Grand River Tactical

Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David777</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lee, I've tried to get a hold of him for 6 weeks as I have 3 bags on order, I have not heard anything back. More than a little frustrating. </div></div>

It's now been over a month since the last update, and 3 weeks past the last time we were told they were going to ship.
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Re: Grand River Tactical

He is a little slow, but compared to some of the other gear I own that was sent to me within a day or two, it's not a comparison at all.

I had sort of the same issue. I just messaged him to ask what was going on with my order (provided my name and order info in the message). I got my response later that day and the gear a couple days later.

I'm sure the guy is swamped, but he really produces some great gear.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

Just a suggestion, you say you have your brother help you out, and you are the main go to guy making everything. You could help decrease the bottle neck by offloading some the communication piece to him.

We do something similar where i work. You can sign up for a free googlevoice account and get a new phone number (free). In google voice you can add your number and your brothers as well as a voice mail message / instructions etc as needed. From there you can set it up to ring both you and him, or you, or just him on the fly. That way you can ensure communication is free flowing. Likewise you can use e-mail distros in the same way. That way he can handle a chunk of the communication and set expectations and you can get back to slinging thread.

Just a suggestion that we have found decreases overhead, i will be happy to assist you in setting it up if you want, just send me a PM.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

this is off his site,
"Due to the demand for high quality nylon gear for the demanding rifleman, Grand River Tactical products have an estimated 6-10 week lead time. Lead times are estimated and can vary, less or more, depending on season, and/or demand."
I can agree with your frustration but I will be up that way in another month for my Yellow Ribbon event, PM me in three weeks and maybe I can knock on his door and ask his as to times on your orders.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can agree with your frustration but I will be up that way in another month for my Yellow Ribbon event, PM me in three weeks and maybe I can knock on his door and ask his as to times on your orders. </div></div>

Thanks armydog, I PM'ed you my info and really appreciate your offer.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this is off his site,
"Due to the demand for high quality nylon gear for the demanding rifleman, Grand River Tactical products have an estimated 6-10 week lead time. Lead times are estimated and can vary, less or more, depending on season, and/or demand."</div></div>

So, most of us who got in on the 2.0 folder group buy are at least 15-16 weeks out at this point, has anyone made contact this week?
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David777</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No success, but sure would like an update. </div></div>

+1 on the update.

I'm in for 2- 2.0 Bags, and it would be nice to know something.

Lee
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

I realize this will ruffle a few feathers, and I'm not trying to be a jerk to what is evidently a highly regarded purveyor. But man, a lot is left to be desired in how this has been handled.

Let me be clear, I don't mind paying a premium for quality gear and I don't mind waiting. Good things usually are expensive and in demand.

My payment cleared on June 11th. I've e-mailed him a simple request for status in July, August and now October without a reply.

A post of his awhile back indicated that they were just waiting for hardware to ship. He's also indicated awhile back that they were starting to ship. It's long past that point with no contact or updates.

I don't mind continuing to wait, but after having paid in advance, I don't think it's unreasonable to be kept in the loop or given some idea of ETA.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

Anyone have contact with Nick?

Last update we had it sounded like he was just swamped with work, and GRT.
Lets hope it is nothing more than being too busy at his "real job" to the point he has been ignoring the GRT end of things.

But it would be nice to know something.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCJones</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have contact with Nick?

Last update we had it sounded like he was just swamped with work, and GRT.
Lets hope it is nothing more than being too busy at his "real job" to the point he has been ignoring the GRT end of things.

But it would be nice to know something. </div></div>

I'm going to call today. I've been waiting on my bag/mat since March and 2 months ago I was told it was complete except for the scope cover. I told him to go ahead and wait and ship it all together but I had no idea it would still be this much longer. If you guys are having trouble contacting him I would do the same. Emails/PMs don't seem to be the fastest way so go ahead and call.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

First off, I apologize how this is going.

Please understand that this was not an item that I make as a "production" item. The first few bags that I made for a few guys got such high praise after pictures were posted that people started contacting me about getting their hands on a bag like this, since it IS NOT MADE OR AVAILABLE ANY WHERE ELSE. There were some things that I wanted to refine from the first bags, like beefier zippers, and other hardware that I had not previously stocked. Some of these items are difficult to source, and when I do find them, there are minimum purchase requirements to get them...like zippers, they are not cheap, and when I have to purchase 300 yards at a time, then with the pulls, the logistics are hard to handle for such a small outfit. Finding components made in the USA is difficult and takes a lot of time to track down. Fortunately there is no shortage of fellow gear makers to help out sourcing quality USA made materials (Thanks to Stu at RedTac, he has been huge in helping out with finding hardware and materials that are USA made, and Tony at TAB).

