Rifle Scopes Good BDC Scope?

M

MyM40A2

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Minuteman
Jul 27, 2011
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Pasadena CA
www.csvca.com
#1
I have been out of the shooting world for over 6 years or more. So I am not up on the newest tech that has come out. What is a good quality scope that has a BDC for 308 that would be under $500

It will be used for hunting and will be getting beat on pretty regularly. So I'm not looking for a bench type scope. I need something that is meant for hunting.

Some form of lighted reticle or illuminated style like the Firefly system would be preferable as I will be hunting at night for Coyote. I don't care if it is battery operated or if you have to pre light it like the Firefly. Just as long as it can be lit at night one way or another. I do own a scope with the Firefly reticle but would like other options to look at.

3-12x would be about the right magnification.

I'm not interested in NV scopes. this scope needs to do double duty easily.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer me.
 
#4
Re: Good BDC Scope?

My-
are you the kind of guy for whom the microwave is too slow?

Now a few questions for you-
Have you ever used a BDC?
Have you ever used a lit ret at night?

I have to both and don't own either now.

So maybe the reason the answers are slow in coming is those who have read your questions can't in good faith recommend either or.

Justa thought
 
#8
Re: Good BDC Scope?

I'm thinking Vortex, but in all honesty if it's durability and feature loaded you're looking for, you're going to have to come up with a bigger budget.

Leupold is another option, especially if you're mil/LEO and can get the discount.

Both have custom BDC dials as an option.
 
#9
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MyM40A2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a single reply?

Nobody will talk about a scope around here unless it costs over 1k? </div></div>

Maybe because what you are asking for does not exist. At least in the sense of actually working. BDC's like the Firefly reticles are gimmicks that are marketed to the uninformed. Passing fad if you will. The Firefly is gone because it was junk. The BDC is a good concept but there are far too many variables for them to work as advertised. JMHO
 
#11
Re: Good BDC Scope?

Yeah, I will agree with the rest of the above posters. I've got several scopes with the BDC reticles, but not because I wanted the BDC style, but because that's what I happened to get a good deal on. I use them all as a regular reticle and don't use the BDC part of it at all. I've tried using them, and I've found at longer ranges they don't work for me. They don't calculate for the wind, or any other condition variables, and I've found that I can't always hit what I want with them at longer ranges, where as I can dial in and hit pretty close to where I'm expecting without a problem.

That being said, in your budget I'd look for a Nikon Monarch in your preferred power range. I've got a couple of Monarchs with the BDC, and while it's my least favorite BDC I've ever used, I really like the scope and it's got decent glass and it tracks great, and seems pretty durable.

With the BDC on it, the circles are huge, so they are a little distracting, and then ontop of that at 600 yards the circles are over 6". How can you hit something very accurately when your aiming point is a 6" zone? That's bigger than a ground hog, not that it works well enough for you to hit a groundhog with it anyway. However, the turrets work great. The only thing I think you'd be giving up here is an illuminated reticle, as I'm not sure if they make them with illuminated reticles or not.
 
#12
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowr1der</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

That being said, in your budget I'd look for a Nikon Monarch in your preferred power range. I've got a couple of Monarchs with the BDC, and while it's my least favorite BDC I've ever used, I really like the scope and it's got decent glass and it tracks great, and seems pretty durable.

</div></div>

Nikon makes a great scope with a BDC reticle. However, if you do use the BDC, it must be used in conjunction with the Spot On Ballistic Match Program. This program allows you to input all of the environmental conditions (including wind speed and direction),and all ballistic data into the program. The output is a shooting solution for the BDC reticle. It will have the distances each part of the reticle represents at a certain magnification per the exact load you are firing (and the environmental factors... altitude, temperature, humidity, and wind speed/direction). I have used this system to hit 6" steel plates out to 400 yards. I have also seen other shooters use it out to 600 yards! I works great!

Chase B.
 
#13
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sweet17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pride Fowler makes a nice 3-9x42 with a ballistic reticle that's pretty interesting for about $650 if you shop around. Check it out at www.rapidreticle.com </div></div>


Mines gotta go back, it wont adjust anymore..


CH
 
#14
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _Shay_ ©</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why BDC? Why not some sort of mil reticle that can be used for more than 1 load, etc? BDC is very limiting.



