Gunsmithing Gunsmith school?

[MTS308]

I have a question for you guys. Is it really worth going to college for 2 years to get a AAS in gunsmithing?
I'm a cnc machinist and have been seriously thinking about going to college and looking for a job in a custom shop upon graduation. Or should I consider trying to find a established reputable gunsmith that would take me on now and apprentice under him.
I've been looking into schools ( Montgomery in NC Yavapai in AZ....etc) and for what it cost in tuition alone I can buy a lathe, Bridgeport style mill and most other required tooling and teach myself.
Just seeing what the opinions here are. Thanks

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I personally would hire a person with cnc experience (especially one with programming experience) over a "degree'd" gunsmith.

Edited To Add:
Maybe call Kentucky Gun Co in Bardstown and see if they will let you volunteer in their gunsmith department on your days off.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[1moaoff]

LRI was looking for help... thay are a machining honey hole in the industry

 

[Ledzep]

From the guys I've talked to who've gone through Trinidad (and granted they went through near 10 years ago) I'd say most of what is taught is on par for like 1980. A lot of old school knowledge-- not necessarily bad info because gunsmithing by and large does not require fancy machines or exotic methods, but even so it's on the stale side. I have heard that there are some efforts to modernize the material a bit, though.

What's your end goal? Want to run your own shop or just enjoy working on guns?

 

[MTS308]

From the guys I've talked to who've gone through Trinidad (and granted they went through near 10 years ago) I'd say most of what is taught is on par for like 1980. A lot of old school knowledge-- not necessarily bad info because gunsmithing by and large does not require fancy machines or exotic methods, but even so it's on the stale side. I have heard that there are some efforts to modernize the material a bit, though.

What's your end goal? Want to run your own shop or just enjoy working on guns?

I'm not 100% positive what my end goal is at the moment. I enjoy working on rifles but could care less about shotgun or pistol work.
I'm at a point in my career that I can persue the CNC machining and programming and make a lot more money with benefits probably than gunsmithing. Or try my hand at custom rifle work and in doing so get away from the big corporation and standard factory production work.
As of now my job experience is 6.5 years machine shop. 2.5 of which has been operating a 5 axis VMC. I can read minimal gcode mcode but not well enough for programming. I know the basics of manual lathe and mill work but by far am not a expert.
I guess if I was to stay in the CNC business I would do gunsmith work as a hobby or part time second job. But at the moment I don't have the hands on experience for gunsmithing ( truing actions. Precision chambering. Barrel threading.... etc.) I would like to eventually run my own business IF I could make enough money at it to keep my head above water.
So at the moment I'm just seeing what the options are and trying to figure out my best option.

 

[Ledzep]

One way or another once you have basic mill/lathe concepts down it's really just a matter of experience and getting hands-on with some gun-related projects. Like I said, there's really not much gunsmithing work that's exotic or especially challenging once you know how to run the machines. I'd say the biggest issue making it a full-time job is time-management to make it profitable. Fixtures and processes that will allow you to get the work done properly and quickly enough that you can stay competitive with pricing and still make money.

I think the way to go about it with the least at stake is to buy yourself your own manual lathe and mill, collect some tooling, make fixtures etc... and work on your own projects until you feel very comfortable with it all. This way you can do everything at your own pace and keep your day job. You'll probably break some things but you won't have unhappy customers breathing down your neck and you won't owe anyone anything. From that point you can decide if you want to go further with it or not, and get licensed up and start doing weekend work for other people and grow it from there.

The alternative is to try and hop on with an established builder/shop. YMMV. I worked at LRI for a while and loved the work but would hands down rate it as my worst employment experience to date (emphasis on WORST). Suffice it to say there's a sizable group of us that have passed through there with less than ecstatic memories. Get expectations agreed upon both ways and in writing before you do anything. That goes both ways, too. Let the employer know if you intend to be temporary, but it may work out that they're decent and you like the work. Like I said I loved the work, just had serious management issues.

As far as taking gunsmithing courses, I've heard mixed reviews from shop owners. I'd say the bulk of them almost prefer machinists & tool makers to school taught gunsmiths. The courses will give you a LOT of gun-specific information though. And a lot of things that machining courses wouldn't get to, springs, wood working, checkering, finishing, etc... Much of it you may never need to use ever again-- I think most of them are all-encompassing pistol, shotgun, rifle.

MOST of that information is also on Youtube for free, but the quality of material varies wildly on YT.