Regardless of all the stuff that has to happen behind the scenes, to make a single product, I still have to contend with the constant order bombardment from other entities, including, but not limited to the public, LEO, and Government. I just finished work for a Australian group which set me back a week and an USA based outfit that took over three weeks to finish. These are the types of things that have been setting me back for years, but I feel they are the most validating business that I can do. Not to mention the hundreds of Impact Data Book covers that I make every other month. I am in demand, for good reasons. The gear sought out by casual shooters like myself, who like shooting on the weekends, is also in the hands of operators serving the US and allies around the globe.

As far as time to produce gear, there is nothing I can really do. I am working as fast as possible, and still have to factor in time for my wife and kids, and to me that is a huge priority in my life, much bigger than GRT, but have been putting them second trying to maintain a favorable company image, but seem to be failing miserable working 24 hours a day, more than 3 days a week, and 18-20 hours the rest of the time.

It seems like no one can get a hold of me here via telephone, but I just took 40 min to look at my call logs sine 10/1/11 an in that time I took 212 calls from numbers unknown. 164 I answered, and in that time, spent a total of 8 hours and 41 minutes on the phone. The other calls were missed, due to my regular work schedule, or being behind the machine. I will not answer my phone if I am on a client site, or doing training for obvious reasons. If I am on the road, I answer and will talk as long as one wishes. I will not answer my phone if I am sewing, or out with my family. The phone is something I have grown to despise. Mostly because the only questions I get are order updates. I am an extreme optimist, and that is why I miss lead times, I tend not to account for the unforeseen issues.

Every time that I do a Sniper's Hide Group buy, that I take a huge cut out on profits to get my gear in that hands of shooters who can appreciate it at a nice discount, it turns into a large shit storm, because some people just can not grasp the fact that I can not get my Asians to work faster. That is not how it works. I have no cheap labor force. I tried outsourcing to several local companies, but nothing was done the way I wanted it, and they all argued about the efficiency of it. I don't give a rat's ass about efficiency, I have never noticed efficiency when a piece of gear fails or works better than expected. I may eventually find a place that will do it, but then there is another problem, I didn't make it, and am handing ownership of that product off and I am the one standing behind it. I just don't trust anyone else to make it, and I am sure this is something that everyone can understand.

To be honest, I love to sew, and I love making new gear, but when I read the stuff like this, I just think it is not worth it, not worth it to my family to see me a couple days a week, unless they want to sit in the shop (and they do), not worth the stress of constantly babysitting peoples expectations or delivery times, not worth the criticizing of not caring about customers. It is a lot of BS that started out as good fun making cool stuff.

Falar, your order is boxed and will ship Monday. Cluebat, yours in done, and will go out Monday. I am working on 3 other bags at the moment, and will ship sometime between Monday and Friday.

To keep things in perspective, I am sewing gear for guys that want stuff specific to a need or want. It is done correct, with the best materials, and will last a life time, and that is guaranteed. When you get your items, you will determine that it was worth the wait, though, it is not a life changing event, so lets treat it as such. I too am a customer in the custom gun world, and I was/am a pretty uppity bitch about getting my stuff immediately, but didn't understand the logistics of it all. I know as much as anyone, or maybe more than most, when you order custom stuff, from small companies that do a much, much better job than off the shelf stuff, it takes time, because of the attention to detail and very small workforce who's purpose is perfection.

No disrespect to anyone at all, and I greatly appreciate and am very thankful for everyone's business, everyone will have their bags soon, and they will be done right. Just seems that this is where everyone is blowing off a little steam, so I figured I would take a turn.

Stay safe.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

Nick is a great guy and the demand for his products are high. He is a one man show and I know for a fact the guy is working as fast as he can in order to keep everyone happy while providing the best quality gear to make your shooting a sucess.

PS I will be needing another large order soon!!
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Re: Grand River Tactical

Nick, hang in there! You are blessed with client demand, and have the opportunity to do what you enjoy. Scaling a business is very hard, and maintaining quality at scale is a tremendous endeavor. I appreciate your focus on quality.

I only buy quality made in USA products. My orders from GRT, TacOps, Impact, Triad, Viking, and GAP have exceeded expectations. When buying for a lifetime, a few months wait is a small price.

