopes getting upset because I cant keep bullets to tiny groups.

The Leupold is probably the most rugged scope because once set at zero nothing is moved, its just an aluminum tube sight.

Is it better than the high end scopes - no way - is it enjoyable - fuck yeah.

 

[fdkay]

I can't live in the high priced world, my three most expensive scopes are an IOR 3-18x42, Bushnell LRTSi 4.5-18 and the Sightron 4.5-24 SVSSED.
I have an old B&L Elite 3000 4-12 hunting scope.
I used to be very proud of it, as it was, at the time, the most money I had ever considered paying for a scope. Ath the time, Leupold vari-x III tactical scopes were going for around 550 bucks
The B&L just works, once set, it holds zero. You just have to keep in mind, while the adjustments are "fingertip adjustable", they are really intended to be zeroed for MPBR and used in the field.
I just bought a Mueller Tac II Gen II, as it was on sale (199 shipped). I have an older Gen 1 around the house somewhere, I bought it before I knew anything about matching adjustments and reticles (at the time, that was very rare).
It is still a mis-matched mil-moa scope, but damn, the glass is nice, the adjustments sharp and tactile and it has a parallax adjustment. It now sits on my Dad's hunting rifle (passed on to me), a Savage LA with a McGowen 6.5x55 barrel.

There are still places for inexpensive scopes. A buddy of mine hunts with a Rem 770 in .243 with the crappy package scope. He fills his tag every year.

 

[patriot07]

There are still places for inexpensive scopes. A buddy of mine hunts with a Rem 770 in .243 with the crappy package scope. He fills his tag every year.

It's all about the usage, right? I have buddies who fill their tag every year with iron sights on their pre-64 winchester model 94 rifles in the woods of east texas.

If you're shooting small targets far away, a good scope is a big help in being successful. And it makes the experience much, much more pleasant.

 

[LunaCustomGuns]

I can't live in the high priced world, my three most expensive scopes are an IOR 3-18x42, Bushnell LRTSi 4.5-18 and the Sightron 4.5-24 SVSSED.
I have an old B&L Elite 3000 4-12 hunting scope.
I used to be very proud of it, as it was, at the time, the most money I had ever considered paying for a scope. Ath the time, Leupold vari-x III tactical scopes were going for around 550 bucks
The B&L just works, once set, it holds zero. You just have to keep in mind, while the adjustments are "fingertip adjustable", they are really intended to be zeroed for MPBR and used in the field.
I just bought a Mueller Tac II Gen II, as it was on sale (199 shipped). I have an older Gen 1 around the house somewhere, I bought it before I knew anything about matching adjustments and reticles (at the time, that was very rare).
It is still a mis-matched mil-moa scope, but damn, the glass is nice, the adjustments sharp and tactile and it has a parallax adjustment. It now sits on my Dad's hunting rifle (passed on to me), a Savage LA with a McGowen 6.5x55 barrel.

There are still places for inexpensive scopes. A buddy of mine hunts with a Rem 770 in .243 with the crappy package scope. He fills his tag every year.

This is great, thanks for contributing. It really is amazing how much innovation has been coming out at all levels in the scope game. It is good to keep perspective. In fact the Burris I was talking about in the original post was just sent back to Burris for warranty yesterday and in the interim I put a OLD 3-9 Nikon Monarch on the rife I forgot I had in my spare parts box. I forgot how crisp and clear the picture is and started reminiscing about some of the deer that ended up in its crosshairs.

 

[BurnOut]

For me, the biggest difference between "good" glass and "it'll do" glass is when you spend a looooooong time on it. For the average white-tail type hunting rifle, a middling Leupold or similar will leave little to be desired. By and large, you're not going to spend all THAT much time on the scope, your target is relatively large, and not all that far out... maybe a few hundred yards.

For varmint guns, though, it's a different story altogether... spending a couple hours at a stretch on the glass, you notice EVERYTHING about it. Any deficiencies become very apparent, and image quality is almost central to your world at that point. The ability to tell the difference between a stretched-out prairie dog and a lump of cow manure at 500 yards is the difference between blowing up a critter and, well, shooting the shit.

 

[Glassaholic]

But to keep perspective, for 80% of hunters out there, this scope is perfect for their needs, and had I never known any better, I would be perfectly happy with it.

