Night Vision Halo N-VIsion Optics
- Thread starter wigwamitus
- Start date
If the through the lens pics produced are actually representative.........wow for the money! Wonder how well the more entry level units perform?
I'm hoping it doesn't have fixed focus like most of their other sights. Might have to look into it a bit more tonight.
I found some prices for their products.
Priced in the same boat as other Quality thermal scopes and monoculars.
I do like that their made in the USA.
SJC
Priced in the same boat as other Quality thermal scopes and monoculars.
I do like that their made in the USA.
SJC
Hi,
Just for my clarity....
When you say "We"....you are meaning that you are with and/or part of N-Vision Optics?
Sincerely,
Theis
So regarding the fixed focus ... keep in mind the similar Trijicons have fixed focus and they did an amazing job of making fixed focus work. Usually fixed focus is a big negative, but I wouldn't give up on the n-vision optics on that front yet ... not until real people (non dealer ... non pro staff) people get some reports back on them.
Also, we have reason to believe these are OASYS core devices (as was the first Atlas) ... so these are going head to head with the trijicons.
So we need to understand the differentiator ... and we hope it is PRICE ... and that's about all that's left that is significant.
I'm being told, by the supply chain, that no pricing announcement until SHOT.
==
Also, we have reason to believe these are OASYS core devices (as was the first Atlas) ... so these are going head to head with the trijicons.
So we need to understand the differentiator ... and we hope it is PRICE ... and that's about all that's left that is significant.
I'm being told, by the supply chain, that no pricing announcement until SHOT.
==
The main differentiator on the technical side is a choice of optics. We use Ge athermalized lenses in both systems and I believe that they deliver better performance compared to alternative used by Trijicon. I believe that our software and user interface are better but this can be subjective. As far as price is concerned, we will offer _very_ attractive prices that will be made public any moment now.
@Max_R some of us were hoping for a new clipon this year ... and it looks like that might get pushed out for next year ... though I can see the logic .. .
year01 - new Atlas spotter
year02 - A pair of new dedicated scopes and another variation on the spotter
year03 - a new clipon
==
But regarding the older TC-50 and TC-50a ... going back to the TC-50 ... the description used to say this clipon was good to support up to 10x on the day scope. But for the TC-50a the description does not give us a hint as to how much magnification is supported from the day scope. Can you comment on how much day scope magnification is supported by the TC-50a ?
There are a number of folks on here who ask about long distance capable thermal clipons ... and the current list of options in that space is very short !!
==
year01 - new Atlas spotter
year02 - A pair of new dedicated scopes and another variation on the spotter
year03 - a new clipon
==
But regarding the older TC-50 and TC-50a ... going back to the TC-50 ... the description used to say this clipon was good to support up to 10x on the day scope. But for the TC-50a the description does not give us a hint as to how much magnification is supported from the day scope. Can you comment on how much day scope magnification is supported by the TC-50a ?
There are a number of folks on here who ask about long distance capable thermal clipons ... and the current list of options in that space is very short !!
==
Just received this via email:
HALO Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 25mm: $5995
HALO-LR Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 50mm: $7495
I'm interested to say the least, but it will take a lot to get me away from Triji. I'm already not liking the push buttons on these compared to the toggle/ turrets.
HALO Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 25mm: $5995
HALO-LR Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 50mm: $7495
I'm interested to say the least, but it will take a lot to get me away from Triji. I'm already not liking the push buttons on these compared to the toggle/ turrets.
Wigwamitus, I can't promise a new clipon a year from now. Making it right on BAE core is hardly possible. Got to have another more flexible core with the sensor that is as good as BAE's or better to make something nice. But we are constantly thinking about it.
TC-50/TC-50A: both support up to 10x magnification. The problem is that they are based on 17um FLIR cores that are very expensive now and we can only build them at a reasonable for large quantity orders. The commercial market for TC50A is non-existent.
TC-50/TC-50A: both support up to 10x magnification. The problem is that they are based on 17um FLIR cores that are very expensive now and we can only build them at a reasonable for large quantity orders. The commercial market for TC50A is non-existent.
