Good Guy with a Gun saves Many....
- Thread starter pmclaine
- Start date
In my tiredness last night I missed this post and did one of my own.
Excellent shot that saved lives. Probably many. Unfortunate for the 2 who passed.
Being Christian myself and part of my church’s safety team, they were men of faith and are free of the pain and hassles this world holds.
Prayers for their families and the church as they deal with the aftermath.
@TheGerman -truth about med supplies. Most churches have a little gauze on hand.
We have full IFAKs and a larger bag if needed. We also all carry a TQ on our person.
Honestly though, depending on what the bad guy had for loads, truncal hemorrhage is impossible to treat without surgical intervention. Compression can help at times, but if anything vital (kidney, spleen, liver, or major artery - even a small one) can bleed like stink. Some folks have reserve to fight through major blood loss. Some do not. Also, lots and lots of people on aspirin or blood thinners, all who bleed like stink.
Video link:
concealednation.org
Excellent shot that saved lives. Probably many. Unfortunate for the 2 who passed.
Being Christian myself and part of my church’s safety team, they were men of faith and are free of the pain and hassles this world holds.
Prayers for their families and the church as they deal with the aftermath.
@TheGerman -truth about med supplies. Most churches have a little gauze on hand.
We have full IFAKs and a larger bag if needed. We also all carry a TQ on our person.
Honestly though, depending on what the bad guy had for loads, truncal hemorrhage is impossible to treat without surgical intervention. Compression can help at times, but if anything vital (kidney, spleen, liver, or major artery - even a small one) can bleed like stink. Some folks have reserve to fight through major blood loss. Some do not. Also, lots and lots of people on aspirin or blood thinners, all who bleed like stink.
Video link:
*WARNING: GRAPHIC* Video Show Moments Before And After West Freeway Church Of Christ Shooting | Concealed Nation
Video is circulating the internet that shows the moments just before the shooting at West Freeway Church of Christ in Texas took place, as well as the moments
concealednation.org
Rebecca and I are both armed at church.
Living in Florida, sometimes it can be a little difficult to carry without printing.
I've seen a ton of fellow church goers that print in their clothing.
Makes me feel even safer.
My heart and prayers go out to those affected by this recent shooting.
Living in Florida, sometimes it can be a little difficult to carry without printing.
I've seen a ton of fellow church goers that print in their clothing.
Makes me feel even safer.
My heart and prayers go out to those affected by this recent shooting.
Odds are that the religion, race or politics of the shooter will ensure this is buried quickly. And they won’t tell us anything about the shooter.
I’m surprised they report it at all because of the ccw aspect. Surprised it isn’t reported like the law school shooting a few years back where the students “talked the shooter down” in reality they retrieved guns from their cars and held him at gun point
I learned of this right after it happened yesterday morning. My wife and I have a few friends that are members of this Church. Luckily they were either out sick or out of town. My wife called one of her friends to check on her and she was at home sick. She knew nothing and got off the phone with us and headed to the church to try and help. We have not heard back form her as of yet. We are working to see what we can do to help. I can say that the members of this church are older, mostly seniors and women. This Church like mine and some of our other sister churches have security details made up of members and all CC. Some are Ex Military and LEO some are civilian.
Thank god the shooter was stopped before more were hurt.
My heart hurts for those who lost and those who had to witness such a horrible event let alone at their place of worship.
This could have very easily happened a few miles down the street at my church on a day where my wife and kids were there without me.
As I learn more Ill update.
Thank god the shooter was stopped before more were hurt.
My heart hurts for those who lost and those who had to witness such a horrible event let alone at their place of worship.
This could have very easily happened a few miles down the street at my church on a day where my wife and kids were there without me.
As I learn more Ill update.
