Grendel AR15 vs AR10 and a trigger question

[SuperSneakySniper]

Hey guys,

I usually run a bolt gun for long range stuff, but the PRS's new "Gas Gun" series has perked my interest in getting a Semi. Rules there state that the targets don't exceed 800 yards, which begs the question:

Is there any reason to go with a heavier, more expensive AR10 rather than a lighter cheaper 6.5 Grendel AR15 for 800 yards? Surely the difference between .308 and 6mm and 6.5CM and 6.5 Grendel shouldn't be THAT much at 800 right? Then considering, since 800 yards is the MAX distance, it's safe to assume that MOST targets will be within 400-600 yards, where I doubt I could tell the performance difference between the calibers.

Reason being, I can save quite a deal of money if I just build a Grendel on my existing .223 AR. If I went AR10, I'd have to start from scratch. Secondly, building on my .223 lower allows me to compete in both Light and Open divisions by just swapping uppers.

Thoughts?

Also, I currently run my .223 AR with the ever popular CMC 3.5 drop-in trigger, is it worth saving up for a better one for long range stuff? I've taken it out to 600 and it works for me just fine but would you guys think I'd be better off with something better/lighter?

 

[bigjake83]

The Grendel is an excellent idea, but I would put some money into it on so quality parts if you're going to compete. It you went with the Fat Rat you would have the edge over a lot of people.

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

The Grendel is an excellent idea, but I would put some money into it on so quality parts if you're going to compete. It you went with the Fat Rat you would have the edge over a lot of people.

Uh oh... My inner noob is showing... What do you mean by Fat Rat? I've heard that term before, isn't that a 6mm Wildcat handload? I'd prefer to run factory ammo if given the option since most of my time will be spent with bolt-actions. But i'll look into it, I haven't considered it before but I'll definitely take a peek!

Anyone got trigger recommendations? Or should that CMC 3.5lb suffice? I've never shot Precision gas gun before so I don't really know what the folks are runnin'. I just don't want to be kickin' myself later for not alloting some budget money into a better trigger if that is needed.

 

[Forward543]

Trigger is fine. Just practice. You could shoot 75 bthp's out of a .223 and compete. A wildcat, 6.5 grendel, or 6.8 spc would also be fine. Really if you dont need .308 energy the options are quite extensive. .223 is most cost effective, with lowest recoil. The rest will all work, just pick one and shoot it alot.

 

[Rangemaster]

The Grendel is an excellent idea, but I would put some money into it on so quality parts if you're going to compete. It you went with the Fat Rat you would have the edge over a lot of people.

I agree go with the fat rat.

 

[Rangemaster]

Uh oh... My inner noob is showing... What do you mean by Fat Rat? I've heard that term before, isn't that a 6mm Wildcat handload? I'd prefer to run factory ammo if given the option since most of my time will be spent with bolt-actions. But i'll look into it, I haven't considered it before but I'll definitely take a peek!

Anyone got trigger recommendations? Or should that CMC 3.5lb suffice? I've never shot Precision gas gun before so I don't really know what the folks are runnin'. I just don't want to be kickin' myself later for not alloting some budget money into a better trigger if that is needed.

Fat Rat can be found here: http://www.accurateandreliablerifle.com/products.html

i have a timney two-stage trigger in my rat gun, this one: http://www.timneytriggers.com/shop/AR-Targa-2-Stage-Short-Trigger-P77.aspx

 

[lte82]

Lee Wells (Accurate & Reliable Rifles) builds a really nice rifle, and I'm not just saying that because I'm on his testimonial link. ;-)

A 6mm of some type like the fat rat, or even just a standard 6mm AR would be great. 105's @ 2800+ is dang near unbeatable for inside 800 yards in that class. With that said, Tyler Payne won the gas gun opener with a 223 & 77's, so it sounds like you don't need much more to be competitive.

 

[steve123]

Too me it's about which cartridge has the least wind drift. That's where the Fat Rat pulls ahead. Like mine sending 105 hybrids/.536BC at 2780 fps. I was shooting my FatRat at 675Y a few days ago and also my 6x47l which sends the same bullet 345 fps faster. There's not much difference in the wind at that distance, like .2 mil only. Also the recoil is mild.

Handload only proposition for both those.