</div></div>

Mil Dot - have em and used em. Looking for something different. Also.... Depending on the size of the game I am hunting and the distance I am shooting at the mil dot will cover the entire animal( or the majority of it anyway)

I was just interested in a BDC because they are supposedly calibrated for 223 and 308 loads which is exactly what I hunt with. I can use the standard loads which is what the reticle is supposed to be based on. So I was interested in checking on out for hunting.
 
#15
Re: Good BDC Scope?

BDC knobs are cool but not necessary. Just know your drops. Exposed 5mil turn knobs for instance will get 308 to 600 in one turn.

If you like leupold stuff check out their new VXR SPR Patrol whatever scope, it's 3-9 w/TMR reticule, illuminated and mil mil knobs for 579 (I think).
 
#16
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My-
are you the kind of guy for whom the microwave is too slow?

Now a few questions for you-
Have you ever used a BDC?
Have you ever used a lit ret at night?

I have to both and don't own either now.

So maybe the reason the answers are slow in coming is those who have read your questions can't in good faith recommend either or.

Justa thought </div></div>

BDC - No but I am interested in checking one out.
Lit Reticle - Yes, I hunt with a Firefly reticle. I have it on my main 22-250 for Coyote and Bobcats. Works great and helps me pick up the prey at night which is when 90% of my hunting is done.

as for not being able to recommend one in good faith - Fair enough

That being said, why would you not recommend one? The idea behind the reticle seems sound to me. But since I have not used one I have no idea as to the benifit of one.
 
#17
Re: Good BDC Scope?

You actually like the firefly?
The idea to me seems unreliable and the reticle was extremely large. It seemed to clutter the scope more than any reticle I've ever seen.
Nikon BDC is a decent scope. But then so is Burris. Not sure they offer lighted reticles though. Go to a few of the optic manufacturers websites and look over the specs.
 
#19
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You actually like the firefly?
The idea to me seems unreliable and the reticle was extremely large. It seemed to clutter the scope more than any reticle I've ever seen.
Nikon BDC is a decent scope. But then so is Burris. Not sure they offer lighted reticles though. Go to a few of the optic manufacturers websites and look over the specs.

</div></div>

I picked it up the first year they came out and the lighted reticle still works perfectly like the day I got it. Still as bright as new. Plus you can make it as bright or as faint as you want just by the amount of light you shine on the reticle before the hunt. And it lasts long enough for a stand, sometimes two.


I love the Firefly for what I use it for. Which is night hunting for Coyote and bobcat. It works perfectly for that application. Yes the duplex lines are thick. But they work perfect for bracketing an animal on a snap shot or quick acquisition type shot. Which is more often then not the only shot you get at a dog. They also work good for bracketing a moving animal.

It would make for a crappy target scope. But for hunting which is what it was designed for it works great for me.
 
#21
Re: Good BDC Scope?

Burris XTRs and Fullfield II's with ballistic plex. New the Fullfield II's are in your price range, used maybe the XTR line. The scopes come with general info for different weight bullets in a lot of calibers. The substentions or secondary cross hairs (whatever they're called) Are for certain drops in inches. like -7 then -14 then -26.

There are also programs that will help you plug in your fps #'s etc and tell you what ranges the secondary lines are (don't know the names though, need to find out).

I have a 7mmSTW shooting 140 grain Nosler ballistic tips that is zeroed at 300, the second cross is 380, third is 520, 4th is 650, and the part where the thin hair meets the post is 750. The gunsmith who I use and buy my bullets from helped me work this out, he has the same exact gun which comes in handy. My STW is +2.4 at 100, +3 at 200, 300 yd zero, -7 at 400, -12 at 450, -19 at 500.

Mine has worked great out to 450 but would not work nearly as well without the smiths help. The general info provided with the scope will get you close but I wouldn't try to go out and shoot game at very long range without knowing whats really going on with your gear. It matches up real well with certain factory 7mm08, 308 and 270 though.

I have four Burris scopes now, the Tac30, two FFII's and an XTR. The only problem out of any of them so far was a mushy turret on the XTR that is being fixed for free right now with their lifetime warranty.

Look here for more info
Burris ballistic plex

LOOK HERE TOO
 
#22
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Meat Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MyM40A2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a single reply?