Here’s the HERO definitely not a lucky shot, the guy is a bad ass
dailysounder.com
This Firearms Instructor Is Reportedly The Hero Who Killed Texas Church Gunman With Single Head Shot
On Sunday, during what would otherwise likely be a quiet worship service at the West Freeway Church of Christ in White Settlement, Texas, an armed gunman entered the church and after talking to a man for several minutes in the corner, pulled out a shotgun and opened fire. The gunman, as was...
dailysounder.com
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one report i read said that a 'security guard' killed the perp. instead of saying a church member. downplayed it a little by suggesting that a hired outsider and not just an average joe ended it.
sort of related, regarding the virginia 2a constitutional county movement, one channel said 'a few rural counties' are doing it and you know darn well that if the mostly green map was for illegal immigrant sanctuaries, they'd of said 'the vast majority of the state is doing it,' and would have left out the 'rural' limiting adjective. the news can def spin an event or phenomena one way or the other.
Found this and figured it belonged here:
There was forty feet between them when they stopped to make their play
And the swiftness of the Boomer is still talked about today
Zoomer had not cleared leather when a bullet fairly ripped
And the Boomer's aim was deadly with the big iron on his hip
Big iron on his hip
It was over in a moment and the folks had gathered round
There before them lay the body of the virgin on the ground
Oh he might have gone on living but he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Boomer with the big iron on his hip
Big iron on his hip
R
There was forty feet between them when they stopped to make their play
And the swiftness of the Boomer is still talked about today
Zoomer had not cleared leather when a bullet fairly ripped
And the Boomer's aim was deadly with the big iron on his hip
Big iron on his hip
It was over in a moment and the folks had gathered round
There before them lay the body of the virgin on the ground
Oh he might have gone on living but he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Boomer with the big iron on his hip
Big iron on his hip
R
Doesnt it say in the Bible that the lord didnt come to deliver peace, but a sword? I understand that as (Through the sword, will be peace)
I havent been to church in a looooong time. But fuck around in the lords house and you'll get Smite'd for sure lol
On another note, was that murdering asshole wearing a Big Black Cloak?
I havent been to church in a looooong time. But fuck around in the lords house and you'll get Smite'd for sure lol
On another note, was that murdering asshole wearing a Big Black Cloak?
43-Year-Old Keith Kinnunen from River Oaks, TX Identified as Freeway Church Shooter - Was Previously Arrested on Gun Charges | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft
The man who pulled a gun inside the Freeway Church in Texas was identified on Monday.
www.thegatewaypundit.com
Until a couple months ago, churches were on the list of prohibited places for concealed carry. I’m hoping other states will take notice of this and lift restrictions, as well.
Always one eye on the pulpit, one eye on the door and never not in an aisle seat with a good angle.
Always one eye on the pulpit, one eye on the door and never not in an aisle seat with a good angle.
Along the lines of being aware and identifying the warning signs this man was displaying, I have a question.
Whats the proper thing to do if you are in a similar situation ( in church, movie theater, etc), and you notice the shotgun under the man's coat before he brandishes it? Common sense tells you whats going on (there is no good reason to have a long gun under your coat in church), but he hasn't threatened anyone or made any disturbance yet. How do you protect your family/friends without getting into legal trouble?
Whats the proper thing to do if you are in a similar situation ( in church, movie theater, etc), and you notice the shotgun under the man's coat before he brandishes it? Common sense tells you whats going on (there is no good reason to have a long gun under your coat in church), but he hasn't threatened anyone or made any disturbance yet. How do you protect your family/friends without getting into legal trouble?
Big black leather trenchcoat... The defining icon of socially awkward weirdos since Columbine.
When I was a 7-Eleven manager there was one in our neighborhood. Wore one day and night, rain or shine, hot or cold. Even in high summer when it was a sweltering 97 degrees F.
Big black leather trenchcoat... The defining icon of socially awkward weirdos since Columbine.
When I was a 7-Eleven manager there was one in our neighborhood. Wore one day and night, rain or shine, hot or cold. Even in high summer when it was a sweltering 97 degrees F.Of course it is obvious that the mf'er had more than just a few screws loose. Cops finally arrested him one day at a pharmacy several doors down for stalking and menacing a girl from his old high school with a kitchen knife...