 

[pewpewfever]

I think there is a huge amount of competition in the rifle sector, especially ARs and PRS style bolt guns. But there seems to be a great need for more cowboy gun smiths. If you haven’t tried cowboy action shooting, maybe consider attending a match and see if it turns out to be interesting to you. You may develop more interest in revolvers and shotguns.

 

[MTS308]

Guys I really appreciate all the input. It has helped put things in perspective. The route I'm leaning towards now is buy the lathe/mill and work on my own personal projects for experience and then if it's a possibility open up a shop later on.
For the college tuition cost I can buy a good lathe and mill and have money left over.

I think there is a huge amount of competition in the rifle sector, especially ARs and PRS style bolt guns. But there seems to be a great need for more cowboy gun smiths. If you haven’t tried cowboy action shooting, maybe consider attending a match and see if it turns out to be interesting to you. You may develop more interest in revolvers and shotguns.

This being said. I've never been all that interested in cowboy shooting. If I'm not mistaken Rockcastle In park city has a cowboy shoot regularly that I'll have to look into.
My father is nut about 1st gen no conversion ruger Blackhawks and old high wall Winchester rifles. But he hasn't been able to find any gunsmiths in the area that work on them. Particularly rebarreling the high wall rifles. I've watched a few YT videos and the process doesn't look anymore complicated than a r700 barrel change but I'm not positive about that.

 

[_Windrider_]

Guys I really appreciate all the input. It has helped put things in perspective. The route I'm leaning towards now is buy the lathe/mill and work on my own personal projects for experience and then if it's a possibility open up a shop later on.
For the college tuition cost I can buy a good lathe and mill and have money left over.



This being said. I've never been all that interested in cowboy shooting. If I'm not mistaken Rockcastle In park city has a cowboy shoot regularly that I'll have to look into.
My father is nut about 1st gen no conversion ruger Blackhawks and old high wall Winchester rifles. But he hasn't been able to find any gunsmiths in the area that work on them. Particularly rebarreling the high wall rifles. I've watched a few YT videos and the process doesn't look anymore complicated than a r700 barrel change but I'm not positive about that.

There is also Sonoran Desert Institute. Could be done as continuing education since it’s almost entirely online

Sonoran Desert Institute - Accredited Gunsmithing College

WHAT PEOPLE SAY I graduated from the Associates of Science in Firearms Technology back in the summer of 2016. Prior to that, I had the fortune to conduct my 4 week work study at the Sons Of Liberty GunWorks. I really could have not asked for a better opportunity than what was presented to me...

sdi.edu

 

[Supersubes]

I'm not 100% positive what my end goal is at the moment. I enjoy working on rifles but could care less about shotgun or pistol work.
I'm at a point in my career that I can persue the CNC machining and programming and make a lot more money with benefits probably than gunsmithing. Or try my hand at custom rifle work and in doing so get away from the big corporation and standard factory production work.
As of now my job experience is 6.5 years machine shop. 2.5 of which has been operating a 5 axis VMC. I can read minimal gcode mcode but not well enough for programming. I know the basics of manual lathe and mill work but by far am not a expert.
I guess if I was to stay in the CNC business I would do gunsmith work as a hobby or part time second job. But at the moment I don't have the hands on experience for gunsmithing ( truing actions. Precision chambering. Barrel threading.... etc.) I would like to eventually run my own business IF I could make enough money at it to keep my head above water.
So at the moment I'm just seeing what the options are and trying to figure out my best option.

As mentioned, reach out to LRI and see if they’re still filling positions. You’d get everything you could possibly want working at a shop like that.

 

[Ledzep]

You’d get everything you could possibly want working at a shop like that.

Not really. All that glitters is not gold. The customer usually gets great service. I would never recommend working there.

 

[Supersubes]

Not really. All that glitters is not gold. The customer usually gets great service. I would never recommend working there.

Seems like a good place to learn.

 

[Kadams1563]

Why would you want to be a gunsmith? The money in the gun world go to shop owners not employees.

 

[antithesis]

I have a personal in at a 9 figure per year machine shop. The owner has absorbed 2 companies that I know of that were making rifle parts. Last I heard there was another being considered. They buy the machines and the people and kill the products. Owner says there is no money in it even with things moving to CNC. They have only a small amount of lathe/manual machines left and I think they keep them because they have a guy that can run them.

As for CNC operators and programmers, he cannot find enough good people to hire. For that matter he has been out of room for a while, and it is a frigging monster of a shop. I say if you know the inner workings and want to run your own shop, get a business degree to learn how to run that side of the house and make all kinds of stuff. Just think of all the cool gun parts you can make with the spare time that you won't have.