Nobody will talk about a scope around here unless it costs over 1k? </div></div>

Maybe because what you are asking for does not exist. At least in the sense of actually working. BDC's like the Firefly reticles are gimmicks that are marketed to the uninformed. Passing fad if you will. The Firefly is gone because it was junk. The BDC is a good concept but there are far too many variables for them to work as advertised. JMHO </div></div>

Hmmmm....

First off the Firefly is Not a BDC. It has nothing to do with a BDC. It was never marketed as a BDC. Two totally different features and concepts. It is a form of an illumintated reticle. And as for the Firefly being gone....well it is still in the current catalog and for sale at this exact moment in time at nearly every single place that sells Bushnell scopes.

uninformed....
 
#23
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowr1der</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, I will agree with the rest of the above posters. I've got several scopes with the BDC reticles, but not because I wanted the BDC style, but because that's what I happened to get a good deal on. I use them all as a regular reticle and don't use the BDC part of it at all. I've tried using them, and I've found at longer ranges they don't work for me. They don't calculate for the wind, or any other condition variables, and I've found that I can't always hit what I want with them at longer ranges, where as I can dial in and hit pretty close to where I'm expecting without a problem.

That being said, in your budget I'd look for a Nikon Monarch in your preferred power range. I've got a couple of Monarchs with the BDC, and while it's my least favorite BDC I've ever used, I really like the scope and it's got decent glass and it tracks great, and seems pretty durable.

With the BDC on it, the circles are huge, so they are a little distracting, and then ontop of that at 600 yards the circles are over 6". How can you hit something very accurately when your aiming point is a 6" zone? That's bigger than a ground hog, not that it works well enough for you to hit a groundhog with it anyway. However, the turrets work great. The only thing I think you'd be giving up here is an illuminated reticle, as I'm not sure if they make them with illuminated reticles or not. </div></div>

I have seen the reticle you are talking about with the small circles below the main horizontal line for different ranges. I believe that is the predator bdc reticle. I agree with what you are saying about the circles. Those seem like a PITA and like they would just be in the way all the time.
 
#24
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Burris XTRs and Fullfield II's with ballistic plex. New the Fullfield II's are in your price range, used maybe the XTR line. The scopes come with general info for different weight bullets in a lot of calibers. The substentions or secondary cross hairs (whatever they're called) Are for certain drops in inches. like -7 then -14 then -26.

There are also programs that will help you plug in your fps #'s etc and tell you what ranges the secondary lines are (don't know the names though, need to find out).

I have a 7mmSTW shooting 140 grain Nosler ballistic tips that is zeroed at 300, the second cross is 380, third is 520, 4th is 650, and the part where the thin hair meets the post is 750. The gunsmith who I use and buy my bullets from helped me work this out, he has the same exact gun which comes in handy. My STW is +2.4 at 100, +3 at 200, 300 yd zero, -7 at 400, -12 at 450, -19 at 500.

Mine has worked great out to 450 but would not work nearly as well without the smiths help. The general info provided with the scope will get you close but I wouldn't try to go out and shoot game at very long range without knowing whats really going on with your gear. It matches up real well with certain factory 7mm08, 308 and 270 though.

I have four Burris scopes now, the Tac30, two FFII's and an XTR. The only problem out of any of them so far was a mushy turret on the XTR that is being fixed for free right now with their lifetime warranty.

Look here for more info
Burris ballistic plex

LOOK HERE TOO </div></div>

Thank you,

The Balistic Plex is the reticle that basically got me interested in the idea of a BDC. What reticles do you have on your Burris scopes that you mentioned above? Any of them the Balistic Plex?

I just like the idea of having a direct point of aim that I can use on a regular basis out to maybe 400 yards. Of coarse I realize there is no way for these to be dead on with every rifle and every load. But I could load the recommended load at the specific fps that they recommend for the scope and use that load for hunting with that rifle/scope/load combo.

Like I said, it sounds like a good idea. I personally have no idea how well or how poorly they work.
 