It's hard to tell from the limited view of the camera, but I get the impression they had eyes on him from the beginning, thus the short response time. Those guys nearby with guns were probably strategically placed in that corner because they noticed him. I know for certain that if he'd been in my church, A) His attire would have attracted the attention of the security team, B) He'd have been immediately identified as a non-regular (and we're not a small church, we have 3 Sunday AM services), and C) He'd have had several security team members baby-sitting him throughout his time there, but they'd have tried to remain somewhat inconspicuous, but not "totally" - enough of a presence to make him think twice. I don't doubt, however, that the result might be the same.
I think (don't claim to know) that's what they were doing here, too. The problem I see is that wherever this happens, it has never happened before, so it's probably kind of hard to wrap your mind around the fact that what your eyes are telling you is REALLY about to happen. As a result I can see how it might make one a bit slow to disrupt such an official ceremony as Communion unless you are 100% sure. I'm "guessing" if you ask them, the security team here would say they were watching him, but it took them a second to jump in to action as they waited to see if he was a genuine threat or not.
Meet Jack Wilson. The man we should all aspire to be. An American. Period.
“The events at West Freeway Church of Christ put me in a position that I would hope no one would have to be in, but evil exists and I had to take out an active shooter in church.”
In greatest respect, sir.
Sirhr
Jack Wilson.
Stephen Willeford.
Johnnie Langendorff.
Natural born warriors. Heroes. And inspirations for all current and future Americans through and through.
I bet there’ll be a whole lot more people printing in church next Sunday, all over the country.
If I am off base, let me know.
Seems from the video, the first man shot was dealing with a lot of layers to move and negotiate around to get his piece out. Also maybe was a bit far back?
This, as well as other ways to have an even faster response, are key thoughts moving forward.
While I mourn his and the other man’s death, I am focused on the reality that this WILL happen again. Maybe in short order.
So those of us who do carry can learn and improve our own plan/techniques to be faster than the bad guy.
I do pray every day that Im not in this situation. And if I am, I am fast, accurate, and my actions are able to save lives. Just like Jack.
Seems from the video, the first man shot was dealing with a lot of layers to move and negotiate around to get his piece out. Also maybe was a bit far back?
This, as well as other ways to have an even faster response, are key thoughts moving forward.
While I mourn his and the other man’s death, I am focused on the reality that this WILL happen again. Maybe in short order.
So those of us who do carry can learn and improve our own plan/techniques to be faster than the bad guy.
I do pray every day that Im not in this situation. And if I am, I am fast, accurate, and my actions are able to save lives. Just like Jack.
Good read on Stephen Willeford.
getpocket.com
Lessons learned. Keep mags loaded. Fast way to carry a spare or 3 with you.
The Hero of Sutherland Springs Is Still Reckoning with What Happened that Day
One year ago, after Stephen Willeford disrupted the mass murder at First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, he was hailed as the ultimate good guy with a gun, but he's still reckoning with what happened that day—and what his life has become.
getpocket.com
Lessons learned. Keep mags loaded. Fast way to carry a spare or 3 with you.
It looked to me that he had his pistol tucked in the center of his back, and was having a hard time getting his hands on it, and getting it out of his holster because all the clothes he had on. Maybe, if he had it on his side, instead of the small of his back, he could have responded quicker. Maybe too, not enough training. It’s hard to say.
I think the fact that he distracted the shooter, and gave his own life, allowed the other shooter an opportunity to clear leather before the bad guy started clearing the pews.
Well put, and the consensus among all of my coworkers when we watched the footage again today was that the scumbag had been ID'd as a potential threat from the get go. Even if Mr. Wilson had not got the initial lock on him, somebody else, at least 4 others, were ready to take his ass down. He wouldn't have been able to get at most two more shots off.
