Good Guy with a Gun saves Many....

[sirhrmechanic]

An interesting question occurred to me....

What would have been the aftermath if one of the parishioners had shot and killed the perp with the shotgun 'before' he fired a shot.

There was an incident in VT about 20 years ago in which a guy with mental issues was in a church threatening the worshippers and, after they arrived, the state troopers with a knife. He moved inside lethal range and they shot and killed him. The Troopers were CRUCIFIED for that. In the media and, ultimately, by their chain of command who threw them under the bus. It was a righteous shoot. But both troopers had their lives ruined. Calls for 'well, he hadn't hurt anyone...', 'he only had a knife...', 'he had mental issues and they didn't take that into account.'

I wonder how many officers... for how many years... have been at risk because in the back of their minds was the thought that "if I defend myself or others, I am going to be crucified.'

As it played out, the right man was in the right place at the right time. But what would be the outcome if he had fired just before the shotgun-wielder had pulled the trigger? What's the law on that? What will a DA do?

So far, has not been an issue at a mass shooting that I know of. There seem to always be shots fired by the perp first. But what about the guy who can get off the first round... before the mass-shooter fires? If the mass shooter never fires... Is he a mass shooter? Can the intent be assumed when a guy in a black trench coat starts to pull out a shotgun in a church?

Just some mental meanderings I had while working at the loading bench today...

.45/90's and .470 Capsticks underway!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[pucker]

Good points Sirhr....

Any different than any other situation you feel threatened and need to use deadly force? You’ll always need to be able to justify it after the fact. See some clown pull a weapon in gas station.... do we need to wait until he starts shooting? Nope.

I hear what you’re saying though about the cops. I’d hate to be one in an area run by a virtue-signaling DA.

 

[Seed tick]

God bless the gentleman who was shot first. I agree he probably bought Mr. Wilson some time and paid with his life. Another hero in my eyes, at least.

 

[Blutroop]

An interesting question occurred to me....

What would have been the aftermath if one of the parishioners had shot and killed the perp with the shotgun 'before' he fired a shot.

There was an incident in VT about 20 years ago in which a guy with mental issues was in a church threatening the worshippers and, after they arrived, the state troopers with a knife. He moved inside lethal range and they shot and killed him. The Troopers were CRUCIFIED for that. In the media and, ultimately, by their chain of command who threw them under the bus. It was a righteous shoot. But both troopers had their lives ruined. Calls for 'well, he hadn't hurt anyone...', 'he only had a knife...', 'he had mental issues and they didn't take that into account.'

I wonder how many officers... for how many years... have been at risk because in the back of their minds was the thought that "if I defend myself or others, I am going to be crucified.'

As it played out, the right man was in the right place at the right time. But what would be the outcome if he had fired just before the shotgun-wielder had pulled the trigger? What's the law on that? What will a DA do?

So far, has not been an issue at a mass shooting that I know of. There seem to always be shots fired by the perp first. But what about the guy who can get off the first round... before the mass-shooter fires? If the mass shooter never fires... Is he a mass shooter? Can the intent be assumed when a guy in a black trench coat starts to pull out a shotgun in a church?

Just some mental meanderings I had while working at the loading bench today...

.45/90's and .470 Capsticks underway!

Cheers,

Sirhr

I was kinda thinking the same thing. Like if the first guy would have reacted as a close threat and went for the shotgun instead of trying to pull his weapon he woulda had better chances of surviving. I used to have a fixed blade hanging on my vest just for that occasion.

 

[j-huskey]

^ SirHR... in most of the State of AL, nothing but "good job", but in the couple of democratic swamps, it might not go well, IF, the perp, was democratic.

In other states, who knows. AL law would allow his removal once he produced the gun under the given circumstances.

 

[Winningdog]

God bless the gentleman who was shot first. I agree he probably bought Mr. Wilson some time and paid with his life. Another hero in my eyes, at least.

Agreed

 

[Winningdog]

An interesting question occurred to me....