@Max_R some of us were hoping for a new clipon this year ... and it looks like that might get pushed out for next year ... though I can see the logic .. .
year01 - new Atlas spotter
year02 - A pair of new dedicated scopes and another variation on the spotter
year03 - a new clipon
==
But regarding the older TC-50 and TC-50a ... going back to the TC-50 ... the description used to say this clipon was good to support up to 10x on the day scope. But for the TC-50a the description does not give us a hint as to how much magnification is supported from the day scope. Can you comment on how much day scope magnification is supported by the TC-50a ?
There are a number of folks on here who ask about long distance capable thermal clipons ... and the current list of options in that space is very short !!
==
Glass-filled Ultem. We've been using it for many years and performance is quite good.
Sorry, just saw this. I had to e-mail for a quote, and you already know Sledge has it.
And just about indistructable I might add. Been using them for many years myslef. Thanks Max! See you at Shot.
Yup, I got response to my request for quote as well ... those came in today for those that asked yesterday ...
Same as sledge's above ^^
HALO Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 25mm: $5995
HALO-LR Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 50mm: $7495
==
Doing a list price comparison ...
So the trijicon "lens sizes" are focal length. So assuming the halo "lens sizes" are also focal length (most of the thermal lens size we see are focal lenth) ... we see the halo 50mm list price matches up with the mk3 35mm price ... and half way between the price for the reap 20mm and the reap 35mms.
Whereas the halo 25mm price matches the hunter 19mm price and is $500 lower than the reap 19mm price. So using focal length as a yard stick, the halo list prices buy you slightly more focal length than the trijicon list prices.
Both seem to have pvs-14 eye pieces.
Both have the same 12 micro oasys cores.
The reap weight range runs 16 to 32 oz
The mk2/3 weight range runs 30 to 37 oz
The halo weight range runs 20 to 28 oz
The reaps have a joystick interface
The mk2/3 have a turret interface
The halos have a button interface (and note most of the military thermals I can think of also have button interface)
The new reaps have a verticle battery compartment (mitigate possible recoil issues with inline battery compartments)
We cannot be sure about the halo batt compartment orientation yet
The mk2/mk3 have 3 batts
The reap2 have 2 batts
The halos have 4 batts
All are fixed focus
The trijicons are metal housings
The halos are polymer
the halos optical magnification ranges are 1.75x to 3.5x
the reaps and mk2/mk3s optical magnification ranges are 1.5x to 4.5x
Intangibles
The trijicons (irds) have been in the market for hum 4+ years ... and while n-vision optics is not a new player in the nv/thermal space, these units, making thermals with oasys cores, is a relatively new activity for n-vision optics.
Trijicons customer service is I think better known to the commercial space than n-vision optics. We know trijicon can response to customer issues.
At least within the mk2/mk3 line, there is an upgrade path from the lowest unit, the mk2 19mm to the highest the mk3 60mm ...
==
As to street pricing, the trijicon street pricing is fairly well known to those who pay attention. The n-vision optics street pricing for these new units is unknown, but based on the Atlas street pricing from last year, the discounts were not huge and availability was not plentiful.
Will n-vision optics be ramping up production this year ?
Will demand drive higher production levels ?
Will demand delay the onset of lower street pricing ? (why offer discounts in the face of demand which exceeds supply) ?
Will there be introductory pricing to "buy" market share away from trijicon ?
==
Well those are some thoughts ... the good news is the n-vision optics seem to be trying to enter the commercial thermal field with a strong line up ... oasys cored thermals with pricing which at least at list levels, seems slightly lower than trijicon pricing.
We await further developments !!!
(And I think it is great sign that an n-vision optics person came to visit with us !!!)
Same as sledge's above ^^
HALO Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 25mm: $5995
HALO-LR Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 50mm: $7495
==
Doing a list price comparison ...
So the trijicon "lens sizes" are focal length. So assuming the halo "lens sizes" are also focal length (most of the thermal lens size we see are focal lenth) ... we see the halo 50mm list price matches up with the mk3 35mm price ... and half way between the price for the reap 20mm and the reap 35mms.