In a gated urban, or tight knit suburban/rural community, it can be relatively easy to spot a potential threat. If someone is dressing or acting out of the ordinary, they will stick out like a screw anchor on a brand new wall that had been fucked up by a contractor during the driving in. The real problem is in heavily urban areas where the population has been "immunized" to weird people and weird behavior. New York City is a good example. If you were to ride the NY subway system in the predawn hours of the morning like I do currently, almost every single car on the train is an exhibit to some of the most fucked up characters you can imagine. Shitters, pissers, mumblers, large coats in warm weather, face covered up, hands in pocket walking frantically and aimlessly back and forth... And that is naming just a few things. The stations and the streets are not much different. Any potentially lethal threat can surface at any time and most of the sheep here will not recognize a single clue until it blows up in their faces. Target rich environment is actually a gross understatement. I always compare NYC's so far current lack of any major man-made mass casualty events (aside from September 11, 2001) as India during the massive West African Ebola outbreak of 2014... I am certain they are aware of just how lucky they were. If the virus had reached the subcontinent, with IT'S population density, almost lack of medical infrastructure, and appalling sanitary conditions, it would have plowed through that entire region of the world like a fire in a petrochemical plant...
The poor guy that took the first shot...ugh.
I agree it looked like he got caught up in layers of clothes. IDK if a diff carry position would have helped..
I do wonder though if in this situation if he should have moved a bit while drawing...probably was trying to do so without attracting attention but fk IDK this is just so messed up...
The bad guy drew pretty quick but initially was within arms length of the guy who was the second to get shot.
At that point would it be better to try to close out and go hands while moving to the side...
I will again reiterate now that many have watched the video....count off 7 seconds. That was the time from bad guy clearing the shotgun from his coat to dying with his head blown off, and he managed to shoot 2 and kill at least 1 in that time while literally surrounded by armed men. It's a terribly unfortunate and incredibly potent lesson on awareness and the need to NOT rely on others (police, etc.) for personal safety and protection.
I also remain in awe (and I shoot USPSA, albeit not great) at the shot that Jack made at that distance, under pressure, on a moving head sized target. Unreal skill and composure, and very likely 1 or more people are alive today because he didn't need a second shot. There's no way in hell I think I could do the same...I need to train more.
I also remain in awe (and I shoot USPSA, albeit not great) at the shot that Jack made at that distance, under pressure, on a moving head sized target. Unreal skill and composure, and very likely 1 or more people are alive today because he didn't need a second shot. There's no way in hell I think I could do the same...I need to train more.
Due to this i went to the range today to practice my draw with my carry gun, im glad i did somehow my rear sight moved over enough were it was off to left and seems my holster is snagging a little bit as well so I think its about time for a new one as mine is over 4-5 yrs old. Everyone get out a practice!!
I haven't watched it since yesterday but I seem to remember that Jack had his gun out almost as soon as the guy wielded the shotgun, but hesitated as he naturally didn't want to risk a tight shot with the innocent guy against the wall and probably was waiting to see if the guy would just start shooting or if it was going to be defused (I'm totally armchair quarterbacking at this point I realize).
He wasted almost no time as soon as the perp started blasting. Like I've said...7 fucking seconds. Crazy to think how much went down in such a short time. It's been incredibly sobering to me and the wife and we've talked about it a lot in the last 24 hours. I even talked about it with the kids (I didn't show them the video yet...still thinking on that).
James Butler 'Wild Bill' Hickok is beaming down from the sky at Jack Wilson. The way of the gunfighter, and the way of the cowboy, is still gracing Texas today... I pray it never dies, but spreads, far and wide.
He said he delayed his shot due to someone being in the way.
as soon as they moved and the sight picture was clear, he pressed the trigger.
as soon as they moved and the sight picture was clear, he pressed the trigger.
The stories I could tell you about the last Staten Island Ferry each night. Had a girlfriend who lived on SI and worked in Manhattan so I rode it with her at times. Absolute fucking zoo and that was circa 1972-3, 47 years ago. I shudder to think what its like now...
How you live there is beyond me.
I watched this several times tonight. I noticed a few things and hope that we as a community (not just here on SH) of Americans can use this as a tool even though watching it is horrific. A tool that acknowledges that BAD people kill using any number of instruments and that guns do prevent crimes from happening or getting worse. Guns are NOT the problem - evil people are.
