Rifle Scopes Got a knot in my gut...

[JINKSTER]

as I was just about ready to hit the "Check-Out" tab on a Vortex Razor HD LHT 3-15X50 w/ G4i MRAD reticle when I decided to download and read the Reticle PDF manual from Vortex's website and noticed an obvious flaw in the bullet drop instructions and in all calibers which despite watching product vids and spending a good amount of net research time on this scope (which checked all my boxes for just a bit under $1K?...my warm fuzzy went hard and cold with me thinking...

"If They Missed That?"

pay close attention to their BD instructions regarding hash marks "B" & "C" and their respective positions...here's a screen shot of it...I really like the sound of this scope otherwise so please...reassure me...if it's with good conscience...or not...cause if they pay as much attention to making scopes as writing instructions?...I'll be leaning towards a Nightforce SHV...but I really think Vortex is offering more bang for the buck

 

[DairyDictator]

Simple typo. While embarrassing, I can assure you the engineering and production departments are checked more often than marketing. QC doesn't check all the manuals that go out. The product won't suffer at all. The written instructions explain correctly, so they clearly know how their scope works, they just screwed up the picture. Definitely an overreaction, and if something goes wrong, the guys at Vortex will make it right.

 

[G-Dog]

Wow, good eye, I would have missed that!

I love Vortex, love my Razor. For the price point, the scope you are considering does check a ton of boxes. I wouldn’t let a B/C inversion on an chart scare you one bit. Stuff happens and the document writers/marketers are not the engineers building the scopes.

For work I read a lot of scientific research papers (and work with researchers). Even after teams of researchers with PhDs finish a paper, the paper is reviewed by peers, and then approved by a final journal editor, mistakes often do happen. Chart legends have a mistake, labels use the wrong number, etc.

Get the scope, and go shooting. Shooting is more fun than spending too much time looking for typos

 

[smoothy8500]

Or buy a scope that is custom made to your caliber....

Quigley-Ford | Long Range Hunting Scopes

Custom long range scopes including patent pending dual focal plane and the best first focal plane or second focal plane rifle scopes for hunting & shooting

quigleyford.com

 

[Mordamer]

I'd be super worried about that too. After all, I'm sure the same guy that writes the instruction manual also designed, manufactured, and assembled the scope.

 

[hlee]

I'm more concerned that you are looking at a scope with a BDC reticle...

 

[JINKSTER]

I'm more concerned that you are looking at a scope with a BDC reticle...

Why so?

 

[JINKSTER]

Or buy a scope that is custom made to your caliber....

Quigley-Ford | Long Range Hunting Scopes

Custom long range scopes including patent pending dual focal plane and the best first focal plane or second focal plane rifle scopes for hunting & shooting

quigleyford.com

I’ll take a look see...thanks

 

[beetroot]

That's it, all my Vortex scopes are going in the trash now.
First they re-badge the Razor Gen 2 as the new Strike eagle and now this!!!

The shit bags at Vortex oughta be ashamed of themselves.

 

[JINKSTER]

Quigley/Ford is way over my budget...actually I’m a few hundred over budget with the Vortex HD LHT...probably why I got the knot in my gut.

 

[gconnoyer]

Why so?

Because depending on your range and usage, it may be totally worthless.
How can they make a BDC for your gun not knowing what the specs on your rifle, ammo, environment are?

even with a custom turret, ballistics at longer ranges will drastically change with a different lot of bullets, powder, temperature, etc.

 

[schmi015]

Dude, they referenced quigley ford as a joke. hlee is suggesting you buy a scope with mil reticle and mil turret or moa reticle and moa turret and learn your DOPE. Not just rely on a BDC.

 

[JINKSTER]

Dude, they referenced quigley ford as a joke. hlee is suggesting you buy a scope with mil reticle and mil turret or moa reticle and moa turret and learn your DOPE. Not just rely on a BDC.

Wow... I didn’t realize it was a joke but the condescending tones here sure are.

I won’t boast my experience to qualify my abilities so I guess any further communication is null and void

 

[schmi015]

Wow... I didn’t realize it was a joke but the condescending tones here sure are.

I won’t boast my experience to qualify my abilities so I guess any further communication is null and void

Please take it with a grain of salt.... look this site is a great resource, you just need to have thick skin or a quirky sense of humor. Read this thread and see how it worked out for MAGA. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/well-well-well-look-whos-back.7000760/

If you want an excellent starter scope, vortex is good, just save up a bit more cash for something moa/moa or mil/ mil. Another excellent scope is the bushnell lrts series please check this out, its what I would recommend. https://www.bushnell.com/products/r...al/elite-tactical-lrts-riflescopes-4-5-18x44/

 

[stello1001]

I do also think the product is a fine product regardless of the stupid errors. That should not be a reason to steer away if it did indeed check all or most of your boxes.