What would have been the aftermath if one of the parishioners had shot and killed the perp with the shotgun 'before' he fired a shot.

There was an incident in VT about 20 years ago in which a guy with mental issues was in a church threatening the worshippers and, after they arrived, the state troopers with a knife. He moved inside lethal range and they shot and killed him. The Troopers were CRUCIFIED for that. In the media and, ultimately, by their chain of command who threw them under the bus. It was a righteous shoot. But both troopers had their lives ruined. Calls for 'well, he hadn't hurt anyone...', 'he only had a knife...', 'he had mental issues and they didn't take that into account.'

I wonder how many officers... for how many years... have been at risk because in the back of their minds was the thought that "if I defend myself or others, I am going to be crucified.'

As it played out, the right man was in the right place at the right time. But what would be the outcome if he had fired just before the shotgun-wielder had pulled the trigger? What's the law on that? What will a DA do?

So far, has not been an issue at a mass shooting that I know of. There seem to always be shots fired by the perp first. But what about the guy who can get off the first round... before the mass-shooter fires? If the mass shooter never fires... Is he a mass shooter? Can the intent be assumed when a guy in a black trench coat starts to pull out a shotgun in a church?

Just some mental meanderings I had while working at the loading bench today...

.45/90's and .470 Capsticks underway!

Cheers,

Sirhr

In Texas, if your life is in danger you can stop the threat. Are you about to lose your life if a man pulls a gun from under his coat, in church? Yes you are. But would you react based on what you believe to be legal, or what you believe to be necessary at the time to protect family, self, and other's. Law be damned.

 

[Blutroop]

Yup. It’s not like he went walking around Walmart with it on his back. He pulled it out from a trench coat and leveled it. Eliminating threats have to take priority in your thought process.. not weather or not the law recognizes your rights.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

In Texas, if your life is in danger you can stop the threat. Are you about to lose your life if a man pulls a gun from under his coat, in church? Yes you are. But would you react based on what you believe to be legal, or what you believe to be necessary at the time to protect family, self, and other's. Law be damned.

We're in total agreement!

But how does that change when the guy's family says "He never would have pulled the trigger." "He is so gentle..." "He brought it to the church to have it blessed." "He was turning his life around...."

I think the point about 'where you are' does matter. And who is your States' Attorney or DA? Situational awareness has more than one component... and even in Texas, I bet the prosecutors in suburban Austin are a lot different from the one's in White Settlement!

Anyway, it's all a hypothetical. But a question worth contemplating as well.

Cheers and Happy New Year, all!

Sirhr

 

[Blutroop]

We're in total agreement!

But how does that change when the guy's family says "He never would have pulled the trigger." "He is so gentle..." "He brought it to the church to have it blessed." "He was turning his life around...."

I think the point about 'where you are' does matter. And who is your States' Attorney or DA? Situational awareness has more than one component... and even in Texas, I bet the prosecutors in suburban Austin are a lot different from the one's in White Settlement!

Anyway, it's all a hypothetical. But a question worth contemplating as well.

Cheers and Happy New Year, all!

Sirhr

Your right. But those thoughts need to come to play after you pull the trigger, not before. Just don’t go back to bed then call the cops in the morning to claim you fired into the dark at a fleeing suspect after he was in your yard at night in Texas with something in his hand.

 

[Blutroop]

Your right. But those thoughts need to come to play after you pull the trigger, not before. Just don’t go back to bed then call the cops in the morning to claim you fired into the dark at a fleeing suspect after he was in your yard at night in Texas with something in his hand.

Or to put it simpler.. what is the more Immediate threat?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Your right. But those thoughts need to come to play after you pull the trigger, not before. Just don’t go back to bed then call the cops in the morning to claim you fired into the dark at a fleeing suspect after he was in your yard at night in Texas with something in his hand.

Or before you decide to go into a Circle K in Suburban Austin that's been robbed 7 times!