I noticed that the first person murdered was reaching for his gun - I couldn't tell if it was SoB or about 4:30-5:00. It appeared he pointed the guy towards the bathroom or something and then spotted the gun. Regardless, the gun was caught on something or his reach limited. He spotted the threat very quickly. He was a big guy too. We will never be sure what his thoughts were at that time other than to stop the threat. God rest his soul he too is a hero.
Jack, from what I could tell, also had some difficulty getting his weapon drawn as there super brief period of time where it looked like he was either ducking or it was a little hard draw. He NEVER took his eyes off the threat. Once he had his firearm is position he perfectly executed a very difficult shot under pressure with many lives at stake. Pretty much textbook I'd say. I can honestly say, I don't know if I could have made that shot. - especially not in one shot to the head. Add that he had to wait for his people to clear line-of-sight, did so without panicking and shooting an innocent. There is almost no way the threat could have been neutralized any faster. Talk about cool under pressure and a man who knew what he had to do and didn't fail. Truly a hero. Hopefully POTUS will acknowledge this man.
For me the take from this is that I still prefer OWB if at all possible. Under a suit or sport coat it's relatively easy with a high-ride. Not to judge these heros; but a data-point for me personally. I can only hope that if I'm ever in such a situation I can be as calm, cool, and accurate as Jack. Thus, I think I'll be doing more practice draws with full garb on, whatever the garb is: daily winter wear, suits, t-shirts, etc.
Sadly, the woman who jumped the pews was the daughter of the second man shot and who I assume bled out as he managed to get to a pew and even stand back up. That was heartbreaking to see and a loss of a good soul.
Lastly, I think it's important to note how many guns crossed people after Jack took the scum out. Again, in the heat of the moment I don't know what I would do in that situation; but it's something with which to now be more aware.
God rest the souls of the two men who were murdered and may He bring comfort to their families.
I noticed that the first person murdered was reaching for his gun - I couldn't tell if it was SoB or about 4:30-5:00. It appeared he pointed the guy towards the bathroom or something and then spotted the gun. Regardless, the gun was caught on something or his reach limited. He spotted the threat very quickly. He was a big guy too. We will never be sure what his thoughts were at that time other than to stop the threat. God rest his soul he too is a hero.
Jack, from what I could tell, also had some difficulty getting his weapon drawn as there super brief period of time where it looked like he was either ducking or it was a little hard draw. He NEVER took his eyes off the threat. Once he had his firearm is position he perfectly executed a very difficult shot under pressure with many lives at stake. Pretty much textbook I'd say. I can honestly say, I don't know if I could have made that shot. - especially not in one shot to the head. Add that he had to wait for his people to clear line-of-sight, did so without panicking and shooting an innocent. There is almost no way the threat could have been neutralized any faster. Talk about cool under pressure and a man who knew what he had to do and didn't fail. Truly a hero. Hopefully POTUS will acknowledge this man.
For me the take from this is that I still prefer OWB if at all possible. Under a suit or sport coat it's relatively easy with a high-ride. Not to judge these heros; but a data-point for me personally. I can only hope that if I'm ever in such a situation I can be as calm, cool, and accurate as Jack. Thus, I think I'll be doing more practice draws with full garb on, whatever the garb is: daily winter wear, suits, t-shirts, etc.
Sadly, the woman who jumped the pews was the daughter of the second man shot and who I assume bled out as he managed to get to a pew and even stand back up. That was heartbreaking to see and a loss of a good soul.
Lastly, I think it's important to note how many guns crossed people after Jack took the scum out. Again, in the heat of the moment I don't know what I would do in that situation; but it's something with which to now be more aware.
God rest the souls of the two men who were murdered and may He bring comfort to their families.
Maybe, but it's also from Led Zeppelin III, Immigrant Song. Think of it as Stovokor for humans of Nordic decent.
Good analysis and I agree I was also a little surprised by how many folks were flagged by the various citizens who drew during/after the few seconds of insane action...but also could see men struggling with the situation and still trying to make sure they held their weapons appropriately and high enough to avoid flagging innocents. Crazy difficult situation that we all get the opportunity to break down and quarterback after the fact due to the video.