 

[THEIS]

Why would you want to be a gunsmith? The money in the gun world go to shop owners not employees.

Hi,

As in every business genre in the world pretty much. But so does the building/facility cost, machine cost, tooling, taxes, insurance, payroll, license fees, regulation/registration fees, vendor invoices, liabilities, etc etc etc

Employee doesn't cover cost of this item when they break it...shop owner does.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[MTS308]

Hi,

As in every business genre in the world pretty much. But so does the building/facility cost, machine cost, tooling, taxes, insurance, payroll, license fees, regulation/registration fees, vendor invoices, liabilities, etc etc etc

Employee doesn't cover cost of this item when they break it...shop owner does.
View attachment 7136014


Sincerely,
Theis

Exactly. We use renishaw probes in most of our vmc machines and they are not cheap. I've never crashed one but have come really close a time or too. But it's like they say " if you have .001 clearance. You've got a inch". ?

 

[1moaoff]

Hi,

As in every business genre in the world pretty much. But so does the building/facility cost, machine cost, tooling, taxes, insurance, payroll, license fees, regulation/registration fees, vendor invoices, liabilities, etc etc etc

Employee doesn't cover cost of this item when they break it...shop owner does.
View attachment 7136014


Sincerely,
Theis

Why dont employees get that?? I have great people working for me and I am a tool and machine whore. They are constant... employees arent!!

 

[Ledzep]

Seems like a good place to learn.

There are places to learn where you aren't robbed of your time. If a guy is looking to volunteer to learn that's one thing, been there done that. Being told you'll be paid but the employer decides who gets paid and how much with no record of work completed, having employees file as self-employed so the employer skirts taxes, and having a short novel of how shitty a person/worker you are publicly written about you on internet forums after you leave... That's another thing. I put in 13 weeks of over-time work (60-80 hour weeks) for $3200 total after being told I'd get $750-1200 a week. When I asked wtf I was told it was all my fault, a 2nd payment/record method was put in place and completely ignored by c. dixon. This all after a period of about 5 months of part-time no paid OJT to learn the processes. Class A Bullshit.

FWIW the IRS pee pee slapped the taxes stuff into line from what I heard, so at least a guy has that going for him.

Now in for the "Well there's 2 sides to every story" comments....

 

[MTS308]

Why dont employees get that?? I have great people working for me and I am a tool and machine whore. They are constant... employees arent!!

Because most people are stupid. About a year and a half ago a maintenance worker was moving something with a forklift and tipped over the tooling rack for the machine I run. He said quote " it's all right probably about 500$ worth of tools broke." The tooling and engineering guy picked up 6 out of the 50 plus tools looked at the maintenance guy and said these 6 alone are over 2500$. Needless to say the maintenance guy got his ass reemed.

 

[Supersubes]

There are places to learn where you aren't robbed of your time. If a guy is looking to volunteer to learn that's one thing, been there done that. Being told you'll be paid but the employer decides who gets paid and how much with no record of work completed, having employees file as self-employed so the employer skirts taxes, and having a short novel of how shitty a person/worker you are publicly written about you on internet forums after you leave... That's another thing. I put in 13 weeks of over-time work (60-80 hour weeks) for $3200 total after being told I'd get $750-1200 a week. When I asked wtf I was told it was all my fault, a 2nd payment/record method was put in place and completely ignored by c. dixon. This all after a period of about 5 months of part-time no paid OJT to learn the processes. Class A Bullshit.

FWIW the IRS pee pee slapped the taxes stuff into line from what I heard, so at least a guy has that going for him.

Now in for the "Well there's 2 sides to every story" comments....

Wow, never heard any of that before. I know nothing of the inner workings, only what I see here. Sounds like you got a raw deal.

 

[longgunJR]

School is not a bad idea as long as you have reasonable expectations, for example.
School is a great way to get your foot in the door of a machine shop or getting the basic knowledge you need for gunsmiths, real learning happens in the shop and regardless of how talented you are "you can't teach experience".
All this to say that if you gotta pick from an entry level position in a shop or going to school, take the entry position, if you truly desire to learn you'll know more in 3 months working in the shop than you'll ever learn in a 2 year trade school.

