The last several times that I was out shooting I noticed that every time my heart would beat it would move the reticle just a tad. Just like the reticle was pulsating. .. any suggestions on how to eliminate this. And no I'm not over weight!
Heartbeat moves reticle
- Thread starter waveslayer
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Are you shooting with a sling? If so, the position of the sling could be over an artery so that would need to be adjusted. If not, what position are you shooting from? Depending on that you may need to learn to shoot between pulses.
Ever check your blood pressure? Also, check your heart rate (BPM) when you are on the rifle ready to shoot. High blood pressure will causes this.......I know.
Checked. It's very good and heart rate is good as well. I run 3-4 miles a day and ride a bike at least 10 miles a day. Interesting...
Some things that will make a pulse more pronounced are any type of stimulant like caffeine or nicotine, even sugar. When shooting competitively I prefer my stomach to be on the empty side. Heat can also make a pulse bounce your sights a bit more. It sounds like you are in good cardio shape so it may be that you need to practice shooting with a cadence between pulses.
Too much pressure... and probably squeezing too tight and pushing on the stock too hard, what major vein / artery do you think is in your cheek transferring the pulse ?
it's you not the heart beat.
it's you not the heart beat.
Not sure it's a vein at all. I just noticed that every time my heart beat the reticle would move with it. I will try not squeezing so tight and pushing on the stock and see what we get out of it. Thanks
Put a pad on your cheek piece. I'm currently modifying my AICS' cheek piece to be an angled/contoured flat to eliminate the pulse jog I get because of the design of the AICS piece.
Resurrecting an old thread.
I have always shot prone, but the new range is all benches. The old range (where I shot prone) is closed to the public now.
I never noticed my heartbeat before (prone). But on the bench, it's quite pronounced. Unfortunately the bench construction is such that I can't square up to the rear (as is often suggested here). I suspect the heartbeat is being "transmitted" via my chest contact with the bench. I'm not sure.
Any other ideas? Thanks.
I have always shot prone, but the new range is all benches. The old range (where I shot prone) is closed to the public now.
I never noticed my heartbeat before (prone). But on the bench, it's quite pronounced. Unfortunately the bench construction is such that I can't square up to the rear (as is often suggested here). I suspect the heartbeat is being "transmitted" via my chest contact with the bench. I'm not sure.
Any other ideas? Thanks.
You can’t stand up and lean into the bench?
Beat isn’t coming from chest. Butt is likely sitting on the artery in your shoulder.
No. Bench has the cut-outs on both sides. So, the rear is too narrow... elbows go off the bench. Sucks, but that's what I'm dealing with for a local range. It's the only one in the county.
A possibility, since the butt is not in the same place as when prone.
Maybe take a piece of 3/4 plywood and C clamp it to the back to give your elbows some room.
I’m assuming they won’t let you go prone beside the bench?
Not to be a negative Nelly... but, I already pack a LOT of shit to the range... I don't want to add lumber to the equation.
Plus standing and leaning over isn't the same as prone. I don't know that it would be much better than sitting bench-side. They won't let us go prone. They're TALKING about adding some prone positions (by removing those benches). I hope they do! This is a state-operated facility (Florida Wildlife Commission). So, changes (if any) will be likely slow.
If you are making contact with the rifle, you can't eliminate it.....much to the disappointment of target shooters worldwide.
Pulse is something we unfortunately have to deal with.
There are ways to mitigate it.
You'll notice your pulse spikes, then drops, the burbles around for a bit... Then spikes again
My reticle makes a motion that looks like an A
The peak of the A being the peak of my pulse.......that's typically where I like to break my shot, as I find it's more consistent than waiting for the lul and burble of my pulse.
Pulse is something we unfortunately have to deal with.
There are ways to mitigate it.
- Front and rear bags help
- If prone, Rolling so you are more on your side than your stomach helps
- Squared breathing to lower your heart rate helps
You'll notice your pulse spikes, then drops, the burbles around for a bit... Then spikes again
My reticle makes a motion that looks like an A
The peak of the A being the peak of my pulse.......that's typically where I like to break my shot, as I find it's more consistent than waiting for the lul and burble of my pulse.
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I shoot off the silly concrete benches all the time, standing, sitting, kneeling, you only need room for the firing hand elbow.
Nothing says it has to be on top either, if you can brace your forearm with your elbow in the air off the side who GAF?
Left hand just holds the bag and buttstock in place, doesn't need support.
Try shifting your position to sit at like 6:30 of either side to get a little more squared up on the available real estate.
Nothing says it has to be on top either, if you can brace your forearm with your elbow in the air off the side who GAF?
Left hand just holds the bag and buttstock in place, doesn't need support.
Try shifting your position to sit at like 6:30 of either side to get a little more squared up on the available real estate.