My heart aches for the two in the back that paid with their lives for probably trying to both talk down a crazy POS (the guy against the wall) and attempt to draw (the guy sitting down) and deal with the situation. As heroic as Jack's actions were I do really hope that sight isn't lost that others stood in the line of fire and lost their lives which contributed to so many being saved ultimately.
Ultimately, I just hate that we as a society have continued to allow such mentally ill people to go untreated and uncontrolled. Law abiding and peaceful people should never have to deal with this shit, I'm sure that even though this guy was a complete asshole, that Jack will struggle with having to take his life as I am sure any of us ultimately would, on balance. I'm just glad that most of the country still recognizes the right of all to defend themselves from such threats.
I just read multiple articles about restraining orders, "we knew he was crazy but not this crazy", ""Any problem that you had, he could give you a Bible scripture. He was very close to the Lord. I believe that is why he chose the church, (says his sister). Was the guy crazy? Of course, but what caused it. Sounds like multiple things: drug usage (shocking), losing his brother, etc. Sounds like the murderer had a hard life; but that's no excuse...there is none.
A lot of these people think their life is so much worse than somebody else and get off track. However, there's always going to be somebody worse off and somebody better off than the other - money, intelligence, happiness, etc - what's the criteria? Gov't needs to start focusing on CAUSES of mental illness and not on law abiding citizens. So just why the rash of mental illness? Something's causing it .
The problem is how do prevent these truly ill people from possession whilst not trampling on people's absolute rights via feel good legislation such as red flag laws. Sounds to me like this guy had enough charges to not have legal possession of a firearm.
So here we are again - how'd he get it? Yet...the answer is "he did get a gun." How else do people (criminals) in Mexico get them? Only 22's are legal there. And...they still get them. Thus, I love what the Atty Gen of Texas said - something to the effect more states need to allow church goers to have ability for carry. Evil has been and will always be around and it's up to us to limit the damage it can do - spiritually and if necessary by force as exemplified by Jack.
A lot of these people think their life is so much worse than somebody else and get off track. However, there's always going to be somebody worse off and somebody better off than the other - money, intelligence, happiness, etc - what's the criteria? Gov't needs to start focusing on CAUSES of mental illness and not on law abiding citizens. So just why the rash of mental illness? Something's causing it .
The problem is how do prevent these truly ill people from possession whilst not trampling on people's absolute rights via feel good legislation such as red flag laws. Sounds to me like this guy had enough charges to not have legal possession of a firearm.
So here we are again - how'd he get it? Yet...the answer is "he did get a gun." How else do people (criminals) in Mexico get them? Only 22's are legal there. And...they still get them. Thus, I love what the Atty Gen of Texas said - something to the effect more states need to allow church goers to have ability for carry. Evil has been and will always be around and it's up to us to limit the damage it can do - spiritually and if necessary by force as exemplified by Jack.
This is literally down the street from me.
Jack Wilson had a gun range in whiskey flats. He administered a chl test for me and a son a while back.
We used to shoot on his range.
It doesn't suprise me he needed only one shot, but surprises me he only used one.
Jack Wilson had a gun range in whiskey flats. He administered a chl test for me and a son a while back.
We used to shoot on his range.
It doesn't suprise me he needed only one shot, but surprises me he only used one.
Get your facts straight! Church is not a prohibited place. Even if it was its Gods house, only he can prohibit me.
We spoke with our friends for the church yesterday. From what I understand. The man was suspicious from the start. Wearing a fake beard and wig with a beanie hat. I didn't get to ask questions but was told they positioned themselves close thinking this guy might be up to something. I haven't heard what words were exchanged with the murder when he first came inside or right before he started shooting.
hope to get more info on this later today.
@Snuby642 your spot on about Jack and his abilities. I don't know the man personaly but shot at his place many of times back in the day.
Took my CHL there as well.
hope to get more info on this later today.
@Snuby642 your spot on about Jack and his abilities. I don't know the man personaly but shot at his place many of times back in the day.
Took my CHL there as well.
** It shouldn't surprise you. Properly trained and experienced people only shoot as many times 'AS NEEDED' to stop the threat.