 

[dinc3]

Take a week or two of your vacation and take a class at your closest NRA Summer GS School. Years back Lassen was GREAT! Lots of LE and part-time GS taking classes. One 15 year old spent nearly the whole summer there one year, with his dad coming for a couple of weeks throughout the summer and the staff looking after him the rest of the time. That would have been my teenage dream!

The instructors would be able to give you great advice and you would get a good idea of what GS knowledge you need to compliment your machining experience.

Highly recommended. https://gunsmithing.nra.org/find-a-school/

 

[goatboy]

The question of “should I go to school, get a degree and then a job in that field” only has one answer. Work, volunteer, intern in the field first to understand if the degree is worth it. If you like the actual work in the field and the people, then get the degree. But it’s a waste of time and money, not to mention displacing others from a program, to study indifferently and then not engage in the field. The best student is the student hungry for knowledge, which is usually the student who has a real purpose for being there.

To the question of what they teach being “old school”, the old smiths had great ways of working and approaching guns. They were responsible for chemistry and aesthetics. To the extend that CNC replaces and improves hand tasks, get your brain as broadly educated as possible and you will be unbounded by the new tools.

 

[LRV545]

Hey just wanted to throw my opinion in as I am currently attending Colorado School if Trades. I’ve only just started but I’m thoroughly enjoying it so far. The program spans everything from basics where you learn filing, making hand tools, to Lathes, mills , and CNC machining.

It’s a short course(14 months) but from talking to other students farther into the program you gain so much knowledge in that time. It’s expensive at 25000 for the whole program but so far it seems to be worth the money.

You even have the opportunity to work on your own projects on fridays. Most relevant thing to precision rifles that you will learn is from a project rifle class. You take a standard howa 1500 or rem 700 and true the action. Then chamber, thread and mount a new barrel from a blank. I’m using the rifle to learn as much as I can about building a precision rifle and think you would enjoy this too.

Again just my .02 but can recommend it

 

[Primus]

Honestly, there is little to no money in machining and sure as hell gunsmithing.

My recommendation would be to focus on the programing side and start working towards and engineering degree.

A machinist and gunsmith is never going to be paid what they are worth. When you factor in the skills, apprenticeship, tools and experience that goes into it, you would be better off doing just bout everything else.

Electrician or lineman make _150-200k a year here. Down in Cali they are making 250k+.

Both require similar time and experience to become a journeyman and in all honesty machining is much harder and has a smaller margin of error.

Don't be like these old salty 50 year old fucks struggling to make ends meet becuase they liked guns and wanted to make a career out of it.

The LRIs and wealthy independent machinists are a rare breed and the exception, not the rule. If you go in expecting to be that, you will be sorely disapointed.

You already have CNC and programing experience, now leverage that into something that pays well.

 

[Snuby642]

Yea, you can tell there is not much call for good gunsmiths these days.

Thier lead times are only 6-12 months these days.
Market is flooded by competent gunsmiths. Some even do lawns in all thier spare time because they like to cut grass.

Hell the other day there was a guy standing on a busy corner with a sign.

Please help I'm out of work gunsmith.


If you have a passion follow it, if you're good at it will work out.

Working for a corporation can kill your sole.

 

[Primus]

Why is that? What does it take to be a "competent gunsmith"

-Years of proffesional experience or schooling to operate a a baseline level. Most decent gunsmiths have over 20 years of experience that can only be learned by doing.

-Machining experience and tooling. To be a real gunsmith you need to know how to run a lathe /mill and maybe a grinder. These are big, expensive to buy and expensive to opperate machines. This also required years of experience to be profficent enough to make good parts and not amputate yourself in the process.

- capital to pay for building/tooling/stock/overhead costs ect. All this shit is expensive and will be there weather you are making money or not.

- most of those smiths with long backlogs are slow as hell, using the next job to pay for the last one and a few bad months from bankruptcy. Most are shit businessmen and the reason they have a massive backlog is they don't charge enough and don't know how to run a business. They aren't getting rich.

-Im sure Chad makes a nice living but ask him how much blood sweat and tears went into turning LRI into what it is today. Ask him how many years in industry it took to gain the knowledge to be able to apply modern techniques to their current opperations. He is a unicorn.

Gunsmithing is a dead end unless you are 100% all in and willing to go through really bad times ton eek out a living. There are just too many other good jobs that require less stress and are easier on the body and pay way way better.

The only way I would recommend it is start small. Run a side business from home and keep expenses to a minimum and see if you can grow it. Focus on career but you will know in a few years if this is something you can make a living at. Chances are you won't and it will be easier to cut bait.