If I want to play around I shoot my 223 upper, if I want to get more serious it's the FatRat. Big difference in the wind. I never got a 6.5 Grendel because a friend had one and he struggled in the wind compared to me, well at the time that was with my 6mmAR Turbo 40 which is almost identical to the FatRat.

 

[bigjake83]

Too me it's about which cartridge has the least wind drift. That's where the Fat Rat pulls ahead. Like mine sending 105 hybrids/.536BC at 2780 fps. I was shooting my FatRat at 675Y a few days ago and also my 6x47l which sends the same bullet 345 fps faster. There's not much difference in the wind at that distance, like .2 mil only. Also the recoil is mild.

Handload only proposition for both those.

If I want to play around I shoot my 223 upper, if I want to get more serious it's the FatRat. Big difference in the wind. I never got a 6.5 Grendel because a friend had one and he struggled in the wind compared to me, well at the time that was with my 6mmAR Turbo 40 which is almost identical to the FatRat.

^^^^what he said^^^^

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

Interesting... Well I think what I'll do is build an accurate .223 77gr setup for now, shoot for cheaper and get some experience under my belt, and when I get the reloading equipment and components (and confidence in hand loading) to try the Fat Rat, I'll give er' a go!

 

[bigjake83]

Interesting... Well I think what I'll do is build an accurate .223 77gr setup for now, shoot for cheaper and get some experience under my belt, and when I get the reloading equipment and components (and confidence in hand loading) to try the Fat Rat, I'll give er' a go!

For the FatRat you want to contact Lee Wells at accurateandreliablerifles.com he invented the FatRat Round and is a outstanding guy, with the best prices around.. tell him Jake told you to call and he'll hook you up.

 

[6.5MMLRShooter]

As others have said the benefit of the bigger gun/ or bigger cartridge would be with wind drift. The grendel is very easy to make hits with out to 600 yards but after that the Creedmoor gives you a huge edge. Another thing that has not been discussed is the weight of an AR15 based Grendel vs AR10 Creedmoor. Depending on how many odd positions you have to shoot or mobile stages you have the weight savings might be a big help. I personally shoot my Grendel at local matches because of the number of shots taken without support. It is difficult to make shots at that 800-900 yard mark though where as its a breeze with my Creedmoor.

 

[Triple D]

A 6mm of some type like the fat rat, or even just a standard 6mm AR would be great. 105's @ 2800+ is dang near unbeatable for inside 800 yards in that class. With that said, Tyler Payne won the gas gun opener with a 223 & 77's, so it sounds like you don't need much more to be competitive.

Pretty sure Tyler was running a JP LRP-07 in 6 creedmoor, pushing the 105's at around 2975. Tyler is a great shooter, he likely could have won without the extra horsepower of the 6creed, but maybe not by 200pts!

 

[cactusbrew]

For the FatRat you want to contact Lee Wells at accurateandreliablerifles.com he invented the FatRat Round and is a outstanding guy, with the best prices around.. tell him Jake told you to call and he'll hook you up.

Not to jump topic but what's the shortest barrel you can go with the fat rat and still get the necessary velocity you need?

I think it'd be a hell of an interesting round but I'd want to run it suppressed and don't want a 30 plus inch barrel (with can).

 

[bigjake83]

Not to jump topic but what's the shortest barrel you can go with the fat rat and still get the necessary velocity you need?

I think it'd be a hell of an interesting round but I'd want to run it suppressed and don't want a 30 plus inch barrel (with can).

The shortest I would run is 22"...

 

[LRRPF52]

Trigger is fine. Just practice. You could shoot 75 bthp's out of a .223 and compete. A wildcat, 6.5 grendel, or 6.8 spc would also be fine. Really if you dont need .308 energy the options are quite extensive. .223 is most cost effective, with lowest recoil. The rest will all work, just pick one and shoot it alot.

.223s have been beating .308 already for a while in the caliber limited divisions. AR10s are more difficult to hold in position due to the receiver and BCG size, and recoil is not your friend when shooting from improvised positions. Guns don't sit well, and you have a hard time spotting your own hits/misses, which adds extra time and unrecoverable critical data from the shot.

6mm Grendel will probably end up being the cartridge to beat in these types of matches for these reasons.