Whereas the halo 25mm price matches the hunter 19mm price and is $500 lower than the reap 19mm price. So using focal length as a yard stick, the halo list prices buy you slightly more focal length than the trijicon list prices.
Both seem to have pvs-14 eye pieces.
Both have the same 12 micro oasys cores.
The reap weight range runs 16 to 32 oz
The mk2/3 weight range runs 30 to 37 oz
The halo weight range runs 20 to 28 oz
The reaps have a joystick interface
The mk2/3 have a turret interface
The halos have a button interface (and note most of the military thermals I can think of also have button interface)
The new reaps have a verticle battery compartment (mitigate possible recoil issues with inline battery compartments)
We cannot be sure about the halo batt compartment orientation yet
The mk2/mk3 have 3 batts
The reap2 have 2 batts
The halos have 4 batts
All are fixed focus
The trijicons are metal housings
The halos are polymer
the halos optical magnification ranges are 1.75x to 3.5x
the reaps and mk2/mk3s optical magnification ranges are 1.5x to 4.5x
Intangibles
The trijicons (irds) have been in the market for hum 4+ years ... and while n-vision optics is not a new player in the nv/thermal space, these units, making thermals with oasys cores, is a relatively new activity for n-vision optics.
Trijicons customer service is I think better known to the commercial space than n-vision optics. We know trijicon can response to customer issues.
At least within the mk2/mk3 line, there is an upgrade path from the lowest unit, the mk2 19mm to the highest the mk3 60mm ...
==
As to street pricing, the trijicon street pricing is fairly well known to those who pay attention. The n-vision optics street pricing for these new units is unknown, but based on the Atlas street pricing from last year, the discounts were not huge and availability was not plentiful.
Will n-vision optics be ramping up production this year ?
Will demand drive higher production levels ?
Will demand delay the onset of lower street pricing ? (why offer discounts in the face of demand which exceeds supply) ?
Will there be introductory pricing to "buy" market share away from trijicon ?
==
Well those are some thoughts ... the good news is the n-vision optics seem to be trying to enter the commercial thermal field with a strong line up ... oasys cored thermals with pricing which at least at list levels, seems slightly lower than trijicon pricing.
We await further developments !!!
(And I think it is great sign that an n-vision optics person came to visit with us !!!)
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I could be wrong, but I don't think the primary concern was destructability
but POI shift due to changes in ambient temperature.
Bessides the obvious in regards to POI/POA, in our line of work, durability is very crucial and everything they build is like a tank.I could be wrong, but I don't think the primary concern was destructability
What about video recording? The binoculars sound like they only have analog video out but the spec sheet for the Halo says:
"Downloadable Photo and Video
Record your HALO experience through full digital photo and video"
"Downloadable Photo and Video
Record your HALO experience through full digital photo and video"
I too appreciate any manufacturer that will come into a forum to discuss their product. I'm also grateful for more competition amongst manufacturers as we the consumers benefit greatly. These scopes appear to be another great option to folks in the thermal market. Time will tell.
Right, having worked at a large plastics manufacturing company for five years, I understand that polymers can be made to any spec and will perform accordingly. Hence, I was not concerned about destructability. However, we have heard concerns, from posters here regarding other manufacturers polymer housing thermals loosing POI due to ambient temperature.
Perhaps that just means the RS-170 port is enabled ? Reading thru the product announcement material, I don't see your question answered.
Thanks for the thorough comparison / contrast of these thermals, as someone in the market for one, I genuinely appreciate your efforts.Yup, I got response to my request for quote as well ... those came in today for those that asked yesterday ...
Same as sledge's above ^^
HALO Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 25mm: $5995
HALO-LR Thermal Scope 12µm 640x480, 50mm: $7495
==
Doing a list price comparison ...
So the trijicon "lens sizes" are focal length. So assuming the halo "lens sizes" are also focal length (most of the thermal lens size we see are focal lenth) ... we see the halo 50mm list price matches up with the mk3 35mm price ... and half way between the price for the reap 20mm and the reap 35mms.