#25
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Meat Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Maybe because what you are asking for does not exist. At least in the sense of actually working. BDC's like the Firefly reticles are gimmicks that are marketed to the uninformed. Passing fad if you will. The Firefly is gone because it was junk. <span style="color: #CC0000">The BDC is a good concept but there are far too many variables for them to work as advertised. JMHO</span> </div></div>

Mils in a crosshair represent a certain measurement, so do hash marks/subtensions in a ballistic plex/BDC...If the numbers are plugged in correctly then the hash marks work like they are supposed to. Knowing how to properly mil targets and knowing how to use mildots would be more accurate in most situations but BDC's (when used properly) are fast and accurate out to 500 yards and some BDC's are marked for 10mph crosswinds which is great for a lot of hunting applications and what the OP is looking for.

I don't know much about mil scopes so I don't post on those threads...JMHO

 
#26
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Optics Planet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowr1der</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

That being said, in your budget I'd look for a Nikon Monarch in your preferred power range. I've got a couple of Monarchs with the BDC, and while it's my least favorite BDC I've ever used, I really like the scope and it's got decent glass and it tracks great, and seems pretty durable.

</div></div>

Nikon makes a great scope with a BDC reticle. However, if you do use the BDC, it must be used in conjunction with the Spot On Ballistic Match Program. This program allows you to input all of the environmental conditions (including wind speed and direction),and all ballistic data into the program. The output is a shooting solution for the BDC reticle. It will have the distances each part of the reticle represents at a certain magnification per the exact load you are firing (and the environmental factors... altitude, temperature, humidity, and wind speed/direction). I have used this system to hit 6" steel plates out to 400 yards. I have also seen other shooters use it out to 600 yards! I works great!

Chase B.
</div></div>

Sounds great, too much work and not practical for me for hunting. If I was using it for target only I would love to have a balistic calc.

But for the type of hunting I do it is usually a quick shot opportunity only type situation which just would not allow for the time to input all the parameters that would be needed to find the shooting solution.

I would have loved to of had one when I was working up my scope calcs out to 700 yards when I first set up my 308. At the time she was a target only rifle and having a balistic calculator would have saved me a lot of time and work. But I'm glad I got her dialed in out to 700 the hard way. And I know it made me a better shooter by having to learn it all myself. But having a calc would have saved me a hell of a lot of ammo getting her dialed in.
wink.gif
 
#27
Re: Good BDC Scope?

Three of mine have the Ballistic plex. For anything out to 400 you will love the Burris. The Fullfield II's I have have worked great for me. Took a 6+ year old 8pt buck at over 450 yards right at dark. That one is a 4.5-14x42mm 1" tube. My XTR is 6-24x50mm 30mm tube and is on another level with glass quality but the 2 FFII's have given me zero problems hunting deer roughly 90's days a year for 10 years. The XTR is a Ballistic mildot ret. Ballistic plex below the cross and mil dot above, left and right. Going to have to learn how to use that, ought to be nice.

The FFII is no Nightforce or any other high end optic but great for the money if you ask me.

Look at this if you missed it earlier. You can get very good accuracy out to 400 easily with factory ammo (unless you just can't shoot haha)

INFO ON BALLISTIC PLEX
 
#28
Re: Good BDC Scope?

MyM-
When you say night hunting of coyotes and bobcats, just how dark is it? Do you use artifical illum?

I have used a wide variety of illuminated reticles from dusk to cant see my hand slapping my own damn face. I have used the trijicon 'isotope' dot as well.

My old assed eyes using a loopy no illum ret vs a younger guy on a illum one shooting at a 700 yard iron maiden. he got about 10 more minutes farther into pitch black than I did. but once it was dark he couldnt see the target.

My problem with the glow dot is the darker the backround and target the harder it is to find the buck behind the dot. The dot acts like a screen. My non illum reticle on 3.5X pushes the mildots in to make that bracket you spoke of. (I deer hunt during legal hunting hours, 1/2 hour before posted dawn and 1/2 hour after posted sunset.)

But I have NEVER had a illum dot work in THE dark, and yet to see anyone do so.

Now BDC- I had one on an old school MkIV 10X. For slap down it worked well enough but most here want better than minute of man in a scope. I use my scopes for everything from shooting ants to bucks. F-Class to sniper golf. BDC just isnt as versatile as 1/4moa or .1mil.

You will find a BDC logbook with temp band come-ups like 300+1 or 600-2 as no load can duplicate the BDC exactly. This is especially true if you shoot wide temp extremes or other areas at different altitudes.

So I found no advantage to having it and several drawbacks in more demanding formats, like F-Class.