Like someone previously, the red flag comes from you wanting to stick to a BDC reticle. They never work and I'm not entirely sure why you want it. The scope maker cannot possibly know the cartridge, barrel length, number of grooved, bullet BC, MV, etc for everyone purchasing their scope. Even so, if they knew all that info from all of their customers, it's going to be completely different data from everyone and the BDC hashes will not be true to everyone. How can they say first hash equals a 4 inch drop, second hash 13 inches, etc? It's impossible for them to know that for your load and environmentals...

 

[dustingaunder]

I like the reticle as a simple duplex with an illuminated dot. I would dial my elevation in a hunting scope if I needed a come up. The windage should have half mill marks to maybe 2 mils and the reticle would be pretty cool imo.

 

[JINKSTER]

I do also think the product is a fine product regardless of the stupid errors. That should not be a reason to steer away if it did indeed check all or most of your boxes.

Like someone previously, the red flag comes from you wanting to stick to a BDC reticle. They never work and I'm not entirely sure why you want it. The scope maker cannot possibly know the cartridge, barrel length, number of grooved, bullet BC, MV, etc for everyone purchasing their scope. Even so, if they knew all that info from all of their customers, it's going to be completely different data from everyone and the BDC hashes will not be true to everyone. How can they say first hash equals a 4 inch drop, second hash 13 inches, etc? It's impossible for them to know that for your load and environmentals...

Please understand that I fully understand the limitations of BDC’s and that any accompanying literature or instructions are merely approximations...from there?...I zero in those hash marks with actual live fire using the intended ammo... I've doped out many rifles in and out of the United States Marine Corps.

I currently own two Vortex products...a 4-12 Diamondback on a 22wmr and a 3x Spitfire prism scope on my DPMS AP4 and like them both

 

[canezach]

I'm more concerned that you are looking at a scope with a BDC reticle...

Beat me to it

 

[koshkin]

I've seen typoes in manuals of scopes costing more than $3k. It happens.

ILya

 

[hlee]

I've seen typoes in manuals of scopes costing more than $3k. It happens.

ILya

Not to mention typos in manuals for instrumentation and machinery that cost many orders of magnitude more than even the most expensive rifle optic...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Why so?

Because every reticle is a BDC reticle when used properly.

 

[JINKSTER]

Beat me to it

After giving it some thought I can see were this is an issue and from and find myself asking...

“What’s the sense of having TURRETS with a BDC Reticle?”
So yes... you folks have a good point.

 

[canezach]

After giving it some thought I can see were this is an issue and from and find myself asking...

“What’s the sense of having TURRETS with a BDC Reticle?”
So yes... you folks have a good point.

It's more that a BDC reticle is set for a very specific set of parameters. A BDC for a 168 SMK going 2750 fps out of a 26" barrel at sea level in summertime won't work for anything but that load in those conditions. Now you want to shoot a 185 Juggernaut? Sorry, won't work. What if you still use the 168, but have a 22" barrel? Well, now you can't match that velocity, so no! How about if decide to switch calibers? Ooohhhh, it definitely won't work now! In theory, they're a good idea, but in practice they don't work well. Close? Sure! But on this site, close doesn't mean crap

 

[smoothy8500]

“What’s the sense of having TURRETS with a BDC Reticle?”
So yes... you folks have a good point.

Yeah, my "suggestion" was along the line of pulling your leg. Sorry, maybe I should have written it in purple font. I agree that elevation turret and BDC seem contradictory. Even more contradictory in my mind is the capped windage; Past the 300yd BDC mark wind is requiring Kentucky Windage without any visual reference to help guide you.

 

[JINKSTER]

Yeah, my "suggestion" was along the line of pulling your leg. Sorry, maybe I should have written it in purple font. I agree that elevation turret and BDC seem contradictory. Even more contradictory in my mind is the capped windage; Past the 300yd BDC mark wind is requiring Kentucky Windage without any visual reference to help guide you.

Well thanks folks... I guess there was good reason why I got a knot in my gut...God making sure I didn’t waste big bucks on a poorly thought out reticle/scope.

 

[dustingaunder]

I ordered the 42mm version in MRAD. Better reticle IMO.

 

[koshkin]

Folks, you are overcomplicating it.

The BDC reticle works fine at distance when there isn't a ton of wind. This is a hunting scope, so noone was designing it for 1000yard reticle use only shots. For people who do want to stretch its legs a bit, there is that nice exposed and locking elevation turret, so you can dial for distance and hold for wind.

Many people do not want a tree reticle, Personally, I do not want a tree reticle in a SFP scope.