I've been trying to drive this home for a while now, if you are perfectly happy with your scope (regardless of what it is) and it gets the job done for you, then there is no need to think about upgrading; be happy with what you have and learn to compensate for its limitations.

 

[bman940]

wjm, You are spot on. It's all up to what the user wants to accomplish with their optic. I have a lot of friends with way more $ than sense. Some have $2K scopes on $1000 AR's because that is what was recommended to them. One buddy walked out of a gun store with a $1500 fixed 4X Acog on his deer rifle. First day out he missed a buck at 400 yards. I tried to tell him right tool for the right job. He now has a MONARCH 5 3-15 on his rifle and is much happier. Doesn't matter what scope you pick, just make sure it's one that will check your boxes and meets the dollars you have budgeted for an optic. Nothing worse than not waiting for what you want and buying twice but it certainly happens to most of us one time or another.

 

[RNWRKNP]

Nikon Monarch worked for a long damn time and I was happy with it. Kids are gone now, little extra cash and I made the mistake of joining Snipers Hide??? Just funnin Frank? Now it’s sworavski and Nightforce but I am still considering Athelon for the value and function they bring to the table and Nikon is still one of the best values for the money.JM2C

 

[steve123]

The epiphany I got was that a scope with versatility has a lot of merit in most ways.

I'm oldish so I was raised with the fixed 4x, then went to the 3-9 variables, the 4-12, then the 6-18 power varmint scopes, then high magnification benchrest scopes with 1/8th moa turrets.

11 years ago, discovering FFP and holding over and off, it was almost like I had leaped ahead in a time warp. Long story short, because I tried all the older FFP and SFP scopes I quickly found that overall versatility was my bent.

Yuh know, scopes that aren't too heavy, too long, have close focus for airgun or 22 use, have a lot of travel, are illuminated, with .2 mil reticles and high speed knobs, with zero stop, can be used for almost any type of rifle shooting successfully.

Those cheaper scopes are catching up to the expensive ones. For instance that Athlon Talos BTR 4-14x44 gets the job done for most of my uses, it's $300 or less.

On the other hand those S&B's are too nice to let go of!

LOL, I have had some really crappy scopes though, $40 3-9's, etc. I'll leave those to the "buy a 20 box for deer season, good for a decade, minute of pie plate" types.

 

[lancetkenyon]

I started with the $100-300 scopes for years. I bought my 1st "expensive" scope for my 1st custom rifle about 18 years ago, a Leupold Vari-X III 6.5-20×50. Then, a few years later, a Vortex Viper HS 4-16×50, then another.

My biggest leap forward in spending was buying my first "high end FFP" scope. A used SWFA SS HD 5-20×50. Paid $900, and was hooked. I have gone through several others now. Vortex Razor Gen I 5-20×50, Steiner T5Xi 5-25×56, Vortex Razor Gen II 4.5-27×56, and been able to shoot behind most of the other top tier scopes as well. NF NXS, NF ATACR, several NF ATACR F1, Steiner M5Xi, several different Swaros, several Zeiss, a Hensoldt (truly amazing), several Vortex Razor AMG, several Leupolds, etc.

My personal stable of optics is quite impressive in my opinion. And Indo not regret having a lot of money tied up in them with the amount of time I spend behind optics every year. I could not go back to mediocre glass now.

 

[Dakotabob]

lancetkenyon of those incredible scopes you list which are your preferred optics presently. That's quite a selection. I own the Razor Gen 1 5-20X50 and love it, although the eyebox is not very forgiving at higher magnification for me. It's presently on a bergara HMR14 in 300WM (for elk).
Koshkin you mention the Razor LH for a lightweight hunting scope. I am looking for a lightweight scope for that purpose (whitetail) for a Tikka CTR 308. I would be grateful for more information re: that scope. I have not found many reviews online. I missed a major sale on a refurb and would be interested in learning more re: why you recommend that scope. Thank you both very much

 

[Milo 2.5]

And Indo not regret having a lot of money tied up in them with the amount of time I spend behind optics every year. I could not go back to mediocre glass now.

Yeah, and every time a guy goes up a tier level, the scopes you own are no longer good enough. I replaced all my NF nxs's with Kahles and NF F1's, now the guys I shoot with are on a TT push, this will not end well for the pocketbook.

 

[Falar]

I recently decided to "take a step down". I don't see myself buying another scope in the 3-4k range when what sits in the 2-3k range is more than I'll need.