Oh one more thing, don't know if anyone has mentioned it. Illuminated reticles cost extra so dropping that feature allows more money for better glass.

Just a thought
 
#29
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Meat Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Maybe because what you are asking for does not exist. At least in the sense of actually working. BDC's like the Firefly reticles are gimmicks that are marketed to the uninformed. Passing fad if you will. The Firefly is gone because it was junk. <span style="color: #CC0000">The BDC is a good concept but there are far too many variables for them to work as advertised. JMHO</span> </div></div>

Mils in a crosshair represent a certain measurement, so do hash marks/subtensions in a ballistic plex/BDC...If the numbers are plugged in correctly then the hash marks work like they are supposed to. Knowing how to properly mil targets and knowing how to use mildots would be more accurate in most situations but BDC's (when used properly) are fast and accurate out to 500 yards and some BDC's are marked for 10mph crosswinds which is great for a lot of hunting applications and what the OP is looking for.

I don't know much about mil scopes so I don't post on those threads...JMHO

</div></div>

Thank you,

I agree with you totally

I have a Mil Dot scope and am familiar with using it. It was perfect for target shooting. But I am out of practice with it and have not used it for 6 plus years or maybe even more.

I want something different for hunting. Something that is more point and shoot. Less thinking in a situation where you have 1 or maybe 2 seconds (if you are lucky) to take a shot it always a plus!


Fast and accurate out to 500 is EXACTLY what I am looking for. That is why I posted above that I would not mind working up a load that matches the exact load that the BDC is calibrated for.

Of coarse using a different load then what the scope manufacturer recommended is going to throw the entire BDC off. That is probably why some people say that it doesn't work. Well of coarse it doesn't if you do not use the load it was designed for. But in my case I DO plan to use the recommended load at the specific velocity that the BDC is calibrated for. You gotta put the square pegs in the square holes and the round pegs in the round holes or it just wont work correctly!
wink.gif
 
#30
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MyM-
When you say night hunting of coyotes and bobcats, just how dark is it? Do you use artifical illum?

I have used a wide variety of illuminated reticles from dusk to cant see my hand slapping my own damn face. I have used the trijicon 'isotope' dot as well.

My old assed eyes using a loopy no illum ret vs a younger guy on a illum one shooting at a 700 yard iron maiden. he got about 10 more minutes farther into pitch black than I did. but once it was dark he couldnt see the target.

My problem with the glow dot is the darker the backround and target the harder it is to find the buck behind the dot. The dot acts like a screen. My non illum reticle on 3.5X pushes the mildots in to make that bracket you spoke of. (I deer hunt during legal hunting hours, 1/2 hour before posted dawn and 1/2 hour after posted sunset.)

But I have NEVER had a illum dot work in THE dark, and yet to see anyone do so.

Now BDC- I had one on an old school MkIV 10X. For slap down it worked well enough but most here want better than minute of man in a scope. I use my scopes for everything from shooting ants to bucks. F-Class to sniper golf. BDC just isnt as versatile as 1/4moa or .1mil.

You will find a BDC logbook with temp band come-ups like 300+1 or 600-2 as no load can duplicate the BDC exactly. This is especially true if you shoot wide temp extremes or other areas at different altitudes.

So I found no advantage to having it and several drawbacks in more demanding formats, like F-Class.

Oh one more thing, don't know if anyone has mentioned it. Illuminated reticles cost extra so dropping that feature allows more money for better glass.

Just a thought </div></div>

I hunt from full moon to no moon and everything in between. Yes artificial light. That leaves us only 1-2 seconds to get a shot off before the yote scoots off.

I am looking for a BDC, it would be great if it could be illuminated. Something like the Firefly would work. I want the BDC for daylight stands and the Iluum reticle for nighttime. Having both in one scope would save me from having to use 2 scopes on one rifle (not practical) or form having to bring 2 separate rifles on the same hunt.
 
#31
Re: Good BDC Scope?

I finally found the chart so I could attempt to explain what I'm saying. The top left box is for non magnum-100 yd zero. Bottom left shows it for magnums with a 200 yd zero. It shows that the subtensions/hash marks represent the actual drop, in inches, no matter what caliber you are using. I'm sure I'm missing some points as I don't know everything about it, so it was nice to get the help I had from an expert with the same rifle and knowledge of the charts, velocities etc.