He drew, presented, cleared his line of fired, safe backstop, and fired the one shot stop round, then controlled his actions for the safety of others. **
Older man with years of experience, knowledge, training, and maturity.
He knew not to fire excess rounds in a fluid moving event with a number of innocents moving about in shock.
That is a lesson for all of us.
The comments about flagging..... stuff happens in a shooting. Auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, adrenaline overload. You lose the finer points of stuff, until your mind and body accept the threat is ended.
Not everybody ramps up or slows down at the same pace. So, some people got flagged..... it happens. Be aware of it....
Be aware of it enough that YOU dont jump up in front of people with a gun in a situation like this, and you get shot by an unintended 'startle reflex'of somebody who's adrenaline ramped up at a different level and who's perception IS NOT the same as yours.
And some of the "fumble" comments, one of the first things you lose in an intense adrenaline dump is fine motor skills in your fingers and hands. There is no training that can replicate that level of threat or level of adrenal response, which is one main reason 'some' shootings seem so f'd up.
Some of the comments in this thread and others demonstrate a certain lack of knowledge about shootings. Best of luck to some of those commenters with their illusions.
It is well known in active combat situations that senior experienced NCOs direct the first fire on target and some unit members never fire, until several engagements down the road, as they become exposed, experienced, and violence innoculated.
Jack functioned much like those senior NCO's, and some of the other responses mirror "other unit members" slower responses.
Every shooting event is different. Your response may not be the same in two identical events based on YOUR condition. Be alert and aware after your morning exercise and coffee, versus exhausted, a little sick, and slowed by sinus meds.
What YOU do may surprise the f out of your preconceived notions.
Again, best of life to all of you.
vr
If any of you are part of a church defense unit, I strongly suggest you get to a point, the whole unit does in house role play training, with both a known member being the bad guy, and a unknown volunteer as bad guy.
AND, if you can, later on, after a number of practices (hopefully successful sessions), integrate willing members in the congregation into the training. Grow your training.
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Thanks @j-huskey
I would like to clarify about my fumble comments since you brought it up.
Its not so much the fumble I want to target for discussion, but what we can learn from it to limit the issues it appears this man had in his draw for others in the future.
Too many layers over a pistol, a holster or position chosen for comfort vs draw, not enough draw practice, etc.....
Less barriers to a smooth draw when under that stress is good spot to focus.
Having been tasked with starting an IV on a sub 5 lb kid born in way less than ideal conditions a few times, I can attest to both how your brain loses a lot and your motor skills diminish. Even when you do it right, you notice after that you didnt see all the other stuff happening.
things for us to all think about.
Thanks for your other thoughts. Useful items to take forward.
I would like to clarify about my fumble comments since you brought it up.
Its not so much the fumble I want to target for discussion, but what we can learn from it to limit the issues it appears this man had in his draw for others in the future.
Too many layers over a pistol, a holster or position chosen for comfort vs draw, not enough draw practice, etc.....
Less barriers to a smooth draw when under that stress is good spot to focus.
Having been tasked with starting an IV on a sub 5 lb kid born in way less than ideal conditions a few times, I can attest to both how your brain loses a lot and your motor skills diminish. Even when you do it right, you notice after that you didnt see all the other stuff happening.
things for us to all think about.
Thanks for your other thoughts. Useful items to take forward.
Alabama State Trooper pre-vest days took 6 hits from a ruger blackhawk 44 magnum with 3 center mass, and lived long enough to kill his killer.
In the church shooting, two in the chest doesnt guarantee a stop, but guarantees more head movement, making the 3rd or head shot more difficult, and the muzzle blast from the pistol shock effect on those members right beside Jack could have made one pop up into his way.
Jack made the best choice, one shot stop 'pistol sniper shot' that ended the situation. His read on the situation was correct and appropriate given his experience, training, and all else considered.
The distance involved, the general movement of the congregation, and movement of other protective detail members made the 2/1 a bad choice. He made the right choice.