I have been obsessed with German glass for a while but recently gave the ATACR line an honest look. It all started because I wanted to try some of the newer reticles. I'm not well versed enough as a lot of guys here to nit pick the glass quality to crazy details. Would I describe the Japanese glass as "just as good"? No. But in real use I'll never know the difference. I still see a lot of "back to the manufacturer" problems with the sub-1500 dollar stuff so none of that interests me enough to move out of the sweet spot that I see in the 2-3k range.

 

[m6z]

Quality, features and value are continuously improving. Now just about everyone has 10 mil per rev turrets and a zero stop standard on their tactical offerings. You couldn't say that five years ago.

 

[Bender]

Dtros, here on the hide took a step down and made a thread about it. I feel just be proficient with what you have and who cares. I don’t have a henney or a NF... but I do have a new truck, 29’ motor home and a ski boat if you wanna measure wanks....jk. My point is... who gives a fuck. Just go shoot and don’t be a dick to people. Unless they are commies.

 

[supercorndogs]

Dtros, here on the hide took a step down and made a thread about it. I feel just be proficient with what you have and who cares. I don’t have a henney or a NF... but I do have a new truck, 29’ motor home and a ski boat if you wanna measure wanks....jk. My point is... who gives a fuck. Just go shoot and don’t be a dick to people. Unless they are commies.

All the cool kids have a Nightforce, go play with your boat and motor home nerd. LOL. Just kidding. I sure do like what there is from 500-2000 anymore.

 

[Basher]

I somewhat made the step down as well. I had, for awhile, an S&B PMII and a Vortex AMG. Loved both, sold both, wish I still had both in a lot of ways, haha. But just by happenstance, I've gone all Bushnell. At present, I have an LRHSi from the GAP deal (may list that one and pick up another LRTSi, still not entirely sure), an LRTSi, and a DMRII Pro (hence the "somewhat" step down) that I just got off the forums for a song. None of them are what I'd consider my dream optics, as there are features and qualities the higher end glass possesses that I find attractive, I decided that I'd rather have great glass on all of my rifles instead of mind-blowing glass on just one. The alternative is to sell a rifle or three and just have the one, but you can't shoot .223 from an AI, so that's a no-go for me.

Anyway, for all three optics, I'm in for just under $2800. That's just barely an S&B, or an AMG with a few hundred to spare towards something lower for a second rifle. Despite that, Bushnell has proven themselves to have excellent glass for their price range, repeatable turrets, and an uncluttered but still highly usable holdover reticle. Will I eventually move back up the chain? Absolutely, I have no doubt that I will at some point. I got to look through a Minox ZP5 5-25x MR4, NF 7-35x56 F1 Mil-C, and Kahles K525i SKMR3 at the TPRC match this past weekend, so the urge is back again, haha. But for now, given where my budget's at, I'm perfectly happy.

 

[gconnoyer]

100% correct. Once you actually figure out what good glass is, its HARD to go back to "good enough" glass. I hate being sensible and knowing that I should downgrade on some rifles.

I've had NF, S&B, Khales, Leupold, Zeiss, Bushnell, BSA (EARLY airgun days), everything from $50-$3600.
I do try and limit myself to keeping reasonable priced glass on guns I wont use or test the limits of though.

My savage Mk2 .22lr has a $250 Burris MTAC on it, and for what i do with the gun, I cant justify upgrading.
My Savage 223 has a used SWFA 5-20 on it that I am THRILLED with for the cost.
My Bighorn 308 used to have a S&B PM2 on it, but since I'm retiring it as my match gun its getting sold and getting an SWFA 5-20.
My Bighorn Dasher used to have a NF 7-35 ATACR on it, but IMO they dont compare to the S&B glass quality so I just picked up a new PM2 with the LRR reticle.

Its all about your wallet and the intended use of the rifle. I would LOVE to have PM2s on every gun I own, but I'm not rich and I cant justify it.

 

[bigdaddydmd]

I'm kinda of stuck at the mid tier glass level due to financial budgeting. Would like to jump to the Razr gen II, AMG, NF, Cronus level of glass, but so far the PST gen II level is working well for me. I run what I brung so to speak. I can make hits out to past 1k and its not the glass holding me back from being a good shooter, its myself and fundamentals. The old "its the Indian, not the bow" adage. I could never go back to entry level optics as I like the FFP, mil/mil, zero stop options that come with the mid level optics and am concerned if I make the jump to the big boy level I wouldn't want to go back to the mid level stuff.