0 Crosshair
- 3.0 First sub line
-13.5 Second
-30.0 Third
-55.0 Where thin line meets post

bplex2.jpg

READ FINE PRINT

Now, you could try to mimic their loads represented here or you could run your hand load or your FGMM numbers through JBM-ballistic calculations-trajectory and find out what each hash mark would represent for your load.

Like I said earlier, the guy I went to (retired) helped me out a lot with it.

With a 300 yd zero on my 7mmSTW it is...

0=300yds
First sub=380yds
second =520
third=650


Done that way it is a lot more accurate than most people know. Bdc's get a bad rep from idiots who buy a scope with it, put any old 308 round in the gun and expect it to be on at 100, 200, 300, 400.

You could probably get real close out to 400 with a load very similar to what they list but there are a lot of variables. Barrel length, altitude etc etc etc.

I know BDC have their limits, I'm trying to learn making adjustments and not using hold overs also but the BDC's can be really handy when split seconds count like the OP mentioned

I hope this makes sense, I'm glad I had help with it from an expert with the same gun.

If you want to get the most out of it I suggest finding someone who knows the ins and outs a lot more than I do. I just know I like them for most of my hunting. Working on getting good at 500 + now so the BDC's will not be as handy for me with that.

Good luck
 
#32
Re: Good BDC Scope?

MyM-
You sound pretty set in your ways, but I will offer this-

I think the answer to the 'in the dark' question is you spotlight. Ambient light is unimportant, for the most part daylight rules still apply. Hunting with a spotlight is illegal here so I have not done any of that.

However I have done quite a bit of artifical light TARGET shooting with a wide variety shooters and their rigs. Can say based on all that the difference between the quick shot using a 'glow dot' and Front/First focal plane scopes dialed down to form a sort of aperture sight is a bit of training.

One cautionary point before continuing, as many a pistol shooter knows, you can't miss fast enough, so speed isn't everything.

Now with artifical light the need for the dot isn't great, I see the attraction, like a red dot day sight. I would point out that shooters who forgo the dot with artifical lights at night shoot tighter groups. Biggest reason is the primary focus should be on the reticle and the non glowing one forces you to look for so then at the reticle, nothing in the way of the target. The dot isn't hard to find and forces the shooter to look for his target.

But sounds like your mind is made up on having that dot.

Now about the BDC, it didn't gain it's less than beloved reputation because idiots used it but because very knowledgeable shooters have. Might be a sign of it's place in the fast and for keeps world that the military now calls for angular calibrated scope dials over linear ones. (thats moa and mil over yardage)

The BDC's continued attraction for most civilian shooters rests mainly with beginners. Ask more seasoned shooters their 300 yard comeup and they have it at the tip of their tongue, probably faster than the wife's birthday or the wedding anniversary!

Spotting 5moa on my dail vs the 3 on a BDC is no hinderance. Until we go past 500 yards I don't have to do anything but spot the moa value for the distance and training makes that possible.

I got to shoot a circle rangefinding scope with an AK NG SGT who was recuperating from hip surgery from a close call with an IED. 18" circles and we were shooting 20" maidens. Worked well enough. But our team fell apart when the targets were odd sized.

Now if we are hunting from a stand, and routinely hunt the area, then we have no need to base our guess about range on a moving, not sure his/her size, animal. Create a range card with distances to various trees, bushes and if nothing else stakes with engineer tape on them.

Anyway, like I said, alot of guys have done the dot, BDC, circle, special hashes custom made and all, sort of thing.

A very wise old guy once opined gadgets that stop advancing your skills with the lure of quick but shallow success is no gadget worth owning.

Good Luck
 
#33
Re: Good BDC Scope?

What is wrong with just using a basic Mildot reticle?
300YDHoldoff.jpg

Once you determine your data, its very easy to use. Its not that hard to memorize. I don't see where a specific BDC reticle has anything on the original Mildot or something like the TMR.
 
#34
Re: Good BDC Scope?

I understand what you guys are saying and yes it is easier for someone who has not been doing what most of you guys do which is train with and shoot with mil dots.

I'm trying to learn more since I joined but right now, with my limited knowledge my ballistic plex is better for me at the ranges I hunt with it.