Dont let your training or pre-set mindset make you make the wrong choice. LE or protective detail marksman/snipers have one opportunity to immediately stop a threat, the CNS, and Jack took it and made it.
By training, believing 2/1, is the answer, and sticking to that as the best option, a number of LE shootings have demonstrated that false.
Dont let a pre-conceived thought get you or somebody else killed.
No plan survives first contact. The quickest correct response to what does happen gives a higher percentage of success.
Go practice drawing and firing on a silhouette target at 20 yards, cold response, not after 50 rounds of practice, and tell us you get successful 2 chest, 1 head, in 7 seconds from draw.
Then, go home from the range after firing those 3 shots.
Go back the next day, and try draw and one to the head in 7 seconds.
Then, based on those results, adjust your training.
May seem hard and that I'm nitpicking, but, I'm not. I'm sharing some things I learned in a couple of gunfights I lived through.
Best to you, vr.
It has its place, it's a tool in the toolbox, and it has distance limitations you have to find in your personal training.
As you age, you will find your distance getting shorter, in which you can successfully employ that dt/c, know this, keep practicing, and figure out what tool works best past your distance limit.
It's not wrong, but it's one tool in the box, and it was situationally wrong for Jack.
It would have been appropriate for the ones up close to the shooter.
A magazine dump up close 3-5 feet, center chest would have been pretty good there "if" they could have employed it, walking the rounds up into the neck/head.
Again, best to you, vr
An interesting question occurred to me....
What would have been the aftermath if one of the parishioners had shot and killed the perp with the shotgun 'before' he fired a shot.
There was an incident in VT about 20 years ago in which a guy with mental issues was in a church threatening the worshippers and, after they arrived, the state troopers with a knife. He moved inside lethal range and they shot and killed him. The Troopers were CRUCIFIED for that. In the media and, ultimately, by their chain of command who threw them under the bus. It was a righteous shoot. But both troopers had their lives ruined. Calls for 'well, he hadn't hurt anyone...', 'he only had a knife...', 'he had mental issues and they didn't take that into account.'
I wonder how many officers... for how many years... have been at risk because in the back of their minds was the thought that "if I defend myself or others, I am going to be crucified.'
As it played out, the right man was in the right place at the right time. But what would be the outcome if he had fired just before the shotgun-wielder had pulled the trigger? What's the law on that? What will a DA do?
So far, has not been an issue at a mass shooting that I know of. There seem to always be shots fired by the perp first. But what about the guy who can get off the first round... before the mass-shooter fires? If the mass shooter never fires... Is he a mass shooter? Can the intent be assumed when a guy in a black trench coat starts to pull out a shotgun in a church?
Just some mental meanderings I had while working at the loading bench today...
.45/90's and .470 Capsticks underway!
Cheers,
Sirhr
What would have been the aftermath if one of the parishioners had shot and killed the perp with the shotgun 'before' he fired a shot.
There was an incident in VT about 20 years ago in which a guy with mental issues was in a church threatening the worshippers and, after they arrived, the state troopers with a knife. He moved inside lethal range and they shot and killed him. The Troopers were CRUCIFIED for that. In the media and, ultimately, by their chain of command who threw them under the bus. It was a righteous shoot. But both troopers had their lives ruined. Calls for 'well, he hadn't hurt anyone...', 'he only had a knife...', 'he had mental issues and they didn't take that into account.'
I wonder how many officers... for how many years... have been at risk because in the back of their minds was the thought that "if I defend myself or others, I am going to be crucified.'
As it played out, the right man was in the right place at the right time. But what would be the outcome if he had fired just before the shotgun-wielder had pulled the trigger? What's the law on that? What will a DA do?
So far, has not been an issue at a mass shooting that I know of. There seem to always be shots fired by the perp first. But what about the guy who can get off the first round... before the mass-shooter fires? If the mass shooter never fires... Is he a mass shooter? Can the intent be assumed when a guy in a black trench coat starts to pull out a shotgun in a church?
Just some mental meanderings I had while working at the loading bench today...
.45/90's and .470 Capsticks underway!
Cheers,
Sirhr
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