I was surprised after you wrote long and thoughtful post, an OP used the public forum to request a status check. If you think an order queuing system and status check system would help manage expectations and reduce calls, I would be interested on working with you to put an online system in place.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical


Something that might help on this, and cut down the number of e-mails/calls you get, what about keeping a running status on the first page?

Just queue up the list of people who have ordered on the group buy in the first post on the thread, and just update it as each is shipped.

Hell, even post "No updates will be provided outside this thread". But just knowing that this isn't an abandon project or even roughly how far out we are, would go a long way.

In the end, it's probably easier to take 30 seconds to post on the thread instead of getting all those calls.
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Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tdow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think this is Nick's style, but it seems like he needs to raise his prices.

He sure does good work. It was worth the wait for me.</div></div>

That is what I have done in the past to control order volume, but it just didn't work.

There is a limit to what I think I should charge. I do not want my stuff to be priced like TAD gear or anything like that, because then before long I am known as yuppie gear, because only the wealthy can afford it. TAD is great stuff, but I will never pay what they want for it, and that statement right there is something that I do not want associated with my company.

The guys that I shoot matches with, are great folks, and many are like myself, scraping it all together just to get there and have fun. I have been to several matches wondering if I would make it home on the fumes in my tank...and I know I am not the only one
wink.gif
. The greatest thing to me is to see guys at matches using GRT Gear, and I want to make sure that continues to happen, through competitive prices.

I believe that I could raise prices and stay busy to a very manageable degree, so much so that the loss in orders would be some what negated by higher prices, and that sounds nice, but to me that is selfish in a way that doesn't have anything to do with money.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Falar, your order is boxed and will ship Monday. Cluebat, yours in done, and will go out Monday. I am working on 3 other bags at the moment, and will ship sometime between Monday and Friday.</div></div>

Any updates on our bags? It's been two weeks since they were slated to ship and as far as I know, neither Falar nor I have received them.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cluebat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Falar, your order is boxed and will ship Monday. Cluebat, yours in done, and will go out Monday. I am working on 3 other bags at the moment, and will ship sometime between Monday and Friday.</div></div>

Any updates on our bags? It's been two weeks since they were slated to ship and as far as I know, neither Falar nor I have received them. </div></div>

You would be correct.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

Saw Nick all weekend, He shot my match, Also had to pull his jeep out of the mud friday morning,

He had to get the jeep fixed to go home today {monday}
Hope this helps

miker
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

Nick, I know you have been busy. We spoke about a month ago and the lead time was a couple of weeks out. I have been trying to call you, but no answer and I left a couple of messages. Just need a call back or email, something to let me know the update. I totally understand you are swamped, just touch bases with me is all I ask, don't really care if it is going to be delayed, just need an update as my buddy has been askin about his case. ( regarding edm arms cases)
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

Hi Nick.

Curious about an update on my AICS 2.0 bag as well. I spoke with you (I think) sometime in early October or late September. I placed the order on 8/13 (not a group buy or anything) and was just curious if you had an ETA on it. The name on the order is Scott shipping to Northridge, CA.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

I have no experience with their gear but I will say that I only do business with companies that make it easy to buy from. I'm sure it's quality and worth the wait, but the one luxury that I will pay extra for is customer service and delivery time. It seems like the shooting sports are filled with boutique companies that cant keep up with demand. I'm waiting 8 weeks for some kit I ordered now. The only reason I'm waiting is because they're the only company making it (skid plate).
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

From talking with Nick at my match a couple weeks ago, He is waiting on good zippers from some supply company. He won't use cheap material just to make a sale. I have some of his stuff, It's worth the wait, hang in there.

miker...READE RANGE
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: miker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From talking with Nick at my match a couple weeks ago, He is waiting on good zippers from some supply company. He won't use cheap material just to make a sale. I have some of his stuff, It's worth the wait, hang in there.

miker...READE RANGE</div></div>

He said on 08/04 (in this thread) that he was waiting on zippers. It can't possibly take 3 months to find suitable zippers..
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

I don't mind the wait, just would like an update. I have heard nothing but good things from folks about Nick. I was a little worried and thought maybe something happened to him.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

I just spoke with Nick. Nothing but pleasant things to say about him. As he is swamped trying to pump out quality gear for us and is waiting on some parts as well such as zippers and such. All I can say is be patient and hang in there. He is good people.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCJones</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the update Rem. I'm glad someone called, and got hold of Nick.