Whereas the halo 25mm price matches the hunter 19mm price and is $500 lower than the reap 19mm price. So using focal length as a yard stick, the halo list prices buy you slightly more focal length than the trijicon list prices.
Both seem to have pvs-14 eye pieces.
Both have the same 12 micro oasys cores.
The reap weight range runs 16 to 32 oz
The mk2/3 weight range runs 30 to 37 oz
The halo weight range runs 20 to 28 oz
The reaps have a joystick interface
The mk2/3 have a turret interface
The halos have a button interface (and note most of the military thermals I can think of also have button interface)
The new reaps have a verticle battery compartment (mitigate possible recoil issues with inline battery compartments)
We cannot be sure about the halo batt compartment orientation yet
The mk2/mk3 have 3 batts
The reap2 have 2 batts
The halos have 4 batts
All are fixed focus
The trijicons are metal housings
The halos are polymer
the halos optical magnification ranges are 1.75x to 3.5x
the reaps and mk2/mk3s optical magnification ranges are 1.5x to 4.5x
Intangibles
The trijicons (irds) have been in the market for hum 4+ years ... and while n-vision optics is not a new player in the nv/thermal space, these units, making thermals with oasys cores, is a relatively new activity for n-vision optics.
Trijicons customer service is I think better known to the commercial space than n-vision optics. We know trijicon can response to customer issues.
At least within the mk2/mk3 line, there is an upgrade path from the lowest unit, the mk2 19mm to the highest the mk3 60mm ...
==
As to street pricing, the trijicon street pricing is fairly well known to those who pay attention. The n-vision optics street pricing for these new units is unknown, but based on the Atlas street pricing from last year, the discounts were not huge and availability was not plentiful.
Will n-vision optics be ramping up production this year ?
Will demand drive higher production levels ?
Will demand delay the onset of lower street pricing ? (why offer discounts in the face of demand which exceeds supply) ?
Will there be introductory pricing to "buy" market share away from trijicon ?
==
Well those are some thoughts ... the good news is the n-vision optics seem to be trying to enter the commercial thermal field with a strong line up ... oasys cored thermals with pricing which at least at list levels, seems slightly lower than trijicon pricing.
We await further developments !!!
(And I think it is great sign that an n-vision optics person came to visit with us !!!)
Wigwamitus, nice comparison. Let me clarify, where appropriate.
Tangibles:
1. Cores are made by BAE Systems and not Oasis. But you are correct, Trijicon uses the same cores and eyepieces as N-Vision's HALOs.
2. HALO/HALO-LR battery orientation: horizontal and perpendicular to the optical axis.
3. HALO/HALO-LR take regular CR123 and rechargeable CR123.
4. Missed important comparison point: HALOs use Germanium lenses. Trijicon uses chalcogenide. In our opinion, the difference is very noticeable and we had to think _really_ hard while picking Ge lenses instead of chalcogenide. To make it as simple as it gets, HALO-LR with non-Ge lens would cost a few hundred $$ less.
Intangibles:
1. Clarification: N-Vision Optics has been in the night vision/thermal imaging space for over 15 years.
2. Clarification: Over the last year, 100% of commercial orders for ATLAS were shipped within one week ARO.
3. N-Vision Optics has a lot of experience ramping up production. It's a way of life on our contracts oriented side of the business. Most of the time we can build systems as fast as we are getting cores and objective lenses. I can't think about a single reason for N-Vision to keep production levels down.
Tangibles:
1. Cores are made by BAE Systems and not Oasis. But you are correct, Trijicon uses the same cores and eyepieces as N-Vision's HALOs.
2. HALO/HALO-LR battery orientation: horizontal and perpendicular to the optical axis.
3. HALO/HALO-LR take regular CR123 and rechargeable CR123.
4. Missed important comparison point: HALOs use Germanium lenses. Trijicon uses chalcogenide. In our opinion, the difference is very noticeable and we had to think _really_ hard while picking Ge lenses instead of chalcogenide. To make it as simple as it gets, HALO-LR with non-Ge lens would cost a few hundred $$ less.