I have been stuck in my ways because I have used the same ret. for 10 years now, I have a lot of experience with it on on game. I'd say the BDC's (if used with some knowledge of the cartridge and ret.) are the easy way out (up to a certain point) for people who have no knowledge of mils.

I need to study up, get lots of practice and take some classes to learn more about what you guys use so I can extend my range. I want to make the August PMG class I'm sure that would help a lot. I ordered a training manual that should help also.
 
#35
Re: Good BDC Scope?

I think you are making it more complicated than it really is. You are looking at a chart and adjusting it to specific points on a reticle with the ballistic plex. Why can't you do the same thing with a mildot?

I think its easier to think in 100 yard or meter units when snap shooting. If I were to ask you the range of an object just using your Mark1 Mod0 Eyeball, it would be quicker to think in 100 yard/meter increments, then split the last one in half. I can't imagine you would say that is 550 yards now do I use my 528 yard hash mark or my 583 yard hash mark.

It's very easy to split the Mildot reticle down to .1 mils. It just takes a little time to learn your reticle. It's so much more versatile than the ballistic plex, I can't imagine you would want to handicap yourself. Its easy to figure out where each dot is exactly if you are more comfortable with that.

I made and printed out the reticle holdover map I put above and then affixed that to my scope front scope cap so that I can use it for reference when shooting without breaking my stockweld.

The actual data is for the M118LR in my rifle is
100Y = +1.4 mils
150Y = +1.2 mils
200Y = +.8 mils
250Y = +.4 mils
300Y = 0
350Y = -.5 mils
400Y = -.9 mils
450Y = - 1.5 mils
500Y = - 2.0 mils
etc...

If you think its easier you could take the same data and use each dot as a specific yardage marker. So with M118LR using a 250 yard zero.

Dot above crosshair = 100 yards
Crosshair intersection = 250 yards (zero)
Dot below intersection = 360 yards
2nd dot below = 455 yards
3rd dot below = 540 yards
4th dot below = 625 yards
Top of bottom thick post= 690 yards

If you just held center you would be no higher than 3.9 inches and no lower than 5 inches out to 300 yards. If you compensate for that by aiming a little low under 200 yards and a little high over 300 yards you can reduce that error, by atleast half. That isn't precision shooting, but its as precise as you are going to get with a ballistic plex or any other BDC.

I can't think of anything you can do with a "BDC" reticle that you can't do with a mildot reticle. I can think of a few things you can do with a Mildot reticle that you can't do with a BDC reticle or would atleast take some creativity to do with a BDC. I am sure I have beat this horse to death so I will stop. I just think you are making it more difficult than it really is.




 
#36
Re: Good BDC Scope?

powerline.jpg


I use some of the same principles with my ballistic plex. On the back side of the card it lists my ranges for the different marks (which I have memorized), on this side it lists my drop in inches from my zero. I keep this side handy in case there is not enough light to see the plex marks.

I understand most of your points but unless you have used a ballistic plex for years (whether its right or wrong) I don't think you can totally discount its uses. Maybe your way is the best but its definitely not the only way.

Thanks for the info you posted, its interesting and helps me understand some of the new (to me) ways of doing this.

I now have a Burris XTR with the Ballistic plex and mil dots above, left and right of center, I look forward to learning more about mils and judging/shooting with them. I see that my ballistic plex is basically a totally f'd up mil type system. If I had put my time into learning mil I'd probably be ahead of the game but... My f'd up ways do work.

I think I'm going to quit beating this horse also.
 
#38
Re: Good BDC Scope?

Redirt,

If it works for you that is what matters. I wasn't saying a ballistic plex was "wrong", more that you can use a mildot the same way if you choose. Out of curiousity, I ran some numbers on the 7STW. I don't know what bullet you shoot so I just went with a factory load using a 150 grain Nosler Partition with a muzzle velocity of 3275 fps. That is a flat shooting round. Using a 200 yard zero

100-200 yards Zero (1" high at 100 yards & 5.5" low at 300yards or .5 mil)
first mildot below crosshairs (-13.5" = 380 yards)
Second mildot below crosshairs (-37" = 525 yards)
Third mildot below crosshairs (-69" = 650 yards)
Forth mildot below crosshairs (-105" = 750 yards)
Top of bottom thick post (-151" = 850 yards)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
With a 300 yd zero on my 7mmSTW it is...
0=300yds
First sub=380yds
second =520
third=650
</div></div>

As you can see you can use mildots just like a ballistic plex if you choose, but you can use them for a lot more and be much more precise with a little practice. They really are not very complicated. They just measure an angle(1 mil or 3.43 moa from center to center from one dot to the next) and give you reference points on your reticle. How you choose to use them is up to you. I was going to PM you but you are full.