Part of the basic fundamentals of shooting. It doesn't matter what your breathing is it doesn't matter what your heart rate is it doesn't matter what your blood pressure is. So long as you do the same thing each and every shot you'll shoot tight groups. (Assuming you don't have problems with gear... For the dicks that want to go yeah but)
Learn to control your breathing learn to control your heart rate and pull the trigger only when that sight picture is right and you'll be good to go. I don't know where this bulshit came about you're not supposed to see your heartbeat. But it's exactly that bullshit.
Learn to control your breathing learn to control your heart rate and pull the trigger only when that sight picture is right and you'll be good to go. I don't know where this bulshit came about you're not supposed to see your heartbeat. But it's exactly that bullshit.
Haha... I never suggested you're "not supposed to see your heartbeat." But, I will say I didn't NOTICE it when I was shooting prone. Of course, breathing (while prone) was noticeable. But, I never really noticed heartbeat moving the reticle.
Now that I'm on a bench (unfortunately), I DO notice it. So, yeah... I'm going to have to sort out how to deal with it and mitigate the effect. I'd rather my heart continue beating.
I was just trying to figure out why the effect (reticle movement) was noticeable at the bench, but not while prone.
That wasn't specifically geared towards you about my comment. I've just heard it a number of times in the Precision community. The old farts have their shot sequence dialed in to where they just don't think about it anymore. But the new guys who don't have much experience can easily get sent down the wrong path.
Seen it at the range at a time or two as well. See a newer guy getting frustrated, packing up to leave after only being there for one cease-fire. When they finally realize the Scopes not affixed to a rigid mount cemented in the ground magically there groups shrink.
What sucks is when you are tracking a target of Interest getting ready to squeeze off the shot in Real Lies that you've held your breath too long... fuck, got to start over..lol.
Something else that helps is realizing your own agitation. When you're struggling with it to all come together, sometimes it's best just to get up walk away and chill for a little bit.
Seen it at the range at a time or two as well. See a newer guy getting frustrated, packing up to leave after only being there for one cease-fire. When they finally realize the Scopes not affixed to a rigid mount cemented in the ground magically there groups shrink.
What sucks is when you are tracking a target of Interest getting ready to squeeze off the shot in Real Lies that you've held your breath too long... fuck, got to start over..lol.
Something else that helps is realizing your own agitation. When you're struggling with it to all come together, sometimes it's best just to get up walk away and chill for a little bit.
If you’re seeing your heartbeat enough to move crosshairs and you didn’t just finish running or moving fast, you’re doing it wrong.
Its “bullshit” because you’re shouldering the rifle incorrectly.
My bench at the range is cut out on both sides as well. I take the bench and rotate it 180 degrees and then put a chair right behind it and that way I have space for both my elbows and I'm square up right behind the rifle. If I'm lazy to move the bench, then I will rotate the bench counter clockwise like 30 degrees.
Very bad drawing -
Very bad drawing -
When you say move your crosshairs, how much movement are we talking about? I notice my heartbeat when I'm in prone. I run my rifle rested on my collar bone as centerline as I can in prone. Running my scope at 30x, I can see a faint little movement when I'm shooting paper at 100 yards. It's enough movement that it can turn a single hole group into a 1/2" group. It's not enough movement that I'm ever worried it's going to be a miss or greater than 1 moa, but it's not like the reticle is purely idle.
I never see my heartbeat when at resting heart rate and setup properly.
If I do see it, I reassess my position or my heart rate/relaxation level. Then it goes away.
In a high stress or just finished moving (or other activity) that gets your HR up, you likely won’t be calm enough to see it as you’ll be more focused on taking a quicker shot or if you do see it, your target is large enough it doesn’t matter.
But if you’re prone, or on a bench, totally relaxed and your HR is causing your groups to move (basically that you can see your reticle moving), something is wrong.
There’s a reason in any class where fundamentals are the main point of focus they talk about:
Straight behind the rifle
Sight picture
Natural point of aim
Breathing
Trigger control
Follow through
In all of the modern classes I have taken (not ones based on a Mil manual written in the 80’s) not a single one has ever addressed heart beat.
Not a single online training video on this site or any other reputable video series (there are several available) talks about heart beat in the reticle. There’s a reason for that.
Straight behind the rifle
Sight picture
Natural point of aim
Breathing
Trigger control
Follow through
In all of the modern classes I have taken (not ones based on a Mil manual written in the 80’s) not a single one has ever addressed heart beat.
Not a single online training video on this site or any other reputable video series (there are several available) talks about heart beat in the reticle. There’s a reason for that.
Haha... stick to your day job (not drawing).
Just kidding... I got the idea.These benches are bolted to the floor.