I'm drinking 16yo Scotch right now, the really good stuff takes the time it takes.

Lee </div></div>

But does shipping really take a month? It was nearly a month ago I was told that my bag was shipping the following Monday.

And please don't label me impatient. I paid on March 8th and was quoted 6-8 weeks. I didn't even start asking about my order status until August. At that time I was told the bag was done and the scope cover was not and I had no problem waiting until the cover was done so they could ship together. I'm just starting to wonder what the story really is now because up until the post stating my order was about to ship I really had no complaints but now something seems off.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCJones</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the update Rem. I'm glad someone called, and got hold of Nick.

I'm drinking 16yo Scotch right now, the really good stuff takes the time it takes.

Lee </div></div>

But does shipping really take a month? It was nearly a month ago I was told that my bag was shipping the following Monday.

And please don't label me impatient. I paid on March 8th and was quoted 6-8 weeks. I didn't even start asking about my order status until August. At that time I was told the bag was done and the scope cover was not and I had no problem waiting until the cover was done so they could ship together. I'm just starting to wonder what the story really is now because up until the post stating my order was about to ship I really had no complaints but now something seems off. </div></div>

Dang, 8 months. I guess I really have no reason to complain then, because I placed my order on August 13th. So I a have been waiting for about 3 months. I was excited when I found Nick's website for a custom AICS 2.0 bag, as there really isn't anything else out there like it. Now I am starting to think I'll never see the damn thing? Well, guess I may have just thrown 300 bucks down the drain. Great.

I have been carrying my rifle in an old Guitar gig bag, as I didn't want to buy something as I was waiting for this one...If it's going to take over 8 months, I guess it's time to start shopping for a different bag. This plain sucks.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

From what I a hearing, his stuff is of great quality. I don't plan on geting rid of any of my guns, and it might suck to transport our rifles in a pos case or make shift case, but I think we will be very happy with our gear once we get it. Til then we will have to embrace the suck. Hang in there fellas.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chinaski</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCJones</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the update Rem. I'm glad someone called, and got hold of Nick.

I'm drinking 16yo Scotch right now, the really good stuff takes the time it takes.

Lee </div></div>

But does shipping really take a month? It was nearly a month ago I was told that my bag was shipping the following Monday.

And please don't label me impatient. I paid on March 8th and was quoted 6-8 weeks. I didn't even start asking about my order status until August. At that time I was told the bag was done and the scope cover was not and I had no problem waiting until the cover was done so they could ship together. I'm just starting to wonder what the story really is now because up until the post stating my order was about to ship I really had no complaints but now something seems off. </div></div>

Dang, 8 months. I guess I really have no reason to complain then, because I placed my order on August 13th. So I a have been waiting for about 3 months. I was excited when I found Nick's website for a custom AICS 2.0 bag, as there really isn't anything else out there like it. Now I am starting to think I'll never see the damn thing? Well, guess I may have just thrown 300 bucks down the drain. Great.

I have been carrying my rifle in an old Guitar gig bag, as I didn't want to buy something as I was waiting for this one...If it's going to take over 8 months, I guess it's time to start shopping for a different bag. This plain sucks. </div></div>
This thread has turned to shit from a bunch of wimpy ass piss on everyone like the post above. Nicks gear is better than anything out there but he is not some huge shop so don't expect a add to cart and pick up next week. If his gear was so bad then why does everything think there is such a demand for his product? Do you expect him to have no life and wait for your beckoning call. Come on stop this bashing shit.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

Couldn't agree with you more Strangedays. I want my gear done right, and I am willing to wait for it. Id rather do it right once than do it twice.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chinaski</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCJones</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the update Rem. I'm glad someone called, and got hold of Nick.

I'm drinking 16yo Scotch right now, the really good stuff takes the time it takes.

Lee </div></div>

But does shipping really take a month? It was nearly a month ago I was told that my bag was shipping the following Monday.

And please don't label me impatient. I paid on March 8th and was quoted 6-8 weeks. I didn't even start asking about my order status until August. At that time I was told the bag was done and the scope cover was not and I had no problem waiting until the cover was done so they could ship together. I'm just starting to wonder what the story really is now because up until the post stating my order was about to ship I really had no complaints but now something seems off. </div></div>

Dang, 8 months. I guess I really have no reason to complain then, because I placed my order on August 13th. So I a have been waiting for about 3 months. I was excited when I found Nick's website for a custom AICS 2.0 bag, as there really isn't anything else out there like it. Now I am starting to think I'll never see the damn thing? Well, guess I may have just thrown 300 bucks down the drain. Great.