 

[Snuby642]

Well I guess LRI will just have to do all the gunsmithing from now on.
No room for more talent or competition around these parts.

The op could end up as good as LRI if commited for all we know.
Addmitedly most never will.

I would encurage him to use LRI as a pinical of the craft he seeks.

A good machinist can get work.

Wanting to do your own thing is risky but thank god
some still have balls enough to do so.

 

[Primus]

Are u trolling or really that dense/dumb?

What do you do for a living if I might ask?

How much time you got either running Mills/lathes or getting paid to work on firearms?

If either is no, your opinion is worthless becuase you quite frankly, don't know what your even commenting on.

 

[MTS308]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the input.
Right now I'm thinking gunsmith school is not gonna happen. If I pursue the CNC programming I stand to make a lot more money so it seems to be the smartest thing to do.
I will probably still get my hands on a lathe/mill and just build things for myself.
My interest lies in old school rifles and pistols. Such as original colt 1911 prelock S&w revolvers in pistols and polish blued walnut stocked rifles sporter or varmint. Especially old custom 98 mausers and pre 64 Winchester m70s. Who can say what the future holds in store. When I get my shit together I may end up starting a business just reblueing and color case hardening old rifle. Who knows.

 

[Primus]

Do you have manual experience or just CNC. Lots of one off work would suck ass on a CNC and take 4 times as long to write gcode than throw it a chuck and make a few chips.

 

[MTS308]

Very little manual experience. I can make some things on a lathe or mill. My last project was a Remington 700 bolt disassembly tool that came out really good. The one thing I have no experience with on a lathe is threading. But it's next on my list to learn.

 

[Snuby642]

My limited experience in machines started with manual machines in 1982 and ended in 2016.
Nc g code cnc cad catia from blueprints, no engineering needed except some help with trig st times.

Never did like lathe work much.

Defence work not little mom and pop stuff.

Got bored and went into electronics.

But worked with and around the machinists and rolled up the sleeves at times of need. Many expressed dissatisfaction at never giving a shot at striking out on thier own.

You kind of seem a little premenstrual primus take some meds

 

[Primus]

So you have no experience working proffesionaly on small arms either doing maintaince or repairs? What I expected.

 

[Snuby642]

Does military count?

LMAO

 

[Ledzep]

There's truth in what Primus is saying. Gunsmithing shops all over are shutting down. There's a local machine shop owner I know that used to do gunsmith work on the side and he explained it pretty well...

You get a customer gun in and spend 2 hours BSing with the guy with him explaining the problem. You spend 2-8 hours taking it apart and isolating the problem. You spend another hour or two coming up with a fix, then bill the guy for the 30-60 minutes of machine work and time you spend actually fixing the problem, then spend another hour or two ensuring the problem is fixed. All the while, you're on the hook if any damage happens to the gun while it's in your hands.

That's on the fixing side of things, on the "standardized" work (barreling, threading, bedding, inletting, truing, etc.. in standard sizes) the only way to increase profits is to do more work because the industry pretty much has standard pricing across the different shops. It's $75-125 to thread a muzzle, $250-350 to blueprint, etc.. etc... That's where you get outfits like LRI and some of the other bigger shops. I speak mostly for LRI because I have experience working there, but the name of the game is to automate as much as possible and get as much done as fast as possible without producing an end-product the customer is going to be unhappy with. The margins are still smaller than if you take raw material and make a new product out of it-- by a LOT.

Even when you look at the "success story" of LRI, there's at least 1 employee for every year the business has been open that walked away, mostly on bad terms. It's not all sunshine and roses. Maybe things are straight(er) and square(er) now but it took some people getting run over to get there. I don't know anybody that works there besides Dixon and Kalli. I don't even know anyone that worked there with me that knows anyone that works there now. It's a ton of work, 4-6 people putting in 80 hour weeks regularly-- I worked there over a summer in between engineering classes at the SD School of Mines. I got my degree and I'm making nearly double what I was supposed to be making at LRI-- Literally 6x the rate of what I was actually paid-- 10-12x if you go by the hour...

 

[Snuby642]

One of my favorite machines was a gantry mill. The others didn't like it because I had to redo the drawings from scratch in a cad program then generate code to take to the machine and post g code then tweek that to cut run time.

Some government work could not be put on main servers secure or not and third party software with manual keys also could not be tied in.

The entire shop was 1-2 offs for over 30 years, test programs.

Guns at the moment are a hobby, but things change sometimes.

I will not be working for anyone.
That would suck.