I've been following all of the videos on SH along with other podcasts. Agree with all the fundamentals and have definitely shrunk my groups by a ton over the last few months, and the bigger benefit was having the recoil straight back and being able to spot the impact. I've never paid attention to the heartbeat as the movement was so miniscule that it didn't matter. And I'm only seeing it when I'm way up in magnification at like 30x. Shooting matches I'm running at 15x and I never notice it.
Exactly what I was thinking, which is why I posted the question.
I promise I'm VERY relaxed behind the rifle. I can go "zen" quite well when on the rifle. So, it must be where I'm shouldering it... or too much pressure on something.... or because I'm leaning on the bench itself... or somethin'. It's got to be something about my position. The only problem is... I can't square up behind the bench, because the cutouts make the back end too narrow for my elbows.
I don’t see it at 27x if I’m set up properly.
What you described with your group size is the equivalent of about .1 mil of movement.
One issue that comes up when HB is talked about. They usually have their optic mounted as low as possible. This causes you to have your head canted more than needed and more pressure on your face than you need.
If you have rings set up to just barely have clearance on optic, jump up a couple height sizes on rings. Your head will be more erect and easier to keep pressure off your cheek.
If you have rings set up to just barely have clearance on optic, jump up a couple height sizes on rings. Your head will be more erect and easier to keep pressure off your cheek.
Holding your breathe, which is fundamentally wrong, and gripping too tight are the main causes.
If you break at the bottom of your natural respiratory pause, you move the lungs away from the heart, you know those two big balloons in you chest.
Usually the shooter has a death grip, on top of holding their breathe, then they see problems like this,
relax, no mind, just shoot the same way you drive your car, relaxed.
If you break at the bottom of your natural respiratory pause, you move the lungs away from the heart, you know those two big balloons in you chest.
Usually the shooter has a death grip, on top of holding their breathe, then they see problems like this,
relax, no mind, just shoot the same way you drive your car, relaxed.
Rifle fit. Something I've seen quite a few people have wrong or simply incomplete. People would be surprised how much a little change makes a huge difference.
If you have high BP, a beta blocker can help reduce your heart rate to enable a bigger gap between beats to squeeze off the shot. I have found using a heavier rifle on a bipod with a bag under the heel helps. I use my left hand to hook the rifle lightly into my shoulder, pressure through the bag (filled with birdseed - it’s slick and doesn’t transmit heartbeat... sand will). Prone, I don’t let my left chest rest on the ground, and bend a knee to enable that. Deathgrips transmit pulse. Light fingertip grips don’t. Anatomically there is no artery between the riflepad and your collarbone. And veins don’t pulse unless you have tricuspid insufficiency. One problem a lot of older shooters develop is tremor. There are several types, and they are not easy to manage unless early in the disease course. As mentioned before, caffeine is not your friend... it causes a higher pulse, blood pressure, and exacerbates intention tremor. Alcohol raises BP, and while helps intention tremor, you shouldn’t be shooting with a BAL. Some Beta blockers help tremor, especially Propranolol, which can be used situationally. I’m not saying competitive shooters should seek these drugs to get an edge, but if your health is impairing your shooting, talk to your doc. And if you see your heartbeat at 35x, crank the dang thing back to 20x and relax.
Most experiencing heartbeat in reticle don’t have the butt properly on their collarbone. They have it in the soft spot below the shoulder/collar junction.
Or gripping too tight.
(if there isn’t some sort of medical issue that is)
Most of it's due to your setup to the rifle and/or your rifle setup as has been pointed out above. Your buttstock isn't resting on your collarbone it's resting to the right and lower than your collarbone, in that soft spot of the "shoulder pocket". Applying too much pressure in this area puts a lot of pressure on the Subclavian artery/Axillary artery. Anatomical variations in the position of this artery can mean that it is slightly more ventral in it's position on some people than on others. This is a big artery, carrying a lot of blood, under a decent amount of pressure, when you apply a bunch of pressure to this artery with the buttstock of the rifle you can feel the pulse from it through your buttstock. Equating to reticle bounce that you're seeing. If you sit in this position long enough you will start to notice your firing hand will get all tingly. You're partially cutting off/reducing the blood supply to your arm/hand so it starts to go "numb". Don't push so hard into your bipod and/or your length of pull is too long requiring you push too hard into the buttstock to achieve proper eye relief, cheek position and firing grip.
High BP wouldn't cause this unless you're pushing >180/>100 and about to have a stroke. Nor would pushing your cheek into the cheekpiece either. There's not a big enough artery/vein/vessel in your cheek with anywhere near enough pressure to cause that.
High BP wouldn't cause this unless you're pushing >180/>100 and about to have a stroke. Nor would pushing your cheek into the cheekpiece either. There's not a big enough artery/vein/vessel in your cheek with anywhere near enough pressure to cause that.