 

[RTH1800]

Like many of you I am sure, I am often ask to sight a rifle or sort out an issue with one. Man, there is some real low quality gear out there. We get spoiled ..

 

[Prebanpaul]

I went up and up and up and now kinda back down. I started off with the standard Leupold Var-x3, slid into the Varx6 and went to Vortex PST FFP. First Zero stop. From there I moved onto the Mark 6 Leupolds. Now I have a Nightforce ATacR and a Schmidt PMII. Those are on my high-end comp guns. I don't have the money I used too, so now I am replacing all my other guns with Burris XTR 2. Calibers for the Burris is 375HH,45-70, (2) AR-15, 17hmr and 22 LR. For me, those are short to medium range rifles and the XTR line gives me everything I need and can afford. So I am headed down the hill now.

 

[JWG]

People are very adaptable. Use those cheap scopes for a while, and they will be fine until you get your hands on some good glass again. For a more jawdropping example, ask someone who owns a Z06 or a Viper and daily's it if it seems much less radical nowadays in the "go" department vs. their first time in one.

 

[lancetkenyon]

I will get a "family photo" of the optics when I get back home from work. It is an addiction for sure. Glad I don't drink, smoke, never done drugs of any kind, have no truck payment, and house payment is really reasonable.

Heck, even my 10/22s have SWFA SS 3-15x42s on them!

 

[Topwater]

Hey, folks. I’m brand new here and thought this might be an appropriate post to break the ice. Being relatively new to benchrest competitions, I have lots to learn about optics. My newest glass is a March 10x60x52. All I can say is : WOW. It’s going to be tough go back to shooting my lesser outfits. Good shooting to you all.

 

[Badfinger]

Great post, I have been lusting and saving for what I consider an expensive scope, a NF 7-35. I even typed in I'll take it once and stopped just short of sending. The issue is when I bought my rifle the only scopes I had at the time was a Vortex 6-24 and a $400 Athlon 8-34. I tried both and like the Athlon and so it sits on my rifle today. Most of my shooting is 100 yds and as such I don't make many adjustments and that Athlon work perfectly for my shooting. I might get that new scope but so far I flinch every time I try to pull the trigger

 

[XTREM HTR16]

I started my hunting in 1981 with a Marlin 30-30 and a cheap 4x scope.
Hunting in Indiana for decades meant a 12 gauge slug gun, then a TC Omega muzzleloader with an old Leupold VXII 2-7x33.
Fast forward to 2006 and I started using rifles for deer hunting in KY. I upgraded to Leupold VXIII 2.5-8x36 and 3.5-10x40.
Then in 2012 I became acquainted with a certain guy in Montana who guided me into buying my first custom made precision hunting rifle, a GAP non-typical in .260. I upgraded again to a Leupold VX-6 2-12x42 and was very happy.
He then sold me on the GAP Extreme Hunter, their 6.5 SAUM, and I was able to afford a S&B PMII 10x42.
Since going with that S&B, I have slowly replaced the scope on my other hunting rifles with the S&B Klassik 3-12x42 precision hunter which has a 3.2 mil elevation dial. That is all I need for up to 600 yard shots, and the P3 mildot reticle is very similar to the standard duplex I used for decades.
So I remain on the lookout for those precision hunter scopes when they’re listed on the classifieds.
Although, I would like to try a NF ATACR 4-16x42 mil just to see how it compares. Maybe someday....

 

[360precision]

My first higher end scope is one I still use on my .308 hunting rig. It is a Leupold mark 4 er-t ffp m5. It has worked very well for what I intended to use it for which is taking shots within 600 yards while hunting. I recently have had a full blown prs rig built by sawtooth rifles and I really want to step up my glass game before I even shoot it . I really want a nightforce atacr f1 7-35, but my budget is more in the vortex razor hd gen 2 area. My biggest problem is I have never been behind either scope.

 

[TheGerman]

Let's not forget about the benefit of being able to ridicule people with cheap ass scopes on their rifle, either.

 

[jbuck88]

I think I’ve had plenty of alpha scopes, but a $350 Leupold works for 80% of my hunting needs.

Beside the glass clarity

The biggest thing that I notice is the 1/4” clicks might mean 1/8” or 1” on “cheaper” but once zero’d they generally hold zero just fine and are good to go. Of course they need rezeroed more often.