D.W.
 
#39
Re: Good BDC Scope?

I understand. This is good for me, I am wanting to learn about it. I'm reading most of what you have posted for the first time.

I shoot 140gr Nosler ballistic tips and yes its pretty flat. My brother has the same gun, same bullets and uses a 400 yard zero and it only drops like 7" at 500. I think he's 7" high at 200 though, that is another case where the mil dots would be nice. I look forward to learning more, like I said now I have a Burris XTR 6-24x50 that has the Ballistic plex for hold overs and mil dots for windage left and right and elevation above the crosshair. I hope it doesn't get too confusing (moa adjustments haha) It will be a while before I buy another scope but when I do I will probably go straight mil dot. Old habits die hard though.

Here is a good picture of the "ballistic mil dot" reticle in my XTR

BURRIS-Black-Diamond-6-24x50-Riflescope-Ballistic-Mil-Dot-Reticle-Matte-Black-200934-Pic1.jpg


Thanks for the help, I cleared some PM space too.
 
#40
Re: Good BDC Scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Driftwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Redirt,

If it works for you that is what matters. I wasn't saying a ballistic plex was "wrong", more that you can use a mildot the same way if you choose. Out of curiousity, I ran some numbers on the 7STW. I don't know what bullet you shoot so I just went with a factory load using a 150 grain Nosler Partition with a muzzle velocity of 3275 fps. That is a flat shooting round. Using a 200 yard zero

100-200 yards Zero (1" high at 100 yards & 5.5" low at 300yards or .5 mil)
first mildot below crosshairs (-13.5" = 380 yards)
Second mildot below crosshairs (-37" = 525 yards)
Third mildot below crosshairs (-69" = 650 yards)
Forth mildot below crosshairs (-105" = 750 yards)
Top of bottom thick post (-151" = 850 yards)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
With a 300 yd zero on my 7mmSTW it is...
0=300yds
First sub=380yds
second =520
third=650
</div></div>

As you can see you can use mildots just like a ballistic plex if you choose, but you can use them for a lot more and be much more precise with a little practice. They really are not very complicated. They just measure an angle(1 mil or 3.43 moa from center to center from one dot to the next) and give you reference points on your reticle. How you choose to use them is up to you. I was going to PM you but you are full.

D.W.
</div></div>

Where did you run the numbers? Your own calcs? or thru a calculator program? I would like to get the actual numbers on my scope.

I know my clicks out to 700 but would like to find out what the actual yardages are for each dot. Especially out past 700 since my range does not reach past 700.
 
#42
Re: Good BDC Scope?

Use JBM as Redmanns suggested, then shoot the data provided, and note the changes. To go out to 700 yards you will probably need to zero at 300 yards, so you will have to "hold under" to 300 yards then hold over after that. You can play around with your zero range to determine what wiil fit your needs best. If you already have your data for your elevation turret you can convert that to Mils then hold accordingly. You will still need to verify your holds as the actual value of your turret may be different from what it says. Both methods will get you close but will need to be verified.
 
#43
Re: Good BDC Scope?

Thank guys.

I gotta get out there and shoot my rig again. It has been way too long. I will have to relearn my scope and decipher my recorded info. Doing the math it has got to be a minimum of at least 12 years since I actively shot this rig for accuracy.

If I remember correctly my scope base is designed to allow me to reach 100 yards with using only my elevation turret and not have to use any holds to reach 1000 yards. I do remember that when I was dialed in at 700 I still had a lot of scope left for additional elevation.

What I would like to have is my holds from 100-1000 yards. So it looks like I have got some work to do. When I was actively shooting the only tools I had was a range card, calculator, and my skymate wind meter.

At that time handheld a balictic calc or even a working computer bal. calc. was just a pipe dream. Things have changed over the years.


But I still want a dedicated hunting scope which is what this thread was started for.

Again thank you all for the info.
 
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