ILya

 

[scharfschutze762]

OMG how the fuck did all them Marines kill them rags in Iraq with BDC reticles. Or how did all them SEAL snipers kill insurgents with 1st round hits with a BDC turret?
Some of you internet snipers are so full of shit, If i punched you in the fucking face would you remember your comeups or would you resort to using a BDC.
Ill put money on you using the BDC for anything under 600.

 

[HMRamateur]

I've seen typoes in manuals of scopes costing more than $3k. It happens.

ILya

Not to mention "typoes" by people who know everything there is to know about scopes. It happens

I would only be worried about a typo if my scope came to me with "vortek" written on it.

 

[hlee]

OMG how the fuck did all them Marines kill them rags in Iraq with BDC reticles.
Volume of fire.
Or how did all them SEAL snipers kill insurgents with 1st round hits with a BDC turret?
Their training ammunition budget surpasses that of the marines.

 

[scharfschutze762]

asswipe you ever even put on an american uniform? not talking about your fucking commie one either.

 

[JINKSTER]

asswipe you ever even put on an american uniform? not talking about your fucking commie one either.

as covid19 cabin fever continues to exact it's toll.

 

[scharfschutze762]

No cabin fever here my friend as I shoot and test weapons and optics on a regular schedule while collecting a paycheck.
But serves me right getting sucked into an argument involving scopes that poor people buy.

 

[JakeM]

OMG how the fuck did all them Marines kill them rags in Iraq with BDC reticles. Or how did all them SEAL snipers kill insurgents with 1st round hits with a BDC turret?
Some of you internet snipers are so full of shit, If i punched you in the fucking face would you remember your comeups or would you resort to using a BDC.
Ill put money on you using the BDC for anything under 600.

And the native Americans used sharp sticks for 1,000s of years, get off your high horse and gig an elk.

 

[srt-4_uk]

How many millions did Ghenghis Khan and his army kill with iron sights on his blades? Or how about the Trojans? You internet gun slingers are so full of shit.

 

[scharfschutze762]

And the native Americans used sharp sticks for 1,000s of years, get off your high horse and gig an elk.

and you are none of the above

 

[hlee]

asswipe you ever even put on an american uniform? not talking about your fucking commie one either.

The govt accountability office says the us military expended(s) 250,000 rounds per enemy insurgent killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. So, yeah, volume of fire.

I'm not sure what reticle is in seal sniper scopes, but I'm pretty sure army and marine snipers have been using some variant of a mrad based "mil-dot," Christmas tree, or grid reticle for ages.

 

[JakeM]

and you are none of the above

A Native a horse or an elk?

 

[JINKSTER]

Well I ditched the BDC vortex reticle idea and added a Weaver 800363 3-15X50mm SF Illuminated EMDR Reticle to my Natchez cart for $533.49 along with a set of Leupold Ruger M77 30mm High mount rings but things have gotten so mucky here?...I began to wonder how Carlos ever survived Vietnam with a lowly 8X Unertl scope on his Win. Mod. 70 and as the sun went down and the sky turned to dusk?...I broke out my 23 year old 3-9X50 Baush & Lomb Elite 3000 on top of my 33 year old M77 30.06 for a looksee and all $600 worth of that stuff?...is still in the cart..screw it.

 

[FightNorce]

my frog buddies relied on their dope cards not bdc turrrets...

 

[JakeM]

Well I ditched the BDC vortex reticle idea and added a Weaver 800363 3-15X50mm SF Illuminated EMDR Reticle to my Natchez cart for $533.49 along with a set of Leupold Ruger M77 30mm High mount rings but things have gotten so mucky here?...I began to wonder how Carlos ever survived Vietnam with a lowly 8X Unertl scope on his Win. Mod. 70 and as the sun went down and the sky turned to dusk?...I broke out my 23 year old 3-9X50 Baush & Lomb Elite 3000 on top of my 33 year old M77 30.06 for a looksee and all $600 worth of that stuff?...is still in the cart..screw it.

He also held the world record longest kill shot for 30 something years with a 3x9 redfield but there is a reason why people shooting 2,000yd aren’t using 3x9 Redfields. Get the best gear you can possibly buy.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Dude...
The average fucking uncle buck hunter who shoots maybe a box of ammo year doesnt need a christmas tree reticle... thats all im saying

 

[hlee]

Let me guess, shortshart, you think only .mil can shoot. Bwahahahaha!!!

 

[scharfschutze762]

hahah Ralf out Roud!

 

[hlee]

hahah Ralf out Roud!

Swing and a miss. I bet @Blue Sky Country would love you...

 

[JakeM]

Dude...
The average fucking uncle buck hunter who shoots maybe a box of ammo year doesnt need a christmas tree reticle... thats all im saying

Nobody “needs” a tree unless it’s a no dial prs stage. I never said anyone needed them and personally I don’t care for them.