Was that the Japanese kid incident in TX from many years ago? I know there have been some 'interesting' ones. The drunk Japanese student, IIRC, was tragic. But the homeowner did not get charged based on the circumstances.

Knowing the precedents... can also be part of situational awareness. As with anything... strategic big picture... and tactical immediate threat.

Anyway, all academic.

Sirhr

 

[Blutroop]

Or before you decide to go into a Circle K in Suburban Austin that's been robbed 7 times!

Was that the Japanese kid incident in TX from many years ago? I know there have been some 'interesting' ones. The drunk Japanese student, IIRC, was tragic. But the homeowner did not get charged based on the circumstances.

Knowing the precedents... can also be part of situational awareness. As with anything... strategic big picture... and tactical immediate threat.

Anyway, all academic.

Sirhr

It was a 72 year old in Dallas this year.

 

[Darayavaus]

Jack Wilson used a p229.

"mess with our holy hour and you'll get the Sig Sauer"

In all seriousness, Jack was carrying a capable pistol that enabled him to engage the target with precision at a distance. I've seen too many people with tiny ultracompacts who think that barely being able to put a couple rounds out of a full mag into center mass under calm, controlled circumstances are good enough. This shows that total competence and excellent marksmanship are absolutely necessary. We all need to take our responsibility seriously when it comes to carrying.

 

[Darayavaus]

Or before you decide to go into a Circle K in Suburban Austin that's been robbed 7 times!

everyone knows that strange things are afoot at the Circle K

 

[BytorJr]

I just watched this again but with sound (not sure why the other video had no sound). One gets a totally different perspective. While I'm sure some thought I was hyper-critical of the draws I apologize if that's what it came across as. With no sound the motion seems to almost be in slow-mo and was much easier to ascertain minutia; however, now that I have sound on not only is it extra horrifying to watch, the speed in which it happened seem to unfold multiple orders of magnitude faster. Even more amazed at Jack - pretty much perfection.

As previously mentioned, try to do this "cold." I think, from now on (or at least when I get some steel to make feedback easier) this will be the first thing I practice. - from holstered position commensurate with weather conditions (or worse).

 

[pucker]

God bless the gentleman who was shot first. I agree he probably bought Mr. Wilson some time and paid with his life. Another hero in my eyes, at least.

Concur. Richard White was the first hero that day.

 

[vh20]

An interesting question occurred to me....

What would have been the aftermath if one of the parishioners had shot and killed the perp with the shotgun 'before' he fired a shot.

I wonder how many officers... for how many years... have been at risk because in the back of their minds was the thought that "if I defend myself or others, I am going to be crucified.'

.45/90's and .470 Capsticks underway!

Cheers,

Sirhr

The irony is, in your scenario he would have been an even greater hero than Jack, but no one would have ever known and he would have been at risk for being pers/pros-ecuted. The ultimate goal is to save lives. Jack saved MANY, and it is obvious. But what if he had saved ALL of them - it wouldn't be as obvious, yet he'd have done an even greater thing. Under the circumstances Jack was presented with, I think I would have done the same thing, but I'll bet if he's ever in that situation again, the perp never even gets off that first shot.

Huge fan of Peter Hathaway Capstick, so I have to ask - what's the difference between .470 NE and .470 Capstick? And, are you going on
Safari?

 

[Snuby642]

Wife told me her friend is going quilting at the church later today.

 

[Last Chance]

Just my opinion...I think it "went" as well as it could in the circumstances...Yes, the two good men killed were heroes also...My takeaway??? If I'm ever in a position of being near a pretty obviously suspicious person, I will do one of two things...1. leave, if possible...If not, turn my body away and draw my weapon, hiding it as well as I can...He who shoots first wins, usually...I carry insurance for the legal angles... Note: I'm old...CQB is beyond me...

 

[Lowlight]

Bump for location

 

[1J04]

Bump for location

Frank, there was a sticky here in the Pit that was titled "Good Guys With Guns". It appears to have disappeared.