I have been carrying my rifle in an old Guitar gig bag, as I didn't want to buy something as I was waiting for this one...If it's going to take over 8 months, I guess it's time to start shopping for a different bag. This plain sucks. </div></div>
This thread has turned to shit from a bunch of wimpy ass piss on everyone like the post above. Nicks gear is better than anything out there but he is not some huge shop so don't expect a add to cart and pick up next week. If his gear was so bad then why does everything think there is such a demand for his product? Do you expect him to have no life and wait for your beckoning call. Come on stop this bashing shit. </div></div>

Nobody is 'bashing' anybody. When the guy tells somebody that their item will be shipping in literally a few days and a month goes by with no item, that's WRONG. I don't care how good his stuff is. I'm sure he makes excellent stuff (which I have yet to see), but come on! You buy the item, he says 6 to 12 weeks delivery (fine), but the gentleman above has been waiting for what, 32 weeks? Almost a year? With no updates and nothing but 'I'm getting it out Monday'....and then a month goes by.

The guy is swamped, we understand that. I will be patient for as long as it takes, and once I (hopefully) receive what I BOUGHT for 300 bucks, I am sure I will be happy.

He needs to be more considerate to his customers, that's all. Perhaps updates on his website? I don't know.

I've talked to Nick on the phone, and he generally seems like a nice fella, I am not 'bashing' him. But his business has obviously consumed him, perhaps it's time for him to reevaluate and make himself more efficient.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This thread has turned to shit from a bunch of wimpy ass piss on everyone like the post above. Nicks gear is better than anything out there but he is not some huge shop so don't expect a add to cart and pick up next week. If his gear was so bad then why does everything think there is such a demand for his product? Do you expect him to have no life and wait for your beckoning call. Come on stop this bashing shit.</div></div>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have a dog in this fight, do you? Most of us who are <span style="font-weight: bold">inquiring</span> (not bashing) as to where the merchandise is that we paid for up front (in some cases up to 8 months ago). The "worst case scenario" ship dates for these products has now slipped several months past the date outlined up front when we ordered our bags, and the manufacturer hasn't been bothered to take the time to reach out to what are now working out to be an angry mob (and rightfully so.)

I have not seen a single person post in this thread saying that they questioned Nick's ability to make a fine product. I don't think a single person here would have put down the kind of money we did on his product if we felt it wasn't going to be worth every penny. What we're upset about, is that he is not being forthcoming about why there are delays, what he's doing about it, and when exactly we can expect the bags most of us expected many months ago.

Would I have plopped $300 down if I knew I'd have to wait 6 months for a bag? Custom or not, I'd probably have taken my money elsewhere. However, when I ponied up my money, we were told and I quote: "To be completely upfront, you may be waiting until the end of July to begining of August (worst case scenario) for some of the last orders to come in.".

It's now November. August has come and gone, as has September and October. I was told a month ago that my bag was completed and would be shipping the following Monday, and I thought the wait was over. However, I was a bit skeptical, and rightfully so because fast forward a month, and I still don't have my bag.

If I come across as bitchy, so be it. I'm tired of biting my tongue around here for fear of retribution because of the rampant fanboyism that goes on here. You can make the greatest damn product in the entire world, but if you're not attentive to your customers needs (or you flat out aren't shipping products), then what good does it do you?
 
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I can do without his personal attacks.

I am NOT willing to wait over 8 months for a rifle bag. Nick, if you could refund my money that would be greatly appreciated. I am sure the workmanship of your items is great, but I am not willing to wait almost a year for a rifle bag. I'll take my money elsewhere. My order was placed on 8/13, under Scott.

Edit, it won't be greatly appreciated, it's my damned money give it back.
 
Re: Grand River Tactical


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cluebat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have a dog in this fight, do you? Most of us who are <span style="font-weight: bold">inquiring</span> (not bashing) </div></div>
I have purchased and yes waited for Nicks gear and you know when I purchased my first DPMS rifle it took 13 months to show up and I didn't bitch and throw a huge fit about even with more than half the cash put up front. Point is there are some things worth waiting for and if there has been no answer in a PM or e-mail then what makes you think starting a thread full of a bunch of bashers is going to go over?