Intangibles:
1. Clarification: N-Vision Optics has been in the night vision/thermal imaging space for over 15 years.
2. Clarification: Over the last year, 100% of commercial orders for ATLAS were shipped within one week ARO.
3. N-Vision Optics has a lot of experience ramping up production. It's a way of life on our contracts oriented side of the business. Most of the time we can build systems as fast as we are getting cores and objective lenses. I can't think about a single reason for N-Vision to keep production levels down.
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How soon after SHOT will these units be availble to retailers? Will you guys be selling the SHOT Demo's?
HALO/HALO-LR/ATLAS: Analog output only for video. I wish we could do better than that (limitations, such as loos of resolution and refresh rate are obvious) but video processing and compression is _very_ computing intensive task. Cost of components to do proper video is nothing, implementation is very standard and simple. The only problem is that video processing eats batteries _very_ fast and we believe that maximizing the battery life is extremely important, at least for some users of our products. It was a judgment call made at the very beginning of the development process.
No internal shutter in HALO/HALO-LR. Have to cover the lens to do NUC. Shutters are a little bit too much of a liability for scopes. Binos/scanners, such as ATLAS, are a different story and they have internal shutters.
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I could be wrong, but I don't think the primary concern was destructability
that is exactly right
Related to the POA/POI shift due to changes in ambient temperature:
For engineering types:
Thermal stability. Let's compare numbers (thermal expansion coefficients):
ULTEM 20% Glass Reinforced: 1.4 x 10-5 in/in-°F
6061 Aluminum Alloy (your typical "aircraft grade aluminum" 1.3 x 10-5 in/in-°F
The difference between Al and this particular plastic is less than 10%. The rest is system design.
For engineering types:
Thermal stability. Let's compare numbers (thermal expansion coefficients):
ULTEM 20% Glass Reinforced: 1.4 x 10-5 in/in-°F
6061 Aluminum Alloy (your typical "aircraft grade aluminum"
1.3 x 10-5 in/in-°FThe difference between Al and this particular plastic is less than 10%. The rest is system design.
Could you expand on what that means? 9 sounds better than 7, if you want a better field of view, right?
Yup, we're talking about pie slices out of a circle ... so a 9 degree slice is larger than a 7 degree slice. With lenses, this is a classical trade-off ... FOV versus magnification. There is no "right answer". It depends on the application. For zooming in on something far away, more magnification is good. For quickly scanning the area around my coop, within 100yds distance, more FOV is good.
You see this same phenomena in variable power day scopes. At 3x you can see a wide area, turn the knob to 18x and you see a small area close up. Same idea for thermals. The mk3 60mm is 4.5x optical magnification and 7 degrees FOV. The HALO-LR is 3.5x magnification at 9 degrees FOV.
In constrast, the IR-Patrol is 1x magnification at 22 degrees FOV.
==
So for me, for around my coop, close in, inside 100yds, FOV is king and I prefer a 1x device. But for scanning out across my pastures and trying to ID a critter at 500yds, magnification is king and I prefer the mk3 60mm for that.
There are some through the eyepiece photos/videos and FOV comparison of two units. You may take a look at this Instagram feed:
https://www.instagram.com/lone_star_boars/
Sorry, I don't know how to repost images from Instagram here.
https://www.instagram.com/lone_star_boars/
Sorry, I don't know how to repost images from Instagram here.
Just to confirm max - these and the atlas will take rechargeable 123s without any kind of adapter right?
HALO and HALO-LR will take rechargeable CR123 without adapters. However, ATLAS (both 50 and 25mm versions) cannot run on rechargeable batteries.
N-Vision Optics will be exhibiting its full line of products at Shot Show. Our booth number is, as always, 20034. Everyone who will be there is invited to visit us and check out HALO/HALO-LR thermal scopes and the rest of the night vision and thermal products. Hope to see you in Vegas!
Here is a halo from the starboard side, showing the battery compartment ...
Here is a white hot, that matches the black hot in the video ...
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